Over-Charged?

[ToUtahNow]

I don't want to make this a flat-rate debate because I feel that debate has been done to death. These prices could have also been charged by a T&M plumber who was dishonest.

My son just called me to tell me his friend hired a plumbing company to come in to install a new 50-gallon water heater, 4" center set lav faucet and fix a leak at an upstairs shower. This was for a nice 20+ year old home which he had purchased for his parents in Woodland Hills.

The plumber said the marble shower pan was bad and gave them a number to call a guy to replace the pan. The leak remained the same after the pan replacement. As it turned out the problem was the marble penetration for the stems were not sealed and the water was leaking behind the escutcheons and down into the substrate. My son packed the penetrations with plumbers putty and what do you know the leak stopped.

They did a fine job of replacing the water heater but what else would you expect for a $1,800 50-gallon water heater replacement? :eek:

The lav faucet cost $800 to replace but the bulk of the cost was the $500 the plumber charged for the Price Pfister 4" Savannah center set. :eek:

I'm sorry but I don't care how you spin it this company might as well have worn a mask. That faucet probably cost the plumbing company around $100 and the plumber made a $400 profit which he gets 3% ($12) on. This type of thing is what gives some flat-rate plumbers a bad name.

Mark

[freddy]

Was he not given the price before the work was started? One company cost and profit is different than the next. If he not happy with the price he should shop around first.:)

[biscuit]

I somewhat have to agree with freddy on this one, IF he knew what the cost was going to be upfront, then he does not have a lot of room to compain about the price.

However, I do feel that he got a big one up the caboose:eek:.

Regards,

[ToUtahNow]

This is not about whether it was legal or not it is more a question of whether he was taken advantage of. Besides I'm not sure being told the price means much when it's a lay person who does not know plumbing costs from animal husbandry. If my son was not asked to come by and see why the shower was still leaking after a several thousand dollar pan replacement :eek: his buddy would have never known the difference.

Mark

[biscuit]

As I said, I feel he took a big on up the caboose,

I do believe he was taken advantage of.

Regards,

[PLUMBER RICK]

mark, you already know how i feel:mad:

just because the homeowner is not up to date on prices, is no reason to rip them off.

didn't the plumber do a shower pan test?

did they get an inspection on the new pan? on the new heater?

i would seriously think about taking them to small claims court if the company doesn't make good on the pan.

i would also go to home depot and get a realistic retail price on the faucet and 2 flex connectors.

where did your sons friend get this plumber from? let me guess, the yellow pages:eek:

mark, have your son remove the putty from the marble wall. the oil from the putty will stain the marble. try expanding foam or caulking.


how about this one. my buddy who has a local plumbing shop in los angeles, just got news that his 72 year old mother in law who lives in colorado. just had a 40 gallon water heater replaced. was charged $2000. for the job.

problem was that she didn't call her daughter or son in law first for a realistic price. the company is willing to give them a $300. refund:eek:

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Was he not given the price before the work was started? One company cost and profit is different than the next. If he not happy with the price he should shop around first.:)


so basically, if the consumer is trusting the plumber, the plumber can take him for all it's worth.

when a homeowner has a leaking water heater or another emergency they typically don't have an opportunity to shop around.

i sure hope that this is not your way of doing business.

rick.

[freddy]

The price is right out of the plumbers Price book, no ones's taking advantage of the customer, they can say yes go ahead and do the job, or no thank you I want to shop around.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

The guy found the plumber in the yellow pages and the shower is cultured marble so the putty is fine.

I'm not sure of the particulars of the shower test other that the owner said he looked at the staining downstairs and said it was a bad pan. The owner said it did not look bad (cracked) but had it changed on the advise of the plumber.

The owner was not upset with the prices as he trusted the plumber so I don't believe he would take it to Small Claims Court.

Mark

[BHD]

And yet many of you guys say the problem with the industry is in the handyman, doing work. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

After getting burnt by one of the "Pros's" what to you expect, the problem with the Industry is GREED by some.

I do not think any one is in disagreement for paying a FAIR PRICE work well done, (and I think historically they are expecting a premium price on the work),
But when they are openly ripped off, there is a problem, and at times the work is substandard. (as stated by not finding and fixing the shower leak).
Just because it is legal does not make it right, and jsut because some one else is doing it does not make it right,

WHEN GREED is the major game in town, THAT is what is giving the plumbing Industry a BLACK EYE.

The thinking is:
IF I am going to get screwed, why pay thousands for it, if you can hire an Handyman off the street and probably will cost me a fraction of the cost of the pro.
That way it may only cost me in the hundreds instead thousands.

Believe it or not most can read price tags, on items in hardware stores.
and like the old saying goes "a few bad apples spoil the batch."

[plumberscrack]

They did a fine job of replacing the water heater but what else would you expect for a $1,800 50-gallon water heater replacement? :eek:

$1,800 for a 50 gallon gas power vent is not outrageous but if it was an electric with a 6 year tank warranty that's just highway robbery.

And how can someone just look up at a stain on the drywall cieling and diagnose a shower pan leaking?:eek:

Mark...WTF is animal husbandry?:confused:

Cultured marble shower walls?...never seen that befor

[BHD]

the simple definition of animal husbandry, is the aspect of farming/ranching with the raising of animals, in an agriculture setting.
http://www.answers.com/topic/animal-husbandry
animal husbandry
n.
The branch of agriculture concerned with the care and breeding of domestic animals such as cattle, hogs, sheep, and horses.

animal husbandry

Controlled cultivation, management, and production of domestic animals, including improvement of the qualities considered desirable by humans by means of breeding. Animals are bred and raised for utility (e.g., food, fur), sport, pleasure, and research.

[ToUtahNow]

$1,800 for a 50 gallon gas power vent is not outrageous but if it was an electric with a 6 year tank warranty that's just highway robbery.

The water heater was a standard 6-year 50-gallon gas A.O. Smith.

And how can someone just look up at a stain on the drywall cieling and diagnose a shower pan leaking?:eek:

They can't

Mark...WTF is animal husbandry?:confused:

LOL-You must be a City boy. It has to do with breeding and raising livestock.

Cultured marble shower walls?...never seen that befor

It is a mixture of resins and plaster. If there is a lot of resin it is considered cultured Onyx. If there is a little resin in is cultured marble.

[Drip Leg]

Was there any vasiline used during this procedure? :eek:

Was the heater instaled to code?

This is the kind of stuff that gets me angry because it effects all of us in the long run.

Always check the face plate, escutheon's, caulk, etc. first. Most leaks I go to are because of the small things.

Work harder and care more so some handy clown can give you a bad name, or even a licensed plumber!

Poeple are usually willing to pay a high price for something they want not something they need. But they will pay for quality work.

And there are people who dont know any better who get taken from a smooth talking salesman who is not a plumber, maybe a bob villa type who uses scare tactics to sell a product or additional work.

$2600.00 for that is just nuts. I understand the prices are probably almost double there compared to where I am but wow. I just did a small repipe for less than that. Here we are not the cheap guy, and dont want to cut the corners to be the cheap guy. But we are also not the most expensive.

[westcoastplumber]

It is a mixture of resins and plaster. If there is a lot of resin it is considered cultured Onyx. If there is a little resin in is cultured marble.

What other things were done to the water heater? was it a straight change out? in and out, 2 water flex and a heater? did it have code violations? watts 210 installed? water heater inside? 2 man installation?? smitty pan?? expansion tank? drip leg on the gas? new B vent?? new shed? all things to take into consideration. everyone is aware water heaters are going up another $150.00 in cost because of the new regs on lo-nox, supposedly this water heater will hook up to a phone line so it can be diagnosed:eek: county of los angeles is the only place in the country requiring them...feed back??? if the plumbers keep getting raped by the city, county, state, material cost, outrageous insurance {because of so many jacka## lawsuits}, our labor needs to take it in the shorts??

[Drip Leg]

supposedly this water heater will hook up to a phone line so it can be diagnosed:eek: county of los angeles is the only place in the country requiring them...feed back???



The power co. here will give you a new dryer to use as long as you keep it hooked up to an internet connection so they can moniter the power usage of new products

[plumbdog10]

Welcome to the US guys. This country has become hyper-capitalist. The theory is that the "market" will balance the inequities. Why do you think Ridgid distributes Chinese built tools under their name? Because they can make money. Those who disagree be damned. Ethics have little to nothing to do with life in America.

I think it's sad, but what do I know?

[ToUtahNow]

What other things were done to the water heater? was it a straight change out? in and out, 2 water flex and a heater? did it have code violations? watts 210 installed? water heater inside? 2 man installation?? smitty pan?? expansion tank? drip leg on the gas? new B vent?? new shed? all things to take into consideration. everyone is aware water heaters are going up another $150.00 in cost because of the new regs on lo-nox, supposedly this water heater will hook up to a phone line so it can be diagnosed:eek: county of los angeles is the only place in the country requiring them...feed back??? if the plumbers keep getting raped by the city, county, state, material cost, outrageous insurance {because of so many jacka## lawsuits}, our labor needs to take it in the shorts??


First as a little history on my son, he worked for me as a plumber for a couple of years before he enlisted in the Air Force as a Crash Unit Firefighter. After 6-years in the Air Force he came home and worked as a plumber for the guy I sold my shop to. Not being able to get on as a Firefighter in Los Angeles he switched careers and became a Police Officer for the City of Los Angeles. In other words he is not currently a Plumber looking at a competitors work.

The homeowner is a friend of my son who he flies helicopters with as a side job/hobby. The homeowner asked my son to come over and look at the problem with the shower pan after the repair the plumber recommended had not worked. While reviewing the bill from the plumbing call my son noticed the other prices.

As far as what was required of the water heater replacement my understanding is it was a simple change out. This makes sense since the house and recently closed Escrow and the water heater was only replaced at the plumber’s suggestion. As freddy pointed out yesterday the price is right out of the Plumber’s Pricing Manual. Well almost, the PPM shows a 50-gallon AO Smith GVR-50 at $1,827.97 installed which includes 2-brass nipples and 2-die-electric unions. I don’t know what your shop is paying for a 50-gallon water heater but that is a nice profit and then some.

