Floor Sink Sizing

[drtyhands]

Gentlemen,ladies?,whatever:p

Commercial application.
The customer's architect suggested that I modified the plumbing waste system that he drew and had approved by the city's plan check.We all know he's asking me to risk a red flag by the city's field inspector.

Anyway here it is,1 standard three compartment sink is drawn draining into it's own floor sink through my choice of 2"pipe indirect drain.1 standard prep sink with approximately 30 gal. holding capacity drawn with it's own floor sink with my choice of 2" indirect (I could use 1.5 D.W.V.copper But I have plenty of 2" left off of the 20' stick needed for the 3 compartment.)

Architect wants me to drain both into 1 sink under 3 compartment.The two sinks are only 4' apart so the horizontal is within the 15' limitation on indirect waste.

Even though there are only two sink faucets which the 2" trap can handle I want to be able to provide drainage for all 4 compartments being let go at the same time.If I cannot get the customer to leave it per plan,I am going with a 3"drain size floor sink.

I have already had to start using the eyes in the back of my head due to the fact that both the customer and the building owner tried to convince me that there was no grease waste stubbed into this suite even though there are two 4" C.O. in the middle of the floor 1' apart and offset.Second job walk with customer was issue free on greese issue.I can easily see the customer getting a lower lease if he does not dump into the building owners trap.And the architect drawing 2 sinks,getting me to put in 1 and hoping the inspector either won't catch it or think it will be O.K.

Is there somewhere in the Ca. U.P.C. (outside L.A. city) that I could reference to better inform myself on this

Thanks guys.

ADAM:rolleyes:;):p:)

[plumberscrack]

Adam,

I'm not familiar with the Cal. UPC code so can't help you there but I'll bet Mark knows.

Why does architech want you to change piping layout?

Are all 3 drains from 3 comp. draining individually to floor sink? or are you connecting 2 together? Commercial garbage disposal anywhere?

I would definately go with at least the 3" floor sink if all 4 sinks are draining into it. It would have to be a deep one shallow won't work here.

The plumbing inspector might miss it or just not care but I'll bet that Heath Dept. inspector won't and around here he ALWAYS has the final say in this.

~Bill

[drtyhands]

Excellent perception crack,I especialy like the deep floor sink,didn't even think of the different depths of all kinds of floor sinks,thank-you.

3 comp three into 1 at end closest to prep sink.If neccessary,I'm not comfortable at this point.I need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt if it's acceptable.

Or better yet,get customer to take responsibility in writting,nope that doesn't work his attorney would laugh and use it for toilet paper:p

Crack you just brought a thought to mind.I need to get some litterature on health code requirements.

Damn,sometimes I feel so far behind;)
Back to the reasearch dptmnt:o,thanks to the internet and local book store.

Adam.

[Crappy days]

I would stick with the original plan. If the architect wants to change it, let him sign something saying he will take the heat if it goes south. Basically if I understand correctly you have a prep sink and three compartment sink. I would leave it as the plans are drawn. The customer will be happy having the additional floor sink , especially when one backs up. Is there a grease trap. Will there be one in the future. Is the one basin sink a prep or hand sink.

[drtyhands]

The grease trap serves the entire srtip mall.I only brought it up because so many times I see people trying to get an ignorant person to do something to save them money not considering or worse not caring how much it could hurt the other;)
If this scenario is honest I would like to help as much as I can.

Adam

P.S. If the architect has to draw and resubmit to city it will cost customer.I know,I've posted it myself,LACK OF PLANNING ON YOUR PART DOES NOT CALL FOR AN EMERGENCY ON MY PART.The problem is if I was more knowledgable I could call it,on my own,on the spot.

[plumberscrack]

The problem is if I was more knowledgable I could call it,on my own,on the spot.

Adam,

I only mentioned the Health Dept because I've done restaurants exactly per plans and the day before they want to open Health dept comes in and wants changes done. Even though it was the same inspector that signed off on plans in review.:eek:

Nothing wrong with referring to the code book while on site. I keep a copy of the IPC commentary with me always. It's been a big help in grey areas of plumbing code.

Sometimes, I just act confident and make stuff up to suit my needs. You'de be surprised how often that works:D

[plumbdog10]

Adam,

I only mentioned the Health Dept because I've done restaurants exactly per plans and the day before they want to open Health dept comes in and wants changes done. Even though it was the same inspector that signed off on plans in review.:eek:

Nothing wrong with referring to the code book while on site. I keep a copy of the IPC commentary with me always. It's been a big help in grey areas of plumbing code.

