time and material or flat rate?

[PLUMBER RICK]

since this seems to be a very debatable topic:eek: lets put it out to the members here who have hired a plumber or other trade person in the past or are soon to hire that person.

here is the question.

this is for the person who ultimately pays the bill.

when you call a plumber or other trade person do you get a referral, or go look in the yellow pages/ internet?

do you want a trade person that works by time and materials (hourly)

or flat rate, a predetermined rate that covers both labor and materials?

do you as a homeowner have any idea of what the job should cost? do you have an idea of how long it should take and what the parts would cost? do you ask for a price break down?

do you put your trust in the trades person even if you have never used them before?

do you get any other estimates?

did you have a good or bad experience with the time and material trades person? good or bad with the flat rate trades person?

do you feel you paid too little, just right, or too much?


so in conclusion, what billing method do you prefer? please elaborate

will you continue to use the same company?


rick.


as you can read, i have not swayed the questions to favor 1 side or the other

[HVAC HAWK]

the company i work for does contract and T&M jobs and most of our work comes from repeat business or referral from other people .we just do commercial and industrial work [ no residential ] except for the owners of the business we work for .
the only time i ever ran into a flat rate type bill is with my repair an a car and did not like it .the price to do the job was for the mechanic to do it in 4hr and he was done in 1 1/2 hr but i had to pay for the 4 . they said that he was the best they had and if the others did it it would take 3 1/2 to 4 hr to do it .i said a couple not so nice things paid and never went back . passed on to some people i know and they passed it on to people they know and with in 6 months the shop closed up no business . I WONDER WHY

[plumberscrack]

I see alot of comparison of the service plumbing to automotive repair flat rate idea.

Homeowners arn't bringing their toilets and water heaters to my shop for repairs. (but that would be so awsum if they did):cool:

I think flat rate works pretty well for auto but definately not for plumbing. I mean come on, the alternator thingy on a Ford Taurus is going to be exactly like the next one, right?:confused:

As a T+M plumber I don't think it's fair that I participate in this poll.:p

[freddy]

when you call a plumber or other trade person do you get a referral, or go look in the yellow pages/ internet? ( I like to look on internet myself that referal thing is to wierd.)
do you want a trade person that works by time and materials (hourly)
or flat rate, a predetermined rate that covers both labor and materials? Most certainly flat rate, I would go broke by the hour thing.
do you as a homeowner have any idea of what the job should cost? ( yes I had it done before :D )
do you have an idea of how long it should take and what the parts would cost? do you ask for a price break down? It varies by the girl, And no I do not ask for a price break down. How rude!
do you put your trust in the trades person even if you have never used them before? Yes Yes Yes. do you get any other estimates? No time for that on the spot decision.did you have a good or bad experience with the time and material trades person? good or bad with the flat rate trades person?Saved a bundle useing flat rate. Dam That Girl was Hot :D:D:D

[Crappy days]

I just had A 16 seer ac/heating unit put in my home. The company is owned by a friend of mine. They were the most expensive out of the four bids, even with the 10 percent discount they gave me. He runs his shop with a flat rate book, Although expensive he gave me a better service and warranty proposal then any of the hourly shops. In fact he provided me with more decisions an option then any the other shops. His sales tech was by far the most professional. They also encountered several problems that caused more work, and as stated on the flat rate contract they did not increase there charges. I have since had them out 3 times to change damper settings and 1 register. This cost me nothing because they were the only shop which provided me with a lifetime duct and register warranty. In the experiences I have had with flat rate shops whether auto or otherwise, I have had no complaints. I am not saying there are not good T&M shops. The other three shops were T&M. All the T&M shops did not want to relocate my condenser, and were all in a hurry to leave. This was the experience I had, It made me kind of angry because not only have I done T&M but I am also a Fellow tradesman. The conclusion I have come to after talking with many T&M owners is unless you are a sole proprietor you have to charge 150.00 200.00 or you are just going to work yourself to death.

[Crappy days]

I just had A 16 seer ac/heating unit put in my home. The company is owned by a friend of mine. They were the most expensive out of the four bids, even with the 10 percent discount they gave me. He runs his shop with a flat rate book, Although expensive he gave me a better service and warranty proposal then any of the hourly shops. In fact he provided me with more decisions an option then any the other shops. His sales tech was by far the most professional. They also encountered several problems that caused more work, and as stated on the flat rate contract they did not increase there charges. I have since had them out 3 times to change damper settings and 1 register. This cost me nothing because they were the only shop which provided me with a lifetime duct and register warranty. In the experiences I have had with flat rate shops whether auto or otherwise, I have had no complaints. I am not saying there are not good T&M shops. The other three shops were T&M. All the T&M shops did not want to relocate my condenser, and were all in a hurry to leave. This was the experience I had, It made me kind of angry because not only have I done T&M but I am also a Fellow tradesman. The conclusion I have come to after talking with many T&M owners is unless you are a sole proprietor you have to charge 150.00 200.00 an hour or you are just going to work yourself to death.