When you talk about cost going up because of “so many jacka## lawsuits” I would have to counter with there are now so many lawsuits because of jacka** plumbers who are not qualified to do the work. In the last 19-years I have been the Plumbing Expert on thousands of plumbing lawsuits. The quality of plumbing work being done today is not the quality I was taught 35-years ago. When I am representing the plumber it is usually more about damage control then arguing nothing is wrong. I would say on the plumbers I have defended over the years less than 1% did nothing wrong. Some cheated on materials, some cheated on labor and some just did not have a clue about what they were doing. The problem never seems to be as bad as the Plaintiff says it is but rarely are they jacka## lawsuits with nothing wrong.

Mark

[FINER9998]

And the moral of the story is.... "caveat emptor". Comparison shopping is a good way to find a reputable pro and to learn a little something in the process. Problem is, too many consumers have no interest in how anything at home works. They just want to write a check to make the problem go away.

Toutahnow...what is a plumbers pricing manual?

[freddy]

When you talk about cost going up because of “so many jacka## lawsuits” I would have to counter with there are now so many lawsuits because of jacka** plumbers who are not qualified to do the work. In the last 19-years I have been the Plumbing Expert on thousands of plumbing lawsuits. The quality of plumbing work being done today is not the quality I was taught 35-years ago. When I am representing the plumber it is usually more about damage control then arguing nothing is wrong. I would say on the plumbers I have defended over the years less than 1% did nothing wrong. Some cheated on materials, some cheated on labor and some just did not have a clue about what they were doing. The problem never seems to be as bad as the Plaintiff says it is but rarely are they jacka## lawsuits with nothing wrong.

I don't think there's a person alive that could not be sue any day of the week and be with out some claim of negligence. There are lawyers who will find something to claim as not up to standards. One plumber against another. Just like on here. 1 million dollar insurance don't go far in today's world.:)

[ToUtahNow]

freddy,

I'm not talking differences in opinions I am talking about installing your p-traps on a 45 because your rough-ins to tubs are off. I had one where the County had been trying to find the source of sewer gas in a track of homes for years. They've hydro-jetted all of the lines in the street and changed all of the manhole lids and nothing helped. What I found was a track full of homes where the primary condensates to the A/C were tied into the lav trap arms instead of the lav tail pieces. This stuff is so obvious you know the plumber had no business on the job. What makes it worst is when I talk to their bosses many times they are no better.

Mark

BTW: I truely feel if you are a plumber on this site you are here because you care about the trades and not part of the problem.

[westcoastplumber]

When you talk about cost going up because of “so many jacka## lawsuits” I would have to counter with there are now so many lawsuits because of jacka** plumbers who are not qualified to do the work. In the last 19-years I have been the Plumbing Expert on thousands of plumbing lawsuits. The quality of plumbing work being done today is not the quality I was taught 35-years ago. When I am representing the plumber it is usually more about damage control then arguing nothing is wrong. I would say on the plumbers I have defended over the years less than 1% did nothing wrong. Some cheated on materials, some cheated on labor and some just did not have a clue about what they were doing. The problem never seems to be as bad as the Plaintiff says it is but rarely are they jacka## lawsuits with nothing wrong.

I don't think there's a person alive that could not be sue any day of the week and be with out some claim of negligence. There are lawyers who will find something to claim as not up to standards. One plumber against another. Just like on here. 1 million dollar insurance don't go far in today's world.:)

As long as there is even a one percent chance that some large company made some small mistake, there is a dirty lawyer out there to use his high priced education and a few law books to grease his hand. I personally have never been sued, never been involved in a lawsuit, but I have heard many horror stories from fellow contractors and also from greedy lawyers bragging about what they can do for "you," these lawsuits for 10 million dollars in damages? come on, :mad: anyone who has time to research what I am talking about will find that lawyers are behind most of this, all you have to do is take an idea to a lawyer and ask " what do you think this is worth?" Lets talk ethics for a second...is it fair a lawyer charges $250.00 for a 5 minute phone conversation?? Maybe 1800 for a 50 gallon water heater is a bit steep, but take a few minutes and think about whats behind that charge.....the cost of the water heater, the drive time, the knowledge to install it, the van to bring it over, the tools to install it, the fact that it took the guy out of the field for approx 2-4 hrs depending on the complete package, etc. I personally am always continuing my education to better my trade and my skills, I have invested over 30,000 in tools, not including my van, many hours of education, wasted time by customers, wasted time in traffic, remember, you get what you pay for, if you want a cheap job, go find an unlicensed plumber or handyman to do the job, if you think the price is high, go get another bid, Don't look at through tunnel vision. Look at the whole picture, from the vendor who sells the material, to the signature on the completed invoice! I take alot of pride in my trade and I am expected by my customers to have the knowledge and the right " up to date tools" to complete the job. For this, I am able to charge enough to cover my expences, feed my family, and make a profit.

[freddy]

I agree with what you say westcoastplumber. But on this board your going to find alot of friction to price books manuals.
The T&M guy think your are a rip off con man, if you use a price book, for what your bussiness cost to run, and make a profit for your company.:confused: I feel T&M shops are doing more damage to the trade than any bussiness that uses a price book. They bring there price down so low, that they stay busy, and think that makes them sucsessful. And throw stones, at people who use a price book. And call them rip off company because they charged more for a job than they would have.
The busy shop Basicly is charging handy man wages and making it look like any one that charges more is a rip off. T&M shops don't get mad becauce
another company makes more money on a job than you. ready aim fire:D

[plumberscrack]

I don't want to make this a flat-rate debate because I feel that debate has been done to death.

Mark

And just when you think the Flat Rate fire has been put out; it flares back up again:eek:

[westcoastplumber]

I agree with what you say westcoastplumber. But on this board your going to find alot of friction to price books manuals.
The T&M guy think your are a rip off con man, if you use a price book, for what your bussiness cost to run, and make a profit for your company.:confused: I feel T&M shops are doing more damage to the trade than any bussiness that uses a price book. They bring there price down so low, that they stay busy, and think that makes them sucsessful. And throw stones, at people who use a price book. And call them rip off company because they charged more for a job than they would have.
The busy shop Basicly is charging handy man wages and making it look like any one that charges more is a rip off. T&M shops don't get mad becauce
another company makes more money on a job than you. ready aim fire:D

well, we won't get into that whole t&m flat rate cost mess. I guess what I am saying is if you feel you were ripped off, look at the "whole picture" If I started a t&m shop 15 or so years ago and made my money, and have a large customer base, then I would be happy with t&m also, but to cover cost now a days t&m won't cut it. Thanks for the discussion guy's

[ToUtahNow]

I find some of the comments very telling. I did not start my plumbing business 15-years ago I started it 27-years ago and yes I made my money and yes I was a T&M shop. Things were no different then they are now except for maybe the long gas lines we had to wait in to buy gas for our trucks. Back then our labor-rate was $27.50 per hour and as our expenses increased so did our hourly rate.

I used the same business model I have used in every business I have been in. It was not about instant-gratification it was about working hard for 5-years until I had a customer base to support the business. That is why my shop is still in business today with many of the original customers. Perhaps one difference is I never needed to spend thousands of dollars per month on a couple of full page ads in the Yellow Pages to get work.

I have said before I am not against flat-rating as long as it is done fairly. As far as pricing books go I have had a Trade Services book on my desk since before they were Trade Services. When I started with them they were still Modern Services. I also had a Reeves Journal Pricing binder in the old days because neither book had all of the manufacturers listed.

I have seen where many flat-rate shop have a few real plumbers then a bunch of kids who they call plumbers. Interestingly enough they base their hourly rate on the ability of the best plumber but base their man hours on the ability of their least qualified “plumber”.

I am working on several projects out of State right now which have caused a feeding frenzy of plumbers to try and get the work. There is so much of this work plumbers are coming from the opposite coast and setting up shops just to get the work. Many of those shops are national franchise shops which are known for flat-rating. These are bidded projects so everyone is using competitive pricing if they want the work. The flat-rate shops are so out classed by the T&M shops it is almost embarrassing. Not only do the T&M shops complete the job in fewer hours they do a much better job. The big difference between the shops is not their pricing manuals it is their employees. This is pretty much what I have seen in service work as well. In flat-rating it is about bodies not skill. Too many of their employees are put into trucks before they are ready to be on their own.

The automotive industry is where flat-rate pricing started. I don’t care for it there either but at least automotive shops post their hourly rate and will tell you how many man-hours they are charging you. I have never seen a flat-rate plumbing shop do the same. Service work is not supposed to be about smoke and mirrors.

Recently a plumber here was talking about the merits of flat-rating. I think he left the site after a flat-rate debate which is too bad because I think he could have been an asset to the forum. However, one comment he made which explains he had to be somewhat conflicted with flat-rating was his commercial and property management customers remained at T&M. If flat-rating is a fair way to bill why not bill everyone the same?

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

well, we won't get into that whole t&m flat rate cost mess. I guess what I am saying is if you feel you were ripped off, look at the "whole picture" If I started a t&m shop 15 or so years ago and made my money, and have a large customer base, then I would be happy with t&m also, but to cover cost now a days t&m won't cut it. Thanks for the discussion guy's


robert, why do you feel that you need to get rich quick?

nothing happens overnight, unless you win the lottery.

how is it that "t&m won't cut it today"

what percentage of the jobs you flat rate actually accept the price?

how many actually question how you derived at that price?

how many have told you to take a hike:eek:

just because us old timers have worked hard to start a business and build it up. afford to purchase our own shop, equipment and build up our customer base without spending more than the cost of a business card, tells me we're doing something right. from $3.00 an hour in 1975, to $80.00 an hour in 2007, is not getting rich overnight.

pricing a job and hoping the customer does not have a clue is not plumbing. it's selling and then some:eek:

the way you make it sound, it's like you're new and you got to ketch up with the rest of the pack.

i take it that all of your work is service and repair. no new construction or contract work. no competitive bidding.

not trying to single you out, just trying to understand where your coming from.

rick.

