HELP: Unable to reflow the old solder material.

[Wagon Man]

Hi, obviously I'm a noob and your help is much appreciated. I have some soldering / brazing understanding (used to sell these stuffs, learned from product tranings, some were hands on...).

I have a MOST unreliable colleaque at work (a plumber from our maintenance dept) whom I paid him to added a new cold water line (copper) from the garage out to the side yard. It was done just last summer. The joint where the Cu pipe leaves the shut off valve was seperated during winter & he has been breaking his promises for the past 8 weeks to come out to fix his work.

so I think, WTF, I'd just DIY.... went o HD, bought some plumbing solder paste (I think they are easier to handle), a burner, a heat mat, and some flux...

The problem I have is, there is a decent size solder ball left on the pipe which I want to (must I ?) remove before I will re-solder the p[ipe back to the valve.. but no matter how long I heat it up, it refuse to flow. I added soem flux onto it and it still refuse to flow.....

I went to HD last night and bought a pipe cutter, am thinking that I might just cut off a section of the pipe, and replace it with a new pipe.. obviosuly I need to buy a few more copper "connectors" to do the job...

But heck ... it gotta be easier than that! So may I ask the experts here: why couldn;t I reflow the old solder material left on the pipe and re-solder the darn thing together again? What have I doone wrong? or what have I missed? What is the PROPER approach to handing this sitution -- and how-to?

Thanks in advance for your help!

John

[PLUMBER RICK]

is it possible that you were next to standing water in the pipe? was there steam coming off the pipe while attempting this? not sure was this inside of the exisiting valve?

the simplest thig you can do is start fresh and instead of soldering, try out the "shark bite" fittings. my local h.d. just started to stock them a couple of months ago. these are slip together fittings. they come in 1/2''- 1''. they are also removable down the road. dripping water is not a problem since you don't solder them. make sure you use a tubing cutter and debur the inner and outer burr.

rick.

[Wagon Man]

Rick, tks for the suggestion, I don't know what SharkBite is but will pay HD a visit to take a look ... don't care much about "how" as long as it can fix the problem I have :)

BTW, the disconnected point is inside the garage, on the outlet of the shut-off valve, so no water, no steam, nada ... that's why I cannot understand why I could not get it to re-flow. I even have asked the "unreliable" what the heck did he used... was it Ag Brazing alloy? :eek: (of course, he denied....)

Tks again...

[HVAC HAWK]

is it possible that you were next to standing water in the pipe? was there steam coming off the pipe while attempting this? not sure was this inside of the exisiting valve?

the simplest thig you can do is start fresh and instead of soldering, try out the "shark bite" fittings. my local h.d. just started to stock them a couple of months ago. these are slip together fittings. they come in 1/2''- 1''. they are also removable down the road. dripping water is not a problem since you don't solder them. make sure you use a tubing cutter and debur the inner and outer burr.

rick.



you know rick i commend you for your attitude to help some one that asks for help that has never done plumbing before and not jump all of them to call a pro to do the job .http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0173.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

[PIPES]

I'm with you Hawk, bravo Rick.

[Clato]

I'm with you Hawk, bravo Rick.

Right on!!! Rick For President!!!:D


Clato

[PLUMBER RICK]

thanks, but politics will get me in trouble. i'm having a hard enough time in golf:D

got to practice so josh will not embarrass me too bad:eek:

rick.

[Wagon Man]

Other than the SharkBite suggested by Rick (Thanks, Rick) .. can someone comment what are the possible cause(s) why I could not re-flow the old solder?

or can someone share the proper way to remove old solder material left on the pipe (exterior wall).

Tks.