[plumbdog10]

I'm going to weigh-in with the following: I am a plumber, but have never worked in the service and repair end. If it was me, as a homeowner, I think I would rather have the price up-front. That way I could shop prices.

That would exclude the idea that I had used someone like Rick, who is weird, but I would trust. At that point, I would want t&m.

Crack:

I come from a family of mechanics, don't denagrate their trade, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[gear junkie]

Is the poll questions geared more towards customers and not toward plumbers' or did I read the questions wrong?

I contend that flate rate and T&M doesn't matter. A dishonest person is going to rip someone off no matter what method of pricing they use. I believe flat rate pricing protects a consumer more because the price is known upfront. It doesn't matter if they don't know that 1800 is alot for a water heater. If they don't shop around for the best price, then a fool and his money are soon parted. Making that statement, I do not condone ripping people off and I do fair, flat rate pricing.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I'm going to weigh-in with the following: I am a plumber, but have never worked in the service and repair end. If it was me, as a homeowner, I think I would rather have the price up-front. That way I could shop prices. dog you would shop prices, but the ones that don't, buyer beware:eek:

That would exclude the idea that I had used someone like Rick, who is weird, but I would trust. At that point, I would want t&m.
i guess that's a good thing:confused:

Crack:

I come from a family of mechanics, don't denagrate their trade, you have no idea what you are talking about.

dog i can understand what crack was referring too.

what he meant is that cars being massed produced and after you broke your knuckles on the first (1999 ford taurus) the rest of that model years cars will be gravey. each should be identical and your time should only get faster with less blood sweat and tears:D

sort of like the first time i had to replace a toilet seat on a 1 pc. american standard vent away toilet. first one was tuff. after that i had it figured out.


dog, offer still goes for thursday;)
how about saturday:confused:

sorry guys, most of you are geographically undesirable:D

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

[quote=gear junkie;80521]Is the poll questions geared more towards customers and not toward plumbers' or did I read the questions wrong?
quote]

well i was hoping for answers from non tradesmen.
i guess i should have posted it in the general forum.

still it will be interesting to read the results.

please use the polling feature to post what applies.

thanks,

rick.

[Crappy days]

Dog, I did not denigrate the mechanical field. If you read my post again you will see I said. I have had no problem with mechanics or any other profession that flat rates. In fact I do know what I'm talking. My father worked as President of Subaru of New England for over twenty years. At the hight of his career he ran /oversaw over 100 hundred dealerships plus many other business owned by Ernie Bock. As a kid I worked at the parts warehouse in mass. and was constanly dealing with mechanics. My Father was loved by all the Mechanics that worked for him, seeing as he started as a blue colar worker in a toyota parts warehouse.

[Gofor]

Don't know how to answer your poll. The first thing I look for is someone who will give me a free estimate. When they come and look at the job, I then get to talk with them, observe what they check, etc, and we talk about what will and won't be done. I ask questions. The person that can logically explain why it has to be done such & such, and appears to me to know his trade usually gets the job. Price is a factor, but I have gone both with a flat charge for the job and also time/materials, and most times it has not been the lowest estimate. The person that blows me off or gives me the impression that they think I am too stupid to understand the mechanical workings of things never gets the job. The person who never looks at what is wrong and gives me an estimate seldom gets the job. (If it is a repair, he definitely does not get the job). The person that keeps "finding" things that should have been included to start with goes home with time paid for and is never called again, by me or my acquaintances and relatives. I probably have paid for extras I did not need, but I mostly end up satisfied I have gotten what I paid for.
I have stopped a job when the guy who gave the estimate/ price quote was knowledgeable, but the slackers who showed up to do the job were dopers off the street. (It was a roofing job). A new crew was brought in. The guy leading the new group had tattoos all over, a ponytail, and looked like a skinny Hell's Angel (never seen a fat roofer), but he could lay some shingles and had that crew hopping. They ended up getting three referrals after I found the first idiots were "let go". The people I referred them to were happy with the work they got also.
I guess the answer for me as a home owner is I have to get a feel for the people I am going to pay first. Flat rate or time/materials, I have to get a bit of trust in who I am dealing with. To put it in perspective, tho, I'm an old codger that does not buy a tool off the I'Net sight unseen, or out of a catalogue. Got to see what I'm gettin'. Grew up too close to Missouri, I guess:D
I believe in giving someone fair price for the work or product. "Fair" being determined by the market place. "Do the job" being determined by my ability to pay for it. I also believe a man's word is his bond (altho I get it in writing:)), and if I catch you in a deliberate lie, we are done doing business.

