I want your all's hardest criticism...(Pictures)

[Aaron91]

So, the guy next door has known me for years, and used to be a plumber himself, but what old timer hasn't? Anyway when he asked me to installed a pedestal sink at his house awhile ago, I jumped on it, I thought it was amazing that this guy, who could do it without a problem, let me come in and do it. I won over his trust when I completed that job.

He then had me come over to a house he owns, but rents out, since the renters where smelling sewer gases, you name it, I checked it. The renter then talked my neighbor into installing all sorts of fixtures, and re-piping the old 1-1/2 copper drain lines. Well that was music to my ears, since he let me have the work. At the start of this he was like I know a master plumber if we need to call one in. I wasn't about to let a master plumber step onto my ground and rape this people.

I installed the new vanity base, and vanity top with the facet already installed. The new vanity base was taller the the old one, so the drain didn't line up, so when I went to tie on to the 1 1/2 copper line, it moved, and not just alil bit. :eek:

I then walked around to the other side, since it was a wash room, hoping to discover no dry wall, but to my disappointment, it was dry walled. I then took some measurements, which were dead on. I then sent a small drill bit from the bathroom out, watching out for the water lines, drain lines, etc... I then cut out a 12"x12" hole, hoping to solve the problem easliy, such as a loose furn coe, but it wasn't and I made a few more clean cuts all the way down.

I then discovered a 2" cast iron line, and a 2" bell just above the poured concrete flour, which a poured lead joint, around the loose 1 1/2 copper drain pipe. I then made a phone call Gear Junkie, just to make sure I wasn't over looking anything. I then beat out the poured lead joint, and let the fun begin. I don't think I have to explain the rest, I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.

My only question to you guys is, if you were in my shoes(called to a house due to a sewer gas smell), and everything checked out ok, as did on my inspection, how would you come across this, which caused the smell?

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5269/dcfc0017nw9.jpg
Here's the 2" cast iron bell all cleaned up, and ready for the gasket.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3997/dcfc0018pm8.jpg
Here's the old poured lead joint along with the old 1 1/2 copper drain pipe.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3720/dcfc0019rr6.jpg
Here's a up close picture on the back side of my work.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6524/dcfc0022fu4.jpg
The new vanity top and facut.

I also tried to host the pictures a different way this time, since last time some of you had a hard time viewing them...

So bring on the criticism.... :cool:

[gear junkie]

Aaron, where's the primer? Can you show the setup under the sink?

Ben

[Aaron91]

I personally never use primer inside a finished house, too big of a risk to make a mess, and yes I know they make clear primer.

And sure, here ya go.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4917/dcfc0023cc7.jpg
The outside of the vanity doesn't have ripped drywall, that just happened removing the old vanity base. I didn't install the valves, hence why they're crooked. Also the homeowner specifically asked for the flood safe flexible supply lines, thats why I installed them installed of regular supply lines. I know there's no escutcheon either, but he wanted opted out for the Cadillac treatment. :D

[DuckButter]

16!!!!

I'm a tad north of ya.
Codes completely vary from state to state, but it looks like you nailed the problem..loose lead 'n oakum joint allowing sewer gas in.
good call.
In my state we can't use resilient gaskets above ground...would have had to pack/repour the joint...but again...you nailed the problem.
Your cut was perfect...drywallers like that.
I generally try to cut neatly but leave distance from the nearest studs so the drywaller can slip strapping in behind the drywall to secure the new piece back in, I can't tell, but I think you did that.
Well done!

[DuckButter]

ONE question, after looking again, where's the vent?

[Aaron91]

My cuts are close to the studs, but could use a lil trimming up. Like I said, it's a rented house, and the owner is a bit cheap. But the renter that lives there, does dry wall work, go figure!

Good question. Roughly 12" below that 2" Cast Iron Bell, is the 4" main sewer line. Just a few feet away is the main stack/vent.

I didn't think I did too bad, considering for the past few months I've only been doing sewer and water lines.

[DuckButter]

OK...lemme get this out...THAT might be the problem, without a vent there you have a "full S trap"
I'd call the L-lord tomorrow and ask if the tennants were able to smell anything...If thats the case...look up local code for mechanical venting.
If mechanical vents aren't perm,itted (they're not in my state)...you might have to have him get a plumbing outfit, gets more complicated than simple drain connection.
Also...careful...I'm sure your neighbot is a good guy n all, but if anything were to go wrong...

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

Be creful of what you ask for!

Check your codes, the only approved PVC primer (which is required regardless of location) is purple in color. It looks like you did a fine job but I am assuming your jurisdiction does not require vents above the trap arm. It appears you did not use a hub adapter so the owner will likely experience the same problem again some day. What material did you use to lead your joint in(plastic lead)? I generally cut the drywall back to the middle of the studs with a paneling saw then screw the drywall back on when I am done.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

What did you use to adapter the 2" PVC to connect the trap.

