pro press vs sharkbite

[gear junkie]

I'm considering buying a propress but why should I buy a $2200 tool when I can use sharkbites that will fasten dissamilar pipe and require no special tools. I want to buy the propress(I really do) but my gut is telling me to stick with sharkbites. All I need is the right reply(Josh, Plumber Rick?) and I'm sold. Help me make up my mind. I do plan to be in this business for the next 25 years.

[Josh]

I really don't have any experience with sharkbite fittings. I'll have to defer this one to someone who has used both. Plus I would be a bit partial ;)

[PLUMBER RICK]

gear, you will need the propress sooner or later. later the price will be higher:eek:

sharkbite is only avaliabe in 1/2''- 1''. with a limited amout of fittings.

propress is avaliable in 1/2''- 4'' with all sorts of fittings.

the more i use propress, the more inventory i aquire.
just bought $1000. of specialty fittings. 1/2''- 2''.

my local 3 supply houses all stock propress fittings now. only a handfull of smart:D contractors are buying it. the uninformed are the ones left behind;)

rick.

[gear junkie]

Good enough for me Rick. If you say I need it then I need it. Not that my wife will be happy with that reason but she'll live.:D Did you mean that it'll be more expensive later because of the rising cost of copper?

[PLUMBER RICK]

$2200. is a good price for a 320 e 1/2''-2'' new.

the price of copper does affect the fittings, but inflation affects the cost of the machine.

a good used one sells for approx. 1500 on ebay. i would buy new for the extra cost.

now you need a good source for the fittings. 30% off list is an excellant price. there are other companies that are in the fitting business, the price wars should start soon:rolleyes:

rick.

[BILLG]

Plus propress fittings are less expensive. And the true cost of any pipe joining system is in the fittings, and only initially in the tools.

[proplumb]

where i live propress has never taken off. the cost is too high for most guys to swallow and the parts are not readilly avalible. i refuse to use sharkbite fittings for the simple fact that it makes all of us in the trades look like hacks. it takes no skill or knowledge to push things together. think if you paid a guy a couple hundred dollars to come into your home spend 15 minutes there and push fittings on? hell no.

lets try once in a while to show people why they should not go to home depot and do it themselves but should call guys who can solder and show some skill. if any of my tecks used a sharkbite fitting anywhere they could safely use a torch they would be down the road working for a rooter company.

[PLUMBER RICK]

proplumb, since i don't get into pex out here yet. still not fully accepted.

sharkbite is a universal fitting to transition from most all brands of pex, cpvc, copper. with all the different brands of pex, how would you transition with their propriety fittings?

remember that most under sink water filters use a form of a shark bite fitting. only it's made by Jon guess and is plastic.


propress is a great tool to have. but if you didn't want to spend the money on a tool, then a shark bite fitting will save the day on a system that won't drain. i have every form of tool to work with water in the line including freezing equipment, but there is nothing wrong with a shark bite fitting. and yes it still takes skill to install the fitting properly. you will not lose customers because you saved the day with a newer solder less fitting.

rick.

[DuckButter]

Just took a peek...hadn't realized this, but Propress is ridgid owned.
Comparison...
Sharkbite 3/4" coupling around $9, propress $1.80, copper 3/4" coupling $.70

At $2200 for a tool to use Propress, forget it.

Sorry, but I'll stay with the tried, tested and true copper and not throw out the torch just yet.

[Bob D.]

"Sharkbite 3/4" coupling around $9, propress $1.80, copper 3/4" coupling $.70"

But you need to factor in the cost of your torch, solder and flux, flux brushes, rags, and whatever else you use when soldering. Don't forget to refill that tank with MAPP, LP, or whatever your favorite fuel gas is. Agreed the real cost of sweat fittings is still lower, but I don't think it's as big a difference as $1.80 vice $0.70 once you add in all the hidden costs plus the additional labor time to install.

Both have their advantages in certain situations. I prefer to solder whenever possible, but I agree with Rick that a ProPress is certainly a tool you should have in your box.

[DuckButter]

"Sharkbite 3/4" coupling around $9, propress $1.80, copper 3/4" coupling $.70"

But you need to factor in the cost of your torch, solder and flux, flux brushes, rags, and whatever else you use when soldering. Don't forget to refill that tank with MAPP, LP, or whatever your favorite fuel gas is. Agreed the real cost of sweat fittings is still lower, but I don't think it's as big a difference as $1.80 vice $0.70 once you add in all the hidden costs plus the additional labor time to install.