[plumberscrack]

My first guess is that there is water in the pipe like Rick said. But you say no steam was coming out....hmmm. The smallest amout of water will keep it from melting.
My second guess is you didn't have it hot enough. You bought a "burner" what exactly are we talking about here?
If he used silfloss or some sort of silver solder its going to take alot of heat to melt. Acetylene should do the trick. Are you able to get it hot enough to flow your new solder? That ball of solder won't just fall off of there you need to help it off. Try to wipe it with a dry rag when its heated.
Be sure to clean the pipe and fittings thoughly with some sandclothe before fluxing and don't touch it with your bare hands. Even the little bit of oil from your skin can keep it from flowing the solder.

[plumbdog10]

Hi, obviously I'm a noob and your help is much appreciated. I have some soldering / brazing understanding (used to sell these stuffs, learned from product tranings, some were hands on...).

I have a MOST unreliable colleaque at work (a plumber from our maintenance dept) whom I paid him to added a new cold water line (copper) from the garage out to the side yard. It was done just last summer. The joint where the Cu pipe leaves the shut off valve was seperated during winter & he has been breaking his promises for the past 8 weeks to come out to fix his work.

so I think, WTF, I'd just DIY.... went o HD, bought some plumbing solder paste (I think they are easier to handle), a burner, a heat mat, and some flux...

The problem I have is, there is a decent size solder ball left on the pipe which I want to (must I ?) remove before I will re-solder the p[ipe back to the valve.. but no matter how long I heat it up, it refuse to flow. I added soem flux onto it and it still refuse to flow.....

I went to HD last night and bought a pipe cutter, am thinking that I might just cut off a section of the pipe, and replace it with a new pipe.. obviosuly I need to buy a few more copper "connectors" to do the job...

But heck ... it gotta be easier than that! So may I ask the experts here: why couldn;t I reflow the old solder material left on the pipe and re-solder the darn thing together again? What have I doone wrong? or what have I missed? What is the PROPER approach to handing this sitution -- and how-to?

Thanks in advance for your help!

John

Why won't the solder flow, let me count the ways:

1) Water in the pipe (previously mentioned)

2) You don't know what you're doing (don't count this out, as painful as it may be).

3) The first yah-hoo over cooked the fittings. With modern water soluable flux
re-soldering is pretty hard.

You hired a cut rate deal instead of a pro. You're not satisfied. Big suprise. How come none of the guys pleading for help for the homeowner (HVAC Hawk, Clato) aren't helping out?

Guys like you piss me off. You obviously didn't feel capable of doing the job, you hired someone. But you didn't hire a plumber, no there's this guy at work who will do it for half price. Now your not satisfied that he isn't honoring a warrenty. Did you think he would for that price?

Now you're doing it yourself, because you know what you're doing. But your looking for qualified plumbers to give their years of experience to you for free. What free qualified advice are you offering on the internet?

[Bob D.]

SOTSLMAO

















Sitting On The Side (you know the rest)

Sic-em Dog! I'm with you on this one.

[Wagon Man]

WTFU if you have nothing to contribute, Dog!

[drtyhands]

Wagon Man,

Is the system open and drained? is there any water in the joit proximity

We need to know what type of torch you have.

Try a practice solder joint your workbench,what happens.

All fluxes are not created equal,But that comes later.

We can help,what's going on?

This is the forums dog he's sniffing you out.Just get on with the job at hand and don't look him in the eyes:D

[Newman]

Is there a chance you can post a close-up pic?

[plumbdog10]

WTFU if you have nothing to contribute, Dog!

So what forum do I log on for free info from you? You forgot to post it.

[Wagon Man]

So what forum do I log on for free info from you? You forgot to post it.

Depands on what car do you drive...., and which ERP do you use -- if you ever use one.

[plumbdog10]

Depands on what car do you drive...., and which ERP do you use -- if you ever use one.

I own a 2005 Jeep Wrangler, and I want to improve the recepction on my reciever. What forum do I log on to to find your free advice. I don't think it exists.

[Wagon Man]

I own a 2005 Jeep Wrangler, and I want to improve the recepction on my reciever. What forum do I log on to to find your free advice. I don't think it exists.

