deck mount tub valve problem.

[PLUMBER RICK]

just paid a visit to my brothers house to see my new 10 day old nephew:) and look into my brothers tub problem.

he has a tract house built 20 years ago that he purchased almost 1 year ago.

since he had a home warranty policy and he lives 45 miles away, i told him to have the warranty co send out a plumber. well after 5 trips to address a handful of items, my brother has given up on the incompetent plumber. i ended up replacing his water heater that the insurance co cashed him out on.

so the last issue is lack of hot water volume in his upstairs deck mount tub valve. the company was clueless in even attempting to diagnose the issue.
the cold is fine and the hot just dribbles out. i removed the 20 year old ceramic stem and determined that there was plenty of water suppling the valve. i then tried to back feed the cold into the hot by removing the tub spout and inserting a cork into the deck spout adapter. still very little flow back into the hot side.

at this point it was either a kinked line to the spout or debris.neither that was going to fix itself. since there is no access to the valve, i had to cut a 6''x6'' hole in the first floor full height wall to access the valve on the other side. now my brother was nervous like a new daddy:eek:

so i measured twice and cut once to expose the valve right on the money;)

what i discovered was a first to me. i even called mark to run it by him too. now we were both stumped. 60 years+ combined and we never came across this:eek:

the valve was basically a wide spread lav faucet with a bigger deck mount spout. the valve bodies and center spout tee were threaded for 3/8'' water flex lines like used in a lav widespread. problem was there were no flex lines installed. the plumber used 5/16'' od refrigeration tubing and soldered the tubing into the valve body and tee. thus reducing the ports to 1/4'' i.d.

this is a fairly large master tub. i figure that the inspector 20 years ago didn't allow flex connectors without an access panel. the access would have been on the living room wall approx. 10' above the floor. so that's where the brilliant idea of using 5/16'' copper came into:eek:

i took a couple of photos to attempt to show the bottom side connections. as reference the water feeds are 1/2'' copper. (5/8'' od.) the others are 5/16'' od copper.

couldn't believe it and still can't. this is in a private community of 160 homes starting at 1.5mil.

i had my brother fill the valve and spout tee with vinegar and sit overnight. maybe just a hard lime buildup:confused:

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

this is a clear photo of the bottom side. the cold is the front one with the 90 elbow. this is fine.

the problem one is the hot on the far side. it is only a 4'' spread between the valve and the tub tee.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

That sure looks like 3/8 OD tubing was used. It also looks like the spout tee is not matched with the valve bodies as it looks like it is CXC. I'd bet a guy like you could change that out pretty quick.

Mark

[BAPlumber]

has this always been a problem?

could solder have run into the tubing and blocked the hot side?

[PLUMBER RICK]

has this always been a problem?

could solder have run into the tubing and blocked the hot side?

my brother has been there almost 1 year. it's been bad since he moved in.

i doubt that the solder would have blocked the port this long after the original installation.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick,

That sure looks like 3/8 OD tubing was used. It also looks like the spout tee is not matched with the valve bodies as it looks like it is CXC. I'd bet a guy like you could change that out pretty quick.

Mark


very good mark. the tee is a 1/2'' c x c x fip tee.

the tubing is 5/16'' od. it is slipped into the threaded valve body, then soldered. the picture is tuff to size, but my eyes don't lie:D

use the 5/8'' od feed to compare the sizes.


a new deck mount valve would be a simple fix. i probably could replace it in the 6'' x 6'' hole i cut. my brother will look at new deck mount valves and see what matches best to the polished brass finish 20 year old bathroom.

rick.

[BAPlumber]

i removed the 20 year old ceramic stem and determined that there was plenty of water suppling the valve. i then tried to back feed the cold into the hot by removing the tub spout and inserting a cork into the deck spout adapter. still very little flow back into the hot side.

at this point it was either a kinked line to the spout or debris.rick.

I would go with the debris idea, can a wire be fished back through the spout adapter, or from the hot?