[Crappy days]

I have not left the forum, I review post regularly. Since the debate that took place several weeks ago, I have Implemented flat rate pricing. So far I have not had any complaints. The response from my costumers has actually been very positive. I think the key is, is being honest, not whether you use t&m or flat rate. I have instructed my techs to answer any of our customers question about the new pricing. The decision for me to use flat rate was hard to come to ,however after much research & thought. I believe I came to the right decision for my company. I do still charge my commercial clients less, for several reasons such as they cost less to provide service to. As I researched flat rate. I found article after article supporting it. The only articles or surveys against it, that I found were written by plumbers not consumers or consultants. I have Sean many great plumbers, make horrible business men. I do however think your sons friend was overcharged for a basic water heater change out. Although I think we do have to keep in mind the over head of some of the larger service and repair shops. At the end of the day, I guess its really up to the consumer to decide. http://www.phccweb.org/FactsandStats/fandsdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=2685

[freddy]

At the end of the day, I guess its really up to the consumer to decide. http://www.phccweb.org/FactsandStats...temNumber=2685
Way to go crappy days, keep moving your company to new levels.:)

[westcoastplumber]

robert, why do you feel that you need to get rich quick? not trying to get rich quick, just observing the options. working on starting my own company and want to be sucessful and fair as possible, without losing any profits. I have always worked at flat rate shops, I agree about fair flat rate, not gouging the customer, it's up to the plumber

nothing happens overnight, unless you win the lottery.

how is it that "t&m won't cut it today" I review my job orders, I would lose alot more money for the shop if I t&m everything. My current boss lets us decide, my sales are top, I have the most repeat customer base, more then the other plumbers.

what percentage of the jobs you flat rate actually accept the price? I get approx 80 percent of my estimates

how many actually question how you derived at that price? I do get questions, but I answer them

how many have told you to take a hike:eek: I do lose some, but if I do, it's because if I did the job I would lose money and possible profits somewhere else

just because us old timers have worked hard to start a business and build it up. afford to purchase our own shop, equipment and build up our customer base without spending more than the cost of a business card, tells me we're doing something right. from $3.00 an hour in 1975, to $80.00 an hour in 2007, is not getting rich overnight. I hope I wasn't insulting, I WASN'T TRYING TO BE TO YOU AND UTAHNOW

pricing a job and hoping the customer does not have a clue is not plumbing. it's selling and then some:eek: I fully explain everything to my customers, they don't feel they are getting ripped off

the way you make it sound, it's like you're new and you got to ketch up with the rest of the pack. I am still new to business management, and abit in the trade, I have only been in it for 10 years

i take it that all of your work is service and repair. no new construction or contract work. no competitive bidding. I just bid a remodel and was awarded the job. new construction, depends on the level of quality the general wants. I can bit it for 2 piece angle stops and flex, or 1 piece, I worked for a new construction company, their saying was make it last for atleast 12 months, I don't believe in that.

not trying to single you out, just trying to understand where your coming from.

rick.

FOR THE RECORED, I RESPECT EVERYONES VIEWS HIGHLY, I KEEP THEM ALL IN MY HEAD. I WANT TO BUILD A SUCESSFUL SHOP AND BE FAIR, AND AT THE SAME TIME, KEEP A HIGH QUALITY OF WORK. ALL THINGS THAT ARE DIFFICULT IN BUSINESS. PLEASE COMMENT GUYS, I RESPECT BOTH OF YOU VERY MUCH BEING SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS OWNERS, I NEVER DISCARD KNOWLEDGE.
P.S.: I TOOK A SURVEY THE OTHER DAY AT A BBQ, I WAS IN A GROUP OF APPROX 30 PEOPLE, ASKED OPINIONS OF ABOUT 10, TOLD THEM ABOUT MY BUSINESS PLAN, THEY PERFERED THE FLAT RATE OVER THE HOURLY, FOR THE MAIN REASON, THEY WILL KNOW WHAT IT IS GOING TO COST, RATHER THEN BE SUPPRISED BY THE BILL AT THE END OF THE JOB

[PLUMBER RICK]

At the end of the day, I guess its really up to the consumer to decide. http://www.phccweb.org/FactsandStats...temNumber=2685
Way to go crappy days, keep moving your company to new levels.:)

great your quoting someone from march of 2003 that is no longer a contractor that did a little survey on pricing of air conditioning repairs with 3% of the co's using flat rate.

lets be realistic. there are 10 times more calls on plumbing than there is on a/c. there is also a thousands times more of a variety of calls for plumbing than there is for a/c. we are talking residential correct.

freddy, is there a reason why no one knows what business your in or where you conduct that business?

you seem to be very pro flat rate. but nobody knows what or where you do it.

if flat rate is so great, why do i get so many new customers from people that tried flat rate? all i ever hear from them and ever see from their invoices are horror stories.

why is it that 1 of the first and largest flat rate companies in the usa has 24 trucks in his local area yard in the morning and at any given time in the day still has 19 trucks in the yard? maybe the pubic has gotten wise;) maybe the system that once was thought good for the consumer, has actually backfired and the tables are turning back to a competitive time and material price.

why is it that i deal with home owner associations and management co's on a daily basis, and they don't deal with flat rate co's? maybe because they know better:rolleyes:

even an ebay seller is listing cd copies of flat rate pricing. he only has a 74% feedback score. he can't even deliver the product without controversy:eek:

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

thank you westcoast/ robert for answering my questions:)

i appreciate your comments too.

i just don't agree with the pricing thing.

if you were to hypothetically rework your bill to a time and material cost. what do you see as the average savings to the customers?

please base this on average/ not on 1 particular job.

thanks, rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

how about this one. my buddy who has a local plumbing shop in los angeles, just got news that his 72 year old mother in law who lives in colorado. just had a 40 gallon water heater replaced. was charged $2000. for the job.

problem was that she didn't call her daughter or son in law first for a realistic price. the company is willing to give them a $300. refund:eek:

rick.

another update. it was an additional $600. to change the ball valve in the basement.

so mark, your sons buddy got a deal:D my buddies mother in law got taken:eek:

[Crappy days]

I chose the PHCC article because I think we can all agree, they are consistently looking out for what is best for the trades. Here are a few more , as I stated in previous post my business accountant also prefers flat rate as he has seen the benefit to the contractors that use it, and do not. Again this is a personal decision. I am not suggesting that the T&M guys are wrong. http://www.phccweb.org/FactsandStats/fandsdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=2690http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=350http://www.contractingbusiness.com/25/Issue/Article/False/6057/http://www.callahan-roach.com/news.asp?article=011501http://www.cleaner.com/Articles/May.htmlhttp://www.phccweb.org/search/SearchResults2.cfm?QUICKSEARCH=flat%20rate%20

[ToUtahNow]

Crappy,

Glad to see you stuck around. We may not always agree but I can tell you flat-rate guys’ care about what you are doing. By the way you and crack need to go to Username School and pick out new names.

You made a comment that you referenced the PHCC because we all know they care about the Trade. Of course the fact that flat-rate pricing was born by George Brazil with the help of the PHCC I’m not really sure they can be considered unbiased.

The theory behind flat-rate pricing is fine. Whether we call it that or not Rick and I probably both have done flat-rating. There are certain jobs we do over and over again and because of that we can give a fixed price for the job over the phone. Those jobs include but are not limited to water heaters, regulators, garbage disposals, kitchen faucets, Tub and/or Shower valves, and so on and so on.

I don’t know enough about yours or westcoast’s business to comment on the way you guys do business so I will try to speak in general terms. If a customer called me for a price for a 40-gallon water heater I would quote them an installed price for the heater with new piping on top and whatever work was required to rework the vent. If when I got to the door it turned out they needed additional work I would give them a price for the additional work. If the customer did not like the price I would thank them and excuse myself at no-charge to the customer. Most flat-rate companies would make the customer pay for a service call to get to the door and then give them the installed price. If the customer did not like the price the customer is still committed to pay the service call so most customers authorize the work. That little piece of work was George’s idea and he was real proud that it worked so well.

For flat-rate pricing to be fair you need to look at your real-world costs then add your profit to arrive at an hourly rate. For your material costs you would do the same thing as with your labor. What you would not do is use an arbitrary figure someone else came up with based on imaginary costs and profit.

During the last flat-rate discussion on this forum I posted the costs recommended by TradeService’s Plumber’s Pricing Manual. In this discussion someone mention a price was right out of the pricing manual which as it turns out it was. When you charge right out of the pricing manual it assumes you have the same costs as the company they used as a model. The model they used was a plumber making $22 per hour. In column 1 the labor rate would be $100 per hour (450% burden and profit), in column 2 the labor rate would be $150 per hour (665% burden and profit) and in column 3 the labor rate is $200 per hour (900% burden and profit). I’m not sure what company they used as a model but any company which needs to add 450-900% on top of their labor cost to make an “honest” living is doing something wrong. In addition, anyone who is using there labor rates as a model is no better off.

The age old argument to support flat-rate over T&M has always been that the customer knows up front what the price will be. Why is it then that most flat-rate companies charge a service call to give the customer a price?

Mark

BTW: Are you going to meet us in Long Beach this Saturday for the PHCC Trade Show?

[Crappy days]

Utah, I will not be at the show a matter a fact, I Will be in Utah. I agree with allot of the thoughts you and Rick have on flat rate. I do not Charge for Estimates during normal business hours 8 to 5 M-F. The most I have ever charged for a 50 gallon water heater was around 1400.00 to 1600.00 and that was with all the bells and whistles 12 year, EQ straps, ball valve, copper flex, Gas cock + flex and drip pan (not to mention a couple of flight of stairs). Also for any one who wants to learn more about Flat rate there are numerous articles on line. The cleaner has a couple along with many other magazines and columnists. I also stated in a post misdirected at Dog, that my family and I have a long history in the Automobile industry. After speaking with my uncle and several other family members who are old enough to remember when flat rate came out for the auto industries. I've come to the conclusion that it going to take another 10 to twenty years, for it to be received as it has in other industries. I think that anyone with an open mind can see that there are benefits to both ways of doing business. Of course even I do not flat rate everything.