You are wasting the bandwidth of this board.

If you have nothing to share or don't want to share, then go sit on the sideline and read. Now.... "SIT".

This is my last post responding to your OT.

[Wagon Man]

Tks, Newman & Drtyhands. I will snap some pic later today... been swamped at work lately ... TIA.

BTW, the burner I have is a Benzomatic.

[HVAC HAWK]

Tks, Newman & Drtyhands. I will snap some pic later today... been swamped at work lately ... TIA.

BTW, the burner I have is a Benzomatic.

you keep asking for free help all you want and give the dog a bone and tell him to go eat it some were else

[plumbdog10]

You are wasting the bandwidth of this board.

If you have nothing to share or don't want to share, then go sit on the sideline and read. Now.... "SIT".

This is my last post responding to your OT.

My question is what are you sharing? Or is it only plumbers who give free advice? You don't even list an occupation.

[drtyhands]

My question is what are you sharing? Or is it only plumbers who give free advice? You don't even list an occupation.

Dog,

plumbers are not the only ones who give free advice.floor technicians at the home depot are capable of telling us where the restroom is and they don't charge us anything:o

[apf]

Maybe the guy actually braised it w/ silver alloy and it is not solder

[HVAC HAWK]

well dog if your looking for free advice then here is one

stop bit***ng about giving free advice and do not answer some one that is asking and you will not get upset ;) ;) ;)

[Wagon Man]

Drtyhand and all,

Finally get to taking the pic ... tks for your patience.

As shown in the pic, the seperation (and the remain of the soldering material) is after the shut-off valve. And since the pipe runs upward from there and it has been months since the seperation, there is absolutely no water where I wanted to re-flow the solder ball. (The "drop" at the bottom of the elbow is NOT water-drop, it is actually the solder-ball I wanted to reflow and get rid of.)

All I want is to reflow / to clean up the joint area so that I can re-solder the darn thing again ... but somehow it is so stubborn that no matter I heated it up without flux or with flux (some Patroleum based Pb free plumbing flux), the damn bead shows no sign to start melting... again, the area is bone dry .....

Can someone kind enough to share me the tricks to Re-Flow? Or to point out the mistake(s) in my previous attempts?

My fall back plan is to cut off a section of the old pipe and replace them with new pipe and an elbow... but I prefer not ...

TIA.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/waterpipe2a.JPG

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/waterpipe1a.JPG



Wagon Man,

Is the system open and drained? is there any water in the joit proximity

We need to know what type of torch you have.

Try a practice solder joint your workbench,what happens.

All fluxes are not created equal,But that comes later.

We can help,what's going on?

This is the forums dog he's sniffing you out.Just get on with the job at hand and don't look him in the eyes:D

[HVAC HAWK]

i would heat up the valve until the solder is soft and use a cleaning brush and clean out the old solder . get a new coupling and 90 , new pipe and replace the bottom 12" of the pipe ..
make sure that the valve is clean of solder ,reflux and make sure all the new pipe and fittings are clean . do not touch the clean part at all .

then put together and open something that this pipe is supplying to relive the pressure when soldering . do not over heat the fittings .


good luck

[plumberscrack]

OMG no wonder it blew out the street 90 was only in the fitting about 1/16" of an inch.:eek:

I would be concerned about the integrity of the other plumbing he installed.

Did you heat the fitting and wipe it with a dry cloth??

Bernzomatic torch with Propane or Mapp gas?

~Bill

[Bob D.]

There's water on the other side of the valve right? That's where all the heat is going, it's being sinked into the water. You need to learn how to control and direct the heat of your torch to be able to solder in situations like these. Difficult to explain in words, get someone who knows how to solder over there to give you a hand.

I agree with P-crack, WTF was this bozo thinking when he made up this joint? I'll bet he has a personalized license plate that reads: NOCLUE :)

[Wagon Man]

Bob, all previous efforts were on the elbow, I have not (yet) started on the shut off valve side of things. So, "bone dry" still hold true.

