Starting Drain Cleaning business - Need advice

[HouseOfAtlas]

I am planning on starting a drain cleaning service and need some advice. I've been doing plumbing work for about 5 years and believe I know enough to get started. I know I have a lot to learn, but I've learned alot from the drain cleaning guys that I've worked with in on different jobs in the past. But some of the stories I hear are kind of scary :eek:

I have helped our main sewer guy carry his Spartan 300 machine up and down stairs so I know how much of a PITA it can be LOL! But, besides him (he's very busy with his own work), it has been really hard to find a good drain cleaning guy that will be where he says he'll be and can communicate well.

I plan on getting the Spartan 300 for main drains and then the Spartan 100 with 3 different drums (with different sized cable) to use on 1 1/4 - 3" lines.

In the future, once funds are available, I would like to get a camera and do recorded tapings of main drains. Any thoughts on what type of setup to get?

Lastly, for those that dig up the yard and install a new cleanout, what process do you use??

Thanks in advance to all those that can help out :)

[freddy]

Welcome to the forum. Not sure of the cost But you could get a ridgid k- 60 and handle most of the jobs you may have. The down side is it a sectional cable machine. The good side is it's not going to beat your back up as much. You use 7/8" cable on drain 2" to 4" and 5/8" for 1-1/2 to 2" and hand held drills for smaller drain lines. As for digging up yard for clean outs. Most are done by hand digging most are only 3 feet deep. Good luck:)

[gear junkie]

There's enough past threads on drain cleaning equipment to read for days. I saw you're 24, I hope you know what you're doing and I wish you the best of luck in your business venture. I've been doing HVAC for around 10 yrs and plumbing for 9 and I'm not sure if I could have my own business. Best of luck.

Ben

[PLUMBER RICK]

hoa, as ben has mentioned, there is tons of good info here on drain cleaning equipment. just start a searc or view some of the other parts of the plumbing forum.

the spartan 300 is a 5/8'' machine. not sure if it up to the big root jobs.

you might want to consider a k-7500 3/4'' drum machine or k-1500 1.25'' sectional machine. also the k-60 is my favorite all around machine for roof tops to lots of stairs.

do some reading and come back with more questions. better grab a snack as there is plenty already posted in this forum.:D

rick.

[HouseOfAtlas]

Welcome to the forum. Not sure of the cost But you could get a ridgid k- 60 and handle most of the jobs you may have. The down side is it a sectional cable machine. The good side is it's not going to beat your back up as much. You use 7/8" cable on drain 2" to 4" and 5/8" for 1-1/2 to 2" and hand held drills for smaller drain lines. As for digging up yard for clean outs. Most are done by hand digging most are only 3 feet deep. Good luck:)

Here in Minnesota, we have basements that are 5+ feet below the ground. I would assume some sort of machine would need to be used for these situations. Of course, there are split level houses where the the 3 foot deep rule would apply.

I agree that having the sectional cable machine would save on my back. I hit the gym on a daily basis and I would guess maybe dragging the Spartan 300 up and down the stairs would drain me quite a bit. I'll definitely look into the sectional machines. I guess the only reason sectionals can be bad is one would have to lay them out on the floor and would stain something if they are dirty, but that is what lots of tarps or cloth-like tarps would be used for :)

Thanks again for the advice

There's enough past threads on drain cleaning equipment to read for days. I saw you're 24, I hope you know what you're doing and I wish you the best of luck in your business venture. I've been doing HVAC for around 10 yrs and plumbing for 9 and I'm not sure if I could have my own business. Best of luck.

Ben

Thanks!

Running a plumbing or HVAC business would be kind of hard to do. That is why I'd just do drains mostly and I would have less overhead, less chance of getting a messy van, I wouldn't have to deal with too many parts and keeping inventory, etc.

hoa, as ben has mentioned, there is tons of good info here on drain cleaning equipment. just start a searc or view some of the other parts of the plumbing forum.

the spartan 300 is a 5/8'' machine. not sure if it up to the big root jobs.

you might want to consider a k-7500 3/4'' drum machine or k-1500 1.25'' sectional machine. also the k-60 is my favorite all around machine for roof tops to lots of stairs.

do some reading and come back with more questions. better grab a snack as there is plenty already posted in this forum.:D

rick.

I guess I didn't realize that the 300 was only a 5/8" machine. I must've overlooked it. I'm assuming that extra 1/8" will help with the tough roots, correct?

I was curious as to what you prefer? Do you like the sectional machine or the k7500 machine?

I'll grab some cheap frozen pizzas and read all day tomorrow :D

Thanks again for all the help and advice, guys. I really do appreciate. Getting valuable information from the experienced guys is truly priceless!

[PLUMBER RICK]

I guess I didn't realize that the 300 was only a 5/8" machine. I must've overlooked it. I'm assuming that extra 1/8" will help with the tough roots, correct?

I was curious as to what you prefer? Do you like the sectional machine or the k7500 machine?

I'll grab some cheap frozen pizzas and read all day tomorrow :D

Thanks again for all the help and advice, guys. I really do appreciate. Getting valuable information from the experienced guys is truly priceless!

had to repost, thanks joey:mad:

the 5/8'' cable and 300 spartan is rated for up to 6'' pipe. the 1065 is an animal. if you have good luck with the 5/8'' great. otherwise get a 7500 drum machine and it will run both 5/8'' and 3/4''. also the spartan ends are very close to the ridgid ends and a little filing and you're set.;)

what distance do you typically run? what do you bring back? i use both sectional and drum. each has it's advantage. sectional are new to me for the last few years. i wish i knew about them 30 years ago. i would still be a young man. i didn't know mark back then. you're lucky ben, you got it while you're still young.

since you're in basements most of the time, you will probably like the sectional machines better. unless you like to carry 250# up and down the stairs.

better get enough meals for the whole weekend as there is lots to catch up on. summer school has started:D

rick.

[stxrus]

HOA, first of congratulations on you r new business and good luck. there is NOTHING more fulfilling than beingyour own boss. it means hard work, long hours,and no one to blame when you mess up.calso the bos canbe a real PITA sometimes :)

as the owner/operator of a Drain Cleaning service here i made some decisions before i got started.

i decided to stay with residential and light commercial.

i decided thyat i would do everything i could to get to everyone as timely as possible. there are too many "trades" here that are lazy, incompitent, and just shiftless.

sometimes i have to prioritize. a slow or backed sink is less of an emergency than a toilet spewing sewage in someones house.

if i can't do a job, i'll be honest and say so. i will refer to someone with the proper tools if i don't have them and will say so. this has gotten me repeat business on smaller problems.


treat everyone with respect.

i only use sectional machines. currently a K-50 and K-75. the K-60 (thank you Rick) is on the list.

i ONLY do drain cleaning. plumbing issue sare refered to plumbers. they in return refer me for cleaning problems.