[Crappy days]

Here are a few more sites that have information for flat rate if anyone is interested.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2930&purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-7026052
http://www.callahan-roach.com/news.asp?article=011501
http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=350
http://www.contractingbusiness.com/25/Issue/Article/False/6057/
http://www.phccweb.org/FactsandStats/fandsdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=2690
http://www.cleaner.com/Articles/May.html

[Crappy days]

This article is somewhat typical of the shortage world wide for plumbers. I know in my area. The lack of qualified tradesman has also caused prices to increase.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4201882.stm

[ToUtahNow]

crappy,

Have a good time in Utah and stay safe. I just got back from Utah but I may head back up there tomorrow depending on how my day goes. I have two daughters in Logan but I generally only make it to Big Rock Candy Mountain unless their is family stuff in Logan.

There are dishonest T&M plumbers and there are dishonest flat-rate plumbers. Don't try and get too rich too fast and you will be fine. Flat-rate plumbing is almost 20-years old now and I'm sure it is here to stay.

Mark

[Crappy days]

I will be in Orem for a day, and then we are going to bear lake for a reunion. I hope you have a good time and ejoy your family.

[ToUtahNow]

http://www.seattleplumber.com/flatrate_article.html

[westcoastplumber]

http://www.seattleplumber.com/flatrate_article.html



Thanks for the article:)

[ToUtahNow]

I just found it amusing his shop is 1,100 + miles away from my shop and his recollection of the birth of flat-rate pricing for plumbing was the same as mine.

The article he wrote was in response to this story:

http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4125166.html (http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4125166.html)

Here is another story about the same outfit.

http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4067086.html (http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4067086.html)

These are the type of stories which give flat-rate companies a bad name. That does not mean all flat-rate companies are the same.

Mark

[BAPlumber]

I worked for a flat rate company in Seattle for about 7 years and the general opinion was that plumbserve and a couple other companies were jokes because of the way they charged. One of their guys came to work for me once and told me that the plumbers in his shop were required to bill out $2000 a day or they wouldn't last a week. This guy didn't last more than 3 months because he couldn't restrain himself from over charging.

I've always worked for flat rate companies, that's what I know, that's how my company charges. I've heard, and seen the horror stories of rapists. I run my company to be fair to the consumer and make a reasonable profit. repeat customers are the backbone of any buisness.

It's only the bad apples that get the press.

Brent.

[Crappy days]

BAPLUMBER, Well said I could not agree more.

[ToUtahNow]

I worked for a flat rate company in Seattle for about 7 years and the general opinion was that plumbserve and a couple other companies were jokes because of the way they charged. One of their guys came to work for me once and told me that the plumbers in his shop were required to bill out $2000 a day or they wouldn't last a week. This guy didn't last more than 3 months because he couldn't restrain himself from over charging.

Brent.

Actually not because I checked or anything but Gary Jessen and his father Rodney lasted 5-years as Plumb Serve LLC. Then 2-years ago Gary went on as Plumb Serve LLC, DBA Benjamin Franklin Plumbing which is still in operation along with Electro Serve. All of the businesses list the same address in Bellevue.

Don't you love the Internet and public information?

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

interesting articles mark.

george actually started in new construction and was a master at prefab.

he then discovered that there was less competition and more money to be made in repair work.

i too have had the opportunity to meet and talk with him.

even his next protégé' mike diamond:eek:

rick.

[BAPlumber]

Actually not because I checked or anything but Gary Jessen and his father Rodney lasted 5-years as Plumb Serve LLC. Then 2-years ago Gary went on as Plumb Serve LLC, DBA Benjamin Franklin Plumbing which is still in operation along with Electro Serve. All of the businesses list the same address in Bellevue.

Don't you love the Internet and public information?

Mark

I wasn't saying they weren't in buisness anymore. I was saying the guy that came to work for us didn't last 3 weeks.

[ToUtahNow]

I wasn't saying they weren't in buisness anymore. I was saying the guy that came to work for us didn't last 3 weeks.

Sorry I guess I misread your post. Do you hear any good or bad about Benjamin Franklin Plumbing? It seems odd he would buy a franchise unless he was not doing OK on his own.

Mark

[BAPlumber]

I moved to southern Oregon about 2 years ago and started my own company, so don't have much knowledge about whats happened since I left. I know most of the companies with bad reps. would change their names periodically.

[franklie]

it's not just in the US where being over-charged for crappy work is endemic.

as I have posted before, I do volunteer work for a home for abused women in Mexico. The nuns that run the home don't know squat about construction or repair. After an incident several years ago involving the local gas company (propane tank and piping) the head nun there finally is running all projects, remodels or repairs, through me.

the project that convinced the mother superior to have me review all bids for jobs that needed to be done, was the conversion from stand-alone bottles of propane gas to an onsite propane tank. when the local company finished the job there were deadlegs in the plumbing, failure to remove the bottle piping (which presented an eye-hazard and leak hazard) and several gas leaks. Big carbon marks on the copper were additional clues that the person doing the job didn't know how to control the torch heat.

I came in, got permission from the mother superior to use one of the women from the shelter as my helper and after teaching her how to sweat solder we went through and fixed all the piping problems. when we finished we soap bubble tested ALL of the joints starting from the tank and working outward. we found additional leaks in the threaded joints that we were able to fix by tightening up the connections.

as I told the nuns, "to rip someone off who is ignorant in the construction trades is easy. to do a good job at a fair price is only slightly harder."

I think the mother superior had to go to confession after I finished the job because she definitely wasn't happy about being screwed over by the propane gas company.

[Crappy days]

Benjamin Franklin Plumbing has a franchise here in San Diego. It is owned by Mary Jean Anderson of Walter Anderson Plumbing who also owns One Hour Heating and Air. As far as I know they are one of the highest priced shops in town. But they also have a money back guarantee. They will refund 110 percent of your money for any reason, if you are unsatisfied. I used One Hour
for the AC/HEAT unit I had installed. They were more costly then anyone else but I know Mary Jean and her husband personally and so far I have no complaints.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Benjamin Franklin Plumbing has a franchise here in San Diego. It is owned by Mary Jean Anderson of Walter Anderson Plumbing who also owns One Hour Heating and Air. As far as I know they are one of the highest priced shops in town. But they also have a money back guarantee. They will refund 110 percent of your money for any reason, if you are unsatisfied. I used One Hour
for the AC/HEAT unit I had installed. They were more costly then anyone else but I know Mary Jean and her husband personally and so far I have no complaints.


i would love to read the fine print on that 110% guarantee:D

rick.

[Crappy days]

The fine print is actually very large print that says basically if for any reason you are unsatisfied with the equipment or installation there of the equipment and One Hour cannot remedy the problem. The equipment will be removed with a 110 percent refund. Its very straight forward and there are no tricks. This cover 1 calender year from installation.

[Crappy days]

On my contract it says 110 percent.
http://www.andersononehourair.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=39

[ToUtahNow]

crappy,

I went to their plumbing site and surfed around it a bit. They seem to be a great company. Many of what was on their repipe site was almost word for word what I had 25-years ago in our flyers.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

there is a hvac co here in culver city that is also a 1 hour franchisee.

they do a lot of bulk mailing but they also run a large hvac shop too with a different name?

not sure why?

rick.

[gear junkie]

The 1 hour franchise; they'll be there in one hour or they'll fix it one hour?

[ToUtahNow]

The 1 hour franchise; they'll be there in one hour or they'll fix it one hour? They generally promise to be there in an hour or less. Now there is a new franchise out there name 59 Minutes. I guess that means there are still 58 more names to choose from before you have to go to 61 Minutes. Be careful though as a lot of those franchises pay you $5 per minute for being late. If you get stuck with one-minute plumbing you may have to pay the customer for the service call.

Mark

[Crappy days]

One Hour to my understanding is a reputable franchise however they are high priced. The thing is with certain guarantees I and some other consumers do not mind paying. If I told you guys what I paid for my system you would all be shocked and then the debate would start all over again. I think with flat rate or any other business it is more about how you deal with your customers than what you charge them. Its like going to Ruth Cris for dinner. Sure I could cook a steak just as good however sometimes I just want to treat myself. I can honestly say they rolled out the red carpet while they worked in my home, but I also paid for every fiber in the carpet.

[Crappy days]

From statements made from some people in the past this guy is no better then us flat raters. If you look at his equipment charges and so forth , you can see he still uses some flat rate practices. Just his show up fee , or overtime rate alone, I could argue I have better prices then him. But at this point I do not really care.
http://www.seattleplumber.com/pricing.htm

[rafterq]

I couldn't sleep at night if I over-charged folks like that...I don't care if they saw it coming or not, afterall, I know what the job is worth. Matter of fact, I have wondered if I will make it through my first year, with my prices as they are, but the Lord keeps bringing me biz when I need it, so I have no choice but to do folks right.

[Gene Bickford]

I hear ya rafterq. I'm in my first year as well and I'd rather go belly up then rob people.
Notice how detailed his pricing/billing structure is? It's like reading the rules of golf. I'm thinking he's had several complaints and wants to cover every possible angle.
Not to defend him but, it's not like hes a wolf in sheep's clothing,( more like a wolf in wolfs clothing). Hes very clear in his pricing. I just hope his customers(sheep) don't have to dip into the kids collage fund if he has to change a roll of TP:D

[rafterq]

heh heh...roger that...let's just hope we don't go belly up.

[All Clear Sewer]

Benjamin Franklin Plumbing has a franchise here in San Diego. It is owned by Mary Jean Anderson of Walter Anderson Plumbing who also owns One Hour Heating and Air. As far as I know they are one of the highest priced shops in town. But they also have a money back guarantee. They will refund 110 percent of your money for any reason, if you are unsatisfied. I used One Hour
for the AC/HEAT unit I had installed. They were more costly then anyone else but I know Mary Jean and her husband personally and so far I have no complaints.

Well Benjamin Franklin Plumbing has a franchise here in town and the same One Hour Heating and Air and two other names they go by. I taking em to court for the screwing I got from em that the city inspector wouldn't pass. So much for franchise names ;)

[All Clear Sewer]

i would love to read the fine print on that 110% guarantee:D

rick.
If it`s the same one I got, it`s not worth the paper it`s printed on ;)

[FINER9998]

Can anyone explain to me why a successful plumber would align themselves with a franchise such as Benjamin Franlin? There is a BF here in the New York City tri state area and the plumber behind the local BF is the county's most expensive flat rate rip off artist. They do great work but charge roughly 60% more than the second priciest plumber.