Thanks for the valuable advice, will watch out when I start on the valve. Much appreciated!


There's water on the other side of the valve right? That's where all the heat is going, it's being sinked into the water. You need to learn how to control and direct the heat of your torch to be able to solder in situations like these. Difficult to explain in words, get someone who knows how to solder over there to give you a hand.

I agree with P-crack, WTF was this bozo thinking when he made up this joint? I'll bet he has a personalized license plate that reads: NOCLUE :)

[PLUMBER RICK]

as plumbercrack and hvac has noted. you need to just cut off the bad fitting. trying to resolder only 1 joint of a 90 is not good practice since you've already attempted to heat this up.

based on the fact that the ball is still there and that the fitting was only partially pushed in. replace the 90 and add a coupling with short section if needed. you will have to clean out the valve and wire brush it clean.

looking at your photos, you didn't get it hot enough. the solder should melt in the 700 degree range. the torch you have might not be putting out enough heat of a concentrated flame.

i don't know if you know how to solder, but it's much easier if you watch a pro and then repeat. truthfully it was not hot enough.

try this trick since the fitting is going to be cut off anyways. clean and flux the old 90. then heat and try to melt the new solder. it should melt by touching the pipe with the solder. not using the flame to melt the solder.

there is no problem soldering a valve with water live on the other side. just make sure that there is no trapped air up to the valve. as an apprentice, i once overheated a live valve and as the valve came up to temperature, it melted the solder on the live side since there was an air pocket trapped.

try a bigger or better torch, or a better technique.

rick.

[Wagon Man]

Tks for the valuable input from all of you. Sound slike I cannot avoid cutting the old, well.. guess I'll have to do it anyway as it was not properly done in the first place ... I wouldn't have known without you... I love forums!

HVAC / Rick: can you clarify that if I would just turning on some fauset that should help eliminate trapped air?

plumberscrack: it is a propane torch, and no, I never got to wipe off the solder ball coz I could not re-flow it .. but per Rick's observation, may be I never had heated the fitting (the 90) long enough to reach the required temperature.

I'll keep y'all posted on this journey :D

[BHD]

Some times when you have a small amount of solder like that you can heat it and it will be able to flow (melted), but the surface tension on it will keep it in place, virtually making it look like it is not melted, the drip will not necessarily fall off, there is oxidation on the surface and at times it will hold the solder in place and not show a major color change.

heating and wiping the solder off of it with a dry cloth will pull off the melted solder. (like your trying to clean off crud off of it.) You may need to heat and wipe it a few times to get it off, (it will stay silver in color as it will remain tinned) but your removing the bulk of the solder.
NOTE: that has been said a number of times.


Hold the torch flame on a propane fueled torch about 1/2" to 2" away from the end of the flame, it is hotter there, not in the blue flame. propane torches will work but are minimal, Mapp gas is hotter. (be sure your torch is rated for the use of Mapp fuels)

(put some flux on it and it may help it so you can see when it will flow or silver up as it will clean the surface, but it will not necessarily drip off, or necessary run),

If your intent on reusing the fitting, you will more than likely need to heat both the valve and the fitting, to the past the melting point of solder and while there both hot slide them together, (cleaning both of excess solder well will help). fluxing the fitting before assembly, and may need to do that with a new fitting as well, depending on how much of the old solder you can remove and how tight the clearances are on the pipe fitting and the valve,

[PLUMBER RICK]

Tks for the valuable input from all of you. Sound slike I cannot avoid cutting the old, well.. guess I'll have to do it anyway as it was not properly done in the first place ... I wouldn't have known without you... I love forums!

HVAC / Rick: can you clarify that if I would just turning on some fauset that should help eliminate trapped air?

plumberscrack: it is a propane torch, and no, I never got to wipe off the solder ball coz I could not re-flow it .. but per Rick's observation, may be I never had heated the fitting (the 90) long enough to reach the required temperature.

