Hot water heater

[Captleemo]

I bought a new GE water heater at Home Depot last year that is a gas heated 40 gallon model with the 12 year warranty. I installed it myself and it seems to work great and seems real efficient on its use of gas but every once and awhile I hear a phsst noise that I assume is the pressure relief valve letting off a little steam. After reading some other posts I" wondering if I have a bomb waiting to go off. According to the manual a back flow preventer would make it a closed water system which would prevent thermal expansion from bleeding back into the main supply line. As far as I know I don't have a back flow preventer. What could I do to fix this problem.:eek:

[plumberscrack]

Whoa!!! if that heater is making steam you need to shut it down right away and call a professional! tick...tick...tick... BOOM!:eek: :eek:

You here a noise but do you see any water coming from the relief valve discharge pipe?

I'm sure by reading the manual it talks about a thermal expansion tank. Do you have one installed?

It could just be condensation dripping down onto the burner. A common occurance not to be a concern.

[drtyhands]

Captleemo,

Welcome to the forum.

So whatsa captain leemo.Is it like a lame Nemo?

Usually when one installs a regulator to reduce the pressure entering their home,an expansion tank is installed at the water heater.

[ToUtahNow]

I bought a new GE water heater at Home Depot last year that is a gas heated 40 gallon model with the 12 year warranty. I installed it myself and it seems to work great and seems real efficient on its use of gas but every once and awhile I hear a phsst noise that I assume is the pressure relief valve letting off a little steam. After reading some other posts I" wondering if I have a bomb waiting to go off. According to the manual a back flow preventer would make it a closed water system which would prevent thermal expansion from bleeding back into the main supply line. As far as I know I don't have a back flow preventer. What could I do to fix this problem.:eek:

It is possible the noise you are hearing is simply condensation in the vent tube dripping back on to the hot burner.

You do not want to block water from getting back to the main water. Assuming you have a pressure regulator on your main water it should have a built in by-pass which will allow the pressure from thermal expansion to go back into the main water. That feature is in the regulator as a safety so to try and eliminate it would not be smart.

Where does the drain line to your temperature & pressure relief valve terminate that you think you could hear (what typo?) noise from it but not see it?

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

i second what mark said, except for the typo:D

rear= hear.

also, as long as the street pressure is less than your relief valve setting. 150#. then thermal expansion will go back threw a regulator and into the city main.

there are no check valves/ 1 way valve on your system, right:confused:

rick.

[Captleemo]

If I have a pressure regulator I don't know about it. I plumbed up this new water heater just like the old one was plumbed up except I replaced some of the old fittings with new ones. There was no expansion tank for the old one at least I didn't see one. I did call a plumber and told him that I had the temp set at 130 degrees and he said to lower it to 120 degrees and see if that took care of it. I asked him what he thought the city water pressure was and he said about 65 or 70 psi. which surprised me. I didn't think it was that high. Anyways he said to get one of those cooking thermometers and check the temperature of the water coming out of the faucet. I will be getting one of those tomorrow. If I did have a check valve where would it be located. And if I don't have one do I need one.

[Captleemo]

Oh and the relief valve is plumbed over to the inside of the garage wall about 2 feet away and then down the inside of the wall about 5 feet and then through the wall to the outside where it comes out to a pipe 90. Its three quarter inch pipe. I don't see any rust stains on the sidewalk.

[plumberscrack]

Most plumbing codes require that when a new water heater is installed a thermal expansion tank needs to be installed along with it. Its a small bladder tank installed anywhere on the cold water line but most likey near the water heater itself. Your old heater probably didnt have one therefore you didnt install one but you need it.

60-70 lbs is good pressure but not nearly too high. You may not see a check valve. Some are built into the water meter and no you don't need one.

Now back to your relief valve... is it trickling a few drops of water when the heater is fired up or does it dump more than a gallon in a few secs. This will tell you if its a pressure or temp problem. Please please tell me Home Depot sold you a relief valve with that heater!:confused:

[Captleemo]

Yes there is a relief valve on the water heater which I believe the noise is coming from but maybe lowering the temp 10 degrees will help. Will I need to go to a plumbing supply house to get an expansion tank? Or can they be purchased at Lowe's or Home Depot.

[drtyhands]

i second what mark said, except for the typo:D

rear= hear.

also, as long as the street pressure is less than your relief valve setting. 150#. then thermal expansion will go back threw a regulator and into the city main.

there are no check valves/ 1 way valve on your system, right:confused:

rick.

I wouldn't waste time with a tank if it was my house pressure being at 70 lbs max.,even though what p-crk say's is true:)

[PLUMBER RICK]

still havn't siad if the relief valve is discharging water or not? if there is no water being discharged, then it's not a relief valve issue. you still need to check the pressure. there are gauges that have a second needle that will show the highest pressure read. typically at night when the heater reheats.

i would buy a pressure gauge and check the pressure, both high and low.

you might also have a bad relief valve too. if the relief valve is not dripping, then it's not a relief valve issue.

check the pressure and let us know if there is any water dripping from the relief valve. you can also put a cup under the discharge line to catch the water if you're not sure if it drips.

rick.