[MrRoundel]

Since it looks like a lot of you folks are in CA, you're probably the ones to ask. I have a plumber who has done a few jobs for me in the past, including rough and finish on a major bath remodel and kitchen. My brother is a general contractor who appreciates that the guy does good work and shows up when he says he will. We went T&M on the bath and kitchen work. The labor rate he quoted me was $130 per hour. This was for two guys, journeyman and apprentice, and allowed for what he called the "bro discount", as he usually charged $150 per hour. So, I get the bill and it has a fairly accurate number of hours but he hadn't itemized the parts and was charging an amazingly round $2,000 for materials. I knew that there was no way that there was $2,000 in materials. A retail breakdown ended up at around $700 for parts. I called him on it. He got a bit defensive, gave me a song and dance about the fact that he may pay more for parts from his supplier, etc. and knocked a couple of hundred bucks off. Because he'd done the rough, and I wanted continuity for warranty purposes, I had him do the finish also. He itemized the finish bill. A few months later, my brother, a general contractor, was remodeling my kitchen. While plumbing was my responsibility, I knew that this plumber would do a good job, and show up, so I sucked it up and hired him again. He again itemized the bill for parts and labor. What I'd missed, is that I was no longer getting his "bro discount". Forward to last week. I call plumber to install an upstairs tub for me, still expecting the $130 (As I said, I'd missed the increase.) per hour. I get the bill and it has the hours showing up with an extra 1/2 hour per worker, amounting to an additional $75. So, I end up with a bill for the $75, plus $110 for the non-bro price. I asked him what the deal was with the extra 1/2 hours. He said that it was for travel time, that he had to pay his guys, so I had to pay him. I think it's a bit outrageous to be charged for travel (Perhaps 6 miles roundtrip) when one is already paying what I feel is a hefty hourly rate. It seems that this guy always seems to round up very generously in his favor. What do you professionals think? Do you charge for travel time on top of a generous rate? If so, do you have a distance cutoff? Would you advise using this guy again? The problems for you guys is this: When people do business like this plumber, it leaves a bad taste in the customer's mouth. I can write a very good contract, and will be doing so in the future. If the tradesman balks about it, I'll find another tradesman. Live and learn. Happy fitting.

[ToUtahNow]

Hourly rates are based on several factors and costs. Those costs are the same whether an employee is working or driving. I always charged travel time to the door but charged the next customer for the trip to the next job.

Material costs are the same way. If I pay $100 for materials I have to then factor in what it took to order and pick up the parts in addition to waste in materials, warehousing materials and warranting those materials.

With all of the above being said why in the world did you not ask for a bid before the work started?

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

I would say 130.00 an hour for a plumber and a journeyman is very fair. As far as material cost, you have to expect plumbers to mark up their materials, I am not sure what material was invlolved, but a fair mark up is necessary, I cannot comment on material cost to you because I do not have your material breakdown. Faucets purchased from home depot or lowes may look like faucets from a supply house but they are made cheaply to appeal to the DIY'ers wallet and the quality is usually crap compared to a supply house faucet, same brand, plastic parts in the depot/lowes faucet.

Keep in mind that your idea of generous rate ($130.00) is not pocket money, alot of expenses come out of that hourly rate like workers comp, insurance, salary and other overhead expenses.

I would recommend you get a estimate before you agree to having someone work on your house, get many estimates and remember you get what you pay for.

Quality over cost, too many people are wanting cost over quality and are paying for it months later.

[drtyhands]

it is too close to call at this point for me.

i don't know what was involved in your project.

we have seen clear injustice in the $1000's.

$150 for two guys is fine

1/2 hour drive time for a tub only is fair to me,if there was more involved,no.
when i'm doing a remodel t&m i don't charge drive.unless it's outside of my range

This plumber does not sound like an ABSOLUTE in the unfare department.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks for all of the responses. You guys are gentlemanly and scholarly. Notes: 1.)The tub was dropped off at the site by the supplier. I helped get it upstairs. 2.)The fact that I recognize quality is why I hired this guy back, despite the first questionable invoice. I'm willing to pay for quality but dislike surprises. 3.)I am quite alright with guys marking up their materials to allow for the costs of getting them and keeping them in inventory. To me an acceptable markup, when being charged a going rate for plumber time, is 50% max. In the first instance, he was charging near triple retail for the parts. Parts were common 3/4" and 1/2 fittings and pipe, plus ABS for vent pipes, etc. There was nothing heavy or unusual. 4.)On all jobs, walls were open to studs and ceilings to joists, so there were no hidden hassle factors. 5.)I don't feel as gouged on this bill as I did on the first one but the travel time was never discussed so I didn't realize that I was paying for it. The bill is about 20% higher than I'd anticipated. 6.)Of all of the tradespeople I've had doing work, this guy is the only one I've questioned about what I call "dynamic billing policies". With the exception of the tile guy, who did a terrible job, everybody else seemed happy with charging a going fair wage, without having to pad it. Like I said, I'll be writing tight contracts from now on. I'll be doing the finish plumbing myself, thank you very much. Thanks again guys.

[freddy]

Most folks would have put this out for a bid price. Me thinks you where trying to get it for cheap. I Think you ripped them off enough. next time call some one else. Check the bars at 5 oclock, ask for the plumbers. That's the quality your wanting to pay for.:D

[drtyhands]

Most folks would have put this out for a bid price. Me thinks you where trying to get it for cheap. I Think you ripped them off enough. next time call some one else. Check the bars at 5 oclock, ask for the plumbers. That's the quality your wanting to pay for.:D
Freddy,

This poster who inquired has been respectfull.I may have let our Plumbdog slide with the exact same reply as your's,but that's only because he has a lot of time invested helping others including myself.

Bored freddy?

[PLUMBER RICK]

mrroundel, have you discussed your concerns with the contractor/ owner. there should be a middle ground. you are correct in thought that the prior billing should have given you a hint of what to expect.

it should have been put in writing so that both you and the plumber were on the same page. not sure if it's worth getting into a legal battle over this, but truthfully, you would win in my opinion as there was no written contract and the contractor would be breaking the laws of the business and practices of a plumbing contract. still not worth the legal battle, but just info for you.

rick.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks to the esteemed members who recognized that I have a legitimate concern here, and stuck up for board civility. To Freddy: Well...enjoy your apprenticeship, as it'll be long one.

I do realize that CA contractor law states that jobs exceeding $500 must have written estimates, and that I could make an issue. The problem is that my brother still uses this plumber, and needs someone who can provide his quality and reliability. Thanks for the information.

After backing out comments by a pure antagonist, I see that there there's really no consensus here on the way I was charged, therefore I'll probably let it go. Afterall, the bigger burn was the first job, with the exactly $2,000 materials bill. Do you guys charge triple retail for materials? I doubt that most of you do, as you'd probably no longer be in business. Lifetime apprentices generally aren't in charge of billing, so their input would be of no use here.

Thanks again guys. Most of you are a credit to your profession, I can tell.

[brucestorey]

Thanks to the esteemed members who recognized that I have a legitimate concern here, and stuck up for board civility. To Freddy: Well...enjoy your apprenticeship, as it'll be long one.

I do realize that CA contractor law states that jobs exceeding $500 must have written estimates, and that I could make an issue. The problem is that my brother still uses this plumber, and needs someone who can provide his quality and reliability. Thanks for the information.

After backing out comments by a pure antagonist, I see that there there's really no consensus here on the way I was charged, therefore I'll probably let it go. Afterall, the bigger burn was the first job, with the exactly $2,000 materials bill. Do you guys charge triple retail for materials? I doubt that most of you do, as you'd probably no longer be in business. Lifetime apprentices generally aren't in charge of billing, so their input would be of no use here.

Thanks again guys. Most of you are a credit to your profession, I can tell.
I am probably coming in a little late in this conversation, but it is a rarity for me to charge over retail for anything. I am sure that, like me, most plumbers here buy from a wholesaler at discounted prices. Most of the time, there is room for markup that would not cause materials to exceed the usual retail price. Of course there are certain things such as In-Sink-Erator products and many water heaters that are sold retail at about the same price we pay at the supply houses. Only in these cases, might I charge a noticeable markup that exceeds the usual retail price. You obviously understand the economics of this, based on what I have read, so I won't go into the justification of the reasons for markup. However, to charge triple retail across the board seems like robbery to me. I can make money on most items while keeping the price to my customers at or below retail. I am very fortunate to have some of the great discounts that I do. I share this fortune with my customers to keep them happy and loyal.

[freddy]

mrroundel,if the plumber you had was smart, he would not do any more work for you with out the price written out, and if it was me "you would pay me up front." before I would go to your job. As for the rest of your comments you be wrong again. Stick to selling widgets. I'am sure If the plumber involved were to be asked question about the job in question. The story would be 180 degrees different. Most people if they feel as they are ripped off call someone else, but not you. go figure. Advice For the next time. Ask for a firm price, and then stop penny pinching for every strap and nail the guy dose not use. Do your price shopping before the plumber goes to work on your job not after.
As far as you writing the contract, that the plumber is going to charge what you write in a contract, good luck with that HAHAHAHAHA Now that's funny
You guy in Cal. must be smoking something. Have a good life:)

[PLUMBER RICK]

I am probably coming in a little late in this conversation, but it is a rarity for me to charge over retail for anything. I am sure that, like me, most plumbers here buy from a wholesaler at discounted prices. Most of the time, there is room for markup that would not cause materials to exceed the usual retail price. Of course there are certain things such as In-Sink-Erator products and many water heaters that are sold retail at about the same price we pay at the supply houses. Only in these cases, might I charge a noticeable markup that exceeds the usual retail price. You obviously understand the economics of this, based on what I have read, so I won't go into the justification of the reasons for markup. However, to charge triple retail across the board seems like robbery to me. I can make money on most items while keeping the price to my customers at or below retail. I am very fortunate to have some of the great discounts that I do. I share this fortune with my customers to keep them happy and loyal.


ditto, ditto, ditto.

even on customers that price shop for toilets/ fixtures. i still beat their price 90% of the time. with faster availability.

just friday i had a customer that wanted a particular toto 1 pc. toilet in color. she got here best price and an eta of 4 weeks.

made 2 phone calls and will have it on tuesday, as monday is a holiday:D

still made some money, made customer very happy and she did all the homework.

your right. 3 times retail might work on a 50 cent washer, but anything else is a joke.

i compare it to a person trying to sell a can of coke for $7.50. we all can buy it in the store for $1.50- $2.00 a 6 pack. in a restaurant typically $1.50- $2.50 a glass with refills, or a bar $3.00 no refill:eek:

i am always going to be better than or the same as retail. i buy it right and sell it right. if i can't compete, i tell my customer to buy it. especially if it's custom.

rick.

