Fuel use of a tank heater vs. tankless

[Jacob S]

Hello
I know that professionals are huge advocates for tankless water heaters to save energy, and I understand the concept, but have one concern. Currently, I have a 50 gallon water heater which has a 50,000 BTU burner and will turn on when we are using a large quantity of water, but during the day, it rarely turns on. It seems the tank is insulated well and the tank does a good job of keeping the water warm. Replacement tankless units I have looked at use roughly 150-200 BTU’s of gas. Since the tankless unit uses such a large amount of gas, is it really going to save very much? I would think a smaller burner turning on a few times a day will use the same or a little less energy than a much larger burner turning on every time we use hot water. Which one is the best energy saver? Thank you very much!
Jacob

[PLUMBER RICK]

you're right.

a tankless is not going to save enough gas to pay the much higher cost of the unit, installation and upkeep.

my present summer gas bill for 2 of us is approx. $15.00. how much is it going to go down? i still have an oven and dryer that get used.

the installation of a tankless requires a larger gas line and a special stainless steel vent on an indoor installation. you also have to delime theh heater every year to keep up the warranty.

i don't sell them. the #'s are not there.

rick.

[plumberscrack]

Jacob

Check this site out: www.foreverhotwater.com (http://www.foreverhotwater.com)

Take the estimated fuel saving test to see if it's right for you.

Ive installed about 10 or 12 of these Rinnai heaters here on the east coast. Not much of a track record really but I've have no complaints related to the heater. One customer complained of the unit cycling too much but thats because he had a uninsulated recirculating line. I like the idea of heating only the hot water you use but the real advantage to these things is the space saving IMO. Yea you pay more up front for it but the floor space you get back for not having a tank is a strong selling point for us.

Rick, $15 gas bill???:eek:

[Newman]

$15 gas bill ?
you must take only cold showers and have all electric appliances...

[drtyhands]

Jacob

Check this site out: www.foreverhotwater.com (http://www.foreverhotwater.com)

Take the estimated fuel saving test to see if it's right for you.

Ive installed about 10 or 12 of these Rinnai heaters here on the east coast. Not much of a track record really but I've have no complaints related to the heater. One customer complained of the unit cycling too much but thats because he had a uninsulated recirculating line. I like the idea of heating only the hot water you use but the real advantage to these things is the space saving IMO. Yea you pay more up front for it but the floor space you get back for not having a tank is a strong selling point for us.

Rick, $15 gas bill???:eek:

I looked at the web site,this raises a question from me.

Why is the water (earth) warmer in oct.-nov. colder in mar.-apr.?

In our part of the hemisphere I would think warmer aug-sep colder dec.-jan.

[PLUMBER RICK]

$15 gas bill ?
you must take only cold showers and have all electric appliances...

most current gas bill, 29 days 3/14-4/12/07
11 therms $10.85
29 day customer charge $4.77
taxes $2.17

total 17.79:D

worst scenario was feb. 28 therms.

i have a gas water heater, dryer and range/ oven.

no kids:eek:

hose is well insulated both attic, exterior walls and crawl space. dual glazed windows, and double drywall on exterior facing walls.

if it wasn't for joey, i wouldn't need the forced air unit. she is always cold:eek:


ps. my water heater, hoyt, 32,000 btu's is a 40 gallon from 1988.

i have a 1.5'' gas line running under my house, so adding a tank less is no problem and installing outside without a vent is fine.

i never run out of hot water, so why fix it:confused:

a good tank less, noritz, tagagi cost me $850.00. a good 50 gallon cost me $420 and requires very little maintenance

the numbers don't add up for me.

a tankless with a recirc. line is no savings at all. the heater requires a tank to properly circulate. otherwise the heater will have constant water running through it and will wear the heat exchanger fast. it will also cycle more than necessary.

my buddy who has 20 plumbers has only installed a few.

i've fixed more than i will ever install.

these are all facts;)

rick.

[plumberscrack]

I looked at the web site,this raises a question from me.

Why is the water (earth) warmer in oct.-nov. colder in mar.-apr.?

In our part of the hemisphere I would think warmer aug-sep colder dec.-jan.

That's a really off the wall question drtyhands. Did you see that somewhere on the Rinnai website?

[Woussko]

Why not get the advantages of both in one package? Well not quite, but this is what I'm going for when my water heater gets replaced.

http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01606.pdf

[plumberscrack]

Why not get the advantages of both in one package? Well not quite, but this is what I'm going for when my water heater gets replaced.

http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01606.pdf


Sigh...............Only 80% efficient:eek:

Where's the other 20% of gas you paid for?..that's right it went up the chimney:(

Free your mind Woussko, the rest will follow:D

and I thought you Californians were more energy conscious:confused: but less than $1/therm??? I see why tankless won't fly there.