[Woussko]

Easy to use water pressure gauge.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=73222-18701-0069770&lpage=none

[Captleemo]

I don't think there are any one way valves unless the city put one at the water meter. I don't see any water dripping out of the relief valve discharge line either. I will get a pressure gauge and see just what kind of pressure I'm dealing with. I'm also going to get a thermometer tomorrow and see what temperature the water is with the dial set at 120 degrees. I will keep you all posted as to what I find out. I did find some pictures of a little 5 gallon water heater that blew up and did some serious damage. http://www.safteng.net/Accident%20Photos/Hot%20Water%20heater%20explosion.htm

[plumberscrack]

So it seems you are just wondering about the noises you are hearing supposably coming from your relief valve:confused: They only make noise when they open so if you don't see any water coming out its not the relief valve making the noise.

And that 5 gallon heater explosion will look like a firecracker compaired to what your 40 gallon heater could do:eek:

[Captleemo]

I heard that noise this morning and looked out the door and didn't see any water. I checked on that pressure test gauge and Lowe's doesn't have it in stock but I will call them when they open up and see if they can order me one. That looks like a handy item to have.

[Captleemo]

I just called Lowe's and his computer said they had 11 in stock so I'm off to Loew's to get one.

[Captleemo]

I just went to Lowe's and got that test pressure gauge and it reads about 68 psi. Its got that high pressure needle on it so I will see what it reads when the water is heating. I also checked the water temp with the dial set on 120 degrees and it read 130.6 degrees so I turned down the dial a little more. Apparently whatever the noise is it isn't coming from the pressure relief valve I have a piece of metal flex hose coming from the pressure relief valve that goes down and back up for 180 degree bend where it screws into the rigid drain pipe which is about 6 or 8 inches below the level of the prv. I unscrewed it and it was dryer than a popcorn fart.

[drtyhands]

It is a good thing you are trying to get your temperature down.The hotter the water above 120 degrees, I've heard stated on this forum,really multiplies your rate of tank deterioration over time.

[plumberscrack]

Metal flex hose on relief valve is a BAD idea

[ToUtahNow]

Metal flex hose on relief valve is a BAD idea

But approved and encouraged in some areas.

I would be more concern that it doesn't sound like the drain line is maintaining a positive grade.

Mark

[Captleemo]

Well Ive had the pressure gauge on the drain fitting all afternoon and so far the maximum pressure has been 85psi. I just checked the water temp and it was down to 125 degrees but will keep adjusting it until it gets to 120 degrees. I will take the loop out of the discharge line next weekend but I'm going to keep the pressure test gauge on there all week and keep an eye on it. I sure appreciate all the advice you all have given me. :eek:

[sameian]

Hi,
Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but it seemed the most relevant place. I too recently (2 weeks ago) purchased and installed the GE 40gal 12yr WH. The previous WH was a 10yr old Bradford White mod. MI403T6EN12 that failed. The problem Im having is the T&P valve keeps blowing. Its leaked 3-4 times so far, during the night, 1 of which dumped alot of water (10+ gallons.) I tested the incoming pressure (at outside hose and at water heater,) turns out its static rate is 115 psi . I have the gauge at the water heater now and it reads 145, which explains the blowouts. I dont understand why this didnt occur with the old unit (T&P valve seemed to work) . After doing alot of reading the only thing that might explain it is the heat traps/nipples that come out of the new WH, i read they stop water from expanding out, or something like that. But Im not sure if the old WH didnt have them installed also. Is this correct? Id really appreciate any information thatll explain this....really just want to know.

Getting back to the high pressure, would an expansion tank solve the problem or am I better off getting one of those pressure regulators that allow backflow. Or better yet, what do you folks reccommend?

Thanks,
Sam

[ToUtahNow]

Hi,
Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but it seemed the most relevant place. I too recently (2 weeks ago) purchased and installed the GE 40gal 12yr WH. The previous WH was a 10yr old Bradford White mod. MI403T6EN12 that failed. The problem Im having is the T&P valve keeps blowing. Its leaked 3-4 times so far, during the night, 1 of which dumped alot of water (10+ gallons.) I tested the incoming pressure (at outside hose and at water heater,) turns out its static rate is 115 psi . I have the gauge at the water heater now and it reads 145, which explains the blowouts. I dont understand why this didnt occur with the old unit (T&P valve seemed to work) . After doing alot of reading the only thing that might explain it is the heat traps/nipples that come out of the new WH, i read they stop water from expanding out, or something like that. But Im not sure if the old WH didnt have them installed also. Is this correct? Id really appreciate any information thatll explain this....really just want to know.