A customer's viewpoint

Go

[ToUtahNow]

I'm going to weigh-in with the following: I am a plumber, but have never worked in the service and repair end. If it was me, as a homeowner, I think I would rather have the price up-front. That way I could shop prices.

That would exclude the idea that I had used someone like Rick, who is weird, but I would trust. At that point, I would want t&m.

Crack:

I come from a family of mechanics, don't denagrate their trade, you have no idea what you are talking about.

dog,

Generally speaking they do not give you a price over the phone you have to pay a $49.95 service call so they can see your job before they give you a price. How much shopping can you afford to do aqt that price?

Mark

[BHD]

I don't think it is IF it is flat rate or T&M it is that it has a sense of reasonableness or fairness to the end price,

When some one shows up and is there for short amount of time and walks out asking for more money than what there living room furniture cost, or a good used car could be bought for, and all they did was change out a $350 hot water heater and a faucet. It does not matter if it was a flat rate or if it considered time and materials, it is was the guy ripped off.

The real discussion is Fairness and Decency, not how one arrives at the final price price.

If as a consumer it does not matter if it gasoline or plumbing or a soft drink or other things, it is if I feel, I was fairly treated and or if I was taken advantage of for the product or the service rendered.

[freddy]

The real discussion is Fairness and Decency, not how one arrives at the final price price.

If as a consumer it does not matter if it gasoline or plumbing or a soft drink or other things, it is if I feel, I was fairly treated and or if I was taken advantage of for the product or the service rendered.

Well said BHD If the T&M guys would just get off (flat rate price book) guys a$$ about how much we charge, and leave it up the consumer. We could all be at peace. But That will not happen anytime soon.:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

The real discussion is Fairness and Decency, not how one arrives at the final price price.

If as a consumer it does not matter if it gasoline or plumbing or a soft drink or other things, it is if I feel, I was fairly treated and or if I was taken advantage of for the product or the service rendered.

Well said BHD If the T&M guys would just get off (flat rate price book) guys a$$ about how much we charge, and leave it up the consumer. We could all be at peace. But That will not happen anytime soon.:D

that is my point exactly. the consumer is not typically up to date on prices. when they do know prices, they would throw the person out the door.

if you and i were on the same job, you flat rate and me t&m($80.00) you would never get 1 job. and i know i would still make money and the customer would have the job completed by me, not some "tech" sent from the shop.

freddy still waiting to figure out what you do and where you do it:confused: everyone else on this topic is well known. got no idea if your an owner, contractor, journeyman, tech, apprentice, handyman? the geographics should also factor into the cost of doing business. last time i checked, los angeles has about the highest cost for housing, and insurance, not to mention gas. so location does play a role along with what codes are enforced.

still waiting, not a trick question.

rick.

[freddy]

"the consumer is not typically up to date on prices."
Your right when I go to the doctor I do not know what the X-ray machine cost me until I presented with the bill When I go to the denist I do not know what the cost of the filling material might be or for that matter what it is. But I still go and pay the price. AND I'am satified that the service was rendered.
Same goes for plumbing or any other service. unless you needed it you generally do not know the price, until you shop around. Rick plumber $ 80.00 hr Me 165.00 average Hr.
Install home owners supplied 30.00 kit faucet 135.00 with ss supply. Very happy customer, will be calling me again. the way I see it I work half as hard as you to make about the same money at the end of the year. Works for me
Do you go to someone home to give them your price and then tell them the guy down the road is 20.00 cheaper? Why not ? IMO there more to my service than fast change out of the faucet. Soo is my faucet price robbing the customer,told them the price before I started. don't get mad because I'am working less hours and making as much $$$$:D:D:D

[Crappy days]

Rick, I do not want to start any problems but I'm curious. Do you provide your customers with 24 hour 7 days a week service. Do you work holidays. I think that 80 dollars an hour is very fair( on the low end for CA). However if that is what works for you great.

[franklie]

what GoFor said.:D

[plumberscrack]

Dog, I did not denigrate the mechanical field. If you read my post again you will see I said. I have had no problem with mechanics or any other profession that flat rates. In fact I do know what I'm talking. My father worked as President of Subaru of New England for over twenty years. At the hight of his career he ran /oversaw over 100 hundred dealerships plus many other business owned by Ernie Bock. As a kid I worked at the parts warehouse in mass. and was constanly dealing with mechanics. My Father was loved by all the Mechanics that worked for him, seeing as he started as a blue colar worker in a toyota parts warehouse.

Crappy I'm pretty sure Dog was talking to me when he said that not you but way to stick it to him.:D

Dog why would I disparage another service industry? I'm a plumber for Gods sake! You and I are pretty far down the evolutionary ladder. Besides Rick made my point very clear.

