move kitchen drain line

[MrSoreThumb]

Hi, I'm in the process of finishing my basement and I have a plumbing question. FYI I'm in Ontario, Canada

As you can see in the attached image we have a drain for our kitchen sink and dishwasher in an island cabinet in the above floor draining to a 3" pipe in the middle of the basement. I'd like to reroute this to an existing 3" drain currently servicing a laundry room and 3 piece bathroom (the drain in the foreground).

I'd like to run the kitchen drain and the vent through the floor joists and attach the vent to the drain line just prior to tying in with the existing bathroom/laundry room vent. This way I'd have less to box-in in the middle of the room.

The horizontal span of the reroute would be 10 feet and I'd place in between the floor joints so I can attach drywall on the floor joists.

I'd then cap off the drain in the middle of the room and cement over it flush. I imagine this process would involve taking out enough cement to put a cap on and cover with cement.

I'm not sure what kind of subfloor I'm putting in yet, but if it's raised at all I imagine I can just cap of the drain without breaking concrete.

All the vent and drain lines in the picture are 1 and 1/2 inch or 3 inch.

Is there any concerns with what I'm describing?


Also you will note the trap is under the floor? Any issue with that? There's a cleanout above the floor in the cabinet.

Thanks in advance!

[drtyhands]

MST,
Very nice pictures,worth a thousand words:)
It is obvious that your installers in your area are allowed to do plumbing quite a bit differently than down here in Southern California.
I know I would only raise unecesary issues than what is required in your district.
Your plumbers have it easy up there,our inspectors would be calling us on at least 5 code violations on the island waste and vent.:eek:

Sorry:o

There are a lot of plumbers here that know your needs better than I.

Does the line you are thinking of deleting have a cleanout at it's base,I can't tell:confused:

[MrSoreThumb]

Hi Yes there's a cleanout at the bottom of the stack near the floor.


I'm curious as to what violations are obvious. My house is still under warrantee and now would be the time to bring it forward.

I know the codes may be different however I could let them answer that.

Thanks!

[drtyhands]

MrSoreThumb,
You should consider keeping that cleanout,as it was designed into your system for a reason.

As for your code requirements,I really cannot comment.But if your home was down here,I know of quite a few guys on this forum that would be having a hayday:rolleyes: :)

[bigPipe09]

MST,
Very nice pictures,worth a thousand words:)
It is obvious that your installers in your area are allowed to do plumbing quite a bit differently than down here in Southern California.
I know I would only raise unecesary issues than what is required in your district.
Your plumbers have it easy up there,our inspectors would be calling us on at least 5 code violations on the island waste and vent.:eek:

Sorry:o

There are a lot of plumbers here that know your needs better than I.

Does the line you are thinking of deleting have a cleanout at it's base,I can't tell:confused:

About that island vent/drain picture

Every province in canada conforms to the canadian plumbing code (as part of the canadian building code) The current code being used is the 1995 code, and it states the maximum length of a fixture outlet pipe is 900mm, (about 36") which could explain why someone saw it fit to vent that island sink by dropping the drain below the floor joists, and venting it using a back vent. But there is a bylaw against doing that in almost every major city in canada. You can imagine the stench of food upstream of the p-trap, that is ejected by the dishwasher and gets stuck before the trap.

None of work is condusive with the NPC, and i highly doubt a permit was pulled on this job and it has been inspected. The back vent would need a c/o at every change of direction, not to mention 90 degree elbows are never allowed on a drainage system, except immediately after a toilet. Also that trap arm looks like it barely meets the minimum length before being tied into the vent.

Dirtyhands I highly doubt we have it easier than you guys in so cal, its just a case of afew bad apples making us all look bad. I know there are a lot of different areas of plumbing you have to worry about in cali that we dont here in canada, but we also have a very heavily weighted area in heating (accounts for about half of our mechanical work) and more than a few codes geared against frost, and freezing of mechanical equipment and sytems. In my neck of the woods we're guaranteed -35F every winter, so you can be sure our code book reflects that

[bigPipe09]

Hi, I'm in the process of finishing my basement and I have a plumbing question. FYI I'm in Ontario, Canada

As you can see in the attached image we have a drain for our kitchen sink and dishwasher in an island cabinet in the above floor draining to a 3" pipe in the middle of the basement. I'd like to reroute this to an existing 3" drain currently servicing a laundry room and 3 piece bathroom (the drain in the foreground).