i've been in business for 14 months now. i have a good reputation, people know me (i get folks in stores that "shout" me because they remember me doing a good job.) and i am making a good living. i charge more than any plumber here and people gladly pay it. BTW, i an T&M

the point of all of this is if you do decent work, be respectful, be honest, you stand a good chance of survival. this is the 2nd time i've had my own business and i'd never work for another a**hole than myself:)

there are some very knowledgable folks here. listen and read and you can learn a lot

again, GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!

steve

[HouseOfAtlas]

had to repost, thanks joey:mad:

the 5/8'' cable and 300 spartan is rated for up to 6'' pipe. the 1065 is an animal. if you have good luck with the 5/8'' great. otherwise get a 7500 drum machine and it will run both 5/8'' and 3/4''. also the spartan ends are very close to the ridgid ends and a little filing and you're set.;)

what distance do you typically run? what do you bring back? i use both sectional and drum. each has it's advantage. sectional are new to me for the last few years. i wish i knew about them 30 years ago. i would still be a young man. i didn't know mark back then. you're lucky ben, you got it while you're still young.

since you're in basements most of the time, you will probably like the sectional machines better. unless you like to carry 250# up and down the stairs.

better get enough meals for the whole weekend as there is lots to catch up on. summer school has started:D

rick.

Summer school? LOL!

The guy that is our main drain guy has used the Spartan 300 since he first started and never used anything else for mains. If the distance is more than 150 feet, he says to call someone else. Of course, like myself, people like using what has worked for THEM. I'm more fond of running copper in a house than pex tubing. Why? I don't know, just because it looks cleaner and I like solder over crimps.

But, the sectionals seem to look like a great option. A lot of houses I've been in for plumbing work have very narrow staircases and there is no way a Spartan 300 would fit down there, let alone the k7500. If I'm not mistaken, the k7500 is about 3" wider. Also, a lot of the steps going downstairs look like they'd fall right through if I brought the big drum machine down it LOL!

I believe you can't overbuild something. So having a machine like the k7500 would probably be something that I would like to have where the access to the downstairs is wide enough to let me bring the machine down

Thanks again, Rick, for the help. I'm sure you'll help me more in the future and I'll be in debt with you forever :)

HOA, first of congratulations on you r new business and good luck. there is NOTHING more fulfilling than beingyour own boss. it means hard work, long hours,and no one to blame when you mess up.calso the bos canbe a real PITA sometimes :)

as the owner/operator of a Drain Cleaning service here i made some decisions before i got started.

i decided to stay with residential and light commercial.

i decided thyat i would do everything i could to get to everyone as timely as possible. there are too many "trades" here that are lazy, incompitent, and just shiftless.

sometimes i have to prioritize. a slow or backed sink is less of an emergency than a toilet spewing sewage in someones house.

if i can't do a job, i'll be honest and say so. i will refer to someone with the proper tools if i don't have them and will say so. this has gotten me repeat business on smaller problems.


treat everyone with respect.

i only use sectional machines. currently a K-50 and K-75. the K-60 (thank you Rick) is on the list.

i ONLY do drain cleaning. plumbing issue sare refered to plumbers. they in return refer me for cleaning problems.

i've been in business for 14 months now. i have a good reputation, people know me (i get folks in stores that "shout" me because they remember me doing a good job.) and i am making a good living. i charge more than any plumber here and people gladly pay it. BTW, i an T&M

the point of all of this is if you do decent work, be respectful, be honest, you stand a good chance of survival. this is the 2nd time i've had my own business and i'd never work for another a**hole than myself:)

there are some very knowledgable folks here. listen and read and you can learn a lot

again, GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!

steve

Steve,

I totally agree with your business ethics. I like to be upfront with the customer, honest and communicate. If I'm running late, I'll call the customers and let them know. Also, I'm not the type of guy that says, "I can do anything". I know my limits.

Also, our plumbing company is rated really well on Angie's List. For those not familiar with it, its a website where people can rate contractors and people can look for referrals and see what companies are good. Not to boast, but a big part of that is due to the work myself and another guy have done and our communication with the customer.

As for how much to charge, the rates I was thinking of starting at are lower than almost all of the drain companies we have dealt with in the past. Of course, I'm a rookie so I guess that goes hand in hand.

Thanks again for the help guys!! :)

[All Clear Sewer]

As for how much to charge, the rates I was thinking of starting at are lower than almost all of the drain companies we have dealt with in the past. Of course, I'm a rookie so I guess that goes hand in hand.

Thanks again for the help guys!! :)

We would call you a ***** ***** ** *****. If your work is not worth what others charge then go get a job ;) I`m the highest price sewer guy in out town and I`m worth it. Below standard price means most likely below standard work to most people. If you do good work and work on your people skills price wont matter. If you only want to make a living, just get a job. There is a reason people charge what they charge, Ins, Truck repairs, tooling, add`s, you name it because you will be paying it. Think about it before you go out of your way to cut others prices just to get the job. Not a good way to do business.

[HouseOfAtlas]

We would call you a ***** ***** ** *****. If your work is not worth what others charge then go get a job ;) I`m the highest price sewer guy in out town and I`m worth it. Below slandered price means most likely below standard work to most people. If you do good work and work on your people skills price wont matter. If you only want to make a living, just get a job. There is a reason people charge what they charge, Ins, Truck repairs, tooling, add`s, you name it because you will be paying it. Think about it before you go out of your way to cut others prices just to get the job. Not a good way to do business.

I just get a bunch of stars at the beginning of your paragraph.

As for the price thing, give me a break on that LOL! I'm only 24 :)

Right now, I'm getting $16/hour per billable hour and never asked for a raise. Like I said, I didn't think I would be in plumbing this long. I was going to be a home inspector when I was 18, but my mind was always changing.

My home inspector teacher told us that we shouldn't charge too low because customers will think they aren't getting as much information as someone who charges more and one shouldn't charge an astronomical amount because they won't get as much business. So, in other words, I agree with you.

I do want to do my best and treat every job as it was my own. I'm not looking to make a quick dollar. I'll spend the extra time talking to the customer and letting them know their problem and making them understand it. I want to treat them with respect and not just see their problem as dollar signs.

As for cutting others prices, it's not like I will be cutting them way below. I would be in the "market range" as others in my area. I don't believe my inexperience as a drain cleaner is worth as much as those that have been doing it for years. Unless someone has some words of wisdom that would change my mind. I'm open to all constructive criticism :)

[All Clear Sewer]

If you think your work is not worth as much as others then your not ready to go out on your own.
Please don't think I`m picking on you because "I`m not".

"If" you don't believe you have the experience then people wont get a fair job at any price. We learn something every day and yes even cleaning sewers you can learn allot. The day you know it all, is the day to stop! There`s a fine line in there. ;)

You need to change your way of thinking or you will never make it on your own.