[ToUtahNow]

Do you go to someone home to give them your price and then tell them the guy down the road is 20.00 cheaper? Why not ?

I don't know about Rick but I made it a practice to recommend cheaper guys who I trusted when I knew the owner was in a bind. It usually helped both of us as the cheaper guy called us for the jobs he could not handle.

Mark

[Crappy days]

I mistakenly thought he was talking to me. After I realized this,I sent an apology to dog. It was an honest mistake sorry.

[plumbdog10]

dog i can understand what crack was referring too.

what he meant is that cars being massed produced and after you broke your knuckles on the first (1999 ford taurus) the rest of that model years cars will be gravey. each should be identical and your time should only get faster with less blood sweat and tears:D

sort of like the first time i had to replace a toilet seat on a 1 pc. american standard vent away toilet. first one was tuff. after that i had it figured out.


dog, offer still goes for thursday;)
how about saturday:confused:

sorry guys, most of you are geographically undesirable:D

rick.

You don't know what you're talking about either. You guys sound like the same idiots that get on this forum and believe that plumbing is easy.

It's called diagnosis Rick. It's hard to find a real mechanic today. All they know how to do is replace parts. If it doesn't work replace another. Real mechanics practice an art, as do plumbers. I don't like people who be-little our trade, and I think we should respect other trades.

[Woussko]

I'm with THE DOG on this one. A real mechanic needs to also be a machinist type. He/she needs to find out what the real problem (most likely it's user-owner issues) and work from there. Replacing parts time and again doesn't really deal with the problem.

Every customer is different. No two repair jobs will be exactly the same.

[gear junkie]

I am a plumber, but have never worked in the service and repair end.


Aren't you the ultimate parts changer having never done service and repair? That leaves ----installation? So you can read some blueprints and do new installation. Good for you Dog!! You talk about people who belittle our trade? Are you kidding me?! You're one of them. You bring more negative, spiteful comments than anyone on this forum. Don't let a DIY or a new guy on this forum ask a question. The Dog will sick 'em. Get a life.

[PLUMBER RICK]

You don't know what you're talking about either. You guys sound like the same idiots that get on this forum and believe that plumbing is easy.

It's called diagnosis Rick. It's hard to find a real mechanic today. All they know how to do is replace parts. If it doesn't work replace another. Real mechanics practice an art, as do plumbers. I don't like people who be-little our trade, and I think we should respect other trades.


dog you got to be kidding me:rolleyes:

hopefully from reading some of my posts over the last few years, you should see that i specialize in the diagnosis of plumbing problems. replacing the entire system is not what i tend to do or recommend.

once again, what i was referring to was that a modern day car is built identical to the one that was built 1 day before and 1 day after. hence henry ford and the assembly line of modern day. sure diagnoising 1 of a kind issues take time, but once they diagnoise the issue, they know the repair and time it should take. same reason an insurance co. uses a price book / computer program for body shop repairs.

a plumbing system installed in 1 home or business is totally different from home to home or business to business. there is no way to say the job will take x amount of hours site unseen as there is no identical installation in plumbing from job to job, location to location.

a flat rate plumbing book price will cover the slowest non skilled tech and still make money for the company.

an auto mechanic should basically know the vehicle well enough, sight unseen and know the amount of time required based on past work experience of that model.

granted, without unforeseen surprises, i already know how long a given job will take me and therefore i can schedule my day based on my work load for the day. add travel to my day and i can tell mrs seat down what time to expect me for dinner:D

i've always kidded my customers that needed me when i wasn't available to bring it to my shop and i'll have time to look at it:D sort of like how a dr. puts you in an empty exam room and you wait for the dr. to come in to see you. with enough exam rooms they can juggle 5 patients at once.

same with the automotive dealerships. they never work on just 1 car at a time.

dog, i hope you see my point of this. i never knocked an auto mechanic. i thought i helped explain plumberscrack remark.

when i did new construction plumbing and ran the finish crew. we were only given 1 hour per fixture. some were gravy, such as tub and shower trim. and some were much more than 1 hour. such as a complete kitchen sink with faucet, disposal, hot water dispenser, filter, shut offs, and trap with 2 part waste. i would prefab as much as possible and it was like mass production, assembly line.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick, I do not want to start any problems but I'm curious. Do you provide your customers with 24 hour 7 days a week service. Do you work holidays. I think that 80 dollars an hour is very fair( on the low end for CA). However if that is what works for you great.

my office phone and cell phone are avaliable 24 hours a day. and yes i will pick up the phone and go at 3am if it's a true emergency.

since i work by myself, i can only be at 1 place at a time. i do work saturdays. holidays if an emergency. when i'm out of town, my buddies company will be referred and will bill the customer as there own customer. no money comes to me or billing.

rick.