[BAPlumber]

Or just replace it.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I would go with the debris idea, can a wire be fished back through the spout adapter, or from the hot?

yes, a wire or flexiable wire rope could be used to snake it from the spout tee if the vinegar doesn't soften it up. the valve body won't work as the valve has a cast in seat for the ceramic stem.

i didn't go there with my truck. i just went in my suv.

the drywall saw i came up with from my brothers little collection of tools was a saber saw blade and vice grip. it worked great, but the real test will be if he can dissolve it with vinegar and put it back into service.

he's the money man, not the handy man:D

thanks, rick.

[BAPlumber]

with the water heater replacement, I'm wondering about pieces of an old dip tube?

we'll eventially find out though.

[PLUMBER RICK]

a couple more photos.

the dip tube idea is good. but it should have reverse flushed out and there were no other signs of did tube residue.

havn't heard from my brother this morning if the vinegar did any good.

a 1' section of 1/8'' wire rope with a cordless drill should work as a snake. hopefully he can fish it down the spout adapter through to the valve.

taking notes brother steve:D

rick.

[plumberscrack]

i had my brother fill the valve and spout tee with vinegar and sit overnight. maybe just a hard lime buildup:confused:

rick.

Who uses a deck mount tub enough to have calcium buildup even with a 5/16" pipe? :confused:

[drtyhands]

Who uses a deck mount tub enough to have calcium buildup even with a 5/16" pipe? :confused:
Actually P/C we have a bar sink faucet that was never used with the flow restrictor at the bottom of the gooseneck spout that was plugged up solid.
The plumbing company I had quote the job for the landlord said his price book told him to charge $485.00 to poke a hole with a pin in the base of the removable gooseneck.I told him to go ahead so the landlord wouldn't have to pay for a show up fee and not have anything done:p

AAAHHAAHAAAAIIIIYYYY crack myself up:o

[ToUtahNow]

Actually P/C we have a bar sink faucet that was never used with the flow restrictor at the bottom of the gooseneck spout that was plugged up solid.
The plumbing company I had quote the job for the landlord said his price book told him to charge $485.00 to poke a hole with a pin in the base of the removable gooseneck.I told him to go ahead so the landlord wouldn't have to pay for a show up fee and not have anything done:p

AAAHHAAHAAAAIIIIYYYY crack myself up:o

Actually the $485 is not a bad price if you were allowed to keep the pin afterwards. To be fair you do have to consider the cost of advertising.

Mark

[drtyhands]

Good point Mark,
I would also imagine the rising gas prices have had a lot to do with increase in rates.

[Crappy days]

Rick, Do you know what home warranty he has . Is it American Home Shield, Old Republic or another company. American home shield is or was owned by the same company that owns Rescue Rooter. If it is them I would encourage your brother to haggle with them over any money he paid. In my area this is a big problem as they almost encourage the plumbing company's not to fix anything.
I use to do allot of work with them at one point while working for another employer, hated it. Anyhow you can read up on the web on these company's and the consumer complaints they have.

[ToUtahNow]

I believe American Home Shield is a division of Service Master. The only connection I can see with Roto Rooter is I believe the guys who started Service Masters also started ACE Duraflo and several of the Roto Rooter franchises have ACE DuraFlo franchises.

We use to do home warranty work early on but it just did not pay enough. In the last 20-years the warranty companies have used us for second opinions only for slab leaks and the likes. Most of the warranty companies cap slab leaks at $600 and will not fix them. If we verified a leak the warranty company would write a check to the owner and wish them luck. We generally would repair the leak for the customer directly after the warranty company was out of the picture.

Mark

[Crappy days]

If my memory serves me right service Master bought out Rescue Rooter about 5 years ago. Or rather the company that owns Service Master also owns Rescue Rooter witch also owns or is a division of Sears and Roebuck

[ToUtahNow]

I know ServiceMaster was a carpet cleaning sub contractor for Sears in the 70s but I don't believe Sears ever owned them. After a while ServiceMaster branched out into all of the contracting businesses (Plumbing, Electrical. HVAC. Gararge Doors......) but I believe those were independently owned franchises of ServiceMaster. After the owners sold ServiceMaster to whomever, they started ACE Duraflo and now sell those franchises.

Mark

[Crappy days]

What I'm saying is it seams like a conflict to me. I don't know the exact details but I remember my old boss telling me the original owner of Rescue Rooter sold the company to Service Master or a parent company.