Both have their advantages in certain situations. I prefer to solder whenever possible, but I agree with Rick that a ProPress is certainly a tool you should have in your box.

I forgot to mention...Ive tried the sharkbite...and Elkhart's "tectite".
Not for me...they have a tendency to weep when they get lateral pressure.

Torch refill is about $20, lasts pessimistically 100 fittings lets say...takes about 60 seconds to solder...another 60 to prep/flux....solder is $12 a roll and if memory serves thats about 50' in a roll
(600" divided by .75" per 3/4" seam...divide by 2 again for each fitting @ 400 fittings = $ .3 per fitting for solder)
Tub of flux $8 ...lets say it lasts for 100 fittings @ .8 per fitting.
Rags...well I go through tee shirts like crazy...they wind up in the garbage with or without being torn up and used for soldering.
per fitting = $1.08, and we figure about a minutes more time per fitting @ roughly $75 p/hour divided by 60 = $1.25.
all totalled = $2.02 for each 3/4" copper coupling.
At a difference of .32 per fitting thats a grand total of 6,875 3/4" propress fittings I'd need to have used just to break even on price.
I'm a complete wimp, if I'm not confident in something I worry about it after I leave the job...no price on that.
I'm a wee bit hesitant on anything that uses crimping...just thinking back to the days of PB.

[gear junkie]

Duck, there's a fine line between obessive compulsive and throrough. I think you just crossed it.:D

[DuckButter]

Duck, there's a fine line between obessive compulsive and through. I think you just crossed it.:D

Imagine bidding a contract for hundreds of units in a complex for a repiping job.
Bid too high, the other company gets the job...make one small mistake and that simple $100 loss per unit becomes thousands out of your pocket.
Thats what goes through the mind of any large company's owner...every little thing adds up over large quantites.
Thats why masters have to learn so much about buz math.
And...well, yes I'm compulsive.

[PLUMBER RICK]

duck, you're breaking it down worse than an irs auditor:eek:

the fact is that labor is the big cost. when i can assemble a 1/2''- 4'' fitting in 7 seconds total time to crimp. no torch, cleaning, fluxing, with or without 100% water off or dripping.

in new work, it doesn't take long to see the savings in labor.

in repair work the difference is tremendous. i have no problem making a joint with water still dripping. i've done 4'' and the time savings is out of this world. sure you pay more for the fittings, but the overall cost with labor is a tremendous savings.

when t-drilling came out in the 80's the savings was tremendous then too.

i do charge a fee for for the tool. just like i charge for soldering supplies. the owner makes out by my labor savings.

only a few contractors at my local supply houses buy propress. i'm 1 of the few. and i have done jobs for other plumbers since i own the tool. in fact a local co that builds restaurants, has their own propress and camera now.

i won't give you my money back guarantee like i do on the k-60. i already own 4 propresses. a 5th. one is not in the future:rolleyes: sorry;)

rick.

[DuckButter]

You meant audit. (I don't think Uncle Sam wants me auditioning my act...though it does sound good in the shower.)
I do my own books, so breaking things down to specific details is habit...especially on itemizing my quarterlies.
As for the propress, it's not the price per fitting, it's the tool.
I'm seeing all kinds of "new and improved" ways to connect water now, there are several types of crimps for PEX, as well as the expansion method that I trust the most on baseboard heat (I won't use PEX on high pressure), each requiring a tool thats anywhere from $125-$300 each.
There's all kinds of stuff at HD thats intended to attract the home owner who'd tried soldering and wants something easier. (soldering is damn easy when you know what yer doing)
Rick, it's the same here as far as plumbers that use propress...suppliers are trying to promote it, but we aren't biting...in all honesty it's mainly the cost of that tool, but also the lingering notion that next year propress will be outdated and you'll need a newer $2000 tool.
I know the argument with it being Ridgid...and I'll agree..Ridgid DOESN'T do that...that stay true to something they manufacture so you can get parts for years to come.
I think the major thing plumbers (here at least) are annoyed with is the way major MFG's seem to push products...often appeasing to the plumbers sense of "pride" by intimating we should pay big bucks for quality. (I squandered every dime I had as a kid on Calvin Klein and Izod)
The last time I watched a supply field sales rep try to "sell" propress was a few years ago...my boss (the owner) turned to me after he left and said "He thinks I'm intersted in anything thats expensive, new or bright and shiney...what an insult".
I agreed, the guy was kinda condescending when he wasn't impressed.
I'll tackle this also from a mechanical perspective...look at what happens to a 20 year old gate valve...the rubber seal goes and you have to tighten the packing nut to compensate...after a few times the packing nut won't tighten any more so you have to replace it.
Propress's seal is rubber...I imagine an entire water main put together with rubber for the seals...an issue of mechanical integrity comes to mind.
Ridgid is the end-all, do-all for plumbers as far as integrity is concerned, I just hope they keep that business strategy a priority rather than race for the short-term buck, because without that...they are just another MFG competing for consumer appeal.

[gear junkie]

I'll tackle this also from a mechanical perspective...look at what happens to a 20 year old gate valve...the rubber seal goes and you have to tighten the packing nut to compensate...after a few times the packing nut won't tighten any more so you have to replace it.
Propress's seal is rubber...I imagine an entire water main put together with rubber for the seals...an issue of mechanical integrity comes to mind.


Duck, great counterperspective to Rick's train of thought. Good points from both sides. Let add my two cents. Installed a 12" waterline in Spain. The pipe was push pipe and the gaskets were rubber. Installed a ballfield bathroom in Okinawa. The drain lines were bell and spigot cast iron with rubber gaskets. I'm a project supervisor right now installing storm drains, the pipe is joined by? You guessed it, rubber gaskets. No hub coupling all involve a rubber gasket. Flanged fitting and pipe, the list goes on and on. Rubber come a long way and has proven its dependability.

Your gate valve example has one problem-moving parts. With propress, sharkbite, whatever, there are no moving parts to wear down. I'm not saying one is better than the other but each has it's place. I solder whenever it's feasible and safe. I know you've had a time or two where you wished you had a sharkbite.

[DuckButter]

Duck, great counterperspective to Rick's train of thought. Good points from both sides. Let add my two cents. Installed a 12" waterline in Spain. The pipe was push pipe and the gaskets were rubber. Installed a ballfield bathroom in Okinawa. The drain lines were bell and spigot cast iron with rubber gaskets. I'm a project supervisor right now installing storm drains, the pipe is joined by? You guessed it, rubber gaskets. No hub coupling all involve a rubber gasket. Flanged fitting and pipe, the list goes on and on. Rubber come a long way and has proven its dependability.
I've done countless bell & spigot resilient gasket seals on commercial undergrounds all the way up to 12"...they're excellent...but drainage isn't high pressure..and, it's underground.

Your gate valve example has one problem-moving parts. With propress, sharkbite, whatever, there are no moving parts to wear down. I'm not saying one is better than the other but each has it's place. I solder whenever it's feasible and safe. I know you've had a time or two where you wished you had a sharkbite.
Absolutely without question there have been many, many times working overhead inside a joist bay with the copper barely reachable stuck right against wood, hands burnt and space too tight for gloves, flux everywhere, suddenly finding religion and praying to god I don't start a fire...yup, but it still doesn't stop me from wondering how effective a rubber O-ring is over the long term on a high pressure system in a consealed space.
You are right about the moving parts scenario, but rubber does dry & crack over time...and unfortunately time will be the only test for this debate.
This discussion is good...I might be wrong...one of you guys might pull out a study example that will convince me...and THAT is why I'm here!
I have a question...not to twist the topic any, but...what about CPVC in those "scary" area's when soldering makes you wanna take up a new career?

[PLUMBER RICK]

show me a fire main that is not installed by victaulic?

i even have a vic tool for copper. i use this on greater than 4'' copper now up to 6''.

the gate valve is a packing nut. much different than an o-ring seal that doesn't rely on a friction seal. infact new hose bibbs are now coming with non adjustable packing nuts that use an o-ring to seal.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

DB,

I believe what you may be missing is although they seem to be regular old rubber seals they are not. They are elastomer which has been designed to last the life of the tubing.

Mark

[DuckButter]

show me a fire main that is not installed by victaulic?

i even have a vic tool for copper. i use this on greater than 4'' copper now up to 6''.

the gate valve is a packing nut. much different than an o-ring seal that doesn't rely on a friction seal. infact new hose bibbs are now coming with non adjustable packing nuts that use an o-ring to seal.

rick.

Sipped my mind...and I've done victaulic on both sprinklers and commercial heat, but...the joint is held by bolts.

DB,

I believe what you may be missing is although they seem to be regular old rubber seals they are not. They are elastomer which has been designed to last the life of the tubing.

Mark
NOW you get my attention...hit me with the science and my ears perk.
I think I'll read up on it...find out what the chemical difference is...and how it's been tested...but the crimp thing still bugs me though.

[ToUtahNow]

DB,

I'm like you in that I am hard to convince the easy way is better but I have been proven wrong too many times.

Mark

[Bob D.]

This thread has certainly evolved. It went from "Should I buy a ProPress?" to "what is the composition of the elastomer seals we commonly refer to as rubber and how long will they last?"

The first Q needed an accountant, the second an engineer (well, maybe, see my post in the jokes thread) :)

[DuckButter]

This thread has certainly evolved. It went from "Should I buy a ProPress?" to "what is the composition of the elastomer seals we commonly refer to as rubber and how long will they last?"

The first Q needed an accountant, the second an engineer (well, maybe, see my post in the jokes thread) :)

All relative to a decision prior to purchasing sharkbite or propress & it's accessories.

[westcoastplumber]

These both take all the fun and hard work out of plumbing. I would never use sharkbite, I use propress only when time calls for it.

I had a 4" water main, 150' long to the left, and 100' long to the right, no way to move the pipe up and down, it was on a trac supported 16' in the air, over a dock at a hospital.

It was 2 am when I cut into it, I lined everything up, made my depth marks, sized up my pipe and crimped it, with water coming out. Never could have brazed it, unless I used a jet sweat in 4" and 2 ball valves.

Sharkbite, we'll let the homeowners use them.

[DuckButter]

Sharkbite, we'll let the homeowners use them.


Exactly what I say.
I've tried 'em for baseboard...but would just as soon stick with Wirsbo

[westcoastplumber]

Exactly what I say.
I've tried 'em for baseboard...but would just as soon stick with Wirsbo


In my opinion, I think wirsbo, reahau and propress is where it should have stopped.

Now they have compression ball valves:eek: plastic push on fittings:eek: (I can't remember the name, saw them at the supply house) and sharkbite:eek:

I am only 28, but still an "old timer", I believe solder is the best way, on L Copper, nothing less, and ProPress, if the job really calls for it.

Just my opinion;):cool:

[DuckButter]

lol...a month ago I was at HD grabbing some minor stock...stopped to look at the Shark Bite stuff...
Some guy walks up and says "Those things are fantastic!"
I say "I'll let you put 'em in and be the guinea pig."
He says "I do my own plumbing and I'm telling they work great!...I especially like the Shark Bite valves."
I say "I've seen 'em leak if any torque is put on them, if you put any twisting movement."
He says "You don't know what you're talking about...I been using these for at least a year now."
Suddenly occured to me to shut up n' let'm win....future service calls there.
Who knows...maybe they turn out to be the best thing since the wheel...but I bet they said that about quest and PB too when they came out.

[ChrisConnor]

My question, although off topic, is are the pro press fittings able to be removed without harming the pipe?
How long will the o ring seal last?

[PLUMBER RICK]

My question, although off topic, is are the pro press fittings able to be removed without harming the pipe?
How long will the o ring seal last?


chris, a very simple answer. the propress fitting can be removed prior to crimping. once crimped it can be rotated slightly and re crimped, but never removed.

propress fittings slide onto the pipe like butter. that's why a marker is needed to mark the insertion depth to make sure it didn't slide back prior to crimping.

the o-ring / fitting has a 50 year manufactures warranty.

look at the "viega" website.

rick.

[ChrisConnor]

50 years sounds nice, but there are alot of hollow warranties out there. I don't want a six dollar part to cause an insurance claim and all they do is send me another six dollar part. knowhatimean?:D

[Tieger plumbing]

I am curious how a "plumber" can walk into a building and bring a hack saw and some primmer and glue bought at a big box store and and cut some plastic pipe and install it as waste and vent and soil lines, THEN use a fitting to attach piping that takes the IQ of a 4 year old and then wonder why the public complain when the installer says he wants $75 per hr doing what ANYONE can do.

Here another plumber comes in brings in a snap cutter installs quality ,quiet recyclable cast iron piping possibly pouring a lead joint to connect to an existing hub and solders or brazes the joints and gets to charge a lot more as they are showing a higher caliper of skill level.

Then the can explain the virtues of using a time tested proven system.

Today everything is geared to dummy down the profession and the name of the game is get in and get out and do systems that in reality the home owner or any handyman can install.

One of the other companies I know swear by these fittings as he can hire employees for a lot less then a skilled mechanic would demand.

He pays his "techs" $12 -$14 per hr... I pay my helper $25 per hr and my mechanics $45+

I hope Home centers start giving free classes on plumbing and let the home owners use sharkbite and PVC / CPVC /ABS as this should thin out the herd when the non skilled cannot compete against some kid installing water and waste lines the new easy way with 20 minutes of training

These same installers then wonder why they cannot charge $200 per hr when they are showing how little skill is needed to do the installations.

I am glad my market still has building over 100 years old and Brazing, lead wiping and caulking joints are still required.

[HVAC HAWK]

i want to reply to this one

but not going to do it :D:D

[WillmarJ]

shark bits are ok. yeah they are quick, but i dont think they can beat the PP system. We have 2 320-Es and one 100-B, we use them a lot. but most of all we use the newer style, the all copper ones, and not the brass. Saves a lot of time.

westcoastplumber - you have a great point. You can cut a live (not at full pressure) and still crimp it. no brazing.

[BzAuto05]

I have yet to pick up a Propress. I have heard they have to be recalibrated after 20,000 cycles, is this true? I deal alot with PEX , but those fittings are pretty expensive. As far as Sharkbite stuff , its a great service call generator!!LOLI have been to numerous houses when home owners have tried taking HD employees advice then took the plumber matters into their own hands..Its great..

Bill

[PLUMBER RICK]

I have yet to pick up a Propress. I have heard they have to be recalibrated after 20,000 cycles, is this true? I deal alot with PEX , but those fittings are pretty expensive. As far as Sharkbite stuff , its a great service call generator!!LOLI have been to numerous houses when home owners have tried taking HD employees advice then took the plumber matters into their own hands..Its great..

Bill


bill i have handfull of propress tools (1- 100/ 3-320/ 1-400)and shark bite.

i typically initial and date all of my special repair work. i have yet had to come back to any propress or sharkbite repair.


if the pipe is proprely prepped, reamed, there is no reason it will fail.

rick.

[DuckButter]

I have yet to pick up a Propress. I have heard they have to be recalibrated after 20,000 cycles, is this true? I deal alot with PEX , but those fittings are pretty expensive. As far as Sharkbite stuff , its a great service call generator!!LOLI have been to numerous houses when home owners have tried taking HD employees advice then took the plumber matters into their own hands..Its great..

Bill

Hey Bill, what part of Boston ya from?

[BzAuto05]

Hey Bill, what part of Boston ya from?
Somerville/Cambridge..are you from Boston?

[westcoastplumber]

I have yet to pick up a Propress. I have heard they have to be recalibrated after 20,000 cycles, is this true? I deal alot with PEX , but those fittings are pretty expensive. As far as Sharkbite stuff , its a great service call generator!!LOLI have been to numerous houses when home owners have tried taking HD employees advice then took the plumber matters into their own hands..Its great..

Bill


Propress has it's uses, it is an excellent tool in a pinch, when the job calls for it. I have posted some good cases of this, where a propress cut the time of installation on a rushed project, or when a system can't be drained and it is an emergency timed shut down.

Now, where I think that a propress shouldn't be used, would be to re-pipe a house. I know a guy that does all his re-pipe in pro press. I think it is a waste of skill for most of us (not him, he is probably better of using a simple system like pro press)

The equipment made by ridgid is excellent, it is made well and very durable. The machine does have to be calibrated, but, on the other hand, all machines have to maintained to a degree.

[All Clear Sewer]

if the pipe is proprely prepped, reamed, there is no reason it will fail.

rick.

Other then the PP crushes (Mechanical Joint) the pipe putting a dimple in the pipe causing the water to eat-a-way at the dimple because of the cavitations being cause with-in the pipe and fitting.

the Shark Bite is a Mechanical Joint and will fail in time.

I know you don't want to hear it but it`s all true. How long before they fail?? Who knows???

You just cant replace the old time tested pipe threaded idea ;)

[DuckButter]

Somerville/Cambridge..are you from Boston?

Ole southie boy here gone to the burbs...you undoubtedly know Mr Sillari, done alotta inspections with him in the last year or two.
Alotta old school plumbing in that area.

[drtyhands]

Other then the PP crushes (Mechanical Joint) the pipe putting a dimple in the pipe causing the water to eat-a-way at the dimple because of the cavitations being cause with-in the pipe and fitting.

the Shark Bite is a Mechanical Joint and will fail in time.

I know you don't want to hear it but it`s all true. How long before they fail?? Who knows???

You just cant replace the old time tested pipe threaded idea ;)
Well plumbers,looks like we're cutting out those thinwall copper fittings that we used the tin like solder on and repiping in threaded brass:eek::p:D

[syreja]

Try another method

http://www.t-drill.com/images/T60largethumb_NEW.gif

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Phyton/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg

http://www.t-drill.com/t60.html

[DuckButter]

I'm experiencing a strange subliminal urge to buy a T-drill, it's overwhelming, can't fight the urge.