[stxrus]

tossing my $.20 before taxes in here. be careful on your pricing. if you are the cheapest in town it may come back to bite you in the future.

i'm sorry but drain cleaning is not Rocket Surgery, but it is a job most would rather not do. keep in mind your equipment, daily costs, wear and tear, advertising, insurance, etc. if you can't cover these then you are doomed. sad but true.

you can always buffer your billed rate from your hourly rate. if you think a job took 1/2 houer longer than necessary because of your "inexperience" then charge 1/2 hour less. sometimes i cut a customer a break (maybe a 1/4 hour or not charge to reset a toilet) because they were nice or maybe not have a lot of money or because i was a few minutes later than my projrcted arrival or sometimes just for good will. i get fresh magoes and johnny cake from one client because i charged her what she truely could afford. i also have 3 referals from her.

i suggest you market yourself slightly above the median of your market. if you need to adjust your rates after a quarter or year then do so. let your existing clients know, when they call, there has been an adjustment in rates. they will probably be understanding if you have a good working relation with them.

again good luck with it.

steve

[HouseOfAtlas]

If you think your work is not worth as much as others then your not ready to go out on your own.
Please don't think I`m picking on you because "I`m not".

"If" you don't believe you have the experience then people wont get a fair job at any price. We learn something every day and yes even cleaning sewers you can learn allot. The day you know it all, is the day to stop! There`s a fine line in there. ;)

You need to change your way of thinking or you will never make it on your own.

I know you're not picking on me. I believe, from the experiences that I've been through, I can hang with the rest of the plumbers in my field :D

We have done jobs other plumbers didn't want to do. A lot of plumbers in my area don't like busting up the double bay cement tubs in the basements and haul out the cement chunks, but we have never past up a job like that.
Also, we've been called a few times to replace galvanized drain pipes (the sanitary T, etc.) that the kitchen drains into because other plumbers don't want to bust open the wall, cram a sawzall under the sink and cut out the section, etc. Of course, we'll do it LOL! The worse one is when we have to bust out an old cast iron boiler that looks like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vitodens/21117837/

It's not that I don't think my work is up to par, I guess it's just my way of thinking. Of course, you guys are right as usual and I need to change that!!

And Steve, I agree with the way you bill. We've given a customer a break the first time around and then they called us back for more work and wonder why the bill was more the second time.

Also, If I'm an hour and 15 minutes into the job and finish, I might/might not charge for that quarter hour. It all depends.

Thanks for the encouragement, guys :)

[freddy]

You might want to charge close to what the guy you have worked for charged, and after you get a average time that it takes to do main lines, sink stoppage, and so on. You can come up to a set price, or dare I say it Flat RATE PRICE :D:D Then you should be covering your cost, and making money. Most people want to know the cost for your service first. As far as the double tubs. I haul them out in one piece, and re-sell them if the are usable, some people still like that old stuff. :) freddy

[All Clear Sewer]

now you are thinking better ;) dont cut yourself short on price just to get work.
Just do the best you can, and work will come to you :D and the price wont matter then ;)

[westcoastplumber]

We have done jobs other plumbers didn't want to do. A lot of plumbers in my area don't like busting up the double bay cement tubs in the basements and haul out the cement chunks, but we have never past up a job like that.
Also, we've been called a few times to replace galvanized drain pipes (the sanitary T, etc.) that the kitchen drains into because other plumbers don't want to bust open the wall, cram a sawzall under the sink and cut out the section, etc. Of course, we'll do it LOL! The worse one is when we have to bust out an old cast iron boiler that looks like this:


What kind of plumbers do you have in minnesota? I love to demo work. I have no problem cutting it out and replaceing it, especially if it helps the customer in the long run. I know back east there are drain cleaners and plumbers, here in los angeles, we do it all, the worse it smells, the more it pays:D I do have a question, maybe I missed it in the past post's, do you need a license to be a drain cleaner? what are the consumer laws?? licensing laws for contractors? By the way, congrats on a great attitude at 24. two things of advice, your invoices are your best friend, and communication is priceless:D:D

[HouseOfAtlas]

You might want to charge close to what the guy you have worked for charged, and after you get a average time that it takes to do main lines, sink stoppage, and so on. You can come up to a set price, or dare I say it Flat RATE PRICE :D:D Then you should be covering your cost, and making money. Most people want to know the cost for your service first. As far as the double tubs. I haul them out in one piece, and re-sell them if the are usable, some people still like that old stuff. :) freddy

That sounds like a good idea for pricing :)

Hauling a cement double tub up the stairs isn't fun. That's a lot of cement. I bet the thing weighs about 400 or so pounds. Also, the drains are about to bust off most of the time anyways. How the heck do you get them off and on the rusty old legs and if you sell them, how do you get it back on? That's right up there with the mystery on how they built the pyramids LOL!

now you are thinking better ;) dont cut yourself short on price just to get work.
Just do the best you can, and work will come to you :D and the price wont matter then ;)

Sounds good! Thanks again :)

We have done jobs other plumbers didn't want to do. A lot of plumbers in my area don't like busting up the double bay cement tubs in the basements and haul out the cement chunks, but we have never past up a job like that.
Also, we've been called a few times to replace galvanized drain pipes (the sanitary T, etc.) that the kitchen drains into because other plumbers don't want to bust open the wall, cram a sawzall under the sink and cut out the section, etc. Of course, we'll do it LOL! The worse one is when we have to bust out an old cast iron boiler that looks like this:


What kind of plumbers do you have in minnesota? I love to demo work. I have no problem cutting it out and replaceing it, especially if it helps the customer in the long run. I know back east there are drain cleaners and plumbers, here in los angeles, we do it all, the worse it smells, the more it pays:D I do have a question, maybe I missed it in the past post's, do you need a license to be a drain cleaner? what are the consumer laws?? licensing laws for contractors? By the way, congrats on a great attitude at 24. two things of advice, your invoices are your best friend, and communication is priceless:D:D

I'm sure some plumbers will do it, but we have gotten calls where other plumbers didn't want to touch it. Maybe other plumbers here have enough work that they don't have to do the "tough" jobs. A friend of mine got a call from his ex and she asked, "Why aren't you a millionaire yet?". My buddy was confused. She said that she called four plumbers and said the lowest price to pull an old (but newer) toilet and set a new one was $400 (this is the lowest bid). That was if she had a new toilet already there. We would probably charge $225 (includes new connector, wax seal, bolt kit, caulking, disposal of old one). Now, I'm not saying that it isn't worth $400+. I'm saying that other plumbers might just give a little bit of a high bid because they are already booked with work and if they get the job, they're willing to put other stuff on hold.

I'm not 100% sure, but I swore that in Minnesota, one doesn't need a plumbing license to do drain cleaning. Of course, I'll double check. I do work under a master plumber, but if I go out on my own, I'm not sure how that'll work out.