[Crappy days]

Rick, I can see that our company's structures are very different. Not that mine is right or wrong just different. I am open 24/7 year round. When you call you get either my office girl my brother or my self. My customers decide if its an emergency. In the last six months I cannot remember a call we didn't get to the same day if need be. I have techs that work split shifts and therefor we are always available. I keep our schedule light enough to handle just about any emergency, but filled enough to make a profit and keep my techs happy.

[Australian Plumber Josh]

Still a hotly debated topic i see.

A few comments from me from a consumers point of view.

Ive always dabbled in property and recently qualified and became Licensed as a Builder. Im in the latter stages of building another house.(Will I ever learn?!)

When selecting contractors for various trades i like to go for a fixed price after getting my fingers burnt once. I only ask people who come reccomended to me to price the job, and once i find someone good at their trade and professional in approach i use them regularly.

It is only after establishing a working relationship with some one that i will be willing to go with time and material pricing.Bear in mind that typically these are not 1-2 hour type jobs.

I know my situation is different to maintenance work, but i can see both sides of the argument.

Fixed price from a book or a fixed price arrived at by inspecting and tendering a job do give the consumer peace of mind. The price may be a little higher than t & m but thats the cost of a fixed price.

If i know a tradesperson, and know that its them i want for the job above others i will go for t & m.It comes down to a personal choice.

If you find some one good at their job, whether it be a trade or professional service then stick with them. Atrue professional appreciates return business and will bend over backwards for their regulars.

[freddy]

You don't know what you're talking about either. You guys sound like the same idiots that get on this forum and believe that plumbing is easy.

It's called diagnosis Rick. It's hard to find a real mechanic today. All they know how to do is replace parts. If it doesn't work replace another. Real mechanics practice an art, as do plumbers. I don't like people who be-little our trade, and I think we should respect other trades.

Plumbing is easy Glue & pipe 3 things to remember, **** rolls down hill, fridays payday, and the boss is an a$$.:D
Most things built today are designed to break down,and it's cheaper to replace the whole unit, than repair. You may not have know that because you don't do that work. As far as the trade goes, as long as the big box store are buying up the suppy house, and plumbers think charge 80.00 hr is a good thing, the trade will keep going down IMO :)

[Australian Plumber Josh]

I never claim that plumbing is easy.

[PLUMBER RICK]

You don't know what you're talking about either. You guys sound like the same idiots that get on this forum and believe that plumbing is easy.

It's called diagnosis Rick. It's hard to find a real mechanic today. All they know how to do is replace parts. If it doesn't work replace another. Real mechanics practice an art, as do plumbers. I don't like people who be-little our trade, and I think we should respect other trades.

Plumbing is easy Glue & pipe 3 things to remember, **** rolls down hill, fridays payday, and the boss is an a$$.:D
Most things built today are designed to break down,and it's cheaper to replace the whole unit, than repair. You may not have know that because you don't do that work. As far as the trade goes, as long as the big box store are buying up the suppy house, and plumbers think charge 80.00 hr is a good thing, the trade will keep going down IMO :)


4th. time asking you.

what is your position in the plumbing field and where do you operate your business?

seems like everyone else that is this outright so involved in this topic is not afraid to tell us their position or location.

we already know what your hiding from your statements, know just back it up with the facts.

amazing that you think by charging $80.00 an hour is bring down the trade.

from what i see, it's people like you that are flat rate that bring down the trade.

a customer is more involved when they are paying by time. if they see one is not qualified and the clock is ticking they will get nervous as the price is growing.

now take the flat rate job. the customer already has authorized the soon to be overpriced job. it doesn't matter how long the qualified or under qualified tech takes to do the job.


when you think you can compete with me on a one on one basis, i'll be glad to take your money.

lets see 32 years in the same trade, in one of the largest markets in the usa yrs. an unknown who talks trash with unknown experience from an unknown location who has nothing useful to contribute.

one would be a fool to to take you serious.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

Don’t get so emotionally involved in this discussion. There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to flat-rating. That does not mean one system is any better than the other it just means one is easier to abuse than the other. Properly done there is nothing wrong with flat rate pricing.

The arguments in favor of flat-rating are always the same and generally started by the guy making millions by selling the system along with the required never ending subscription fee. When I listen to these guys they always remind me of the Real Estate guys who's making millions of dollars selling you systems which promise to make you millions with no investment of your own. Of course if it was that easy they would be making millions in Real Estate instead of selling their “secrets” to others.

Here are the things which I think will need to change before flat-rate pricing for plumbing will get the respect some believe it needs.