[Woussko]

Not free my mind, but rather I need new "Computer Users" glasses. There's my problem. I don't like the idea of heat up the flue either, but then think of all the old gas fired furnaces still around our are where more heat is wasted than ends up inside the house. Such are still out there in use. :D

On the other hand I have limited space and at times need loads of hot water all at once. Such a water heater as posted will give me the hot water wanted. Sometimes we just can't have it all. :(

I bet you will like these better. So I can't have quite so much water per hour. I can live with one of these and save some $$$ on fuel.
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01506.pdf

If anyone thinks I'll allow a "Power Vent" YUPIE water heater in my place, think again. They are nothing but trouble makers. K I S S rules.

Sorry for blasting off, but I had to get it out. Now it's time to go walk the hounds. Awww We are blessed today in the Mid Atlantic with a very nice weekend. Time to enjoy it. Oh yea

[drtyhands]

That's a really off the wall question drtyhands. Did you see that somewhere on the Rinnai website?
YES,

Because of the heaters ability to heat gallons per minute at degrees of rise.

[plumberscrack]

On the other hand I have limited space and at times need loads of hot water all at once. Such a water heater as posted will give me the hot water wanted. Sometimes we just can't have it all. :(

I bet you will like these better. So I can't have quite so much water per hour. I can live with one of these and save some $$$ on fuel.
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01506.pdf

K I S S rules.


Limited space??? loads of hot water needed???.... Rinnai!

A.O.Smith highest efficiency heater has an energy factor of .63?...not impressed

KISS rules???...lol

[Woussko]

Rules of Woussko

Rule 1. Woussko knows nothing about anything and never went to school other than when forced to do so under law.

Rule 2. Woussko is never right about anything, but loves to howl and pretend he knows things, but he does not.

Rule 3. If by some wild chance anyone thinks that Woussko just one time is correct about something, please review rules 1 & 2 again.

Rule 4. Woussko just loves to trash forums until finally he does get the booting. Yes everyone, Woussko needs the boot. Josh, please do the right thing. thanks

[drtyhands]

Limited space??? loads of hot water needed???.... Rinnai!

A.O.Smith highest efficiency heater has an energy factor of .63?...not impressed

KISS rules???...lol

Maybe I could feel more confident about this product if I knew somebody's investment will be protected.

Crack,what type of warranty does your product offer?

Maybe they can back their equipment for ten years so people know where they stand for their $2000 plus investment.

[drtyhands]

Rules of Woussko

Rule 1. Woussko knows nothing about anything and never went to school other than when forced to do so under law.

Rule 2. Woussko is never right about anything, but loves to howl and pretend he knows things, but he does not.

Rule 3. If by some wild chance anyone thinks that Woussko just one time is correct about something, please review rules 1 & 2 again.

Rule 4. Woussko just loves to trash forums until finally he does get the booting. Yes everyone, Woussko needs the boot. Josh, please do the right thing. thanks

EEEASY TURBO______DECAF?:)

[plumberscrack]

Maybe I could feel more confident about this product if I knew somebody's investment will be protected.

Crack,what type of warranty does your product offer?

Maybe they can back their equipment for ten years so people know where they stand for their $2000 plus investment.

12 year heat exchanger
6 year parts
1 year labor
same or better than any other heater manufacturer.

If something goes wrong with it error code tells you exactly what to replace.

EVERY part on the heater can be disassembled and replaced with a phillipshead screwdriver....a monkey could repair it

[drtyhands]

12 year heat exchanger
6 year parts
1 year labor
same or better than any other heater manufacturer.

If something goes wrong with it error code tells you exactly what to replace.

EVERY part on the heater can be disassembled and replaced with a phillipshead screwdriver....a monkey could repair it

That's better,now I need to get trained and certified in monkey:p

[Jacob S]

Thanks for all your replies. I always find it interesting how they market these to people by the HUGE savings that will pay for itself when in actuality the payback period is very long.

One other reason I would have a hard time giving up a tank is due to my hot water recirculating system. Is there even an effective method of doing this with a tankless unit?

Thanks again!
Jacob

[plumberscrack]

See page 34 of this installation guide. Shows a piping diagram with circulation.
In this setup I would use the aquastat/timer configuration with the optional 6 gallon storage.

http://www.foreverhotwater.com/pdf/R85I-R53I-io-0505.pdf

Note: circ. line needs to be minimum of 3/4" with 3 gallon/min pump.:eek:

[Jacob S]

cool, thanks!