[All Clear Sewer]

I work under a master plumber too and he gives me all his sewer work. I give him all the big plumbing stuff I cant do or am not legal to do. I do hack a few every now and then but I use my head on what I do ;)

[freddy]

I work under a master plumber too and he gives me all his sewer work. I give him all the big plumbing stuff I cant do or am not legal to do. I do hack a few every now and then but I use my head on what I do ;)

Sure hope your master licence guy has super insurance coverage. If you have a bad day of luck on a water heater install for example. Not only will you be sued, but he will be screwed and sued. This guy is responsible for any thing you do. It only will take one mistake, and he will learn. Get licenced in what you do, and stick with that. Stop riding someone coat tails. I know you been doing it this way for years.No problems right? It's an accident waiting to happen.:eek: :)

[All Clear Sewer]

I dont do WH, I give em to him as my INS dosent cover them. I only do water leaks and sepitic installs /repairs. Small stuff that my INC covers ;) I`m a member of the ICC so trust me, I know what to do and what to let him do :D
Maybe some day I will get my masters but I`m happy with what I`m making doing sewers ;)

[Drain Medic]

I have been cleaning sewers for 11yrs now. I have been the Tech, Dispatcher, Admin., and Field Supervisor with my previous company. I started on my own at the beginning of the year. The best thing i ever did was wear alot of hats in that company, to learn the different aspects of it all. When my company decided to move, my wife and i said it was time to start our own business. We started with all new equipment. Spartan 2001 for the mains, Spartan 100 for the floor drains, kitchen sinks, roof drains, etc. and Spartan 81 for the smaller lines. We bought a Ridgid SeeSnake for the video inspections, Gen Eye locator to locate the camera head, and other tools of the trade. We started with a crappy van, with no logo. As you can guess i wasnt getting alot of business, and i had already knew why. Barely any advertising, crappy van, no identification on the van. The only work i was getting was word of mouth. Thanks to working in the office for a yr, i knew how i needed to get busy, the only problem was money.The best thing i did at the time, was sign on with a LEAD company. You have to pay for your leads, but it was well worth it, and the customers left good feedback.To make a long story short, today we have a brand new service van, logo'd and lettered. Top of the line equipment, even water jetting. We have adds in the yellow pages, local newspapers, direct mailing advertising as well. I found that the best way to charge is Flat Rate Pricing. Sure it takes some time and i took a few courses in it, but man what a difference. Sure i charge more then alot of the competitors in this business, but im well worth it, and i have the ratings, reviews and the repeat customers to show for it. The best advice i can give you from my personal experience is, Look sharp going to your customers, uniforms, clean shaven, use booties when entering a house, use mats on the floors when cleaning drains. Always clean up after yourself, even if you have to go beyond the mess you made. Give your prices upfront and let them know if there would be add on charges if different situations come up. Make sure you know what you need to charge before deciding what you will charge. You need to cover your overhead, billable hours etc,. If you have not started yet, target resident, advertise small in your local newspaper, just get your name out there. Anyway i could go on forever.Good Luck in the trade, i hope at least some of this made a difference for you, or answered some of your questions.

[Gene Bickford]

DAMM IT! I did it again. I wrote a long reply and some how wiped it all out:eek:.
Man I hate when I do that.

Drain Medic, Welcome to the forum, it sounds like you'll be a great asset.

"The best thing i did at the time, was sign on with a LEAD company. You have to pay for your leads, but it was well worth it, and the customers left good feedback."
I would love to hear more about signing on with a lead Co if you or anyone else has more info to offer. How to go about it, how much you offer them per lead etc..

[Drain Medic]

Gene, Thanks for the welcome. Feel free to PM me or email me at Drainmedicpa@aol.com I would be happy to give you more information on how to get started with leads. It worked out great for me.

Greg

[ccouch]

I live in Ga and in our town any person who messes with plumbing has to have a Master plumbing License.. I am 30 years old and have had mine for 2 years now. Even if you clean out drains you should be licensed as a plumber. If you advertise as a plumber you need a license to go with it. Btw...I charge $110.00 and hour and stay booked. Don't cut yourself short on the price. My dad always told me that "THere is no pride in bragging that your the cheapest man in town."

[Ozone89]

I live in Ga and in our town any person who messes with plumbing has to have a Master plumbing License.. I am 30 years old and have had mine for 2 years now. Even if you clean out drains you should be licensed as a plumber. If you advertise as a plumber you need a license to go with it. Btw...I charge $110.00 and hour and stay booked. Don't cut yourself short on the price. My dad always told me that "THere is no pride in bragging that your the cheapest man in town."

I couldn't of said it any better myself!!

Hands down..the first thing that should be done is..get your Plumbing license!

Plumbers should stick together cause we only have each other. I get sick to my stomach, when I hear a Plumber brag about being the lowest price. We call them "meal money" plumbers...they calculate how much it's going to cost them for gas,a meal for the day,etc.. and charge by that.

These are the same guys who are not in business 5 years later, cause they got in money trouble.

What these guys don't realize is..there is enough work for everyone out there. You only hurt the Plumbing trade and yourself, when you charge ridiculous prices like that.

What guys like that need is..a BASIC ECONOMICS CLASS!:eek:

[JERRYMAC]

where i have worked (5) western states, you do not need a plumbers lic. to do snake jobs, only "REAL" plumbing work. i have done work both ways you need to check with the plumbing or license board in your state to find out what may be required in your area?? you do however need to have a local Bussiness lic. to do work

JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

[Ozone89]

where i have worked (5) western states, you do not need a plumbers lic. to do snake jobs, only "REAL" plumbing work. i have done work both ways you need to check with the plumbing or license board in your state to find out what may be required in your area?? you do however need to have a local Bussiness lic. to do work

JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol

[JERRYMAC]

I agree that in aperfect world, people should know what they are doing!!
i have seen a lot of the same stuff that you talk about, but i am saying what goes on in this world that we live in, if you can rent a cable snake mach. any where in town. some can make money without carrying a master lic.
like i say i do check with the plumbing board where i work so i i know what they require to do drains, if you want to change this, change the laws in your state. JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

[HouseOfAtlas]

Thanks for the added input!! I value all of the knowledge I get from you guys. I'm so eager to start my own business, but my financial situation is holding me back. Once my house is sold (whenever that'll be), it will feel like a big burden lifted off of me.

For some reason, I feel a big difference mentally when I work for myself compared to when I work for someone else. I still treat customers with the utmost respect, but when working for myself, I have more say in what I can charge (give a break when needed), how I can communicate with the customers, etc.

I know having a business isn't a walk in the park, but I know it will keep me more motivated since I'll be by myself and I have to depend on myself. Plus, I feel it will help me become a stronger person.