Sometimes, I just act confident and make stuff up to suit my needs. You'de be surprised how often that works:D

Cracks making real sense here. You can size it in the UPC (you don't have one?), but you are dealing with issues involving multiple parties, which as a plumber, not a lawyer, leaves you in trouble. You will never get in trouble going by plan. Submit what is known as an RFI (request for information) to the archetect regarding his changes. Do not change the plans unless he gives you a signed authorization detailing his changes. At that point it becomes his problem.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Submit what is known as an RFI (request for information) to the archetect regarding his changes. Do not change the plans unless he gives you a signed authorization detailing his changes. At that point it becomes his problem.

dog came back to take the words out of my mouth.

with an rfi it gets you off the hook and leaves a change order that's been approved.

by the way. i see 3 compartment indirect waste plumbed into one 12'' floor sink with a 2'' trap. the starainers are typically an 1.5'' and don't drain full bore.

be nice to me and install a 2'' c/o in the vent riser to get around the trap if it's in my neck of the woods:D

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Dirty, there is actually a new environemntal health section on the the Health Departments web page that might be helpful to you.

Mrs. Seat Down

[drtyhands]

Cracks making real sense here. You can size it in the UPC (you don't have one?), but you are dealing with issues involving multiple parties, which as a plumber, not a lawyer, leaves you in trouble. You will never get in trouble going by plan. Submit what is known as an RFI (request for information) to the archetect regarding his changes. Do not change the plans unless he gives you a signed authorization detailing his changes. At that point it becomes his problem.
BOOM and that is it,Thank-you once again guys.

R.F.I. let the architect cover it.

Dog, I wasn't expecting you so early this evening.Glad you had a chance to spend some time with us.:)

No more questions from me on this sink issue.

Will go with deep sink if they dump both into one and don't spec..

Contacting County Health Dept. tommorrow to find literature to back up everything.Been a while since I've done food prep(10 yrs).

Yes,I have current enforced UPC,also illustrated to educate inspector:rolleyes: Just kidding.

Again the forum has proven itself,Josh get me a tissue:D

ADAM

[drtyhands]

dog came back to take the words out of my mouth.

with an rfi it gets you off the hook and leaves a change order that's been approved.

by the way. i see 3 compartment indirect waste plumbed into one 12'' floor sink with a 2'' trap. the starainers are typically an 1.5'' and don't drain full bore.

be nice to me and install a 2'' c/o in the vent riser to get around the trap if it's in my neck of the woods:D

rick.

Rick I love cleanouts and so do the building owners I work with,I actually put them on second floor waste in custom residential.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick I love cleanouts and so do the building owners I work with,I actually put them on second floor waste in custom residential.

where have you been the last 30 years?

i wish that there would be a code requirement that states: the vent penetration has to be connected to the top floor waste stack vent.

meaning that when you tie in the common vents. the last tie in, san tee/ upright wye has to be stacked over the waste stack from the top floor. not the vent stack. this will allow for jetting or snaking of the waste stack and not the vent stack. of course at the ground floor it will get into the waste. i just want a simple way to clean the waste stack without having to get into the top floor unit and working from a cabinet. a very simple task for any ruff plumber if they think of this.

mark, can a get a second vote on this?

rick.

[drtyhands]

Dirty, there is actually a new environemntal health section on the the Health Departments web page that might be helpful to you.

Mrs. Seat Down

Wow,Joey too,I wasn't even thinking I would get this much attention,:p

Will do Mrs.Seat Down.

By the way,watching the way you worked Rick at the trade show over the camera he didn't tell you he bought.Your Ridgid handle reflects you well;)

[PLUMBER RICK]

Wow,Joey too,I wasn't even thinking I would get this much attention,:p

Will do Mrs.Seat Down.

By the way,watching the way you worked Rick at the trade show over the camera he didn't tell you he bought.Your Ridgid handle reflects you well;)

she doesn't tell me when she buys new shoes or new purses:eek:

thanks for the reminder:rolleyes::p:(

rick.

[drtyhands]

Rick,
"where have you been the last 30 years?"

I could interperate this two different ways.
Could you clarify:p

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick I love cleanouts and so do the building owners I work with,I actually put them on second floor waste in custom residential.

where have you been the last 30 years:confused:

i wish everyone would think of the next guy. one day the next guy could be you:D

see my example of vent stacking;)

thanks adam.

rick.

ps. joey would interpret this differently:rolleyes:

[freddy]

Commercial application.
The customer's architect suggested that I modified the plumbing waste system that he drew and had approved by the city's plan check.We all know he's asking me to risk a red flag by the city's field inspector.

Sure he got nothing to loose, nor dose your customer, he's leasing the unit.
Run Away. If you dump 4 commercial sinks at one time into a two inch floor drain or sink, it will be flooding the area. even 3" will be challanged. I would like to know what type of bussiness they will be conducting, that would need these sinks, sound like food prep of some kind, if so that would need an interceptor, I would, if I decided to do the job, Go with the plan that's been approved. Not only risking a red flag but no money for your time becauce your way did not pass inspection,

[drtyhands]

Commercial application.
The customer's architect suggested that I modified the plumbing waste system that he drew and had approved by the city's plan check.We all know he's asking me to risk a red flag by the city's field inspector.