I'll keep y'all posted on this journey :D

wagon man, this is not your issue. since the valve is next to the main, there is not going to be an air pocket next to the valve. this applies to a longer dead end run. trapped air will be caught in the valve and overheating the valve can cause the pressure side to leak or blow off. once again this is not your issue.

use the rag and torch. it really appears that the fitting never got hot enough from your photos.

you need to replace the 90 and clean the valve out of solder.

truthfully a pro can have this fixed and running in 15 minutes. the valve is your critical joint. it would be a good learning experience for you to watch and learn.

rick.

[wizzy]

Ouch even for the dog this is a new low. Don't worry about the dog John he barks but doesn't bite.

[freddy]

Hope you have someone ready to put out the potential fire with that paper back insulation so close to where your working sounds like you have not turned your tourch up with enough flame to heat fitting. remove old ell and re-solder. You Can do it.:) Freddy

[Bob D.]

Rick wrote: "there is no problem soldering a valve with water live on the other side"

True, if you know what you are doing and where to put the heat. And no matter what anyone says that water on the 'live' side of the valve will draw heat from the joint which you have to compensate for in one way or another. If it doesn't then the pipe (full of water remember) will be at room temperature after you finish soldering the joint on the 'dry' side right? Yeah, sure it will.

I did not say it was impossible. I said it was something you had to learn how to deal with, and cooking the fitting is not the way. This is not a "get a bigger hammer" situation, it's one that requires you know what you are doing. And as I said and Rick agreed with me pretty much I think since he stated the same in his post is to get some professional help in learning how to solder. If you have never had to solder in a situation like this it will frustrate you, but once you have been through it once or twice you should have no problem.

[PLUMBER RICK]

agree:)

a nurse watches a doctor and before you know it, the nurse can do almost the same as the doctor.

let the plumber do the job and you be the apprentice for this one. it will be a very cheep learning experience. plus you insurance co. will like that too. both for fire and flood:eek:

rick.

wagon man what ever happened to the shark bite suggestion i gave you. use a sharkbite male adapter 3/4'' and screw a new 3/4'' threaded ball valve into it. then another 3/4'' male adapter and 3/4'' 90 and possibly a 3/4'' coupling along with 1' of 3/4'' pipe. 15 minutes with no worries and approx. $30 worth of parts. no flame or fire:D

rick.

[Wagon Man]

Bob / Rick, truly appreciate all the subtle warnings ... I full understand your concern on the "live" pipe will be drawing the heat and obviously I do not have the experience to handle the situation.

Two options left (way I see it): I will either get a professional to do the job or go with the "shark bite" solution.

Tks, everyone, you all have been extremely helpful. THANKS!

I'll post final result in due course.:)

[gear junkie]

I know I've asked some not so smart questions in the past (and in the future) but give me a break. 36 replies and 4 pages on how to solder. I love the sharing of information but lets talk about something else.

[Wagon Man]

:rolleyes: Try to add post count?

Go start a new thread if you don't enjoy this topic or you were already an expert on everything and anything.

And yeah......pls don't hijack my thread. Thank you.

I know I've asked some not so smart questions in the past (and in the future) but give me a break. 36 replies and 4 pages on how to solder. I love the sharing of information but lets talk about something else.

[drtyhands]

Wagon Man,
What happens when you try to practice on a few fittings at your work bench?

[Wagon Man]

:) Fighting hard for some free time, but I surely will... case in point.. took me almost 1 week just to snap two pic... : average 10 hrs work day + cars are all past due on fluid change + lawn should have been mowed 3 weeks ago + on-going paving project + 22 months old with serious degree of food allergy.

But it's all fun though.... :D


Wagon Man,
What happens when you try to practice on a few fittings at your work bench?

[plumbdog10]

:rolleyes: Try to add post count?

