trunion mounting

[dmr]

I've read many reviews, recommendations and buying guidelines in various WW mags on table saws, but I'm as confused as ever! Trunion mounting seems to be point of interest. How important is it to have a saw with cabinet mounted trunions rather that table mounted? I read that it makes balde adjustments easier, but how much more difficult is it fortable mounted trunions? I know that the higher priced saws are cabinet mounted. For a beginning hobbiest is this a factor at all when deciding on which saw to purchase?

[dmr]

sorry for the double post. I was a little too hasty!:D

[VASandy]

hey dmr! Welcome to the forums. Interesting first topic, too! I have a feeling it'll stir up some interesting comments. :)

For myself, I was considering a Grizzly table saw with a cabinet-mounted trunion before I found the Ridgid 3650. What made my decision was that the trunion on the 3650 seems stable enough, and it's not all that difficult to adjust. What tipped the scale for me was the fence on the 3650. IMO it's a great fence. Accurate, and with the ability to attach things to it easily. In table saws, after the trunion, the fence is critical. I've been very happy with my saw since the day I got it together and setup. For the home handyman, and even for a professional, it's a fine saw.

[BadgerDave]

LOOK OUT SANDY..........there's a stampede of wild Biesemeyers heading your way.:D I, on the other hand, totally agree with you.

dmr, the adjustment issue, where contractor saws are concerned, is a non-issue IMO when talking about the 3650. No contractor style TS is easier to adjust right out of the box than the 3650 is. I can't speak for all contractor style TS's but I believe the 3650 has the easiest blade aligning feature for saws in it's price class.

[RevEd]

I've read many reviews, recommendations and buying guidelines in various WW mags on table saws, but I'm as confused as ever! Trunion mounting seems to be point of interest. How important is it to have a saw with cabinet mounted trunions rather that table mounted? I read that it makes balde adjustments easier, but how much more difficult is it fortable mounted trunions? I know that the higher priced saws are cabinet mounted. For a beginning hobbiest is this a factor at all when deciding on which saw to purchase?

I think the whole idea of the superiority of cabinet mount versus table mount is birthed in bad thinking.

If you think about it a table mount trunion once it is bolted securely to the table in effect the table and trunion combine to be one piece where the cabinet mount has a portion of the cabinet between the trunion and the table.

The problem with contractor/hybrid saw with table mounted trunions is actually two factors one real and one has nothing to do with where the trunion is mounted.

First the real problem - adjustment. Admittedly a table mounted trunion is harder to adjust than a cabinet mounted trunion. However Ridgid has greatly reduced that problem with their innovative trunion adjusting lever. But how bad is the problem anyhow when you figure you might never need to do it and if so once or twice in the life of the saw.

The second problem - heeling (when the back of the blade moves closer or further to the fence when the saw is cranked over to cut a bevel) when the blade is titled to cut a bevel. This is often blamed on table mounted trunions and in fact where the trunion is mounted has nothing to do with the problem. Heeling is seen almost exclusively in Contractor and now some hybreds and by nature contractor saws have table mounted trunions to this is blamed for the reason. However the problem is how the arbor is mounted between the trunions. Most contactor saws use multiply pieces here. One at each end to fit into the trunion and then two steel tubes or bars to span between the trunions and then the arbor carrier.
All these pieces are prone to movement especially twisting forces when the blade is cranked over to a bevel angle. Once the bars get racked they shift in the piece that connects them to the trunion and you have end with the blade heeling. The placement of the trunion has nothing to do with it. Delta use to include instructions in their manual on detecting and correcting heeling but I'm not sure it is there anymore.

Again Ridgid addressed this issue by making the arbor carrier a one piece casting, which is very similar to most cabinet saws. Thus there is nothing to rack and there is no heeling and no problem.

Now there is problem with cabinet saws that nobody but nobody wants to talk about. Cabinet saws were made to be placed and never moved however in many shops the cabinet saw is moved.

With a cabinet mounted trunion the trunion is mounted to cabinet which is rather thin sheet metal, then the table is also mounted to the cabinet these mounting points can be close but some are a few inches apart. In any case there is some movement between the table and trunions due to the cabinet that is between them. This movement might not be much but it is movement.
If you move you cabinet saw and bump it you can cause the rather heavy table to shift slightly and bend the cabinet (remember it is the cabinet is just thin sheet metal) each time this happens the alignment between the blade and table slightly changes.