Be up front with their hourly rate so that a customer can do comparison shopping and make an informed decision.
Do not stack repairs on top of each other as arrival time and set up is built into each repair already.
Learn the difference between “cost of sales” and “cost of lost sales”.
Use qualified plumbers not helpers who you call “techs”.
Stop comparing themselves to a Surgeon because there is not even a close comparison.
Use their own burdens in the flat-rate formula not a canned burden arrived at by the people selling the system.
Stop using the argument the customer knows up front what it will cost when you intentionally do not give them a price until you are in their home, they are a captive audience and you have their service call fee in your pocket.There is a lot of money to be made in the service and repair business. The majority of our work as a T&M shop was based on a competitively bided prices based on real-world circumstances found on the job. There were no surprises because the customer knew before we started how much the job was going to cost. Plumbers do not need a book to tell them how many hours to charge for a job because they have been doing it long enough to know how long it takes.

I inter act with a bunch of different plumbers from a bunch of different companies every day. With in a very short time I can tell you which company is honorable and which is not. I can also tell you who is hiring salesmen/techs and who is hiring plumbers. These shops may fool the customer but they’re not going to fool a guy who has been there and done that.

Mark

[wwsmith]

The majority of our work as a T&M shop was based on a competitively bided prices based on real-world circumstances found on the job. There were no surprises because the customer knew before we started how much the job was going to cost. Plumbers do not need a book to tell them how many hours to charge for a job because they have been doing it long enough to know how long it takes.

Been following this thread with some levels of curiousity more than anything I suppose. I am however simply just curious about something that occurred to me just now. Say a new home is being constructed and the owner or contractor is shopping for a plumber to do that part of the work.


Would a T&M person come in and give a "quote" of say X number of hours at $Y per hour?
Or would they just know it would probably take N number of hours from experience and give a price that is still based on a T&M scale leaving it open that it could go up or down depending on how things go?
Would a flate rate person come in and say $Z to do it all including fixtures?
And if so, how do I know how long the flat rate person will be? Would that person also say "I'll have it done in M days/hours/weeks"?
I only ask as I have really not much knowledge to base any of this on never having had to deal with it all that much. But the information may be useful to me in the future or help guide me in formulating an opinion. :o

[ToUtahNow]

Been following this thread with some levels of curiousity more than anything I suppose. I am however simply just curious about something that occurred to me just now. Say a new home is being constructed and the owner or contractor is shopping for a plumber to do that part of the work.


Would a T&M person come in and give a "quote" of say X number of hours at $Y per hour?
Or would they just know it would probably take N number of hours from experience and give a price that is still based on a T&M scale leaving it open that it could go up or down depending on how things go?
Would a flate rate person come in and say $Z to do it all including fixtures?
And if so, how do I know how long the flat rate person will be? Would that person also say "I'll have it done in M days/hours/weeks"?I only ask as I have really not much knowledge to base any of this on never having had to deal with it all that much. But the information may be useful to me in the future or help guide me in formulating an opinion. :o

A traditional T&M Plumbing shop would estimate the cost of plumbing a new home based on a set of plans and specs for the job and then give the owner a contract price to complete the job.

Generally speaking the flat-rate company would not take the job because they do not have anyone qualified to do the work and there is not enough profit in the job to make it worth doing.

Mark

[Crappy days]

Alright I know you guys do not like Flat rate but lets get things right. The software I bought did not come with prefixed charge amounts. It did come with prefixed times, how ever they can be altered to what ever I feel is appropriate. And there is no annual or renewal fee I am paying. Some of the most successful public companies are flat rate. So I guess what you guys are saying is damn anyone who is striving to have regularity in there pricing, and financial success in there business. The reason I purchased the software was to benefit both the customers and myself. Obviously if flat rate was so horrible then no one would continue to use flat rate company's. The consumers I deal with are not as stupid as people have made them out to sound. Again I think its more about the man or women running the company if there honest then there pricing will be to.

[Crappy days]

Most company's call there plumbers technicians because it is considered to be a better term or more professional. Just like legal assistant instead of secretary, I do not make the rules I just follow them.

[ToUtahNow]

Alright I know you guys do not like Flat rate but lets get things right. The software I bought did not come with prefixed charge amounts. It did come with prefixed times, how ever they can be altered to what ever I feel is appropriate. And there is no annual or renewal fee I am paying. Some of the most successful public companies are flat rate. So I guess what you guys are saying is damn anyone who is striving to have regularity in there pricing, and financial success in there business. The reason I purchased the software was to benefit both the customers and myself. Obviously if flat rate was so horrible then no one would continue to use flat rate company's. The consumers I deal with are not as stupid as people have made them out to sound. Again I think its more about the man or women running the company if there honest then there pricing will be to.

crappy,

I was not speaking of anyone in particulars company as you've already said your company is hybrid in that you have some customer who are still at T&M. The ones who have set prices and never ending subscription fees are the national franchises and those who use the PPM.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Most company's call there plumbers technicians because it is considered to be a better term or more professional. Just like legal assistant instead of secretary, I do not make the rules I just follow them.