[HVAC HAWK]

i don't know the amount the company i work for marks up but i know i is not a lot because we get most of our business from referrals and repeat work.
i know our service dept starts charging from the time they leave there last job until there done with clean up and paper work .
now i know that if your a reg customer then you get a break if we have to get parts .we do not do residential so our time is not watched as much as a home owner .
if i had to hire some one to do work in my house and there was nothing in writing then i would want a small break down of the parts for the first and 2nd time you work for me .once i trust you then that can stop .

do you charge to run out for parts that would be a normal stock idem on your truck but ran out ?

[ToUtahNow]

mrroundel,if the plumber you had was smart, he would not do any more work for you with out the price written out, and if it was me "you would pay me up front." before I would go to your job. As for the rest of your comments you be wrong again. Stick to selling widgets. I'am sure If the plumber involved were to be asked question about the job in question. The story would be 180 degrees different. Most people if they feel as they are ripped off call someone else, but not you. go figure. Advice For the next time. Ask for a firm price, and then stop penny pinching for every strap and nail the guy dose not use. Do your price shopping before the plumber goes to work on your job not after.
As far as you writing the contract, that the plumber is going to charge what you write in a contract, good luck with that HAHAHAHAHA Now that's funny
You guy in Cal. must be smoking something. Have a good life:)

freddy,

Now that you have been exposed as the least credible person on this site, and rude to boot, I’m not sure I understand your point. As a California Contractor I always wrote contracts for any remodel work I was bidding on. There were also occasions where I would sign a contract from the owner, GC or Developer of the project. As mrroundel posted he will offer the contract to the Trades person and if the Trades person and he cannot come to an agreement they will part ways. Just how do you do work where you are from and what was wrong with the method mrroundel is proposing?

Mark

[freddy]

Now that you have been exposed as the least credible person on this site.
Sorry, for now on I will be fully dressed so as not to offend you.

and rude to boot
What? I told him to have a good life

There were also occasions where I would sign a contract from the owner, GC or Developer of the project

Yeah very few I'am sure. Probably could count those on one hand.

Where I come from, I look the job over, and get up pricing for material and time estimated for me to do the job, and submit the bid. bing bang boom. The only thing different would be commercial work having to fall in line to security or safety issues, that they may require a agreement on to work the site. Never telling me what I 'am charging for the job.
Sorry you all don't like me. life short. I like stirring the pot.:D:D Get over it.

[mrs. westcoast]

Now that you have been exposed as the least credible person on this site.
Sorry, for now on I will be fully dressed so as not to offend you.

and rude to boot
What? I told him to have a good life

There were also occasions where I would sign a contract from the owner, GC or Developer of the project

Yeah very few I'am sure. Probably could count those on one hand.

Where I come from, I look the job over, and get up pricing for material and time estimated for me to do the job, and submit the bid. bing bang boom. The only thing different would be commercial work having to fall in line to security or safety issues, that they may require a agreement on to work the site. Never telling me what I 'am charging for the job.
Sorry you all don't like me. life short. I like stirring the pot.:D:D Get over it.

Why don't you tell us where you come from so we can maybe agree with you??:)

[brucestorey]

Why don't you tell us where you come from so we can maybe agree with you??:)
I know I haven't been here but a day or two, but from what I have seen so far, I am pretty sure he comes from under a bridge.

[ToUtahNow]

Now that you have been exposed as the least credible person on this site.
Sorry, for now on I will be fully dressed so as not to offend you.

and rude to boot
What? I told him to have a good life

There were also occasions where I would sign a contract from the owner, GC or Developer of the project

Yeah very few I'am sure. Probably could count those on one hand.

Where I come from, I look the job over, and get up pricing for material and time estimated for me to do the job, and submit the bid. bing bang boom. The only thing different would be commercial work having to fall in line to security or safety issues, that they may require a agreement on to work the site. Never telling me what I 'am charging for the job.
Sorry you all don't like me. life short. I like stirring the pot.:D:D Get over it.

freddy,

Your answer tells me volumes about your operation or lack there of. Typically any Contractor who is doing new construction or more than handyman work on remodels will offer a proposal to the GC or Developer and the GC or Developer will prepare their canned contract with your proposal information and pricing included. You may continue playing a plumber if you would like but your history of posts tells another story. As I have offered before I am more than willing to compare credential (and accomplishments for that matter) with you anytime you would like.

Mark

[bigPipe09]

I have a feeling freddy is a 14 year old girl playing the part of a plumber, or at least his knowledge of trade, and maturity level seem to be on par with one. ...

As far as charging 300% on material , i know its been said but i too try to beat retail pricing on all material. I have had problems wiwth certain customers who think they can save money by supplying their own fixtures, and in the end it ends up costing them more money and me more hassle installing inferior or incomplete products. So as a rule i like to be able to tell them truthfully that they will not save money by buying their own materials.

[HVAC HAWK]

I have a feeling freddy is a 14 year old girl playing the part of a plumber, or at least his knowledge of trade, and maturity level seem to be on par with one. ...


OK how did you find out the truth:D

[freddy]

Haters,Haters,Haters. Who's being rude now.:D

[drtyhands]

I know I haven't been here but a day or two, but from what I have seen so far, I am pretty sure he comes from under a bridge.

Quite perceptive Brucestorey.

Although I have seen Freddy contribute occasionally.

Every once in a while you'll see ToUtahNow(Mark) call troll.

Unless you've been back reading and already know that;)

[gear junkie]

[quote=bigPipe09;91465]I have a feeling freddy is a 14 year old girl playing the part of a plumber, or at least his knowledge of trade, and maturity level seem to be on par with one. ...
quote]

I have to disagree with you on this one Pipe. Freddy is probably a 17 year old pimple faced geeky kid who works as a stocker at a plumbing supply house. He sees these grown, mature plumbers and wishes that one day he could be like them. The problem is that he's useless stocking plumbing parts and everyone knows this and no one gives this poor kid any respect. His retaliation?

Go on a plumbing forum and create an alter ego as "real plumber" but it's not that simple. He has to "stir the pot" because that's his way of getting plumbers back. He can't "stir the pot" at the supply house because there's no wall of the internet to protect him. This is proven because he doesn't want his location known. or who he works for.

Let's not be mean to this poor kid. He's got social issues that extend far past his ignorance of the plumbing trade. So next time you're at the counter at your local supply house; and the kid peeks around the corner with envy in his eyes at the real plumbers, just give him a wave and say hi to Freddy.

[gear junkie]

Haters,Haters,Haters. Who's being rude now.:D

Pipe, I retract my earlier statement. Obviously Freddy resented your remark but he didn't deny it.

[DuckButter]

Markup on stock is normal, in fact it's good business practice.
I dunno 'bout other states, but the masters course in mine teaches this as prerequisite to the course as business math.
I do markup by percentage, on large ticket stock like boilers the percentage goes down because it's less time shopping and inventory.
Small stock is essential for markup, your time taking inventory and travelling to pick up isn't free, is it?
I DON'T mean this as insult, but if anyone is closing every contact because your price is lowest, you may want to take a look at your overall figures.
It's not a good sign if your bidding against other contractors and getting most of the work based on low price...effectively your driving your local market down. I worked far too hard, studied far too hard and spent far too much time/money to pride myself in working for low wages.
I don't know about anyone else, but I very often get work based on my references from prior customers or repeat from regulars based on the QUALITY of my work.(If you want cheap, get a "handyman" and try to sleep when that water heater fires on.)
Quality isn't cheap, rush through a job because you bid low and mistakes happen.
Bid low and at the end of the job when the reciepts add up you start to consider buying low end stock or cutting corners.
Also, referrals that come from "bargain hunters" often go like this - "Uncle Jim, I know a plumber thats real cheap, here's his number, see if his price on your remodel is lower than the 6 bids you already got."
I lose TONS of work because I openly admit to potential customers that I won't be the lowest bid.
I take great pride in that.
I'm not the priciest either, I beat larger companies for the obvious..less overhead for a small guy.
When I first made the decision to go self, I found an ad for some tools from a retiring plumber.
I went there and wound up buying well over $1K in tools from him, on the way out I knew it would be a great idea to ask his advise as a start-up...he was happy to part with some words:
"DON'T give in to customers who tell you they got a lower bid, let the lowballer get the work if thats what the customer wants, while you move on to the next customer who will pay the right price while your competition is busy working for food."
He had nothing to lose as he was retiring, he'd made a very good living and in return for my purchases he gave me something priceless.

[mrs. westcoast]

I lose TONS of work because I openly admit to potential customers that I won't be the lowest bid.
I take great pride in that.
I'm not the priciest either, I beat larger companies for the obvious..less overhead for a small guy.




Sounds like robert:)

[HVAC HAWK]

I lose TONS of work because I openly admit to potential customers that I won't be the lowest bid.
I take great pride in that.
I'm not the priciest either, I beat larger companies for the obvious..less overhead for a small guy.




Sounds like Robert:)

the company i work for is the same way ,we are not the cheapest but we are better then them . now let me explain ,we will get called in to fix things that another company has just fixed or installed and the customer is done dealing with them .so we do have a reputation around here for doing this .
we have some contractors that don't even put a job out for bid ,they just give it to us . thats why i have bin here from day one of the company 17 yrs.

[DuckButter]

I lose TONS of work because I openly admit to potential customers that I won't be the lowest bid.
I take great pride in that.
I'm not the priciest either, I beat larger companies for the obvious..less overhead for a small guy.