Sure he got nothing to loose, nor dose your customer, he's leasing the unit.
Run Away. If you dump 4 commercial sinks at one time into a two inch floor drain or sink, it will be flooding the area. even 3" will be challanged. I would like to know what type of bussiness they will be conducting, that would need these sinks, sound like food prep of some kind, if so that would need an interceptor, I would, if I decided to do the job, Go with the plan that's been approved. Not only risking a red flag but no money for your time becauce your way did not pass inspection,



Amen Brutha from anutha mutha;)

[plumbdog10]

where have you been the last 30 years:confused:

i wish everyone would think of the next guy. one day the next guy could be you:D

see my example of vent stacking;)

thanks adam.

rick.

ps. joey would interpret this differently:rolleyes:


Sounds easy Rick, but I've spent a lot of time on my current project trying to make required clean-outs work in a high dollar four building facility that feels that any clean-out cover lowers the aesthetics of the "look". My opinion at this point is who cares what they have to pay later for service work.

I'm sure you understand my position.

[PLUMBER RICK]

dog. it doesn't have to be a real clean out. i spoke to adam and explained my example to him. he know understands my vent stacking idea.

basically on the last fixture prior to the roof penetration. make sure that the vent line tee or wye that picks up the lower floor is installed so that the vent pipe is a straight shot into the top floor fixture. not the vent from the lower floors. all it takes is to stack the tee over the proper line. no extra cost, just a little common sense and looking forward.

you would be surprised at how many so called drain cleaning co's think that by snaking or jetting from the roof of a 3 or 4 story residential building that they are cleaning the waste lines all the way down to the garage.

chances are they are cleaning vents, until the bottom floor, then the waste line. if the vent penetration was installed the way i've tried to explain it, then you could clean all the waste lines on the way down. it doesn't cost anything extra to install. it just takes a little common sense.

p.m. if you want to discuss. i would like to talk to you:) you're missing all the late night chat. forget the instant messaging, the phone is better for us computer apprentices:D

rick.

[drtyhands]

Sounds easy Rick, but I've spent a lot of time on my current project trying to make required clean-outs work in a high dollar four building facility that feels that any clean-out cover lowers the aesthetics of the "look". My opinion at this point is who cares what they have to pay later for service work.

I'm sure you understand my position.

This does not sound like the same person who's hundreds of posts over the years that I have come to respect.

Plumbing Burnout?
Take yourself out of the loop,give yourself the break you have earned,treat yourself to something you deserve;)

[PLUMBER RICK]

i hope that dog isn't aging at an 8 to 1 ratio:confused:

dog is my age and your's adam.:eek:

[plumbdog10]

This does not sound like the same person who's hundreds of posts over the years that I have come to respect.

Plumbing Burnout?
Take yourself out of the loop,give yourself the break you have earned,treat yourself to something you deserve;)


Here's the situation Drtyhands:

I have my guys install a cleanout that I find important.

I have an owner's rep. and an architect who do not want anything diminishing the surfaces of the walls, ceilings, or floors.

I explain the value of such cleanout.

I am asked by the above listed geniuses if it is required by code, and if it will pass inspection without it.

I tell them it will pass inspection without the cleanout.

I am told to leave it out.

I figure I have three options at that point:

1) Sneak in at night, just before finishes are installed, and install it anyway.

2) Tell them I'm installing it weather they like it or not, at which I will be removed from the project.

3) Take the view that it is their building, their decision, I gave my expert opinion, and if they want to spend more money on service later, so be it.

I chose #3.

If chosing #3 doesn't meet with everyone's standards, I guess I'll just have to live it.

[ToUtahNow]

I agree with Dirtyhands in that I install as many cleanouts as I can get away with. However, I agree with dog in that you don't always get to do what you would like to do.

Many years ago I represented a builder who built a large home in Beverly Hills for the owner of a Jeans Company. One of the issues on the defect list included "unsightly" cleanouts. These were not optional cleanouts but required cleanouts.

Mark

[drtyhands]

The cleanouts are always installed with the homeowners interests in mind.Underslab on a higher end home the mains and branches that require cleanouts will actually be what many would consider a overkill distance to get to get outside the building,exterior wall,closet or some other not so (in plain view location).It only takes a backhoe a matter of minutes to dig another 30' and the pipe and fittings to do this are a small percentage of the overall plumbing project.The locations are brought to the generals attention for approvall.

[plumbdog10]

The cleanouts are always installed with the homeowners interests in mind.Underslab on a higher end home the mains and branches that require cleanouts will actually be what many would consider a overkill distance to get to get outside the building,exterior wall,closet or some other not so (in plain view location).It only takes a backhoe a matter of minutes to dig another 30' and the pipe and fittings to do this are a small percentage of the overall plumbing project.The locations are brought to the generals attention for approvall.