I do not have a problem with a company who calls their plumbers "tech". I do have a problem with a company who calls their techs "plumber" when they are not.

Mark

BTW: There is just as big a difference between a Legal Assistant and a Secretary.

[Crappy days]

Mark , Ask any legal assistant who has her panties in a bunch whether she prefers to be called secretary or legal assistant and then you will see the difference. All I am saying is when I joined this forum I guess I expected more form it. As professionals we should be striving to help one another to succeed, not tear each other down. In my experience the truth always comes out. The company's who are ripping people off always end up getting exposed. As I have worked in this Field I have seen both T&M and flat rate shops exposed for the frauds they are .

[freddy]

What would going head to head have to do with you charging 80.00 and me charging 165.00 prove, sure you get more work dumb a$$ I am just letting you know, I have handy men in my area charging you rate!! I would hope you would be more skill than they. Just not bussiness skill apparently. Please don't get on your soap box about how many tools you got 3 of. I take care of my tools they last many years,I don't need 3 of anything, if you know how to use them correctly
If I came to you area and charged 40.00 hr I steal your customers/shoppers from you any day of the week. Big Deal
I'll still charge the rip off prices as you would call them. Because I am worth every penny of that and more. Got to go to work now.:p

[Crappy days]

Freddy, not that I'm one to stick up for Rick. But I can say honestly from watching this forum he does care about the trade. I think the big difference is in business models. Rick works for himself and from what everyone says is very comfortable. Although I do not charge 165.00 or 80.00 an hour ,I do not see anything wrong with it as long as the two of you are happy. As I said in a previous post in the end the customer will decide what is appropriate. We have all had customers who think we charge to much and some who think we charge to little.

[ToUtahNow]

Mark , Ask any legal assistant who has her panties in a bunch whether she prefers to be called secretary or legal assistant and then you will see the difference. All I am saying is when I joined this forum I guess I expected more form it. As professionals we should be striving to help one another to succeed, not tear each other down. In my experience the truth always comes out. The company's who are ripping people off always end up getting exposed. As I have worked in this Field I have seen both T&M and flat rate shops exposed for the frauds they are .

crappy,

I think I have already said it is not the system it is the operator and either system can be corrupt. I don't think we disagree the important part is the end result and not necessarily how you get there.

My point about the Secretary versus the Legal Assistant is pretty much the same as the difference between a plumber and someone who is called a plumber and is not. To be a Legal Assistant requires you go to school and get a degree or Certificate. Being a Secretary requires you fill out an application. With the Legal Assistant there is a basis for their traning which you can rely on. With a Secretary it is the luck of the draw as to abilities. However, just like in plumbing there is good and bad people regardless of training.

Mark

[freddy]

Crappy as my days are probably coming to and end on this board ( right rick ) there is not much help or support just a few out spoken old timers who see the glass as half empty only. Keep going the way of your thinking and don't listen to rick on this subject.. Read the trade magazines, that would be a good source of info as would others boards. Good Luck to You :)

[ToUtahNow]

freddy,

Rick does not own this site and could not remove you if he wanted to. However, I believe a little mutal respect is due to both of you.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

freddy still waiting to hear what you do for a living and where you do it.

at $165.00 an hour i hope it's in hawaii.

of course you could make something up like others and continue to keep us clueless. or you can be proud of what you do and where you live:confused:

a very simple question that everyone else proudly displays on their bio.

good luck trying to live and run a licensed and insured plumbing company here in los angeles for 40.00 an hour.

at $165.00 an hour you might be able to be my neighbor. but then again it's taken me 32 years of work to buy what i have. no one ever said you will get rich overnight. you just might be the exception to the rule.

if you work hard, are honest and have a good reputation, 1 day you might be able to afford any tool or piece of equipment for a trade that most of us are in for the long haul. not here today and gone tomorrow.

i guess i'll still continue waiting till you answer a simple question or get bored and move on:confused:

rick.

[HVAC HAWK]

ya Freddy how come you don't post the place you do your work ,afraid some one might come to your town and charge less $ and take your work away:eek::eek:

rick i hate it to when some one is chicken when they don't answer a question when some one asks one .

[PLUMBER RICK]

thanks charlie. dog was always a big believer in posting ones occupation and location. i can see why. hard to figure why he continues to ignore a non trick question:confused:

i think freddy was "ecs" in his prior post. same m.o.

maybe you could sick the hounds on him:D

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

For what it is worth I often look at the Threads a user starts to help size them up.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

Mark- You look at the Thread? I look at the feet:D

Only Kidding-Just thought I would add some levity to the situation.