Sounds like robert:)

Robert's a success story in the making as far as I'm concerned.
The more I get to know him, the more respect I have for him.

[ToUtahNow]

Robert,

When I gave estimates to people who I could tell felt I was too high for them I gave them the name of a young guy I knew would do a good job at a lower price. Of course I told them I would do a better job but his job would make them happy.

Mark

[freddy]

Look here, only duckbutter was able to keep to the subject at hand. The rest of you are dreaming about 14 year old girls and 17 year old guys ( can you say perverts) And the rest are name calling. And you call yourself professionals HaHaHa The only one who even comes close to fitting that title on this board would be (dog)
If I hurt your feelings I'll do you a favor, and burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever, will that make you happy. Good!

I stand at what I said from my first post on this subject. End of story

[HVAC HAWK]

freddy dont go away mad

just go away

[JERRYMAC]

:)
Hey;
lets get away from the personal attacks and back to plumbing dicussions how about it guy's ???

i learned when i first started plumbing in the civilian world a plumber can not pay his overhead, off of labor alone;

and must markups on materials, and no where i ever worked in the field or as a contractor did i ever try t6o meet retail costs for materials, i used whatever the co. owner figured
their overhead cost were!!

i have worked for the cheapest plumber in town up to the highest priced both T & M and FLAT RATE!!!
both before and after running my own business, and working
for other contractors, i would reater work for a high price shop, with benifits like health, dental, 401k, etc,
and i don't feel i am cheating anybody!!
these same homeowner's you are worried about cheating
more then likely get all these, benifits where they work and whould be affronted if asked to give them up;
look at what airlines and auto makers go though when ever they want to lower prices!!

as most of you know union wages in new contrustion are much
higher then you usalley get on service and repair,
it was a long time before i found out why??
most people don't mind paying a extra 10 or 20,000 on new house loan, but scream bloodey murder about getting overcharged by what they pay on a service call!!

i just grin and bear it if i want to give it away i do free job's
for those i feel deserve it:D:D

JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBING & MASTER DRAINMAN:)

[PLUMBER RICK]

:)
as most of you know union wages in new contrustion are much
higher then you usalley get on service and repair,
it was a long time before i found out why??

JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBING & MASTER DRAINMAN:)

jerry i agree with all of your original post, except this one.

working both union new construction and service, the new construction wages/ hourly extras are no where close to what most of the service shops bill out at. the general contractor is way to smart to pay all those flat rate charges.

rick.

[DuckButter]

Jerry, don't know if we'd met yet, but glad you're here.
I don't take insult to anyone who prices differently, whether it be flat rate or hourly, as long as you don't go broke or rip people off.
I find it amazing that it gets so personal.
I think it has alot to do with that one moment at the end of the job when the customer asks what the damage is...for a brief moment I think most of us have a momentary struggle, a personal one that lessens over time with experience.
There ARE shops that go way overboard with service rates, usually they are the same shops that dole out serious cash to get their names out.
My theory is that they need to due to low repeat business, vicious cycle, but just my theory.

[westcoastplumber]

Jerry, don't know if we'd met yet, but glad you're here.
I don't take insult to anyone who prices differently, whether it be flat rate or hourly, as long as you don't go broke or rip people off.
I find it amazing that it gets so personal.
I think it has alot to do with that one moment at the end of the job when the customer asks what the damage is...for a brief moment I think most of us have a momentary struggle, a personal one that lessens over time with experience.
There ARE shops that go way overboard with service rates, usually they are the same shops that dole out serious cash to get their names out.
My theory is that they need to due to low repeat business, vicious cycle, but just my theory.


Duck, you said it, "As long as owners don't go broke or rip people off" there needs to be a happy medium price, a fair price for both parties involved. Sadly due to the new "plumbers" in unmarked vans, they have chosen to lower the market due to their reckless regard for the trade and the fact that it is "Just a Job" or a "Paycheck" " A fast buck" too them, when for many of us others it is a career, one we care about deply and one that feeds our families.

We as professionals need to clean out the rift raft, get rid of the fly by niters and the unlicensed group of individuals and raise the cost market back up, then and only then will customers understand the importance of hard work, codes, dependability and craftsmanship and will choose to pay the rates we all need to survive and make a good living.

It is the rift raft in the trade making the larger companies more appealing because once the rift raft screws up and cannot be held accountable for their mistakes, the customer has no choice but to go back to the larger company because of dependability, once we clean out the rift raft, and prove that we are dependable and trustworthy, the larger companies will loose business due to their outrageous rates. WE NEED TO CLEAN UP OUR TRADE GUY'S! TAKE PRIDE IN OUR WORK!! DON'T SELL OURSELVES CHEAP!!!!

It is our own fault, we had many of these same guy's digging our ditches because they did it for $100.00 day, we cut our own throats and now we need to fix our mess.

[PLUMBER RICK]

It is our own fault, we had many of these same guy's digging our ditches because they did it for $100.00 day, we cut our own throats and now we need to fix our mess.

don't look at me, i dig my own ditches:D, i just don't like to crawl under homes at my age:eek:

rick.

[plumbdog10]

I guess because I don't work in the service side of the business I find the debates that frequently happen on this forum interesting.

Here's a couple of outside opinions that you can take or leave:

1) Those who complain contractors are ripping off the customers are both correct morally, and wrong realistically. Companies in this country do not base their prices on fairness. That is one of the reasons I disagree with capitalism. But, if we are operating under that system, those contractors should charge what they want to charge.

2) I'm not sure an up-front price, though higher, is not more fair because the owner can then make an informed decision.

3) Those like Rick operate on a T&M basis, which when it is an honest guy like Rick, I think works fine. And he works with a select group of repeat customers, which works for him and them. Some start-up businesses don't have that ability.

Just some opinions.

[JERRYMAC]

Duck i posted the weekend you got married;

lots of luck by the way!!

JERRYMAC

[bigPipe09]

3) Those like Rick operate on a T&M basis, which when it is an honest guy like Rick, I think works fine. And he works with a select group of repeat customers, which works for him and them. Some start-up businesses don't have that ability.

Thats very true.It's long been said that its better to keep an old customer than to get a new one, and with the economy the way it is where i live there are alot of people being taken by contractors due to a labour shortage. There are more abd more people becoming aware of fly-by-nighters, and that can lead to an atmosphere of skepticism towards tradesmen in general. Being a new business owner of an unheard of company, i sometimes sense that people don't ttrust my pricing system, though i know it is on par with other local shops of the same size. But im starting to gain more and more repeat business, and the trust level between us and the customer seems to build quick. and like you said Plumbdog, when you have an honest guy and a customer who trusts him, it works very well for both parties.


p.s, Is Plumbdog admitting to being a communist? aha

[plumbdog10]

Thats very true.It's long been said that its better to keep an old customer than to get a new one, and with the economy the way it is where i live there are alot of people being taken by contractors due to a labour shortage. There are more abd more people becoming aware of fly-by-nighters, and that can lead to an atmosphere of skepticism towards tradesmen in general. Being a new business owner of an unheard of company, i sometimes sense that people don't ttrust my pricing system, though i know it is on par with other local shops of the same size. But im starting to gain more and more repeat business, and the trust level between us and the customer seems to build quick. and like you said Plumbdog, when you have an honest guy and a customer who trusts him, it works very well for both parties.


p.s, Is Plumbdog admitting to being a communist? aha

Communist, no.

The plumbdog is hard to categorize, but I would lead towards socialist, though I have quibbles with that economic system.

[Tieger plumbing]

I don't want to make this a flat-rate debate because I feel that debate has been done to death. These prices could have also been charged by a T&M plumber who was dishonest.

My son just called me to tell me his friend hired a plumbing company to come in to install a new 50-gallon water heater, 4" center set lav faucet and fix a leak at an upstairs shower. This was for a nice 20+ year old home which he had purchased for his parents in Woodland Hills.

The plumber said the marble shower pan was bad and gave them a number to call a guy to replace the pan. The leak remained the same after the pan replacement. As it turned out the problem was the marble penetration for the stems were not sealed and the water was leaking behind the escutcheons and down into the substrate. My son packed the penetrations with plumbers putty and what do you know the leak stopped.

They did a fine job of replacing the water heater but what else would you expect for a $1,800 50-gallon water heater replacement? :eek:

The lav faucet cost $800 to replace but the bulk of the cost was the $500 the plumber charged for the Price Pfister 4" Savannah center set. :eek:

I'm sorry but I don't care how you spin it this company might as well have worn a mask. That faucet probably cost the plumbing company around $100 and the plumber made a $400 profit which he gets 3% ($12) on. This type of thing is what gives some flat-rate plumbers a bad name.

Mark


The $1,800 for the replacement of the water heater may sound high BUT before one jumps to conclusions people have to take the following into consideration

1- What code was used to install the heater as California has quake requirements and that cost more to install

2- Was a permit pulled?

3- What type of flue piping was installed? double wall possibly?

4- What is the plumbers over head and was he union or non union

5- How much traveling time was required?

6- The T&P discharge could have been a problem.

7- Did the plumber take a Bacharach test (Fyrite Tech model 50 or 60) to make sure there is no spillage.

Sometimes just looking at the bottom line does not give all the details.

Everyone has to decide what they feel their worth is and if someone is willing to replace a 50 gallon gas fired water heater for $1,800 more power to them and if someone wants to install it for a home center and they are content being told what to charge ...Hey its their business

Possibly the plumber did a great job using dielectric fittings and installing a heat sink to prevent stratification of molecules and installed a gauge and did an updraft test and installed new valves and removed the plastic CHEAPO hot water tank drain valve and replaced it with a brass nipple and Brass hose bib and added a Tee for a recirculation line.

Sight unseen I would give the contractor the benefit of the doubt.

Almost anyone can AFTER the fact can say " Oh I could have done it cheaper"

Regarding mark up on the $100 faucet SUPPOSE they install it and it is defective WHO eats that time?

PF wont reimburse the installers time only give them parts back.

A Hefty mark up ensures the contractor makes a decent living in spite of poor quality control some manufacturers are known for.