I'd like to run the kitchen drain and the vent through the floor joists and attach the vent to the drain line just prior to tying in with the existing bathroom/laundry room vent. This way I'd have less to box-in in the middle of the room.

The horizontal span of the reroute would be 10 feet and I'd place in between the floor joints so I can attach drywall on the floor joists.

I'd then cap off the drain in the middle of the room and cement over it flush. I imagine this process would involve taking out enough cement to put a cap on and cover with cement.

I'm not sure what kind of subfloor I'm putting in yet, but if it's raised at all I imagine I can just cap of the drain without breaking concrete.

All the vent and drain lines in the picture are 1 and 1/2 inch or 3 inch.

Is there any concerns with what I'm describing?


Also you will note the trap is under the floor? Any issue with that? There's a cleanout above the floor in the cabinet.

Thanks in advance!


The first thing you should take issue with is the existing piping. as you can see from my above post, the island vent is completely wrong. it should be piped so that the trap is IN the kitchen cabinet, and vented so any backups can be easily accessed and cleaned.

If you vent it using the correct island vent method, you can run all the way to your 3" without having tie it in to the vent again. If the sink and DW are vented properly, there is no reason you cant tie in to that stack below your bathroom/laundry connections.

Being that you're an newby to plumbing, this may prove a little difficult, and though I never like suggesting this, you could check with your local authority to see if they are allowing air admittance valves (cheater vents) in situations like this.

Also I am seeing a problem with your stack, it does not have an expansion joint to allow for expansion and contraction of the ground, or slight sinking of the foundation, which is against code, and could give you some problems down the way. Another thing about the 3" stack, im not seeing a cleanout at the base. If in fact there isnt one, you must add a 3"" cleanout within 3m of the base.

Regarding the size of the pipe, 1 1/2" is big enough by code, but i always suggest 2" if there is going to be a dishwasher, and/or food disposal.

Edit: If you are still serious about doing this yourself, i suggest taking a homeowners permit and getting it inspected. I would strongly suggest you have a plumbing inspector have a look at this work and give you a list of infractions, then bring it to the builder. I cannot imagine what else is going on with your plumbing. Not only is this no where close to complying with codes, but you can see by the number of couplings and short pieces used that the workmanship is poor as well. Good luck

[MrSoreThumb]

Okay now I'm a little concerned.

Here are some pic's of the c/o's at the bottom of the stacks.

What should the expansion joint look like? Also I do see a lot of 90 degree angles in the 1.5 inch abs. Mostly at the bottom of a vertical run in the exterior wall. Is this acceptable?

Would the correct island venting be following? Put a p-trap in the drain after the sink, run a island vent loop as high as I can under the cabinet. Create a new vent hole through the floor and tie into to existing vent line (can this go under the steel beam and then back up? - I'd be worried about creating a p-trap in the vent line ). Replace drain line under the floor with two 45 bends (what distance apart is necessary?) and run 10 feet to tie into the bath/laundry stack. Cap off kitchen stack by removing some of the concrete surrounding the stack, cutting below the concrete, putting on a cap (is a test cap suitable? or do I need a another cap?) and cementing over.


Also this got me thinking about the basement rough-in the builder put in. Attached is a photo of it. They did this after we did our framing walk through and noticed to wasn't done in the first place. It looks like the sink is vented and perhaps the shower.... not sure about the toilet. Does this look unusual? There's a bathroom very close it right above so I think they tied the vent into the vent for it (just a sink and toilet).

Thanks again!

[bigPipe09]

Okay now I'm a little concerned.

Here are some pic's of the c/o's at the bottom of the stacks.