[ToUtahNow]

Okay I found it and yes Rescue Rooter is one of many companies owned by ServiceMaster:


American Home Shield Corporation (17 subsidiaries -- warranty contracts for home systems and appliances) -- Complaints (http://www.syix.com/emu/html/ahs.html).
American Residential Services L.L.C. (35 subsidiaries, including but not limited to, American Mechanical Services -- electrical, plumbing, heating, ventilation and air conditioning services) -- Complaints (http://www.syix.com/emu/html/ars.html).
AmeriSpec, Inc. (home inspections; wholly-owned subsidiary of American Home Shield) -- Complaint (http://www.syix.com/emu/html/amerispec.html).
Anticimex Development AB (5 subsidiaries)
Barefoot Grass Lawn Services, Inc.
Barefoot Services L.L.C.
CMI Group, The
Dallas Pest and Termite - a division of Terminix
Furniture Medic, Inc. (on-site furniture repair and restoration)
Furniture Medic Limited Partnership
Halliwell Engineering Associates L.L.C.
LTCS Investment Limited Partnership
Merry Maids, Inc. (domestic housekeeping services)
Merry Maids Limited Partnership
Rescue Rooter L.L.C. (plumbing and drain cleaning services)
Riwa B.V.
ServiceMaster Acceptance Corporation
ServiceMaster Acceptance Company Limited Partnership, The
ServiceMaster AM Limited Partnership
ServiceMaster Aviation L.L.C.
ServiceMaster Aviation Management Corporation
ServiceMaster Aviation Services Limited Partnership
ServiceMaster Company Limited Partnership, The
ServiceMaster Consumer Services, Inc.
ServiceMaster Consumer Services Limited Partnership
ServiceMaster Employer Services, Inc. (4 subsidiaries)
ServiceMaster Holding Corporation
ServiceMaster Home Health Care Services Inc.
ServiceMaster Limited
ServiceMaster Management Services, Inc.
ServiceMaster Management Corporation
ServiceMaster Management Services Limited Partnership
ServiceMaster Japan, Inc.
ServiceMaster Operations Germany GmbH
ServiceMaster Residential/Commercial Services Limited Partnership
ServiceMaster Residential/Commercial Services Management Corporation
ServiceMaster Strategic Limited Partnership
Steward Insurance Company
The Terminix International Company Limited Partnership (termite and pest control services) -- Complaints. (http://www.syix.com/emu/html/tc.html)
Terminix International, Inc.
Terminix B.V.
Terminix GmbH & Co. KG
Terminix Ltd. (35 subsidiaries)
TMX-Europe B.V.
TruGreen Holding L.L.C.
TruGreen, Inc.
TruGreen Landcare L.L.C. (17 subsidiaries -- commercial landscaping and tree services)
TruGreen Limited Partnership (“TruGreen ChemLawn” -- lawn care, tree and shrub services) -- Complaints. (http://www.syix.com/emu/html/tgcl.html)
We Serve America, Inc.
WeServeHomes.com, Inc.On a personal note I do have the Furniture Medic for a recliner my wife bought which has a lifetime warranty. Every couple of years they have to come out and replace some parts but they always show up.

Mark

[Crappy days]

A great example of what I am talking about is a couple of weeks ago . One of my customers called said service master/Rescue showed up collected 50 dollars and then told her they could not clean the drain . They said she needed a ground level C/O. When the customer asked what the additional cost would be, he told her to call Rescue or what ever company it is they own locally. Just seams wrong to me. He should have added a small fee and cleaned it from the roof or waste arm. She was so mad she just called me instead.

[PLUMBER RICK]

you are correct. it was american home shield.

i see and hear horror stories about this company every week. the majority of follow up work i do is because american home shield couldn't do it or the customer was so sick and tired of the companies and unqualified people they sent out. also when something was going to be cashed out, they always cashed them out for less than cost.

the realtors are also to blame as they tend to give the new owners a house warming gift with this lousy company.

rick.

[Crappy days]

It has bean along time since I read up on these guys. If I remember correctly they give the Realtors kick backs or incentive to use them. Its just to much of a conflict for me. If or when I buy a house again I will do my homework before purchasing a home warranty.