Mark

[Aaron91]

ToUtahNow, what do you mean by what material did I use to lead my joint?

[DuckButter]

Check your codes, the only approved PVC primer (which is required regardless of location) is purple in color. Mark
Actually....no
I've worked with out-of-state plumbers...apparently the purple color is so inspectors can see it's been used and it IS required in SOME states.
Not here.
We abhor it here (nightmare scenatio under a finish KS...or bath lav with a newby apprentice)

[Aaron91]

Mark, as you can see I had a 2" PVC 90*, with a 2"-1 1/2" bushing in it, with a 1 1/4 male trap adapter inside it.

[Aaron91]

Yeah I mean I use it on new homes so I and the inspector both know whats completed and whats not. It doesn't matter if your new to the game or not, if you use purple primer under a kitchen sink or lavatory sink, it will catch up to you within time, and it's not like those few joints need primer, as long as the pipe and fittings are cleaned of burrs and any dirt/debris. Just my .02 cents though...

[ToUtahNow]

Actually....no
I've worked with out-of-state plumbers...apparently the purple color is so inspectors can see it's been used and it IS required in SOME states.
Not here.
We abhor it here (nightmare scenatio under a finish KS...or bath lav with a newby apprentice)

To be honest I am not familiar with the Codes in Mars but both the IPC and UPC require purple primer as well as the ASTM Standard for PVC.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

ToUtahNow, what do you mean by what material did I use to lead my joint?

I was wondering what you used instead of poured lead?

[ToUtahNow]

Mark, as you can see I had a 2" PVC 90*, with a 2"-1 1/2" bushing in it, with a 1 1/4 male trap adapter inside it.

Try to stay away from flush bushings as they by design leave an area which is non-scouring.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

i had the same question too. no vent and what did you use for a joint into the hub? it sort of looks like a hammer in rubber joint?

rick.

[Bob D.]

"We abhor it here (nightmare scenatio under a finish KS...or bath lav with a newby apprentice)"

Why not teach your apprentice to work neatly and not make a mess? And give them the time (and instruction) to learn to do it right, not just fast. The speed will come naturally later once the proper technique is mastered.

[Aaron91]

Mark, I used a 2" soil pipe gasket, with a small amount of plumber grease on the inside so the pipe slide in nicely, and some silicone on the outside edge, which would be on the outside of the gasket to the inside of the pipe to make the fit a bit tighter and hopefully block out all the smell. I don't understand what your saying about the bushing, sorry, can you re phrase it?

[Aaron91]

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1387/dcfc0021pc5.jpg
Here's a larger picture guys.

[gear junkie]

Looks good overall. Couple of points to add. In VA, clear primer is not allowed. I have a dishpan made by rubbermaid that I use to prime and glue all my joints in. It keeps the mess down. Prime your joints.

Anytime I install a vanity, I use a pvc p-trap because it's more durable. If you must go with metal, get 17 gauge chrome brass. I don't give the customer an option if they want that escutheon plate. I install one no matter what. It's a cleaner look and only cost $3. It shows a higher sense of workmanship. Little things like that matter.

I did an ac service call yesterday for an elderly lady. She had no AC for 2 days. I fixed the problem and sprayed some freshener oil in her airhandler. The whole house smelled great. She got on the phone and told her friend about how good the house smelled, not the cool air. I got another referral. We are in the service business. Don't overlook the little things.

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

Picture in your head a horizontal pipe which has a 2" X 1 1/2" flush bushing installed in the direction of flow. As the water travels from the 1 1/2" pipe size to the 2" pipe size it does a little hydraulic leap and totally misses the bottom section of the 2" pipe. It's not a big area but it does happen and over time it can cause a stoppage. When and if you start doing camera work you will see what happens at flush bushings.

As far as the connection you made at the cast iron hub, they make a PVC hub adapter which would have prevent the PVC pipe from ever moving. It is possible over time that PVC may start wiggling loose. There also is a Code approved plastic lead which is available for leading in the joint. Sometime it seals rusty cast iron hubs a little better than a hammer in seal.

Mark

[Aaron91]

Mark, thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, I now understand what your saying.

.... But I don't see it being a problem on a vertical pipe, or am I missing something?

[DuckButter]

To be honest I am not familiar with the Codes in Mars but both the IPC and UPC require purple primer as well as the ASTM Standard for PVC.

Mark
Mass, I wouldn't lie to ya.
Had this "meaningful debate" with an old boss from Kansas who'd gotten his license here as well, he couldn't understand why we don't require it.
Same stuff, with purple color...I cringe at the thought of using it on a finish, the idea of making it visible for inspection makes sense, but I guarantee it's not required here.
Hundreds of inspections...never once heard it even mentioned.
You'd be VERY surprized at how different the codes are one state to the next...one example...you might know what a "frog eye" tee is...we never use them, nobody sells them here.
Mechanical vents also...one state up, NH, they're legal (studor vents)
Some states apparently allow indirect wastes into a floor drain on Kitchen sinks...we don't, just commercial DW.
Here's an inte3resting one...in some parts of FLA...copper is NOT allowed on water!
Due to mineral content.
So, for purple primer...thats just a small one...there's a pretty extensive list.
We have adapted the uniform gas code...not the plumbing here.

[Aaron91]

Duck, where do ya live seriously?

[Crappy days]

I am originally from new england as well. Things are different there the people are a lot more (liberal) easy going with things. I have two cousins in the trades back there. They are always telling me things the inspectors let go due to common sense type stuff.

Just having a little fun with the word ( liberal ) play no reason to start any discussions over it.

[PLUMBER RICK]

what ever happened to using the cardboard box that came with the sink, trap, 2 part waste, or scrap to protect the cabinet. also cardboard makes for a good way to spot a leak.

since abs is used here and typically not pvc waste pipe. we don't use primer on abs:D but on sprinkler pipe we do;)

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

You'd be VERY surprized at how different the codes are one state to the next

Not really I am licensed there as well. Like I say I don't know where you are so I don't know your Codes. I do find it a little odd that they would not comply with the materials listing standards.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Mass, I wouldn't lie to ya.

Really, I wouldn't

[DuckButter]

what ever happened to using the cardboard box that came with the sink, trap, 2 part waste, or scrap to protect the cabinet. also cardboard makes for a good way to spot a leak.

since abs is used here and typically not pvc waste pipe. we don't use primer on abs:D but on sprinkler pipe we do;)

rick.

There's another one...ABS is in our code, but nobody uses it.
From what I know, it's advantage is that it doesn't expand/contract like PVC.
As for liberal...er...in Cambridge maybe.
I grew up where Whitey reigned...not very liberal there.

[DuckButter]

Not really I am licensed there as well. Like I say I don't know where you are so I don't know your Codes. I do find it a little odd that they would not comply with the materials listing standards.

Mark
You're licensed in MA?

[Crappy days]

DB, How did you like Governor Romney. If you trash talk him prepare for a debate. Although to save everyone else we will do this over pm as they have had enough of me lately.:)

[ToUtahNow]

Mark, thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, I now understand what your saying.

.... But I don't see it being a problem on a vertical pipe, or am I missing something?

Aaron,

Not many people would agree but there almost is not a single place in plumbing where a flush bushing should be used. As a matter of fact one of my buddies is the past President of a Plumbing Engineering Society. While I was camering a house on one of my projects I showed him the result of a flush bushing on the waste line. After that he shared with me that the first set of plans he was ever turned down on was because he had designed a vertical rain water system which included a flush bushing where the pipe size increased.

The fact that an inspector does not know enough to turn you down on a project does not mean you are doing it right. Every year I spend a week in classes with Plumbing & Mechanical Inspectors from all over the Country. Many of them are the heads of Departments in large cities. I am always amazed at how many of the obsure stuff they do not know.

The Inspectors are there to keep you honest but it is your job to protect first the Health & Safety of your clients and secondly the Trade. You keep asking questions and I am sure you will be able to do both some day.

Mark

[DuckButter]

DB, How did you like Governor Romney. If you trash talk him prepare for a debate. Although to save everyone else we will do this over pm as they have had enough of me lately.:)

I didn't like him and Plumbing is hard enough to "debate"...forget politics or religion...count me OUT on those two here!

[ToUtahNow]

You're licensed in MA?

LOL-No I guess I thought you mis-spelled Mars.

I was saying I am licensed in the States next to me. That is why I need to know both the International Codes and the Uniform Codes.

Mark

[DuckButter]

LOL-No I guess I thought you mis-spelled Mars.

I was saying I am licensed in the States next to me. That is why I need to know both the International Codes and the Uniform Codes.

Mark
The "better" half says I'm from Mars...she's always right.

[ToUtahNow]

You're licensed in MA?

Just for giggles you may want to look at the Massachusetts Uniform State Plumbing Code. Under 248 CMR 10.06 it lists ASTM Standard F-656-96a and ASTM Standard D2855-96 which are the same Standard the IPC and UPC use as References. Again I don't work with your Code and dobn't doubt you but I would like to understand more about your Code.

Mark

[gear junkie]

So what did we think about Aaron's work?;)

[DuckButter]

Just for giggles you may want to look at the Massachusetts Uniform State Plumbing Code. Under 248 CMR 10.06 it lists ASTM Standard F-656-96a and ASTM Standard D2855-96 which are the same Standard the IPC and UPC use as References. Again I don't work with your Code and dobn't doubt you but I would like to understand more about your Code.

Mark

You likely know this, but it's online...gimme a sec....keeping in mind that even if there's a general reference to ASTM, it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't some clause elsewhere in the book...what I do know is that we don't use it.
Ironically when we see it, it usually means the homeowner went to HD and did a DIY, plumbing supplies don't carry it here.
Be right back.....

[BAPlumber]

I'm wondering about his S-trap? I'm assuming his code requires some sort of vent.

[ToUtahNow]

You likely know this, but it's online...gimme a sec....keeping in mind that even if there's a general reference to ASTM, it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't some clause elsewhere in the book...what I do know is that we don't use it.
Ironically when we see it, it usually means the homeowner went to HD and did a DIY, plumbing supplies don't carry it here.
Be right back.....

LOL- You don't need to look it up now I was just curious so when I make small talk I can say Massachusetts does not require primer because.....

Mark

[DuckButter]

Here Mark...this is the link to 10.06
248 CMR 10.00: Uniform State Plumbing Code (http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=Licensee&L2=Division+of+Professional+Licensure+Boards&L3=Board+of+State+Examiners+of+Plumbers+and+Gas+Fi tters&L4=Statutes+and+Regulations&L5=Rules+and+Regulations+Governing+Plumbers+and+Ga s+Fitters&sid=Eoca&b=terminalcontent&f=dpl_boards_pl_cmr_248cmr1000&csid=Eoca#10.06)
Though it refers to ASTM, I don't see the specific numbers, again I just think it's referenced elsewhere in our book...either that or for some strange reason the entire state just doesn't like it. (Who knows, maybe in defiance of HD...the state board has fined them in the past for offering wtr htr installation classes)
I could be wrong, for example, to the shock and surprise of everyone in my trade we recently adopted PEX for potable use just a few years ago.

[DuckButter]

LOL- You don't need to look it up now I was just curious so when I make small talk I can say Massachusetts does not require primer because.....

Mark

Just tell 'em because massachusetts just has to be different...LOL

[westcoastplumber]

Here Mark...this is the link to 10.06
248 CMR 10.00: Uniform State Plumbing Code (http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=Licensee&L2=Division+of+Professional+Licensure+Boards&L3=Board+of+State+Examiners+of+Plumbers+and+Gas+Fi tters&L4=Statutes+and+Regulations&L5=Rules+and+Regulations+Governing+Plumbers+and+Ga s+Fitters&sid=Eoca&b=terminalcontent&f=dpl_boards_pl_cmr_248cmr1000&csid=Eoca#10.06)
Though it refers to ASTM, I don't see the specific numbers, again I just think it's referenced elsewhere in our book...either that or for some strange reason the entire state just doesn't like it. (Who knows, maybe in defiance of HD...the state board has fined them in the past for offering wtr htr installation classes)
I could be wrong, for example, to the shock and surprise of everyone in my trade we recently adopted PEX for potable use just a few years ago.


to the shock and suprise of everyone here, we still cannot use pex, we can try for a varience, but not allowed to use it like copper

[DuckButter]

to the shock and suprise of everyone here, we still cannot use pex, we can try for a varience, but not allowed to use it like copper

I still don't use it...for baseboard maybe, but the whole PolyButylene catastrophe was a big lesson in how "special interest" big money can influence or speed up government decision making...in my opinion.

[ToUtahNow]

Here Mark...this is the link to 10.06
248 CMR 10.00: Uniform State Plumbing Code (http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=Licensee&L2=Division+of+Professional+Licensure+Boards&L3=Board+of+State+Examiners+of+Plumbers+and+Gas+Fi tters&L4=Statutes+and+Regulations&L5=Rules+and+Regulations+Governing+Plumbers+and+Ga s+Fitters&sid=Eoca&b=terminalcontent&f=dpl_boards_pl_cmr_248cmr1000&csid=Eoca#10.06)
Though it refers to ASTM, I don't see the specific numbers, again I just think it's referenced elsewhere in our book...either that or for some strange reason the entire state just doesn't like it. (Who knows, maybe in defiance of HD...the state board has fined them in the past for offering wtr htr installation classes)
I could be wrong, for example, to the shock and surprise of everyone in my trade we recently adopted PEX for potable use just a few years ago.

They are down in Section 10.06.3

I actually like that your Code is online and simple. California keeps going back and forth on PEX. It was approved on a case by case basis but now I believe it's approved for everywhere in California.

Mark

Edit: I stand corrected the language has once again been pulled from the 07 CPC. We are back to a case by case basis.

[freddy]

I would have leaded CI pipe back in place, and then ran PVC to lav drain, also I see no vent. I would have put in automatic vent under vanity. I would have put on purple primer. (You Could put this on your fittings outside in the yard)
For the most part. I think you did as good as he had there before. Maybe they allow for no vent where you live with that set up. IMO the bushing is fine to reduce fitting down. From the looks, and your discription of it, that house will fall down before your bushing would cause a problem. Keep doing these small jobs and get input from everyone. Take the advise that works best for the situation your in. :)

[plumberscrack]

I think his work looks like it was done by a 16 year old... oh wait... it was. Hey, he wanted criticism.

Aaron, soooo much for you to learn. Don't have different levels of professionalism for different customers. It doesn't matter who the customer is do it the right way every time. Everyone gets the Cadillac treatment weather they want it or not.

[DuckButter]

I would have leaded CI pipe back in place, and then ran PVC to lav drain, also I see no vent. I would have put in automatic vent under vanity. I would have put on purple primer. (You Could put this on your fittings outside in the yard)
For the most part. I think you did as good as he had there before. Maybe they allow for no vent where you live with that set up. IMO the bushing is fine to reduce fitting down. From the looks, and your discription of it, that house will fall down before your bushing would cause a problem. Keep doing these small jobs and get input from everyone. Take the advise that works best for the situation your in. :)
I second that (er...'cept the purple primer..lol)
Aaron, DON'T get discouraged if we're hard on ya...you'll learn that way.
Also...please be VERY careful with side work, some people will try to blame you for problems with existing plumbing.
I'd personally take great pleasure in helping you with projects if you wanted to come here first for idea's, I suspect I speak for most, if not all of us.

[HVAC HAWK]

on the primer thing
the primer is used to prep and soften the PVC to make the glue bond better.
if you don't use primer then the joint is not as strong as if primer was used

read the can:eek::eek:

[DuckButter]

on the primer thing
the primer is used to prep and soften the PVC to make the glue bond better.
if you don't use primer then the joint is not as strong as if primer was used

read the can:eek::eek:


Just to be clear...we DO use primer.
Just not the purple stuff. (I'd feel like an idyot it ya thought we didn't)

[HVAC HAWK]

I personally never use primer inside a finished house, too big of a risk to make a mess, and yes I know they make clear primer.

i do use it but he did not

[westcoastplumber]

I use primer and sand my fittings before I glue everything toghether. yes, primer is messy, but that is what drop clothes are used for, always cover your customers floor up and wear shoe covers, treat all jobs the same, wether the house is new or old, wether it has drywall or holes, no matter what the house looks like, it is still your customers house and to them it is their retirment or their pride and joy. whatever it is, treat it as it is yours and you will be allowed back into it. Also, don't do anything to someone elses house that you wouldn't do to yours. :D:D:D always remember aaron, what can happen, will happen, murphys law brother, account for it

[ToUtahNow]

It's funny when I hear plumbers worried about purple primer and we have to work with black ABS cement. :eek:

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

It's funny when I hear plumbers worried about purple primer and we have to work with black ABS cement. :eek:

Mark


Thats true mark. ABS cement used to be bad. Although the longer your in the trade, the less dirty you get from abs cement and primers, pipe dopes etc. I remember my first re-drain, I was peeling abs cement for days, but now, I barely get any on me unless I am in a tough, tough spot:D

[HVAC HAWK]

out this way in pa i think the only time we See ABS pipe is in campers or mobile homes .

[plumbdog10]

Why not prefab it outside? But I would definatly stick with manufacturers recommendations. While it is unlikely it will leak, why take a chance. Since you probably didn't head test it (and I wouldn't suggest you do) you don't want to have to rip this guy's wall apart again to fix a preventable leak.

Just my opinion.

[FINER9998]

Westcoastplumber referred to Murphy's law....Anyone care to comment on O'briens law?

[DuckButter]

Westcoastplumber referred to Murphy's law....Anyone care to comment on O'briens law?

Murphy...all too familiar with him ("boo-hoo...there's another leak hiding inside the wall...")
O'brien?
I think I got trashed with him once in a pub in Boston.
Aside from that....do tell.

[Bogart]

What's this about you weren't going to let a master plumber step on your ground and rape anybody? Until you own and run a business don't shoot off your mouth about rape. You have no idea what someone elses costs are to run a business. Also, it's not up to you to decide if you are going to use primer or not. If the pvc manufacturer says to use it, you use it. I can use purple primer on trims because I am neat and careful.

[gear junkie]

Bogart, calm down. Aaron just asking for a critique of his work and maybe his comments are correct about plumbers in his area. If they don't apply to you, why be offended? Aaron's got a lot to learn but the good thing is that he's willing to learn and ask for advice from us. If you come down too hard, your message won't be received as well. Just my 1 1/2 cents.

Ben

[westcoastplumber]

Hey Bogart,

I understand your stress about the cost of running a plumbing business and also some of aarons other comments, one thing we have to realize is that aaron is still young and he is comming to us, so if we can keep a positive tone, we can help guide him through his rookie years.

Ask yourself how you were when you were 16 ;);)

[Bob D.]

Aaron's got a lot to learn for sure and part of it is that he does not know as much as he thinks he does. But more important than that is he needs some respect for people already working in the trades since long before he was born. I had 16 years in the trade before he was born, but I don't know everything and never will know it all. This trade is too big to be expert in every one of its facets.