What should the expansion joint look like? Also I do see a lot of 90 degree angles in the 1.5 inch abs. Mostly at the bottom of a vertical run in the exterior wall. Is this acceptable?

Would the correct island venting be following? Put a p-trap in the drain after the sink, run a island vent loop as high as I can under the cabinet. Create a new vent hole through the floor and tie into to existing vent line (can this go under the steel beam and then back up? - I'd be worried about creating a p-trap in the vent line ). Replace drain line under the floor with two 45 bends (what distance apart is necessary?) and run 10 feet to tie into the bath/laundry stack. Cap off kitchen stack by removing some of the concrete surrounding the stack, cutting below the concrete, putting on a cap (is a test cap suitable? or do I need a another cap?) and cementing over.


Also this got me thinking about the basement rough-in the builder put in. Attached is a photo of it. They did this after we did our framing walk through and noticed to wasn't done in the first place. It looks like the sink is vented and perhaps the shower.... not sure about the toilet. Does this look unusual? There's a bathroom very close it right above so I think they tied the vent into the vent for it (just a sink and toilet).

Thanks again!


Sorry it took me so long to reply. Ive attatched a picture of what an expansion joint should look like (this one is pvc, yours will abs, and black in color) Ideally, it should be installed vertically. As far as the 90 degree turns, no drainage pipe (that is to say, any pipe that receives water from any drain) is not permitted to have a 90, with the exception of toilets. I would replace those with 2-45 degree bends where possible. They can butted together tight if you need, but the more gradual the turn is, the better.

I also attached the correct method of island venting, some might use two 90s at the top of the loop, with a c/o to clean every change of direction. Regarding the vent pipe, I cant exactly picture what you're saying, but you should no that no vent pipe is permitted to have a depression that water or condensation cannot drain from.

As far as capping off the other line, if you are positive you want it capped off permanently, you can just cut it flush with the floor, stuff some insulation in it, then cement over top. Breaking the concrete around isnt necessary.



http://www.qcsupply.com/ProductImages/61124PCLG.jpg

http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2003/20031001_Ask_Handyman_page001img001_size2.jpg

[bigPipe09]

One more thing...for that vent, the inspector may want to see a cleanout at the last change of direction before going through the floor (on the dry vent portion, not under the sink) Sorry about the size of the picture

[Hondahead]

no drainage pipe (that is to say, any pipe that receives water from any drain) is not permitted to have a 90

Thats not quite how the code reads and it is a bit of a grey area. Clause 2.4.3. of the 1995 NPC reads as follows; A one-quarter bend of 4" or less that has a centre-line radius that is less than the size of the pipe shall not be used to join 2 soil or waste pipes. The arguement is that the term one-quater bend makes reference to a cast iron fitting not plastic. It is generally accepted, here in Alberta anyway, that a 90 can be used when going from horizontal to vertical, on the horizontal for lav turn outs and under a WC. Also, Ontario uses a bastardized version of the NPC which is actually quite different than what we are used to.Just an FYI

That being said, I completly agree with your prior posts and advice to MrSoreThumb.:cool:

[Pipestone Kid]

bigPipe09: Just for my own info, what is the purpose of the cleanout in the vent line? Thanks, Jim

[ToUtahNow]

It seems island venting is the most misunderstood fixture in plumbing. I see more which are installed wrong than right. BigPipe”s photo is a good example of how to install an island fixture. As he pointed out it would need another CO but the rest is spot on.

Another thing I noticed in the OP pictures was the use of the flush-bushing down at the slab level. I do not believe flush bushings should be used at all but I really don’t like them in drain lines. If you consider the flow of the water as it goes through the bushing there is an area immediately downstream of the bushing which is never scoured. This is not as critical in a vertical stack but it is still bad practice.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

bigPipe09: Just for my own info, what is the purpose of the cleanout in the vent line? Thanks, Jim

the purpose of the vent c/o is to ensure that the section of vent pipe that is below the flood level rim of the fixture (+6'') will remain clog free. whenyou get a stoppage in the waste line, waste and debris will plug both the waste and vent line up to the level of the standing water/ fixture overflow level. without a cleanout in the vent riser it would be pretty tuff to clean the vent line.

on a normal non island. the vent line would be vertical for +6'' above the overflow of the fixture. this would typically be self cleaning after the stoppage is cleared throught the sink or trap arm.

all clear:confused:

rick.