The designers of contractor saws kenw contractor saws would be moved and bumped around and they knew the problem with cabinet mounted trunions. to prevent this from happening is why they went to the table mount where once the trunions are firmly bolted into place the trunion and table are virtually one solid piece. In fact if you really wanted to insure no movement once the adjustment is made you can drill and pin the trunion to the table.

I'm sold on table mounted trunions and I'm sold on Ridgid's one piece arbor carrier. Now if Ridgid would take that design and build a saw with the motor enclosed for dust control I would jump on it with both feet.

I'm not impressed with any contractor or hybrid saw that uses tubes or bars for an arbor carrier and I wouldn't bother taking on home.

I would only buy a traditional cabinet saw if I was going to place it, adjust it and never move it.
My opinion

[dmr]

Where can I find the specs on this saw?

[dmr]

RevEd thanks for the info. I've been looking at the Hitachi C10FL, because of the enclosed cabinet. I know that this is a Ridgid forum, but was wondering if you were familiar with the Hitachi saw as it is more in line with my budget than with some of the other saws.

[oldslowchevy]

i have seen the hitachi saw at lowes i can not say that i am overly impressed not that does not mean much though, things i like are very smooth blade bevel and ajustment and the enclosed motor and the things i don't like are the fence seems like it could be troublesome though i can not say for sure but the two peice split rail seemed a poor design at best but this could also be the way my lowes put the saw together and the encosed motor. ah the motor you was placed in both like and dislike you say ... well here is why i have seen saw dust choke a motor to the ponit it caught on fire due to being caked in dust and not being able to breath but i like the fact that it is out of the way and now will take up less space and one less thing to bump in to in smaller shops i also dont know if it is dierct drive or belt drive or maybe even gear drive.

[dmr]

Belt driven

[RevEd]

RevEd thanks for the info. I've been looking at the Hitachi C10FL, because of the enclosed cabinet. I know that this is a Ridgid forum, but was wondering if you were familiar with the Hitachi saw as it is more in line with my budget than with some of the other saws.

Actually I have looked at it, here are my impressions. It is very innovative with the bevel angle index designed in the table. The extension side wings are pressed steel. Many will complain they are flimsy but they serve the purpose and you don't have to worry about rust. The casters are not as neat has the herculift system and stick out so they can be a trip hazard. The Hitachi does use a casting for their arbor support so that should eliminate any heeling of the blade. I don't know how easy or hard it would be to adjust the trunions but from what I heard and seen for myself you probably won't have to. I also like the fact that both the height and bevel cranks are on the front of the machine. If you don't have to twist around to crank in some bevel. Important if you want a router table with some sound deadening around it.

Hitachi rates the motor at 3 hp but it pulls 15 amps so it puts it in the actual 1 1/2 to 2 horse power range. From what I hear it has good dust collection. The spec on the saw look good and with a 5 year warrantee on the saw and 2 years on the motor you should be able to find and correct any problems with it before the warrantee runs out.

If I based my opinion on my past experience with Hitachi tools I would have to give it an A+. I have an 3/8 Hitachi corded drill that would twist the guts out most 1/2 drills on the market. It is rugged I have dropped it from far higher places than it should have survive and survive it did. The drill chuck is probably one of the best I have used. I can't say enough good about the drill. Did that same engineering and quality go into the saw I don't know but if it did the saw would be the best.

The biggest problem I have is the fence. It seems flimsy to me. However I have played with it enough to know it does it's job, but it still seems flimsy.I think it is more I just don't like the look of the fence or it's locking handle than any real problem.

I know one guy that felt he needed to reinforce the legs on the saw but he was the only one that I know of that felt that way.

Also things like zero clearance table inserts may be hard to find but I have found I can make them so easily I don't need to buy one.

I don't know if you know it or not but Hitachi also had the full cabinet C10LA which internally is identical to the C10FL but it does come with cast iron extension wings and a different fence. If Hitachi gets the price right this saw will be the one to own. Unfortunately I think the saw is going to be about $200-300 higher.