Joey

she forgot to mention i wear a size 13:D
rick.

[HVAC HAWK]

o yes god old "ecs" the good old chats :D:D

[Drip Leg]

Does anyone here have a truck charge?

Covers wear and tear on cables, blades, machinery, and tools, fuel charges, saftey devices and various consumables.

[Crappy days]

I charge an additional fee on top of the first hour to cover such expenses. Unless it is a flapper change out or something of that nature.

[gear junkie]

I add a "chemtech" charge. Stands for "chemical and technical". This is material not written on invoice but you use. Paper towels, snake oil, sandpaper, any consumable item you use but don't write down.

[drtyhands]

Crappy as my days are probably coming to and end on this board ( right rick ) there is not much help or support just a few out spoken old timers who see the glass as half empty only. Keep going the way of your thinking and don't listen to rick on this subject.. Read the trade magazines, that would be a good source of info as would others boards. Good Luck to You :)
This OLD TIMER who charges T&M is inviting you out for a little mountain bike ride:p

Don't leave the forum I haven't even had my chance to play;)

If you stay you will have a chance to learn more about plumbing (without having to charge the customer for it):eek:

[ToUtahNow]

This OLD TIMER who charges T&M is inviting you out for a little mountain bike ride:p



A friend of mine who has worked as an Expert (GC) for as long as I have been doing Expert work. He is about 3-months older than I am which makes him 54-years old. His passion is mountain biking and he is really good at it. Recently one of the husbands of a para-legal challenged him to mountain biking. The husband happens to be a retired pro skate boarder and he brought his friend who is a pro BMX racer.

Fred had 12-miles in by the time he met the two and then they rode 24-miles together. Both of the younger guys were surprised to see they could not keep up with the old guy. I did something similar in a Whitewater Guide class I took a few years back where I surprised a bunch of college kids. I could not do it today but it sure was fun making these young guys question their abilities.

Mark:D

[Crappy days]

There are times on this forum I will come across as a young twit. But I suppose any private business owner, wants to think he knows it all at times. I find my greatest inspiration in the men and women I choose to model my life after. Generally these are my elders, these are people who can admit when they are wrong or stand up for what they believe is right. I consider it a privilege to converse with people of all ages and views, especially those who have been swallowed by the whale and lived to talk about it.
Freddy stick around I think we can learn something from these old guys. Plus, I do believe you can teach old dogs new tricks.

[PLUMBER RICK]

There are times on this forum I will come across as a young twit. But I suppose any private business owner, wants to think he knows it all at times. I find my greatest inspiration in the men and women I choose to model my life after. Generally these are my elders, these are people who can admit when they are wrong or stand up for what they believe is right. I consider it a privilege to converse with people of all ages and views, especially those who have been swallowed by the whale and lived to talk about it.
Freddy stick around I think we can learn something from these old guys. Plus, I do believe you can teach old dogs new tricks.

you're right. dog just learned about vacuum breakers on hose bibbs last night:D he's the same age as dirtyhands/ adam and i. so i guess that makes us old timers too:eek:

well tomorrow adam, josh, my buddy steve and an electrician mitch will have the golf thing. from what i can see, josh being the youngest will clean our clock:D but then again he's not in the senior tour yet;)

rick.

[freddy]

"This OLD TIMER who charges T&M is inviting you out for a little mountain bike ride
Don't leave the forum I haven't even had my chance to play
If you stay you will have a chance to learn more about plumbing (without having to charge the customer for it)"
Sorry that you all did not chatch the meaning of my use of Old Timers I am refering to old way of thinking not having a vision to change some ways that may help your bussiness to grow. Like using a computor rather than only paper and fingers to count with. The only thing I learned thus far is you all must be stalkers. You seem to be fixated on wanting to know where I live and what I do. IMO when answering some ones post they take the info or not period. and same for me I don't care if the info comes from a guy in jail for murder If the info sound reasonable I will use it. It's no better than ricks or dogs info becauce of locations and codes issuse. Maybe I see rick at the see green.:D:D

[drtyhands]

[/b]

you're right. dog just learned about vacuum breakers on hose bibbs last night:D he's the same age as dirtyhands/ adam and i. so i guess that makes us old timers too:eek:

well tomorrow adam, josh, my buddy steve and an electrician mitch will have the golf thing. from what i can see, josh being the youngest will clean our clock:D but then again he's not in the senior tour yet;)

rick.
ELECTRICIAN:eek:

YOU NEVER TOLD ME I WAS GOING TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF ROYALTY:p

Where should I get my rose pedals at? What color does Princess like:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

with all the golf he plays, he should be pro:D

but my money is on josh.

maybe green roses, since mitch likes the green:confused:

see you in a few hours.

rick.