[Drain Medic]

Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol

Good points, however....I cant tell you how many times ive been to properties in the last 10yrs (new construction mostly) that lines are put in backwards, no pitch, sags, traps in backwards....etc. Alot of plumbers that i know around here wont do drain cleaning, or simply cant do it. I have been to properties were traps were cocked, and the plumbers have done, licensed plumbers....Its really a no win situation. There are always going to be problems. I know that they have started lead programs, where you get screened to make sure that you are licensed, registered, and insured...I think that is great....i personally signed up with 4 different lead companies and they work great. Nothing bothers me more then going to Home Depot, and seeing snakes for rent...LOL....then you get a call from someone with a clogged drain...on your way to the job they call you and the homeowner says he rented a snake and openned it himself...Then while im driving back, same guy calls and says its clogged again.. Or you see these homeowners buying snakes, and they are still calling us anyway because they broke the snake, or cant get it unclogged.....save your 300-400bucks and call the pros.Greg

[draintech1]

Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol



I still am unclear where you're going with that. To say that putting your time in, paying your dues, studying the code book, taking a test and passing makes a person a better drain cleaner is craziness. I just found 5 homes last week, new homes, one house that had a family and 2 on each side of it that were not sold yet, and all five of the homes weren't connected to the city sewer. The tap for the city was there, the pipe going to the middle of the street was there, it just plain and simply wasn't hooked up. Now they have to dig up this brand new street, in five different spots, just to add, what, one foot of pipe to each. Would I trust that plumber within 100 feet of my cables or customers? Uhm, no. How about the one I found where the family just moved into an older home that was on a slab foundation, that just had the sewer line in the concrete replaced prior to them moving in, ran my cable and my camera and found out one joint in the middle of the living room had a j-cap on the end. Some plumber forgot to hook it up before the concrete was repoured. It was a 2 bath home and they had use of the other bathroom, but now they have to have the living room busted up again just to fix 6 inches of pipe. These are just two recently I have found, I've been in it since '97. There's more, and who was responsible for making sure these two plumbers were qualified and knowledgable?
I go for my license in a couple of months and I do figure if these two nitwits were able to pass it and make money, I should be just fine. But I'm a drain cleaner, and I'll always be a drain cleaner and this plumbing license will have very little to do with how well I clean a drain. I take great offense to being compared (directly or indirectly) to a handyman, carpenter or tile guy. Not because there is anything wrong with any of those three, that is their gig, their specialty, just as drain cleaning is mine. It's apples to oranges.
Bottom line, all cocked p-traps weren't done by drain cleaners. Some of us "un-qualified, un-knowledgable" drain cleaners still take pride in our work and won't leave a house if we think we're going to come back in a day or week for a related problem. There's good and bad in every profession but the way I've seen it, a plumbing license doesn't mean a person knows what he's doing just as no plumbing license doesn't mean a person doesn't know what he's doing. The license is just like a diploma from college, I did my time, I did what was needed, I studied with blood sweat and years and now I can charge for it.

[ToUtahNow]

Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?



Being licensed does not always mean much as there are some licensed clowns as well. Here is an example of a tub waste and overflow on a 180 unit project. This was new construction and not the only one which was installed this way.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

draintech 1, you bring up a good point.

this is a thread i started a while back. interesting reading and comments.

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=680&highlight=underqualified

a license means that you passed a test in business laws and trade knowledge. it doesn't mean you actually conduct your business in a legal and ethical fashion.

having a contractors license is not necessarily a guarantee the work you're doing is correct or legal. every few months the state of california releases a new list of contractors that their licenses were revoked. a license is suppose to protect the consumer, in most ways it does, it just takes time for the contractors board to catch up with you.

hiring a qualified plumber or drain cleaner is the key issue. the consumer has to do their homework too.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Being licensed does not always mean much as there are some licensed clowns as well. Here is an example of a tub waste and overflow on a 180 unit project. This was new construction and not the only one which was installed this way.

Mark

let me guess, this was in vegas:confused:

the old saying of what goes on in vegas, stays in vegas is not always true:rolleyes:

where you in vegas again? don't you vacation anywhere else:confused:

glad you're back:) thought that dog has gotten you and adam:D

who left robert in charge:eek::D:confused:

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

let me guess, this was in vegas:confused:

the old saying of what goes on in vegas, stays in vegas is not always true:rolleyes:

where you in vegas again? don't you vacation anywhere else:confused:

glad you're back:) thought that dog has gotten you and adam:D

who left robert in charge:eek::D:confused:

rick.

No it wasn't in Las Vegas and the picture is a couple of years old.

Yes I was in Las Vegas this week but it was one of those last minute things. Here I thought I had three weeks off to catch up on paperwork and I ended up in Vegas again. Now I have two days there next week and the full week the following week.

I left Robert in charge because I figured he was the only grown up left. Plus if anyone gave him any trouble Zeljka would take them out. ;)

Mark

[Ozone89]

I still am unclear where you're going with that. To say that putting your time in, paying your dues, studying the code book, taking a test and passing makes a person a better drain cleaner is craziness. I just found 5 homes last week, new homes, one house that had a family and 2 on each side of it that were not sold yet, and all five of the homes weren't connected to the city sewer. The tap for the city was there, the pipe going to the middle of the street was there, it just plain and simply wasn't hooked up. Now they have to dig up this brand new street, in five different spots, just to add, what, one foot of pipe to each. Would I trust that plumber within 100 feet of my cables or customers? Uhm, no. How about the one I found where the family just moved into an older home that was on a slab foundation, that just had the sewer line in the concrete replaced prior to them moving in, ran my cable and my camera and found out one joint in the middle of the living room had a j-cap on the end. Some plumber forgot to hook it up before the concrete was repoured. It was a 2 bath home and they had use of the other bathroom, but now they have to have the living room busted up again just to fix 6 inches of pipe. These are just two recently I have found, I've been in it since '97. There's more, and who was responsible for making sure these two plumbers were qualified and knowledgable?
I go for my license in a couple of months and I do figure if these two nitwits were able to pass it and make money, I should be just fine. But I'm a drain cleaner, and I'll always be a drain cleaner and this plumbing license will have very little to do with how well I clean a drain. I take great offense to being compared (directly or indirectly) to a handyman, carpenter or tile guy. Not because there is anything wrong with any of those three, that is their gig, their specialty, just as drain cleaning is mine. It's apples to oranges.
Bottom line, all cocked p-traps weren't done by drain cleaners. Some of us "un-qualified, un-knowledgable" drain cleaners still take pride in our work and won't leave a house if we think we're going to come back in a day or week for a related problem. There's good and bad in every profession but the way I've seen it, a plumbing license doesn't mean a person knows what he's doing just as no plumbing license doesn't mean a person doesn't know what he's doing. The license is just like a diploma from college, I did my time, I did what was needed, I studied with blood sweat and years and now I can charge for it.

If you're unclear where I was going with this, then you don't know Plumbing theory, and you couldn't possibly be going for you Master Plumbing license. Because to be honest with you..everyone who responded after me, understood exactly where I was going with this..except yourself.

Plus, you didn't comprehend what I clearly stated in what I wrote...instead you wanted to attack first, and ask questions later.

Guys who clean drains (who are NOT Licensed Plumbers) could put the trap back together with it being cocked.
You're correct on 1 thing..I've seen Plumbers do it as well..but the difference is..the know better, cause they should of learned that both in school, and on the job. There is a reason why Plumbers AND Drain Cleaning mechanics should be required by law to have a Plumbing license.

My response wasn't about drain cleaning..it was about Drain cleaning mechanics who should be licensed.

I hate to correct you again, cause it makes me sound like "I'm a know it all", and I'm by far that. BUT..Having a Master Plumbing license is not just a piece of paper like you just described. Having a Master Plumbing license let's the consumer know that you know Plumbing Theory...and when you get stuck on a fitting..or camming a line..you know what you're looking at or how to fix it.
You need Plumbing theory in order to do your job..and that's is a stone cold fact! So yes..a Master Plumbing license is very relevant in doing Drain cleaning. Having a Master Plumbing license means..you know the difference between a code violation(possibly the reason a sewer line is backing up)..and something that is done by code.

You can pay your dues the trade all you want..but there is a MAJOR difference between doing the job..and the theory behind it. That is why we are forced to have at least 4 years of schooling on top of 5 years in the field.
Another example..anyone can claim to know how to install a boiler..but how many have the theory behind it to service it?

Let me touch on something else you said. You right away wanted to attack Plumbers for making mistakes ..and I agree with you.

However..let's not confuse New Construction with Service work..2 different animals. Everyone knows new work is much simpler then Service work.
Where am I going with this? You get Plumbing companies who hire young kids out of school or tech school to do Plumbing. These guys are in the trade 6 months..and know absolutely nothing about the Plumbing trade. Their bosses are giving them trucks..and they are trading under 1 master Plumbing license.
I see the same violations as you do....but at the same time..90% of these kids are going to Plumbing school while they work.

You won't see too many young kids doing service work..they just don't have the knowledge to do it. You will mostly likely see guys with a little grey around the ears or..someone in their late 20's to early 30's.

I did both...and I also got a Big head when I did new work. I thought.."My god..Plumbing isn't that hard". I was right in one sense..New Construction is easy..when you're installing it new.
When we got out of new work many moons ago..I got knock right back down to earth...doing service work separates the men from the boys in this trade. You will find that everyone here will agree with that statement.

Bottom line is..and in most States..you need a Mater Plumbing license to clean drains..and there is a reason behind it...because of theory. If you didn't need a Master Plumbing license..the BIG Drain Machine companies wouldn't bother getting them.

Anyone can shove a snake down a drain line. It's the ones with Plumbing theory who know how to fix it, and correct the problem, and offer practical Plumbing solutions on how to fix it.

In so many words..with you saying a Plumbing License has nothing to do with drain cleaning..or how YOU clean a drain, and is no big deal...is a major slap in the face to every Master Plumber who had to read what you just said.

[Ozone89]

I agree that in aperfect world, people should know what they are doing!!
i have seen a lot of the same stuff that you talk about, but i am saying what goes on in this world that we live in, if you can rent a cable snake mach. any where in town. some can make money without carrying a master lic.
like i say i do check with the plumbing board where i work so i i know what they require to do drains, if you want to change this, change the laws in your state. JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

Jerry -

Man..we had a few Plumbing associations go to the State of Pennsylvania a few times. We tried very hard for years to have 1 code in this state ..and they finally listened..but with a very weak and easy Plumbing code (international). Pittsburgh and Philly fought the associations tooth and nail.

Our associations asked for a slew of things..and everything fell on deaf ears. IMO..we went about it all wrong..we shouldn't of asked..we should of sued from the get go. That is why I have a major problem with the PHCC...they want me to join..and they want my money..but for what? They coward and folded up when it came to going after the State of Pennsylvania...they did NOTHING to help it's members here.

It's a mess here in my area.

What's really worse is..we have area's in where you don't have to be a licensed Plumber to do work! What I want to know is..how do these townships get away with it, when the board of health and state says other wise? I was told that each township has to adopt that law.

If I was a Billionaire I would have this state,townships,inspectors..everyone locked up in court forever. I would do everything in my power to protect this trade in our state.

You guys in heavily coded areas with tough inspectors...be thankful..you guys don't have this mess we have here. My area is loaded with illegal Plumbers and jack of all trades doing Plumbing.

[westcoastplumber]

Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol


Very Well Said!! We have a huge problem with illegals and unlicensed handyman wanna be plumbers. What pisse* me off is that they will work for less then half what I will work for. Do a crap job and the customer dosen't care, as long as it was cheap.

I have been hearing some regrets from customers that have paid a handyman, tile guy's, home depot parking lot loiterers "so called plumbers" that they regret it.

I take alot of pride in what I do! I am very saddened to see where the trade is going. Scary, I am glad to have this forum, this place is for the tradesman that really care about the trade:D

I will close with a funny story, I was working in Manhattan Beach one day, I was repairing a leak and a guy came over from the neighbors, asking me in broken english to help him, I figured I would go and look at what he was doing, His help and himself were trying to install a shower valve with seperate diverter, (I don't speak spanish) so I couldn't communicate with him, I looked at the project, shook my head and walked out..........they had electrical tape on the MIP's in the shower valve........

I didn't bother telling them....does that make me a bad person:confused::D:D:D

[Gene Bickford]

Being a drain cleaner I have to agree with Draintech1 but I also see your point ozone, but I do think having to obtain a plumbing license to do drain cleaning is a bit excessive. I would agree though that some type of certification or drain cleaning license should be required.
In Maine, even without a plumbing license I can do service work (i don't unless for friends/family). I can legally repair/replace any plumbing but I,m not allowed to make any changes even if it's not to code. So in theory I can legally take all the plumbing out of a home as long as I replace it the same way. It's pretty scary that any Joe schmo can do this. I have a fair understanding of plumbing but not alot of knowledge of code/techniques. Even with as much I THINK I KNOW, I don't think I'm qualified to do service work beyond the basics.
I have more to add but for now I'm off to the beach:cool:

[mrs. westcoast]

draintech 1, you bring up a good point.

this is a thread i started a while back. interesting reading and comments.

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=680&highlight=underqualified

a license means that you passed a test in business laws and trade knowledge. it doesn't mean you actually conduct your business in a legal and ethical fashion.

having a contractors license is not necessarily a guarantee the work you're doing is correct or legal. every few months the state of california releases a new list of contractors that their licenses were revoked. a license is suppose to protect the consumer, in most ways it does, it just takes time for the contractors board to catch up with you.

hiring a qualified plumber or drain cleaner is the key issue. the consumer has to do their homework too.

rick.

Exactly Rick,

This is the first one i agree with you.

That's why i'm seriously thinking to call cslb and offer them place to stay while they are catching not licensed peope:D:D

I'm not mean but i want more jobs for robert:D:D No,just kidding.but seriously,it is making me mad when people who love their trade are being run down by people who don't give a damn about nothing or a customer but just money.

ON phcc show we talked to cslb and they said the reason why they are not so much here in los angeles is beacuse they dont have places to stay while they are doing the operation.

They said if we ever wwant to offer them a place to stay while their doing it that would be great..

And i might will..

On the other hand americans are the one that are giving them jobs. They want everything for a cheap price and that's why they hire unlicense person.

[mrs. westcoast]

let me guess, this was in vegas:confused:

the old saying of what goes on in vegas, stays in vegas is not always true:rolleyes:

where you in vegas again? don't you vacation anywhere else:confused:

glad you're back:) thought that dog has gotten you and adam:D

who left robert in charge:eek::D:confused:

rick.

Mark left Robert in charge. Na-na-bo-bo!!

Any complaints about him you wanna share with me? I can take you down Rick:D

[Ozone89]

Being a drain cleaner I have to agree with Draintech1 but I also see your point ozone, but I do think having to obtain a plumbing license to do drain cleaning is a bit excessive. I would agree though that some type of certification or drain cleaning license should be required.
In Maine, even without a plumbing license I can do service work (i don't unless for friends/family). I can legally repair/replace any plumbing but I,m not allowed to make any changes even if it's not to code. So in theory I can legally take all the plumbing out of a home as long as I replace it the same way. It's pretty scary that any Joe schmo can do this. I have a fair understanding of plumbing but not alot of knowledge of code/techniques. Even with as much I THINK I KNOW, I don't think I'm qualified to do service work beyond the basics.
I have more to add but for now I'm off to the beach:cool:

Gene -
I'm quickly finding out here..it's a matter of where you live, and how the Plumbing code is interpreted and state laws.

If we hire out to be a Plumber in all 50 states..the law says we have to be licensed. Drain Techs or any other profession should NOT be excluded from this law, because you are touching something Plumbing related. If we are forced to have a license..so should everyone else.

Having a Plumbing license means you understand Plumbing theory,code's, and laws.

You may think is excessive to have a license for Drain cleaning, but there are code violations that can cause a drain to be slow or not function properly. A person would only know that, by going to school and learning Plumbing theory.

Drain cleaners also do Plumbing related things..as any Plumber would do. If you break a trap under a sink..you are not going to call a Plumber out to fix it, you're going to fix it yourself.
People fail to realize that Plumber's protect the health of the nation against disease. Drain related issues such as broken traps being installed back properly fall into this category. I guarantee you it's in every Plumbing code book across the Nation.

Just like if you break a sewer line with your cable, and have to replace that section. You have to have the proper pitch, cause you can't have the liquids passing the solids.

Knowing theory also teaches you when a line is over sized or undersized. If something is over-sized, you are not washing the walls down inside the pipe...if it's undersized, it's taking too long to drain.

All of this falls into stuff that Drain mechanics come across...and that's why they should be required by law to have a License.

How you could agree with Drain tech boggles my mind...I'm sorry.

Step back for a second..and put yourself in a Plumber's shoes...you would agree.

[ToUtahNow]

Typically drain cleaning companies are maintenance companies and do not have to be licensed plumbers in many jurisdictions. However, they are also very limited in what they are permitted to do as it is assumed their knowledge is also limited. Most of the jurisdictions I work with put a monetary limit on the value of any work done by a non-licensed Contractor. That limit is cumulative so it cuts out most repeat business. For example if the limit for a non-licensed Contractor in a jurisdiction is $500 that is the maximum you can charge a single customer in your lifetime.

While drain cleaning companies do not need to be licensed plumbers I believe it would be prudent for the owner of any drain cleaning business to be licensed. That does not take away from the ability of the non-licensed drain cleaner it simple increases their ability to earn money as a drain cleaner.

Mark

[TomSV650]

I wish more plumbers cared about what they do like ozone89 does. I've had countless jobs where a plumber would try to run a mainline with his "one size fits all" type of snake. I then goto his job with seweage backed into the bathtub and toilet. Oviously this is anything but sanitary.

TomSV650whoislicenced!

[PLUMBER RICK]

[quote=mrs. westcoast;88211]Exactly Rick,

This is the first one i agree with you.


[quote]

zeljka, 2532+ posts and this is the first one you agree with me on:eek:

i hope i can do better than that:confused:

i think robert might be at 2 posts with me. that makes robert agree with me 50% more than you agree with me:D i guess if i look at it this way, it's not too bad:rolleyes:

i'll try harder and maybe ease up your standards a little bit.

i like charlie:D how's that? #2:)

rick.

[Ozone89]

Typically drain cleaning companies are maintenance companies and do not have to be licensed plumbers in many jurisdictions. However, they are also very limited in what they are permitted to do as it is assumed their knowledge is also limited. Most of the jurisdictions I work with put a monetary limit on the value of any work done by a non-licensed Contractor. That limit is cumulative so it cuts out most repeat business. For example if the limit for a non-licensed Contractor in a jurisdiction is $500 that is the maximum you can charge a single customer in your lifetime.

While drain cleaning companies do not need to be licensed plumbers I believe it would be prudent for the owner of any drain cleaning business to be licensed. That does not take away from the ability of the non-licensed drain cleaner it simple increases their ability to earn money as a drain cleaner.

Mark

Mark - For me personally..I'll just never be able to grasp this whole concept. Each State has it's own Plumbing code it wants everyone to follow, but the State themselves pick a choose which laws they want to follow.
IMO..you can't have it both ways, cause the State is setting 2 different sets of rules, and to be honest I classify that as discrimination.

If taken to task, I'd be willing to bet the State would lose in a court of law. Obviously it would have to go to the Supreme Court.

I just don't think it's fair that Drain cleaning companies get excluded in certain area's around the country. If I was a Master Plumber in these area's..I'd be pretty ticked off.

By all means I don't want to make it sound like I'm attacking drain cleaning companies. But I wasn't really aware that many drain cleaning companies weren't licensed. I always assumed someone in that company had a Licensed Plumber..and their employees were working under that license.

Mark..I agree with you though..drain companies should want to be licensed.

[Ozone89]

I wish more plumbers cared about what they do like ozone89 does. I've had countless jobs where a plumber would try to run a mainline with his "one size fits all" type of snake. I then goto his job with seweage backed into the bathtub and toilet. Obviously this is anything but sanitary.

TomSV650whoislicenced!

Tom -

I care now, cause my business future and other legit Plumbers futures are in serious jeopardy, if we don't get a handle on this. The State of Pennsylvania doesn't care about Plumbing or Plumbers.

The State of Pennsylvania should look right next door to New Jersey..they know how to follow codes and laws. It was always said to me, that New Jersey is one of the toughest state's to get a Master Plumbing license.

[ccouch]

What I do not understand is how drain companies think they do not have to be licensed. THe IPC states that you cannot move, alter, change, repair etc.. any plumbing. This means you cannot pull a toilet, cut out a section of pipe, offer to replace a sewer line or install anything. Why would any person not want to get a license and complete their company. I really hope you guys who operate with no license tell your customers up front that you lack this achievement. Take pride in yourself and in your work and get qaulified.

[ccouch]

The plumbing industy in generl is in trouble. I know here in GA that the aaverage age of a master plumber is 58. We are having problems finding descent help and there are few guys etiing into the trade. IS it this way in the northern states?

