ventaway hissing change plunger/fill valve?

[Gene Bickford]

Customer has 1968 American Standard wall-mount vent away that is making a constant hissing sound.
I removed/cleaned plunger (rubbers appear worn/old). That cut hissing in half. When I pull float up (armature pushes plunger down) it further cuts hissing but never stops 100%. obviously water is passing the plunger when it is closed (plunger $20)
My question is, do you think changing the plunger will 100% cure the problem? In other words, have you known vent aways to make hissing/water sounds in other parts in addition to the plunger? I'm assuming it's just the plunger but wondering if I should just go ahead and change the whole fill valve($178).
This is a repeat customer with not a lot of money and their bill for this trip is already $115 for other repairs. I'd like to save them a few bucks If I can.

[Gene Bickford]

Also, current plunger is made of brass, replacement is plastic.

[plumberscrack]

Gene,
How are you able to get just the plunger for it?. I can only find full kits for Vent-a-Ways. And if you do just the plunger my guess is you'll be back and neither one of you wants that. To me there is no value in selling the $20 part. Normally I'd suggest changing the toilet it out but I see it's a wall hung:eek: and probably a color like Seafoam Green, Harvest Gold or my all time favorite: Lavender

[Gene Bickford]

www.lockeplumbing.com (http://www.lockeplumbing.com) has the plunger or the whole fill valve.
I'd rather just go ahead and change the whole valve but, like I said, they don't have a lot of $$$. Being 30yrs old I'm thinking it's not going to be long before something else wares out in it but, I don't have much experience with vent aways so I don't know if the plunger is a common component failure and the rest is pretty reliable or what. Do you think 30 yrs is pushing it as far as life expectancy of the fill valve? My gut would say yes but I just don't know with my limited experience with vent aways, not many around these parts, heck, 30yrs ago the two seater out house was considered top of the line around here:D

[freddy]

Your best bet would be replace whole valve. Just let the owner know the cost up front. Charge what you feel you want to help out the customer. Make sure no cracks in tank area and not overfilling, also rubber tank ball.:)

[plumberscrack]

Gene,
Been over a year since I looked at one. Plunger is first to go then the backflow and handle but I've been able to milk the plunger along for several years while the customer comes to the conclusion it's time to let go.
There were several versions made all were just a Rube Goldberg contraption. Roma, Luxor and a few others I can't remember. What's the model # and I'll have a better idea which valve you're working with.
Rick may be your go-to guy on this one.:p

~Bill

[Gene Bickford]

model # is4041

[ToUtahNow]

Gene,

Just for fun don't forget to test the water pressure in the house.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

that ballcock has a replaceable brass seat. also super important is the black rubber "dam" seal.

without a proper working dam the toilet will continue to run/ hiss forever. too bad most plumbers never understood the dam concept:D

since this is a wall mounted toilet, you don't have too many choices other than to repair the toilet.

do a dye test on the flush valve assy too. this is most likely worn out.

i hate to say it but, a ballcock, flush valve and backflow preventer will cost approx. $350.00 just in factory parts. tank handle is usually just a good cleaning and oiling. now the toilet seat would be a perfect time to change it once the ventaway section is disconnected. that's another $150 for the stupid seat on a vent away.

what other toilet choices do you have?

i have a customer with 4 "case" wall mount tank toilets. not any choices.

rick.

[Gene Bickford]

I don't understand a damn thing about it. Who's idea was it to take such a simple thing like a toilet and make it so, as pcrack says, Rube Goldbergish?
At the risk of sounding like a complete ***, What is the dam seal?
And what is the advantage of this design?:confused:
I understand it incorporates air to vent oder but couldn't this be achieved by just using a trap?

[plumberscrack]

I don't understand a damn thing about it. Who's idea was it to take such a simple thing like a toilet and make it so, as pcrack says, Rube Goldbergish?
At the risk of sounding like a complete ***, What is the dam seal?
And what is the advantage of this design?:confused:
I understand it incorporates air to vent oder but couldn't this be achieved by just using a trap?

Gene you need an advanced engineering degree to understand it.
The "dam" seal I think is the cupped shaped washer on the plunger assemebly-Rick?:confused: And he's right about changing the ballcock seat if you can get it out-good luck with that.:eek:
No advantage to this design because it never worked as promised and 30 years later we are still fumbling around with it.

I hope you are fond of that toilet Gene because if you go changing parts and pieces on it you're going to be married to it for a long time:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

the american standard 1 pc. toilet with or without the vent-away used to have a plastic 6''x6'' grey box that the float ball would drop into. the purpose of this was to act as an dam and allow the ballcock to fill fast. once the water got to the top of the box, it would overflow into the box and cause the toilet ballcock float ball to lift fast and shut.

the rubber dam seal was used to allow the box to empty after a flush and start the whole "dam" process over again.

without a dam box or a worn out dam seal. the toilet will run forever.

i always save the dam boxes and the 2 nylon bolts when i throw away a a/s. 1 pc. with this feature. you be surprised at how many toilets people removed this box from. like i said no dam/ no work.:eek:

rick.

[Gene Bickford]

any way to check/test the dam seal?
Pcrack I was thinking the dam seal was the cupped shaped washer as well.

[PLUMBER RICK]

just make sure it's still there and is still sealing properly.

do you have the grey float box i spoke about?

the seal is getting harder to find and is an american standard part.

rick.

[gear junkie]

This is new stuff to me. Gene, could you take some pictures? Rick, could you send a link that illustrates what you're talking about?

[Gene Bickford]

I just spoke with an American Standard engineer to see if he could come on the forum to answer/give us links to our questions but instead of that he is sending(snail mail) information on how to get rid of the vent away system and replace with a regular fluid master valve. This "fix it" is approved by A/S for two piece toilets only. He said he also knows of a way "fix" the one piece toilet but it's not approved by A/S. I don't think he'll be sending one piece info but maybe we can figure it out from the two piece info.
I'll copy and post the directions when they arrive.
I was about to "fix" this toilet with 5 gals of hydraulic cement. I like his way better.:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

a fluidmaster will never flush with a 1 pc. old toilet.

it's very easy to convert a ventaway to a normal roma non vent away. you still need the expensive ballcock and backflow preventer. along with the new flush valve. still an expensive option. i've never replaced the actual vent away components, but my supply house has it for big bucks:eek:

the whole trick with older 1 pc. toilets is that during a flush, the ballcock diverts to full flow into the flush/ rim wash. unlike a normal 2 pc. that can be flushed with a full tank and water not turned on, a 1 pc requires plenty of water during the flush. that's why a normal ballcock or fluidmaster will not perform properly.

kohler had the same issues too. i don't think that the new 1.6 gpf require anything special for a ballcock. that's why most 1.6 toilets use a fluidmaster or hunter (toto) now.

kohler, americand standard tried and have failed. fluidmaster is the #1 ballcock in the usa.

rick.