[bigPipe09]

Thats not quite how the code reads and it is a bit of a grey area. Clause 2.4.3. of the 1995 NPC reads as follows; A one-quarter bend of 4" or less that has a centre-line radius that is less than the size of the pipe shall not be used to join 2 soil or waste pipes. The arguement is that the term one-quater bend makes reference to a cast iron fitting not plastic. It is generally accepted, here in Alberta anyway, that a 90 can be used when going from horizontal to vertical, on the horizontal for lav turn outs and under a WC. Also, Ontario uses a bastardized version of the NPC which is actually quite different than what we are used to.Just an FYI

That being said, I completly agree with your prior posts and advice to MrSoreThumb.:cool:

maybe its a municipal bylaw then, but under a WC is the only place a 90 bend is allowed. I used a long radius 90 to exit a wall into a kitchen cabinet, and the inspector called me up and made me promise to change it to two 45s before the boarding was up. ToUtahNow, I agree with you about the bushing on a horizontal line, and some inspectors here will only let you reduce 1 pipe size, but theres nothing in the code about it.

[bigPipe09]

P.S. Honda, I am in Alberta too

[Hondahead]

Yah, must be a municipal thing, or a particular inspector, the good old authority having jurisdiction. Have you picked up the 2005 NPC yet? I really hope Alberta doesn't adopt much of it, its really a dumbed down version of the 1995 code. One of the changes is an incease to the max length of a fixture oulet pipe from 36" to 48". The intent is to eliminate island venting altogether and have the trap under the floor for a kitchen sink:rolleyes:

[plumberscrack]

The intent is to eliminate island venting altogether and have the trap under the floor for a kitchen sink:rolleyes:

OMG! No access to the trap? That's just silly.

[bigPipe09]

Its not the fact that you cant access the trap, its that when a dishwasher discharges into the kitchen fixture drain, various foodstuffs will get stuck in the piping that is upstream of the trap, making for a very smelly kitchen. Honda, I have picked it up actually and i cant say i am a fan. Another thing they've changed is now on a 3 piece bathroom wet vent, the toilet MUST be tied in the furthest downstream, which makes bathroom rough ins alot uglier, more time consuming, and more costly. Cleanout sizing has changed too. From what Ive heard from the local big wigs, January '08 will be the date we're supposed to adopt it.

[Hondahead]

From what Ive heard from the local big wigs, January '08 will be the date we're supposed to adopt it.

Municipal Affairs Standata (http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/documents/orders/orders_in_council/2007/607/2007_254.html)

[plumbdog10]

If you based this on the UPC I would agree with Rick that a vent requires a cleanout if it is less than 6" below the flood-level rim. But under the uniform Plumbing Code there is a few more problems. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but I mention this for California plumbers who operate under the UPC.

1) The "foot vent" should be a wye brench fitting (wye and 1/8th bend or comby). The fitting shown is a SanTee.

2) The "foot vent" should have a clean-out where it rises in the wall, because it is a vent not above 6" over the flood level rim.

3) The fitting below the wall on the foot vent is hard to tell weather it is a sweep or 1/4 bend. It should be a sweep. All vent piping below 6' of the flood level rim should be under drainage fittings.

Again, this is based on the UPC. this project was not done under that code, so I am in no way busting down the work, this is for the California guys.

[Crappy days]

Before you do anything, I would get several estimates on the entire plumbing system. Then go back to the builder and see if he will refund you anything. From your pictures I am sure there is allot more wrong in your home.

[drtyhands]

Before you do anything, I would get several estimates on the entire plumbing system. Then go back to the builder and see if he will refund you anything. From your pictures I am sure there is allot more wrong in your home.

What,are we kidding ourselves,he's done,insulation drywall,paint and pool table.

And here I am holding my breath for a thank you.
Josh,another tissue please:cool: