Trenchless or Pipe bursting

[Crappy days]

Hi Guys, Do any of you do trench less sewer liners or pipe bursting. If so what material or brand are you using. Do you like it, what was the upfront or total cost ( if you don't mind disclosing ). How do you charge and what do you charge. If you had the choice between direct repair or lining or pipe bursting what would be your choice. Does the product sell it self or do you have to push it on your customers. Please elaborate.

[PLUMBER RICK]

crappy, i bought a pipe bursting machine 5 years ago.

since i don't sell unnecessary repairs/ work. the machine has not paid for itself. with an outlay of almost 50k. machine, butt fusion machine for the hdpe pipe. trailer, horizontal boring equipment, and alot of blood, sweat and tears. not to mention alot of b.s. by the manufacturer and his unkept promises.

i wouldn't suggest it at this time.

i know that there are alot of people doing this type of work. both trenchless pipe bursting and relining. the majority of the jobs i see are not necessary.

just because a pipe has roots, doesn't mean that it needs to be replaced, relined.

if you're really interested in getting into this work. mrs seat down and i will be glad to sell you a slightly used trenchless machine with all the goodies. mrs seat down will even show you how to properly assemble it, and operate it.

the 2 of us can do the entire job. i'm the beast that has to move it around and she's the beauty that operates it and pulls off the job:D

relining only works with a properly cleaned line that is in pretty good condition. any offset will be duplicated by the liner.

pipe bursting is more work, but it doesn't require a good line. it totally replaces the existing pipe with hdpe.

unfortunately others are just out to sell jobs and don't worry about educating the consumer. i've had other companies tell me not to tell the owner the line is ok to use. trying to sell them a new sewer. i tell the other company that i'm not interested in their work. hence why i don't do as many jobs as others do.

joey can use a little vacation. san diego has got to be cooler than here.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

Hi John,

Permaliner is a huge distributor of liner material. I don't own the machine, but when I worked for a company that did, we made alot of money the first year, then 2 things happened, one, everyone started doing it, and two, the cities, especially manhattan beach, do not want it installed in the street, they want it dug up, so check with your city and make sure they won't give you grief when you go to pull a permit. I personally wouldn't do it now because everyone is doing it and there will always be someone less expensive and customers are price checking it constantly. not sure how big your crew is, you need atleast two guys trained in liners, plus a trailer or a truck outfitted for it. If you make a mistake blowing it into the line, you have to dig in the street, make sure you are C-42 licensed, (sanitation) whats nice about permaliner over the pull or butt fusion, is that you can dig the 6 x 4, blow a 6" liner and then turn the equipment and blow a 4", complete sewer rehabilitation in 1-2 days, plus inspection. butt fusion is nice, but unlike the liner, you need 2 points of penetration:eek:Hole A to set up the pipe, and Hole B to set up the ram or pull machine. cheaper then the liner. call me if you have more questions. with the pull machine, I pulled a 3" main through the bedroom window approx 70" under the slab, through the old cast, and cut to make my branch ties, I have pictures, it was great, now, flip side, when we first attempted this, we lifted the side of the house, the head became stuck in the footing, we had to break out both sides of the slab, then break out around the head, it won't always fit through the hole of the footing

[Crappy days]

I don't plan on buying any equipment in the near future or for that matter in the distant future. I was just curious , because I subbed out a liner job today. This was the second job in about 3 or so years. The only reason I referred the customer to liner is because of access. The home is 3 stories with the bottom story below ground level from the front of the home. In this situation I think the liner was the right choice. To dig the line up it would have been double or even triple the cost and thats without concrete or landscape repair. The only time I would consider liner or pipe bursting would be in situations similar to this . where the cost of surface repairs would just be astronomical.

Oh in case you are wondering the house was built in 1927. The original cast iron main is about 12 feet deep and has about 8 different areas with root intrusions. This is over a span of 30 feet with a total length of 44 feet. Other than the roots the pipe is in good shape. I suggested to the home owner this process before the line collapses.

[gear junkie]

Robert, can you post the pics? Never done or seen this type of work before. Thanks

[Aaron91]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like too see some pictures as well. I've heard of this type of work, but have not seen it or done it.

[westcoastplumber]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like too see some pictures as well. I've heard of this type of work, but have not seen it or done it.

Not sure if pic will work,gotta ask my wife

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[westcoastplumber]

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[gear junkie]

Great pics Robert. I think I got the idea from what I saw but how do you ensure the right slope? Are there any web sites for me to learn more about the process. All the sites I saw were mostly for homeowners.

[westcoastplumber]

Great pics Robert. I think I got the idea from what I saw but how do you ensure the right slope? Are there any web sites for me to learn more about the process. All the sites I saw were mostly for homeowners.


that is the one bad thing, you cannot guarantee grade at all. We had a DHL move into a large building, the sewer kept backing up, approx, 500 employees, I was out there 3-4 times every 7 days with a hydro jetter. Lack of c/o's and the line was over 300 feet long. I ran my camera, found out that the sewer ran lessthen 1% to negative 2% in some places:eek: Before DHL moved in, they had the building remodeled, as builts were wrong, someone dropped the ball and added bathrooms on a very poor main drain, DHL ships 24/7, constant movement, large shipping hub, we were unable to trench out this section without getting in engineers and much planning, so to give the owner of the property time to get all his ducks in a row, and DHL the needed time to prepare, we pulled 280' of the 300' line, to the exterior, made 3 holes, and pulled 100' at a time, installed c/o's every 100', finished in 1 night, 6pm-7am, cleaned up by 8:30, bought the company 3 months to plan, they paid me to go over 2 times a week and monitor the building drain, it was flat and negative in places, running half full, but still draining, no stoppage for those 3 months. sdr17 is smooth inside, so it will drain flat like ABS and Plastic, it just dosen't self scour the pipe. One thing about butt fusion, when you fuse the pipe toghether, you get a lip inside, it is a small lip, but a lip, dosen't seem to affect the drainage properties and is IAPMO and UPC approved, never had any problems getting it inspected.

[All Clear Sewer]

I was thinking about getting it to this kind of work last year but my better thinking told me it dosent work. If you have a large root pushing in on the sewer, that root will always be there unless you dig it up and remove it. If theres a drop any where in the line it will still be there. What ever problem the line has will always be there. A linner is just a copy of whats already there.

Bursting is also a joke because of the same problems. You burst the line and that big a$$ root moves over a little and a year or so later it`s back pushing on the sewer.

Just say "NO" to Trenchless!



Before anyone says it, YES there are times when it can work. Like rusted cast but it seems that the trenchless guy`s try to sale the work on every job and it just dosent work that way ;)

You just cant replace the man on some things.

[Pipe Bursting]

I use trenchless and I also will use the excavator to replace the lateral,just depends on the problem.If the line is going down a steep hill it would be stupid to dig it up,pipebursting is the answer.Up here the inspector wants to be present for pre and post camera of the line,if any bellies exist we dig it up.If I am to replace to the city trunk and it's 21 feet deep and 95 feet long,I would rather only dig 2 holes and pipeburst than to trench the whole thing,get rid of all the dirt,bring in rock or slurry for the entire length of the trench,not to mention the extra shoring,trenchplates,traffic control,.Some instances trenching is not worth it

[PLUMBER RICK]

. One thing about butt fusion, when you fuse the pipe together, you get a lip inside, it is a small lip, but a lip, doesn't seem to affect the drainage properties and is IAPMO and UPC approved, never had any problems getting it inspected.

robert, we are suppose to ream the fused butt joint:eek:

you never ream:confused: i always ream:)

rick.

all clear, if there is a big root pressing on the existing line , the bursting head will offset to get around it. just like how i can pull around a 45 fitting. the pull will basically absorb small offsets. whereas in pipe lining, what you start with is what you end with. if there is a bad section, then you mimic the line with the liner.

i feel that bursting is a much better process than a liner. the new sdr17 pipe is bullet proof. i always take a 4'' sample and hit it with a 10# sledge hammer while on the ground. try that with anything else;)

rick.

[Crappy days]

I think both of these forms of repair have their place. There are allot of homes in San Diego that have proper grade. They are just have old cast or clay with deterioration allowing root intrusion. The only thing is it seems as though in most cases they cost as much as I charge for trenching and repair. The contractor I subbed this to is one of the less expensive ones. He still quoted 5,950.00 and this is without having to dig. The total length of liner will be about 34 '. He will also be replacing approx 6 ' of 4" cast iron and fittings to ABS. When I asked how long the job would take he said one long day.

Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing the price as the equipment is not cheap. Although if this was a regular one level lot. I would have bid it about the same to trench and repair. The total job is running 6,500.00 this is including the 10 percent referral fee I will receive.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I think both of these forms of repair have their place. There are allot of homes in San Diego that have proper grade. They are just have old cast or clay with deterioration allowing root intrusion. The only thing is it seems as though in most cases they cost as much as I charge for trenching and repair. The contractor I subbed this to is one of the less expensive ones. He still quoted 5,950.00 and this is without having to dig. The total length of liner will be about 34 '. He will also be replacing approx 6 ' of 4" cast iron and fittings to ABS. When I asked how long the job would take he said one long day.

Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing the price as the equipment is not cheap. Although if this was a regular one level lot. I would have bid it about the same to trench and repair.

should have called me, i would have been under $2000.:eek:

and yes, i have been hired to work in san diego. just charge a travel charge.

rick.

[Crappy days]

Rick, do you have lining equipment and if so what brand. Pipe bursting would not have been ideal for this project. Not disputing what you charge, but that seems low considering the equipment cost from what ive been quoted is 30 grand and up.

[gear junkie]

robert, we are suppose to ream the fused butt joint:eek:

you never ream:confused: i always ream:)

rick.

rick.

Now fusion welding I understand. The pipe we used was 40 ft long. We didn't ream the inside either but it was pressurized sewer pipe. With 40 ' long pipe, how do you ream the inside? On a side note; it called a CHT line, what does that mean? I've asked countless engineers who have no clue.

[DuckButter]

Now fusion welding I understand. The pipe we used was 40 ft long. We didn't ream the inside either but it was pressurized sewer pipe. With 40 ' long pipe, how do you ream the inside? On a side note; it called a CHT line, what does that mean? I've asked countless engineers who have no clue.

In the Navy "CHT" was waste lines on a ship.

[gear junkie]

I know that but what does it stand for?

[DuckButter]

I know that but what does it stand for?
Unfortunately your on yer own..I was simply told to replace the "C" with an "S" and add an "I" to remember what it was.

[gear junkie]

I just googled it. One definition that might be plausible is "collection, holding & transfer". Kinda sounds like it might apply.

[DuckButter]

Yeah, I got about ten pages into a websearch and got everything from "Chinese herbal treatment" to "Control heat transfer".

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick, do you have lining equipment and if so what brand. Pipe bursting would not have been ideal for this project. Not disputing what you charge, but that seems low considering the equipment cost from what ive been quoted is 30 grand and up.

read my original post. i have pipe bursting equipment. with the trailer and all the fixins it is approx. 50k.

Now fusion welding I understand. The pipe we used was 40 ft long. We didn't ream the inside either but it was pressurized sewer pipe. With 40 ' long pipe, how do you ream the inside? On a side note; it called a CHT line, what does that mean? I've asked countless engineers who have no clue.

ben the reamer consist of 3- 7' sections and a drill arbor. it has a 4'' cutter that spins via a drill motor. just assy. and push to the joint, start drill and cut out the bead.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

robert, we are suppose to ream the fused butt joint:eek:

you never ream:confused: i always ream:)

rick.

all clear, if there is a big root pressing on the existing line , the bursting head will offset to get around it. just like how i can pull around a 45 fitting. the pull will basically absorb small offsets. whereas in pipe lining, what you start with is what you end with. if there is a bad section, then you mimic the line with the liner.

i feel that bursting is a much better process than a liner. the new sdr17 pipe is bullet proof. i always take a 4'' sample and hit it with a 10# sledge hammer while on the ground. try that with anything else;)

rick.

rick, question, the inspector never called it, many inspectors never called it. I did $200,000 in trenchless sdr in it's hay day, and I never once had an inspector call it. I wasn't the installers, but I ran the jobs, if it was a problem, I would have found out really quick. UPC say's there cannot be any restrictions, but it dosen't say anything about reaming sdr in the 2006 upc, if it does, please give me the code section and I will stand corrected. I know that ABS has to be reamed, but not fusion pipe. although I don't do trenchless anymore, I would like to find out who makes the equipment to ream it, who do you purchase it from??

[Crappy days]

Rick, I know you said you have pipe bursting equipment. I was wondering if you had liner equipment also and what brand it is. Plus how can you afford to do 34 ' of pipe bursting plus 6' of cast change out for 2,000.00. At those prices it seems as though you are giving it away. If you read my post I said the pipe was around 12 ' deep. Prep alone for that hole would be costly. Again I'm not disputing your prices but that seams awfully low.

[BAPlumber]

UPC say's there cannot be any restrictions, but it dosen't say anything about reaming sdr in the 2006 upc, if it does, please give me the code section and I will stand corrected.

Forgive my ignorance, but the last CE course I took, the instructor said that California was still using a UPC from the 90's. What UPC version are you using?

Maybe my instructor had his head up his ***.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick, I know you said you have pipe bursting equipment. I was wondering if you had liner equipment also and what brand it is. Plus how can you afford to do 34 ' of pipe bursting plus 6' of cast change out for 2,000.00. At those prices it seems as though you are giving it away. If you read my post I said the pipe was around 12 ' deep. Prep alone for that hole would be costly. Again I'm not disputing your prices but that seams awfully low.

crappy, the price i mentioned was not for digging. just for pipe pulling and not connecting to the old pipe. that's what you're for as the contractor. i am the sub and just supply and pull the pipe. remember it only takes myself and joey to do the job. not a whole crew of guys standing around watching:D

if it was my job as a whole, then i would have to figure the digging and the reconnection as an additional price. also the backfilling and re-compaction too.

plus i only do work on the properties owners side. no public works or right of way.

i don't own liner equipment. i did initially invest in a so called territory to hold it, but then i decided against it and joey got my deposit back:D

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

rick, question, the inspector never called it, many inspectors never called it. I did $200,000 in trenchless sdr in it's hay day, and I never once had an inspector call it. I wasn't the installers, but I ran the jobs, if it was a problem, I would have found out really quick. UPC say's there cannot be any restrictions, but it dosen't say anything about reaming sdr in the 2006 upc, if it does, please give me the code section and I will stand corrected. I know that ABS has to be reamed, but not fusion pipe. although I don't do trenchless anymore, I would like to find out who makes the equipment to ream it, who do you purchase it from??

5 years ago it was difficult to find a reamer and the 1 that was avaliable was $2500:eek: so i designed my own:)

the inner bead is approx. 1/8''-3/16'' bead. not much different than a no hub band. still i ream it.

never heard that you need to ream abs:confused: my cutters don't leave a ridge. i use both a plastic tubing cutter and a special pull saw. neither of them leave any burrs.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

I do not ream my ABS either, there isn't a large enough ledge to cause a problem. When I was in that 8 month code class I remember the inspector saying we should ream the ABS because when we use our cutters it leaves a ledge. I haven't mean't anyone that reams ABS. I always use my plastic cutters on all ABS pipe, I like to have smooth, clean flush cut's;) (except for the ledge they leave):eek: what does the "special pull saw" look like? is that just the metal rope?

[PLUMBER RICK]

I do not ream my ABS either, there isn't a large enough ledge to cause a problem. When I was in that 8 month code class I remember the inspector saying we should ream the ABS because when we use our cutters it leaves a ledge. I haven't mean't anyone that reams ABS. I always use my plastic cutters on all ABS pipe, I like to have smooth, clean flush cut's;) (except for the ledge they leave):eek: what does the "special pull saw" look like? is that just the metal rope?

ahh grasshopper, the pull saw is a "japanese" fine tooth very sharp saw;)

it leaves very little burrs and will cut faster and smoother than anything. a sawzall is fast but not smooth.

now on with the wax:D

rick

[westcoastplumber]

ahh grasshopper, the pull saw is a "japanese" fine tooth very sharp saw;)

it leaves very little burrs and will cut faster and smoother than anything. a sawzall is fast but not smooth.

now on with the wax:D

rick


hmmmm, I think a regular abs saw will cut just the same, but thanks for the hint rick.;) I take the extra time to cut it with my plastic roll :Dcutters.

[PLUMBER RICK]

hmmmm, I think a regular abs saw will cut just the same, but thanks for the hint rick.;) I take the extra time to cut it with my plastic roll :Dcutters.

not even a comparison. my abs saws are junk compared to a pull saw.

as far as a tubing cutter for abs, i have them all the way to 6''. but you got to be a beast to hold and turn 6''. also can't work in a wall or a ditch with a "roll cutter"

grasshopper, spend the $20.00 on the saw, same offer goes. if you don't like it, i will buy it.

now i won't give you the moneyback guarantee on a k-40. i might have money to spend, but i'm not stupid:rolleyes:

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

ok, I will keep your saw in mind master;)