It is insurance to protect the contractor like the AO Smith brand new 75 gallon leaker I installed and I took the hit for the time to take it out get a replacement and install another one.

If this guy is really over priced then the public will not use his services just like any other service.

I could post on here some of the prices I received and everyone was happy except the buildings regular plumber who was wondering why the building owners hired me although their in house plumber gave a price 1/4 of mine.

Quality in workmanship, ones standard of living, insurance, all play a part in pricing.

I was written up in cleaner magazine as the highest priced drain cleaner in my area yet there is a guy who charges $275 LESS for a 4" main sewer line cleaning then I do.

Am I a Crook or is this guy robbing himself and killing the industry?

Don't you think the accounts that should have the final word who they want to do the work?

I NEVER dare tell my accounts what they can afford, I give them a price take it or leave it

I have completed a job where I made over $90,000 profit in 3 months strictly T&M from one account and now he has given me 3 more buildings to do ALL T&M plus flat rape on a service contract.

More power to the $1,800 50 gallon installation as he probably did it 100% correct

Faucet cost $100........ installed price $500

How long was the shut down?

Did the existing valves hold or have to be replaced?

How did the faucet get attached to the water supply (possibly speedy risers and compression fittings)

Was the plumber nice enough to use plumbers stainless putty under the new faucet?

When installing a new faucet I found I always to connect to a waste line THUS we no longer are talking just installing a "faucet"

Did the installer have to use a new chrome plated double offset or waste bends and longer tail piece?

While the waste was apart did the plumber bother to snake out the line as now was the perfect opportunity?

How hard was it to remove the old faucet, did he have to cut it out.

Was the space empty that he had to work in OR did he have to waste a half hour as the folks removed the contents to made his work area easier to work in?

SIGHT UNSEEN I think the prices were fair and the home owners thought it was fair but someone NOT at the job site thinks its high.

One of the roofing contractors I work for just bought another car (he has 13 so far) the new one cost him $350,000+ WAS HE TAKEN? The darn thing doesn't even have all wheel drive so my car can beat his in the snow.

[All Clear Sewer]

don't look at me, i dig my own ditches:D, i just don't like to crawl under homes at my age:eek:

rick.


Rick your not that old yet.....rotflmao
I do it and I`m 42 :D
Dont like it, but I`ll do when I have too :D

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick your not that old yet.....rotflmao
I do it and I`m 42 :D
Dont like it, but I`ll do when I have too :D

i don't make a habbit of it. i have many other things that i can do and not crawl for a living. i still do home inspections which require crawling.

how many plumbers dig their own ditches? no helpers:D.

i do:p.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

not to be in competion, but I dig my own, to scared a labor is going to slap me with workers comp 2 hrs on the job;)

[ToUtahNow]

The $1,800 for the replacement of the water heater may sound high BUT before one jumps to conclusions people have to take the following into consideration

1- What code was used to install the heater as California has quake requirements and that cost more to install

2- Was a permit pulled?

3- What type of flue piping was installed? double wall possibly?

4- What is the plumbers over head and was he union or non union

5- How much traveling time was required?

6- The T&P discharge could have been a problem.

7- Did the plumber take a Bacharach test (Fyrite Tech model 50 or 60) to make sure there is no spillage.

Sometimes just looking at the bottom line does not give all the details.

Everyone has to decide what they feel their worth is and if someone is willing to replace a 50 gallon gas fired water heater for $1,800 more power to them and if someone wants to install it for a home center and they are content being told what to charge ...Hey its their business

Possibly the plumber did a great job using dielectric fittings and installing a heat sink to prevent stratification of molecules and installed a gauge and did an updraft test and installed new valves and removed the plastic CHEAPO hot water tank drain valve and replaced it with a brass nipple and Brass hose bib and added a Tee for a recirculation line.

Sight unseen I would give the contractor the benefit of the doubt.

Almost anyone can AFTER the fact can say " Oh I could have done it cheaper"

Regarding mark up on the $100 faucet SUPPOSE they install it and it is defective WHO eats that time?

PF wont reimburse the installers time only give them parts back.

A Hefty mark up ensures the contractor makes a decent living in spite of poor quality control some manufacturers are known for.

It is insurance to protect the contractor like the AO Smith brand new 75 gallon leaker I installed and I took the hit for the time to take it out get a replacement and install another one.

If this guy is really over priced then the public will not use his services just like any other service.

I could post on here some of the prices I received and everyone was happy except the buildings regular plumber who was wondering why the building owners hired me although their in house plumber gave a price 1/4 of mine.

Quality in workmanship, ones standard of living, insurance, all play a part in pricing.

I was written up in cleaner magazine as the highest priced drain cleaner in my area yet there is a guy who charges $275 LESS for a 4" main sewer line cleaning then I do.

Am I a Crook or is this guy robbing himself and killing the industry?

Don't you think the accounts that should have the final word who they want to do the work?

I NEVER dare tell my accounts what they can afford, I give them a price take it or leave it

I have completed a job where I made over $90,000 profit in 3 months strictly T&M from one account and now he has given me 3 more buildings to do ALL T&M plus flat rape on a service contract.

More power to the $1,800 50 gallon installation as he probably did it 100% correct

Faucet cost $100........ installed price $500

How long was the shut down?

Did the existing valves hold or have to be replaced?

How did the faucet get attached to the water supply (possibly speedy risers and compression fittings)

Was the plumber nice enough to use plumbers stainless putty under the new faucet?

When installing a new faucet I found I always to connect to a waste line THUS we no longer are talking just installing a "faucet"

Did the installer have to use a new chrome plated double offset or waste bends and longer tail piece?

While the waste was apart did the plumber bother to snake out the line as now was the perfect opportunity?

How hard was it to remove the old faucet, did he have to cut it out.

Was the space empty that he had to work in OR did he have to waste a half hour as the folks removed the contents to made his work area easier to work in?

SIGHT UNSEEN I think the prices were fair and the home owners thought it was fair but someone NOT at the job site thinks its high.

One of the roofing contractors I work for just bought another car (he has 13 so far) the new one cost him $350,000+ WAS HE TAKEN? The darn thing doesn't even have all wheel drive so my car can beat his in the snow.

Actually the price of the job ended up quite reasonable after all. What I did not realize was Price Pfister had moved their manufacturing operation from Los Angeles to South of the Border. As such the plumber had to go down into Mexico to pick up the faucet. No sooner did he get back with the faucet then he discovered the water heater was also made in Mexico. While he was down in Mexico picking up the water heater he hired a small boat and did a little sports fishing. To his surprise he caught the largest Dorado he had ever seen so he had to have it mounted.

So after you factor in the overhead of two trips to Mexico to pick up supplies, hiring the fishing boat, having the Dorado mounted, cost of the plumbing materials and the labor involved to install all of it the homeowner really got a pretty good deal. That is of course unless you include the money the homeowner wasted by the plumbers misdiagnosed shower pan problem.

Mark

[drtyhands]

i don't make a habbit of it. i have many other things that i can do and not crawl for a living. i still do home inspections which require crawling.

how many plumbers dig their own ditches? no helpers:D.

i do:p.

rick.

Man your alzheimer's is really taking hold Rick,

Gas line?:p

[PLUMBER RICK]

Man your alzheimer's is really taking hold Rick,

Gas line?:p

that gas line wasn't a ditch, it was a tiny moat that a kid at the beach could have dug:D

a ditch is where a person can jump into;)

rick.

[drtyhands]

that gas line wasn't a ditch, it was a tiny moat that a kid at the beach could have dug:D

a ditch is where a person can jump into;)

rick.

Rick..............Sooooo what your telling me is you dig the big stuff by yourself:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick..............Sooooo what your telling me is you dig the big stuff by yourself:D

me and my back. or my bosch, or ditch witch, or auger.

the deepest was 7':eek:

rick.

[drtyhands]

me and my back. or my bosch, or ditch witch, or auger.

the deepest was 7':eek:

rick.

Rick,I have seen your energy level on many occasions.I never doubted you;)
I was just teasing

[DuckButter]

I just dug a 20' X 2' by 3' deep ditch this week for a new house sewer main.
Homeowner says "Geesh, you doin' that by yourself?".
I said "Yes, I'm too damn cheap to pay for a health club membership".
I was kidding, but in all seriosness, I wasn't.

[Tieger plumbing]

Actually the price of the job ended up quite reasonable after all. What I did not realize was Price Pfister had moved their manufacturing operation from Los Angeles to South of the Border. As such the plumber had to go down into Mexico to pick up the faucet. No sooner did he get back with the faucet then he discovered the water heater was also made in Mexico. While he was down in Mexico picking up the water heater he hired a small boat and did a little sports fishing. To his surprise he caught the largest Dorado he had ever seen so he had to have it mounted.

So after you factor in the overhead of two trips to Mexico to pick up supplies, hiring the fishing boat, having the Dorado mounted, cost of the plumbing materials and the labor involved to install all of it the homeowner really got a pretty good deal. That is of course unless you include the money the homeowner wasted by the plumbers misdiagnosed shower pan problem.

Mark


See Mark, you do understand THINK about it if the factory had stayed in the US of A then folks would sneak into this country looking for a job, Now with the factory South of the boarder people from the LEFT Coast and Least coast can sneak across the Southern boarder and seek entitlements there.... SEE how the industry is helping by exporting the factory Black and Decker Bless their hearts for making America less crowded with the PF line

[plumbdog10]

See Mark, you do understand THINK about it if the factory had stayed in the US of A then folks would sneak into this country looking for a job, Now with the factory South of the boarder people from the LEFT Coast and Least coast can sneak across the Southern boarder and seek entitlements there.... SEE how the industry is helping by exporting the factory Black and Decker Bless their hearts for making America less crowded with the PF line

Tieger,

Reread Utah's quote. You're lost. Hey, Hey, Hey.

[biscuit]

I know this post is worthless, but all I can say to the post by "THE DOG" is "YEP" youre right!:D

[HVAC HAWK]

Tieger,

Reread Utah's quote. You're lost. Hey, Hey, Hey.

I'd say he is lost in more ways then just that one

[biscuit]

Damn, this thread has over 120 replies, this has got to be approaching some sort of record.

Who would have "thunk" it???