[oldslowchevy]

seeing that there are now two of us that dont like the fence how much would a fence upgrade cost and would it be worth it??? of should we scrach the whole thing and go with the ridgid?

[dmr]

Thanks again. Very helpful. I too saw the cabinet model, but I'm afraid that it may be more than I can afford at this time. Also I like the casters so that I can easily move it about my one car garage "shop"!

[VASandy]

I move my Ridgid around quite often, actually. If I'm cutting some large sheet goods, I pull it out from the wall a good bit. Otherwise it sits closer to the wall and a little more out of the way. I really like the Herculift. It's easy, the casters work really well (even over sawdust that I inevitablly have....), and it sits back down with ease. The casters never get in the way. The Herculift was another thing that tipped the balance in favor of the Ridgid!!

[hewood]

RevEd thanks for the info. I've been looking at the Hitachi C10FL, because of the enclosed cabinet. I know that this is a Ridgid forum, but was wondering if you were familiar with the Hitachi saw as it is more in line with my budget than with some of the other saws.

HI dmr - From a non-owner of both the saws mentioned in your thread, I think the C10FL falls well short of just about every other saw in the $400-$600 price range. I don't believe this saw is as competitive as most other Hitachi tools. It appears to be capable of cutting wood, but the other brand name choices all seem to have the Hitachi pretty well covered in features for the price. It's fence is dead last in class IMHO, the legs and wings are on the flimsy side, and even the wheel design isn't very efficient...the Herculift puts it to shame. I'd honestly rather pay $45 for a decent aftermarket mobile base than to do 8 actions every time I move and reset the saw. They also fudged the hp rating in a big way...not something commonly done at this level of tools anymore. It's a 15 amp 1.5hp induction motor very much like the others in it's class, but it's rated as a 3hp motor...maybe when struck by lightning it'll eclipse 3hp! :D

I'd stick with offerings from Ridgid (plug for the home forum!), Grizzly, Delta, Craftsman, GI, PM, Jet, Bridgewood, Woodtek, Steel City, or Shop Fox.

[RevEd]

DMR
If you concerned about dust there is a rather nifty thing called the boot which encloses the whole back of your saw in a rather heavy gauge canvass/fabric.
http://store.thesawshop.com/catalogue/product_info.php?cPath=6&products_id=88

One the one I saw (it was home made) the boot went on your saw with velcro type strips around the outside of the back and enclosed the whole back. Another velcro strip down the length allowed you to encircle the belt and seal the enclosure up. More velcro around the belt guard allowed the boot to seal that end.

Since it is fabric, it has enough flex to allow you to crank the saw over to bevel. Then all you would have to do is seal the bottom of your saw and hook a vac up to a hole made in whatever you seal the bottom with.

Since the ridgid has a lower saw guard with a dust port I would either use a y and connect to it and the bottome port or I would but a down facing elbow on the dust port and put my vac port in the bottom directly under the outlet.

[dmr]

Does it interfer with the belt? I believe that I would prefer an enclosed cabinet type saw not only for dust control, but I also dislike the motor hanging off the back. I have a very, very limited space to keep this in my garage. Of the different makes of saws which offer enclosed cabinets similar to the Hitachi without going to a full cabinet model? Priced within reach of course.
I spoke with a Steel City salesperson about their 1.75 hp saw and he tried to talk me into the 3 hp model with the 50" fence for resale value. They also sell a 3 hp with a 30" fence but it runs right at $1000. More than I want to pay.
In regards to the Hitachi, how can they advertise the C10FL as a 3 hp motor if it isn't? They also give the same 3 hp reading to their new cabinet saw, the C10LA. Oversite or intentional?
Sorry to be so long winded.

[RevEd]

Does it interfer with the belt? I believe that I would prefer an enclosed cabinet type saw not only for dust control, but I also dislike the motor hanging off the back. I have a very, very limited space to keep this in my garage. Of the different makes of saws which offer enclosed cabinets similar to the Hitachi without going to a full cabinet model? Priced within reach of course.
I spoke with a Steel City salesperson about their 1.75 hp saw and he tried to talk me into the 3 hp model with the 50" fence for resale value. They also sell a 3 hp with a 30" fence but it runs right at $1000. More than I want to pay.
In regards to the Hitachi, how can they advertise the C10FL as a 3 hp motor if it isn't? They also give the same 3 hp reading to their new cabinet saw, the C10LA. Oversite or intentional?
Sorry to be so long winded.