Go start a new thread if you don't enjoy this topic or you were already an expert on everything and anything.

And yeah......pls don't hijack my thread. Thank you.

There are two reasons why I don't help assbites like you:

1) Some very knowledgeable people attempted to help you, but you could care less.

2) I love to watch guys like you struggle. It makes my day.

[PLUMBER RICK]

dog is back:D

rick.

i would have figured he would have tried our suggestions by now. but i guess the volvo needs a tune up:rolleyes:

[drtyhands]

There are two reasons why I don't help assbites like you:

1) Some very knowledgeable people attempted to help you, but you could care less.

2) I love to watch guys like you struggle. It makes my day.

Plumdog,
In response to wagon mans post "Go start a new thread if you don't enjoy this topic, etc."

I was going to suggest that the poster who took a shot at the thread do something very simple WHEN YOU SEE THE THREAD JUST DON'T READ IT!!!!

[biscuit]

There are two reasons why I don't help assbites like you:

1) Some very knowledgeable people attempted to help you, but you could care less.

2) I love to watch guys like you struggle. It makes my day.


I'm lovin' it, :D :D :D

[plumberscrack]

That's a 5 minute repair. Not a 5 page thread IMO

~Bill

[HVAC HAWK]

if you don't like this subject then don't open it ,go on to some thing different

[PLUMBER RICK]

hawk, you do have to admit that with all the advice we gave him, he would have at least told us earlier that he hasn't had time to try anything. his original question started on 4/25. that's 15 days.

don't mind helping him, but i agree that we spent alot of time and suggestions without the wagon man even trying one:eek:

i was hoping for sucess with the sharkbite, all i got was a time out:D

rick.

[plumbdog10]

if you don't like this subject then don't open it ,go on to some thing different

I'll respond to any thread I want to, even if you post in bold. By the way, purple doesn't scare me.

[Wagon Man]

I apologize for not having a chance to carry out your recommendations, my week days are SHOT (outta question in doing anything) and all I got is weekends to do anything .. and everything.

This pipe run to the side yard is an "luxury item" which I added last year, I already have two other water outlets on the the sides of the house, considering the very long "past due" list, I am yet to work on this broken joint.

No intention to waste your precious time & professional advise, which I truly appreciate. Pls do not think that I start this thread unsincerely......

I will update this thread on the final outcome of this "fix", as well as other trials ...

Once again ... thanks for all the advise and recommmendations ....

I feel sorry for this misleadingly LONG thread, it coulda shorter and have less pages without the noise / distractions from those selfish and/or "implied" professional(s).

[drtyhands]

I apologize for not having a chance to carry out your recommendations, my week days are SHOT (outta question in doing anything) and all I got is weekends to do anything .. and everything.

This pipe run to the side yard is an "luxury item" which I added last year, I already have two other water outlets on the the sides of the house, considering the very long "past due" list, I am yet to work on this broken joint.

No intention to waste your precious time & professional advise, which I truly appreciate. Pls do not think that I start this thread unsincerely......

I will update this thread on the final outcome of this "fix", as well as other trials ...

Once again ... thanks for all the advise and recommmendations ....

I feel sorry for this misleadingly LONG thread, it coulda shorter and have less pages without the noise / distractions from those selfish and/or "implied" professional(s).

Thank-you for the explanation Wagon-Man,I too was starting to wonder "what's-up":)

[Wagon Man]

As promised (although way late) here the update:

I finally called in the profession to resolve my problem, after $140 later, the problem is fixed along with a new outdoor faucet, and some other work with the water closet. This was all done during late Fall.. almost 6 months ago.

Money was well spent considering I don't have the skills/knowledge, nor had the time to learn repairing it while I had a paving and landscaping projects going on last year.

Anyway, tks for all the tips and support :)

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/medium/P1000016.JPG

[toolaholic]

Took Me a while to track this down,but . WAGON HEAD AND DOG ARE THE SAME PERSON!