Again sounds easy. What about when you don't answer to a homeowner, you answer to a corporation that is out of state? What if you answer to an owner's rep who knows nothing about construction, but knows what high dollar members of country clubs expect for their $50,000 membership, and $5,000 a year dues? What about when installing that non-required cleanout is not 30' away, but would have to be extended 120' away and extend through 2 grade beams which the structural engineer has specified can only be passed through in the middle third if the beam? What if you can't get the elevation to pass through the beam at that elevation? What if you have to answer to your company why you had to extend what has now become a trench of around 180' to get around a grade beam for a clean-out that is not on the plans or required by the plumbing code? What if you value your own job and your company's welfare over idiots who place cosmetics over utility?

When you can answer those questions you may have a point.

[gear junkie]

Dog, aren't most these problems solved by the engineer who designs the prints and then you just build to prints. Doesn't this apply in your case? If the structual engineer and the mechanical engineer prints conflict(I don't see how this can happen) then you just put in a FAR or RFI.

[plumbdog10]

Dog, aren't most these problems solved by the engineer who designs the prints and then you just build to prints. Doesn't this apply in your case? If the structual engineer and the mechanical engineer prints conflict(I don't see how this can happen) then you just put in a FAR or RFI.

If the engineers had it all planned out correctly, there would be no need for RFI's. RFI's are to protect the contractors and to aid the building owner when the engineers screwed up. Keep in mind the RFI's are answered by the same people who screwed up in the first place. They often involve change orders, which are charged to their contract. Therefore you have an entity who made a mistake, who then must acknowledge the mistake by admitting they are wrong and in many cases paying for it. It has been my experience that unless the situation is completely unworkable, the engineers are more than willing to sign off on substandard design to avoid fault. I have seen this many times in my career. Sad, but reality.

[gear junkie]

But the RFI does put the mistake in writing as the FAR puts a solution in writing. This protects you from blame. Am I jaded by doing government jobs? The only civilian projects I did was 9 years ago when I did commericial HVAC.

[drtyhands]

Gear Junkie,
I used to look up to architects and engineers but it seems that the times have caught them into the rush-rush as well.

The set of plans I was given to quote off of showed electric Wtr/htr.When I got a full set the K-sheets refered to a gas wtr/htr.While the P-sheets which I was given showed elect.Called arch.,nice guy explained his apprentice made a mistake he didn't catch.I still had to RFI to cover my a$$ down the road.Plans are not even close to what they used to be.So much is allowed to be left out of the arch. responsibilities knowing the subs will pick-up the loose ends at there expense of resources.Again follow the ladder to the top and you will find the greedy man with more than he will ever need;)

[plumbdog10]

But the RFI does put the mistake in writing as the FAR puts a solution in writing. This protects you from blame. Am I jaded by doing government jobs? The only civilian projects I did was 9 years ago when I did commericial HVAC.

I've done numerous public works projects, but I don't know what a FAR is? Please explain.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I've done numerous public works projects, but I don't know what a FAR is? Please explain.

me too, but i figured it's not close:D

rick.

what is "far"

[gear junkie]

Field Adjustment Request. We use it when we have deviate from the prints. Happens alot when we do underground utilities or when we have a better idea than the engineers that is nonstructual. Go to google and type-seabee crewleader handbook- an example of the form is on page 256. I tried to make a link but couldn't figure it out.

[westcoastplumber]

Field Adjustment Request. We use it when we have deviate from the prints. Happens alot when we do underground utilities or when we have a better idea than the engineers that is nonstructual. Go to google and type-seabee crewleader handbook- an example of the form is on page 256. I tried to make a link but couldn't figure it out.


I think that would be called "As Builts" out here on the west coast;):)

[gear junkie]

I think that would be called "As Builts" out here on the west coast;):)

We got those to. We call them red line prints. You, with a red pencil, write on the prints what you did. Mostly involves utility deviation from prints. We then turn them into engineering every month then at the end of the project and engineering updates the master prints.

A FAR is more for anytime you deviate from the prints in a way in could come back on you. It could be anything. This takes the blame off of you the worker and places it on the engineers if things go wrong. This is all in writing so to elimanate "he said, she said".

Does this make sense or am I still clear as mud?

[westcoastplumber]

Hey Ben,

so it's called a "Cover your a** coupon?" :D

[gear junkie]

:D Exactly, never looked at it like that but that's it.

[plumbdog10]

:D Exactly, never looked at it like that but that's it.

Since you are a SeeBee I'm assuming this is a military term.

[gear junkie]

I guess it is. I thought you might know it since we both use RFI's (saw it on a previous post of yours). I guess FAR's just apply to us. I guess I am jaded.