Sorry I didn't get back sooner but I was out of town.

As for the Steel City saw be careful remember a good salesman will always try to ungrade you. There are thousands of saws and other tools sitting in garages all over this country that are never used or only used 1/10 of their potential. They are products of salesman ship where the a good salesman succeeded in convincing someone that they needed it.

3 hp and 50 inch fences are nice but if you only need the capability once in a blue moon it is waste of money to buy, unless you subscribe to the nonsense that posessions define the person.

As for the 3hp Hitachi claims what it it talking about is stall horse power versus normal use horsepower. In other words just before the motor stalls it produces 3hp but it were to sustain that output for longer than a few moments it would destroy itself. YOu often see this in shop vacs which claim 5 hp etc. It is marketing nonsense and is basically meaningless.

Usable constant run horsepower is much lower. The best way to gauge actual horsepower is know that a horse power is close to 740 watts. If your using 110 that means 7 amps = 1 hp. Most saw builders manufacture saws to work on common home circuits which are 15 amp circuits. Than means the most usable horsepower is around 1 1/2 to 2 max depending on the motor efficiency. (no motor is 100% efficient) ( don't recall the exact number of watts but use the general rule 7 amps per horsepower max and you won't be to far wrong.)

Since the US market believes bigger is better, marketing always tries to state pumped up horsepower numbers. One of the Air compressor manufactures got caught in this with their compressors and through a class action suit had to offer a rebate to customers. Now most manufactures include a disclosure clause in tiny tiny print explaining that the horsepower they claim is not the normal usable horsepower of the machine.

As for the Hitachi saw. It would be my guess if you used your saw every weekend for the rest of your life, the saw would still be able to be passed down to your children and probably to their children.

I know a production door shop that uses a cheap contractor saw 12 hours a day for 6 days every week and has been doing it for the last 15 years.

[Bob D.]

Ed, can you comment on dmr's other question? The solution looks like it has possibilities but I too would be worried about wrapping the cloth around the belt and doing major damage to the saw and maybe myself. Does the boot have stays in it that hold the shape and keep the cloth from getting caught up in the belt?

Originally Posted by dmr http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67115#post67115)
Does it interfer with the belt?

[hewood]

Does it interfer with the belt? I believe that I would prefer an enclosed cabinet type saw not only for dust control, but I also dislike the motor hanging off the back. I have a very, very limited space to keep this in my garage. Of the different makes of saws which offer enclosed cabinets similar to the Hitachi without going to a full cabinet model? Priced within reach of course.
I spoke with a Steel City salesperson about their 1.75 hp saw and he tried to talk me into the 3 hp model with the 50" fence for resale value. They also sell a 3 hp with a 30" fence but it runs right at $1000. More than I want to pay.
In regards to the Hitachi, how can they advertise the C10FL as a 3 hp motor if it isn't? They also give the same 3 hp reading to their new cabinet saw, the C10LA. Oversite or intentional?
Sorry to be so long winded.

Extra HP is always nice, but not a necessity for a hobby shop. Also note that a true 3hp motor will require 220v. That's why the hybrids and contractor saws are so appealing to hobbyists....they'll run on a standard 20 amp 110v circuit, yet with the right blade, they'll cut anything you need them to.

What Hitachi is doing with the motor rating on that saw is really bordering on unethical, but I'm sure their lawyers have done their homework. It used to be quite commonplace with compressor motors and many of the late 80s, early 90's Craftsman contractor saws, but a lawsuit against the compressor companies has pretty much put an end to the practice with induction motors anyway...universal motors are another story! (I don't believe for a minute that my Ridgid shop vac puts out 6.25hp or that my 15 amp Milwaukee router is really 3.5hp :rolleyes:)