I don't think he knows enough to be able to say that others don't know what they are doing. I think his handy work on this leak repair proves that. How did he put it? Something like he don't need no stinking primer. Like his glue joints would never dare leak.

Aaron, I think you have a great future ahead of you, but like many your age (now a days and in the past, and I was one of them for a time), you need to be just a tad more humble and respect others experience even if you can't see the wisdom of their ways right off. It's OK to question why or how something is done, that's a big part of learning and understanding. Voicing your opinion and suggesting methods of performing tasks is good too. Slamming others and eluding to them as something other than honest is not how you make yourself look professional and a bad way to kickoff your career.

[Aaron91]

I readsever one of your comments. I'm extremely humble, but for some reason, I'm not on this forum. I would ask you guys, what were you doing at 16? Chances are you were smoking pot or pulling pranks? I highly doupt you already passed the back flow class or not. Sure it's somewhat easy, but it still shows alot of motivation. Good helps hard to find, so why you guys are bashing me, I don't understand, we're a dieing bread guys, you've probably scared of plenty of good help because your ego's, mouths and tempers got the bet of you.

Bograt, I wish you could meet and hear the first hand stories from homeowners about local plumbers. You live out west, and from what I've experienced people are alot more down to earth out there. How would you like it if you were a homeowner, and the plumbers that came to replace your sewer line were told to hit the water line on purpose to replace it? How would you like it, if the plumber that came out charged you $100 extra, to move one coffee pot, because it was in his way?... This I heard from the plumber himself.

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

Lighten up no one is trying to slam you. When you ask us to be hard on you we are hard on you. If you need it sugar-coated let us know and we will see what we can do.

To answer your question yes I was smoking weed at 16. However, I was also working as a bus boy, I was on the school districts payroll for printing, I making surfboard to sell, I had a silk screening business making T-shirts, I was printing business cards and staionary for local businesses and I was getting my High School education.

Everyone is different but be happy with where you are. Just remember to stay up with the Trade you need to be constantly learning. When you have decided you know it all it is time to get out of the Trades because you are more of an indrence then a help.

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

Aaron,

First of all you wanted the hardest opinions,when you didn't get what you wanted you start insulting.Of course not surprised that your ego is that big.You are hurt by all the critics and you can only defend yourself and blame everyone else.

Not everyone wants to be backflow certified or whatever crap that is.Saying that most of the plumbers were smoking crack when they were 16???Dude what the hell are you thinking?What's wrong with you? You can start insulting people like my husband when you get your contractors license and then, only then you will be on the same level.

If you don't want to hear any critics you shouldn't have posted the picts.I'm even surprised how young and cocky you are.You think you know everything and whoever is giving you remarks, you just start defending yourself.

If you do less bitching and talking maybe you could have learn a word or two.(wait a minute you never talk)There is a reason why this forum is on.To help people,exchange knowledge,get few tips...What did the forum get from you?Couple of pictures?Next time do not post unless you want to hear proffesional opinion.

I'm sorry but you really pissed me off.Some people didn't know what they wanted to do when they were 16,you know ,big deal...good for you..BUT YOU WON'T ACOMPLISH ANYTHING IF YOU WILL BE AS COCKY AS YOU ARE NOW.

You can't even compare with the rest of the plumbers here so i don't know why you even bother.You wanted advice you got some.DEAL WITH IT

If i was a young boy that knows what i want to do in my life like you i would be so gratefull that i have people who know their trade and law,people that can help me anytime i need and most important give me the right perspective

P.S-my husband didn't wanna say anything but you really pissed me off you disrespectfull...


Mrs-wc

[PLUMBER RICK]

aaron, i'm not going to come down hard on you as others already have.

when i was even younger than you (12.5) i too was working. even if it was for my uncle:eek: but i listend and i learned. of course the computer was not what it is today, and the internet was not invented:eek: so i can't say if i would have been as cocky:D as you. once again it was for my uncle and i had to respect him. sure as i got older and more proficient, i might not have agreed with him, but he was the boss, and i worked for him.

now getting back to your original statement. smoking and drinking.

never have and never tried and never will. how do you think i can afford all the nice toys:confused: even the new k-50 today:D

aaron, sometimes it's better to listen and ask questions, than to question what most of us have years of knowledge in.

not trying to be hard on you, just trying to be honest.

stick with the forum, but take it easy on us older guys;)

you have many years ahead to get cranky. dog didn't become a dog without being a puppy first:D

rick.

now joey's turn:

Aaron, the truth of the matter is you asked for criticism, but you were really just looking for praise thinking you did a fantastic job. I think the only reason you asked for criticism is that you didn't think there would be much.

Sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow. Lucky for you ( & the homeowner), you have the expertise of several knowledgable people who are willing and able to help you.

These old guys are cocky because they can be;) Once you have the years of experience and expertise they do, then you can act like them.

Mrs. Seat Down

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

Mrs. Westcoast is proud of her husband and his accomplishments as she should be and is only trying to protect him. I'm sure she knows her husband is well respected here and we are all hoping he does well in his new business. However, she does bring up a good point. She does not know what a Certified Backflow Tester is. Chances are as you go through life very few people you interact with will know what a Certified Backflow Tester is. I'm not sure who you are certified with but when I was testing I was certified by AWWA, ABPA and LA County. All of those certificates had to be renewed every few years or you were no longer certified.

On the other had I don't know anyone who does not understand what a High School Diploma is and they do not need to be renewed. My guess is many of us at the age of 16 were making sure we got or High School Diploma so when someone asked we did not have to explain why we didn't have one.

You still have a chance of getting your GED and while it does not carry the same weight as a High School Diploma it will show you got what it takes to finish what you started and it never needs to be renewed. Don't cheat yourself and make sure you finish your GED while you still can. Your Trade will come soon enough and I am sure you will do well there as well.

Good luck-Mark

[Bob D.]

I read sever one of your comments. I'm extremely humble, but for some reason, I'm not on this forum. (exactly what I am getting at)

I would ask you guys, what were you doing at 16? Chances are you were smoking pot or pulling pranks? I was working (but not at the trade) when I wasn't in school. I WAS smart enough to know I needed to finish school however. Let's see at 16 I tore a second story porch off our house and roofed it over (3 squares just me, no help). I also fixed the underground sprinkler system for our lawn. It hadn't been used in many years and I located all the heads, replaced those which were missing or broken, flushed out the lines, replaced dried out packing on the valves, replaced a 6 foot section of 3" screw pipe that was missing, hand cutting the threads in the ditch to install the new pipe and unions. At 15 I painted that same house when I wasn't working my regular job. This was during non-school hours of course. I cut lawns and shoveled snow and had two paper routes at the same time for 3 years. I worked my butt off Aaron so like I said you don't know who you are talking too (or about) all the time.

I highly DPT you already passed the back flow class or not. (no such qualification back in the 60s) Sure it's somewhat easy, but it still shows alto of motivation. (yes, it does) Good helps hard to find, so why you guys are bashing me, I don't understand, we're a dieing bread (that's breed, not bread) guys, you've probably scared of [off?] plenty of good help because your ego's, mouths and tempers got the bet [better?] of you. I had a wise *** apprentice like you a few years ago (been about 15 now that I think of it). That moron couldn't read a six foot rule (he choose not to finish school and got his GED so he could start an apprenticeship). HE was the one who was all smoked up and out of it half the day. He couldn't remember the take-outs for fittings even though we were only working with 3/4 & 1" pipe. He would continually screw up cutting threads on the pipe machine (undercut, not long enough, too deep, pipe full of oil, etc.) We had a set of dies for each size pipe we were working with, there was no need to adjust the dies, but for some reason he would have to tweak it just a bit because in his infinite wisdom (< 2 years in the trade) he knew better than we did where the die should be set.

I ran into him at a meeting about 2 years ago. He came over and told me that had learned a lot from me and the other Journeyman on the job but that looking back he now knew he had wasted a lot of our time and also cost the contractor money because he did not listen to what we were telling him to do or how to to do it. Now he's got about a dozen or so years under his belt and he has been a foreman a time or two on various jobs. The shoe is on the other foot now and he sees where he screwed up. Luckily he got himself squared away before he got kicked out of the program.

Bogart, I wish you could meet and hear the first hand stories from homeowners about local plumbers. You live out west, and from what I've experienced people are alto more down to earth out there. How would you like it if you were a homeowner, and the plumbers that came to replace your sewer line were told to hit the water line on purpose to replace it? How would you like it, if the plumber that came out charged you $100 extra, to move one coffee pot, because it was in his way?... This I heard from the plumber himself. We all know there are less than honest people working in the trades, not just in plumbing or fitting but every craft. You are not impressing me (and maybe others) but letting on like you are saving someone from being ripped off because you are there to rescue them with your ambition, a little knowledge, and a desire to not install the material in the manner that the manufacturer requires for it to perform as expected.

You want to be somebody; do it right the first time; don't bad mouth other trades or people in your trade; get a fair wage (to both sides) for your work; and stand behind your work; and sign your work (if you're not afraid to put your name on it) with your name and the date. When you can walk away from a job and not be worried that someone will come along behind you and know who did it, you'll be well on your way.

[Bogart]

I can't remember who said "youth is wasted on the young." Aaron I am glad you helped somebody out. The bad thing is when you do siders or stuff on your own, it's usually under the going rate, so you are helping to lower the going rate. We have enough trouble with illegals and fly-by-niters. If you wanna help the trade, and your customers you set your prices where they need to be. You help the customers by being a stable, code knowledgabe, ethical business that becomes part of the fabric of the community. You help the trade by hiring and training apprentices that disprove the image of a butt-crack overpriced plumber.