Getting back to the high pressure, would an expansion tank solve the problem or am I better off getting one of those pressure regulators that allow backflow. Or better yet, what do you folks reccommend?

Thanks,
Sam

In many areas an expansion tank is now required on all new water heaters which will help with the thermal expansion. However, in addition you also need to adjust or replace your pressure regulator on your water coming into your house. Your pressure should not be over 80 psi and I prefer them down around 60 psi.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

One last time. When you heat water, it expands. If there is no place for the expansion to go, it's going to blow the T&P valve. A TXP (thermal expansion tank) is required BY CODE. It needs to be installed on the cold water inlet line somewhere close to the heater if possible. Back in the days before backflow preventers the expansion was rarely a problem, because the expanded water would back up into the city mains and there is enough volume there to take care of it.

[PLUMBER RICK]

your static at 115# is the first problem. as mark stated the incoming pressure should be under 80# and i like 65#:D

what is the high pressure/ street pressure?

although the heater has heat trap nipples. i rather doubt that they are 100% traps. if they are then there would be an issue.

go ahead and get some pressure readings at your laundry valves/ hose bibbs. they should be the same readings as your heater.

if the street pressure is anywhere close to 150# or you have a back flow preventer/ check valve on the cold system/ main. you will also need an expansion tank.

most importantly, the pressure regulator is shot and needs to be replaced.

most regulators do not adjust to 115# so that tells me yours is bad. test the high before the regulator and then test the low side of the regulator. run some water to drop the pressure and watch the pressure gauge as it creeps up.

replace the regulator and verify no check/ or back flow preventer. if so you will need the expansion tank.

rick.

[Masterplumb]

One last time. When you heat water, it expands. If there is no place for the expansion to go, it's going to blow the T&P valve. A TXP (thermal expansion tank) is required BY CODE. It needs to be installed on the cold water inlet line somewhere close to the heater if possible. Back in the days before backflow preventers the expansion was rarely a problem, because the expanded water would back up into the city mains and there is enough volume there to take care of it.

An expansion tank is not required by code here in NY. Why would one be required if the system is not closed?

[NHMaster3015]

An expansion tank is not required by code here in NY. Why would one be required if the system is not closed?

How is the system "open"
I am assuming there is a backflow preventer on the main. That "closes" the system. When all the faucets are closed the expanding hot water has no place to go. So it either weeps out the T&P, or out the BFP vent, or the faucets spit for a second when you first open them, or the toilet spits and gurgles when you flush. Do these things happen all the time, No but they happen often enough. Just for kicks install a pressure gauge in the water line. Check it with the heater cold and then again when it's hot. I've seen as much as a 40lb difference. If his incoming pressure is 115 lbs to start with that 40 lbs is going to make a huge difference. Also the PRV though not a BFP it does have a check in it so that also closes the system.

Are you sure NY does'nt require an expansion tank.? It's in IPC and UPC

[rombo]

ontario doesn't require a bfp so no expansion tank is required yet

[sameian]

Thanks for all the replies....I dont have a pressure regulator on the system right now, at least not one i can see or find. The only thing visible on the line is the water meter. I was wondering if installing a regulator without the backflow check would suffice without adding an expansion tank, or if not, can I get away with one of those smaller tanks, think theyre the 1.5 gallon ones. As for a check valve present, while the pressure was at 145 last night i went upstairs and turned the hot and cold water on for a few seconds to see what happens, the pressure dropped to maybe 140 and slowly started to rise. I guess that means theres a check valve present somehwere? I just checked the bibb just passed the water meter, its at the same reading as the WH right now, 145.The more I look into it the more it seems im going to have to get both the regulator and tank. I still dont understand how the old WH was working under these conditions?

One more issue, my wife mentioned that there was barely any hot water this morning when she went for a shower, no one used a major amount of hot water for at least 2 hrs prior to that. This is the second time this happened.
What could that be?

[Masterplumb]

How is the system "open"
I am assuming there is a backflow preventer on the main. That "closes" the system. When all the faucets are closed the expanding hot water has no place to go. So it either weeps out the T&P, or out the BFP vent, or the faucets spit for a second when you first open them, or the toilet spits and gurgles when you flush. Do these things happen all the time, No but they happen often enough. Just for kicks install a pressure gauge in the water line. Check it with the heater cold and then again when it's hot. I've seen as much as a 40lb difference. If his incoming pressure is 115 lbs to start with that 40 lbs is going to make a huge difference. Also the PRV though not a BFP it does have a check in it so that also closes the system.

Are you sure NY does'nt require an expansion tank.? It's in IPC and UPC

We dont need a b.f.p. on the main. NY is based SOMEWHAT on the UPC but has their own code.