If you're really tight on space but don't want to step down to the portable jobsite class saws, General International has an interesting new offering that appears to be a full size cast iron hybrid on a rolling stowaway type base...if it's not full size it's very close....from what I can glean it appears to be 25" deep, which is 2" shorter than a standard full size, but is ~ 5" deeper than many portables. It's a bit larger than the plastic/aluminum portables that have universal motors, but it sports a belt drive 2hp induction motor that's mounted inside the enclosure. I know nothing about this specific model other than what I've seen online, but GI is typically considered a good quality name with good value. This is a really interesting new category IMHO.....it'll definitely fill a niche for those who struggle accommodating a typical full size saw. FWIW, the actual saw portion of the GI 50-090 appears to be very similar to the Jet 708100 hybrid that mates to a typical open splayed leg stand.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/50090a.html

[RevEd]

Ed, can you comment on dmr's other question? The solution looks like it has possibilities but I too would be worried about wrapping the cloth around the belt and doing major damage to the saw and maybe myself. Does the boot have stays in it that hold the shape and keep the cloth from getting caught up in the belt?

Originally Posted by dmr http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67115#post67115)
Does it interfer with the belt?




Bob
I haven't seen the bag myself but from what I read and heard from others, it is made of fairly stiff canvas like material that keeps it's shape.
As I understand the concept the bag is attached to the back of your saw and then pulling it taut you attach it around the belt guard at the motor. Therefore the fabric is held away from the belt. Now as you crank in bevel the fabric twists but because of frabrics stiffness and how taut it is while the belt may rub on it there is nothing to catch and get wrapped up.

One of the guys on another forum had his wife sew him one up. He hard mounted it to the back of the saw, using screw through strips of wood with the material looped over them. He then used a nylon tie lock strip that held the material firmly on the belt shield. He said he pulled the fabric as tight as he could without having it pull on the motor or warp the shield out of shape. On his even with the blade a 45 the fabric was not touching the belt anywhere. He was very happy with it.

Personally with the lower dust shield on the Ridgid I don't see dust being a big problem. Remember not even cabinet saws catch "all" the dust from cutting. I always end up vaccuming the floor when I finish each day.

Another suggestion would be the "Shark guard" for a Ridgid. These are made by a guy out of Lexan and replace the upper blade guard and splitter. The Shark Guard has a port that you can attach a vac to. That way you would have two ports for the vac. One sucking from below the table and old above. I would think with a fairly good Vac you would catch just about all of the dust.
Ed

[RevEd]

Extra HP is always nice, but not a necessity for a hobby shop. Also note that a true 3hp motor will require 220v. That's why the hybrids and contractor saws are so appealing to hobbyists....they'll run on a standard 20 amp 110v circuit, yet with the right blade, they'll cut anything you need them to.

What Hitachi is doing with the motor rating on that saw is really bordering on unethical, but I'm sure their lawyers have done their homework. It used to be quite commonplace with compressor motors and many of the late 80s, early 90's Craftsman contractor saws, but a lawsuit against the compressor companies has pretty much put an end to the practice with induction motors anyway...universal motors are another story! (I don't believe for a minute that my Ridgid shop vac puts out 6.25hp or that my 15 amp Milwaukee router is really 3.5hp :rolleyes:)

If you're really tight on space but don't want to step down to the portable jobsite class saws, General International has an interesting new offering that appears to be a full size cast iron hybrid on a rolling stowaway type base...if it's not full size it's very close....from what I can glean it appears to be 25" deep, which is 2" shorter than a standard full size, but is ~ 5" deeper than many portables. It's a bit larger than the plastic/aluminum portables that have universal motors, but it sports a belt drive 2hp induction motor that's mounted inside the enclosure. I know nothing about this specific model other than what I've seen online, but GI is typically considered a good quality name with good value. This is a really interesting new category IMHO.....it'll definitely fill a niche for those who struggle accommodating a typical full size saw. FWIW, the actual saw portion of the GI 50-090 appears to be very similar to the Jet 708100 hybrid that mates to a typical open splayed leg stand.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/50090a.html

Now that is a neat saw! Put it in one of those mobile saw centers often featured in Wood magazine or as built by Ryobi BT3.com users along with a router station and you would have a fantastic setup.

I can see it sitting there in a custom made cabinet with plenty of drawers and storage slots for all accessories.