[drtyhands]

Aaron,
Welcome to the forum.How are you doing?

Isn't this the greatest bunch of guys you and I can bounce plumbing isues off of?

You do understand that we all want to see grow into the best you can be,YES?

I certainly hope that you don't expect anything unearned,No?

This said,could you possibly agree that praise also given here amongst our peers.

Stick with it partner,just turn the volume down;)

A lot of us were doing other things than plumbing at sixteen.But that don't mean S*!#.It's what we have done with our lives to date and where we stand with our fellow man,no matter what age.I have said it before I have made mistakes thinking I knew more than I did,wasted a lot of time doing that.

There is nothing wrong with a man being confident,just not too cocky;)

Adam

[Crappy days]

Aaron, Take it from me you are Mino swimming in the ocean. If you continue being over confident someone is going to eat you up. At your age you should be watching learning, sitting back and enjoying using the excuse I don’t know. Trust me you have plenty of time ahead of you. Slow down take it all in and breathe. Before you know it, you will be married with kids and a mortgage. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Every one of these guys wants and is willing to help you. So let us, you might not always like it but it is the truth.

Oh and Aaron when I was 16 I was smoking pot and making more money in a week then you make a month. That isn’t including the money I made from selling pot. I worked commercial fishing boats. Trust me if you think these guys are hard to deal with, get on a boat with them. Also I would think from your comments that you smoke pot. Usually when someone makes accusations or comments like that, well it’s because they are doing it themselves.
:eek::eek::eek:

[gear junkie]

Adam, you have an uncommon way with words that sums it up nicely here. Aaron, I was smoking dope and doing lots of other stuff we'll not say when I was 16. I understand your fustration; think very carefully about what you say or type, they can never be taken back. Aaron is a lousy speller but before we start throwing stones, let's remember that we all spell incorrectly at times. Dieing=dying. Do work on your english skills Aaron. As you go through life you'll see communication will solve 99% of all problems.

Ben

[ToUtahNow]

Aaron,

Understand while you read all of this we all want you to be sucessful. We are just trying to help get you there.

Mark

[drtyhands]

Adam, you have an uncommon way with words that sums it up nicely here. Aaron, I was smoking dope and doing lots of other stuff we'll not say when I was 16. I understand your fustration; think very carefully about what you say or type, they can never be taken back. Aaron is a lousy speller but before we start throwing stones, let's remember that we all spell incorrectly at times. Dieing=dying. Do work on your english skills Aaron. As you go through life you'll see communication will solve 99% of all problems.

Ben
It's from all the drain bamage I gave myself from the heroin,acid,XTC meth and baby powder I did over the weekend.

[freddy]

Aaron, Just take the opinions on this forum for what they are. If you can use the info great, if not forget about it. There's a lot of hot air on this forum as you can see. Any time you put up a picture, and ask for a opinion, it going to be trashed by this group. Now I know I may get jumped on by all the so called master plumbers, that its more than opinion, it's years of experance. Blah blah blah ... It's glue and pipe. Kinda like building model air planes. keep on doing what your doing, Don't let these people bring you down. Get your GED and any other things that will help you in the field you choose to follow. :)

[Bogart]

Aaron,
you are the new kid on the crew. You get ripped for everything, that's the way it's been since the first pilgrim plumber landed at Plymouth Rock and started ripping on Squanto's outhose. I was a 32 year old first year apprentice. My plumbing shop employer went out of business and I got sent to a job as a fitter. My new name was "RD," short for Running Dummy. I got ripped daily because I was: old, from a different local, and worst of all, my union card said plumber. To paraphrase Krusty the Klown, I rip because I love.

[All Clear Sewer]

dude I was working at 16 and not smoking POT, drinking beer but no smoking pot! I went to work for a union plumbing outfit. I didn't last long as I didn't finish school because I was to cocky and knew more then anyone. The union plumber use to treat me like (well you know) I was 16 and could run any tractor ever built and install anything any plumber could but my being cocky and not finishing high school killed it for me. I could give you my life story but the server would go down after that post. Lets just say I never gave up on plumbing but went in to building custom cars. I made a ton of money but got bored and look where I`m at again. Hey Now, I`m the owner and I work punks like I use to be, but I respect em for people not disrespect em like I was. Some of em work out and some of em dont. i now live in a big *** house and have many play toys only people dream about having. I`ll show you some time if you`d like. Anyway, my point is you will have to learn what I learned. Always ask, never take it to heart, do your best and always make sure you learn something new every day! Never bite the helping hand and never talk crap on any one as it will always come back 10 times even if you were right. I always say "well, I don't know" when people talk down on other people in business. You, young man, have a long road a head of you and I bet it pissed you off me calling you a young man ;) but it`s true.
Always ask and always learn! the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask ;)