[Gene Bickford]

"Take pride in yourself and in your work and get qualified".
I take GREAT offense to this statement. Are you implying that because I don't have papers I don't have any pride in myself and my work? If so you are sadly mistaken.
A piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper. It has nothing at all to do with my pride or the quality of my work.

And to those that feel ONLY a licensed plumber should ever touch a pipe:
Do you also feel that a nurse should also have the same papers as a DR because they share some of the same duties? Do you feel a lawyer should have the same qualification's of a judge in order to practice law?
Do you call the roofer and have them cut the roof before you install a vent?
Do you call the concrete contractor and have them jack hammer and replace the cement when replacing a pipe in a basement? etc. etc. etc...

[ccouch]

"Take pride in yourself and in your work and get qualified".
I take GREAT offense to this statement. Are you implying that because I don't have papers I don't have any pride in myself and my work? If so you are sadly mistaken.
A piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper. It has nothing at all to do with my pride or the quality of my work.

And to those that feel ONLY a licensed plumber should ever touch a pipe:
Do you also feel that a nurse should also have the same papers as a DR because they share some of the same duties? Do you feel a lawyer should have the same qualification's of a judge in order to practice law?
Do you call the roofer and have them cut the roof before you install a vent?
Do you call the concrete contractor and have them jack hammer and replace the cement when replacing a pipe in a basement? etc. etc. etc...

Do you also feel that a nurse should also have the same papers as a DR because they share some of the same duties?

They do not need the same papers. In our business; they would be considered Journeyman.

Do you call the concrete contractor and have them jack hammer and replace the cement when replacing a pipe in a basement?

Yes we do. You know why? Liability.

That is what it comes down to with you operating without a license. You are human. You will mess up in due time. Some lawyer will figure out that you are not licensed and nail you to a tree. You liability insurance will not cover either once they start looking for a reason not to pay.

You may be the nicest and best plumber in the USA. But you still need to be qaulified. Would you let an unliscensed doctor perform surgery on you?

[gear junkie]

What's the difference between being unliscenced with lots of experience and being unexperienced and working under someone elses master license? I'm not licensed and have 9 years of experience. I can't get licensed because PSI exams won't accept my Navy time. Am I any less qualified? We have a master plumber we work under, not directly with. I've seen guys get hired with 2 or 3 years of experience work solo. What's to keep them from messing up. But they're legal.

If you're talking about being a sole propriter and being unliscenced then that's different and I fully agree with you. But being liscenced does not represent actual knowledge or quality 100% of the time.

[draintech1]

Ozone, I think it's best if we just agree to disagree. Your response was like swiss cheese and I could seriously take it apart sentence by sentence. If you have to be a master plumber to clean drains where you are then so be it. It's unneeded but so are alot of things. I've cleaned drains all over several states and you didn't have to be a master plumber to do it.
Secondly, if you think for one second that I was implying that a plumbing license was just a piece of paper, you've got it pegged all wrong. What I said was the license was like a college diploma, <the word stating is understood by the comma after the word diploma>, I did my time, I did what was needed, I studied with blood sweat and years and now I can charge for it. Funny that's what all my friends said when the gadgeyated koluj while they were hanging their diploma on the wall in a frame. And please don't give me the bullsh** about becuz you're a master plumber you know how to fix things right. You know how to service boilers because of your theories, that's great, but we're talking about drain cleaning and workmanship here. I don't go into peoples houses trying to find their boilers so I can work on them, I go in to clean their drains.
Thirdly, I wasn't attacking plumbers for making mistakes. We're all human and make mistakes. I was talking about, what did you call them, "legit, qualified, knowlegdable" licensed individuals that made assinine mistakes. I wasn't solely talking about new construction plumbers either, hence why I put the example of the couple that moved into an older home. Read it again ozone. That was a service plumber that left the j-cap on and I know he was older than new construction plumbers because I've met him. Him also being a master plumber. I also have a friend that's a licensed plumber, NATE certified and teaches classes in hydronics at the local college. He's only 23 years old. Smart as all get out, but still swears to this day that he stopped up a sewer line with cereal and rice from his garbage disposal, not his kitchen line, his 4 inch terra cotta clay sewer line. :confused::confused: What?
Fourthly, (only 17 more to go), are you kidding me with this whole master plumbers know how to offer practical plumbing solutions on how to fix a stopped up drain? I've got a couple of ideas. STOP stuffing your diposal full before turning it on, turn on some water when running your disposal, go on a diet, you got some bad root problems--you should have this line cabled once a year if you're not going to replace it, don't pour candle wax down your kitchen sink, cell phones and deoderant sticks don't make it thru the toilet.....the list can go on and on. Hey if a code violation is the reason why the sewer line is backing up and you had to be a licensed plumber to install the sewer line, what does that say about the workmanship of licensed qualified blah blah blah individuals?
Fifthly, no, not all now. I shall return with rest of it. After all this it seems like I'm the one that needs the drink. Just keep in mind what I said in my response, there is good and bad in every profession, some that do care, some that don't, and this is in no way an arguement about should a person pursue a license. It's about workmanship and why only state board members would think of something like drain cleaners having to have a master plumbers license to clean drains.

[plumberscrack]

I have nothing to add here but after 6 pages of threads it's finally getting interesting:D

[TomSV650]

Tom -

I care now, cause my business future and other legit Plumbers futures are in serious jeopardy, if we don't get a handle on this. The State of Pennsylvania doesn't care about Plumbing or Plumbers.

The State of Pennsylvania should look right next door to New Jersey..they know how to follow codes and laws. It was always said to me, that New Jersey is one of the toughest state's to get a Master Plumbing license.

I don't agree AT ALL that a drain guys needs to be licensed. I've been doing drain cleaning(with out a license) for over twenty years. I'll put my technical know how and experience against anybody on this board when it comes to drain cleaning. But when it comes to plumbing, there's no way i'll compare myself to most of the full on plumbers on this board. Two totally separate trades.

If your serious about drain cleaning, you really need a truck full of equipment. The plumbers I know usually only have a couple of small snakes and what they do is try to clean a bigger line than what there snake is capable of, and the line ends up stopping up a couple of days later and they end up calling me out. I have seen this countless times. Of course nobody does that on this board. :)

Plumbers will also say that a certain pipe should be replaced. That may be technical right, but just because a mainline has roots in it, or a kitchen sink line is full of sludge, it may only need to be cleaned out once a year which will save the owner alot of money.

I've always believed that a customer is better off calling a "drain" only company than a full on plumber. I have a couple of very large property management companies who believe this also.

[gear junkie]

Draintech, don't stop now. You got me on the edge of my seat. This is almost as good as a flate rate debate.

[gear junkie]

Where's Mark in all of this? We need his opinion!!

[Gene Bickford]

"That is what it comes down to with you operating without a license. You are human. You will mess up in due time. Some lawyer will figure out that you are not licensed and nail you to a tree. You liability insurance will not cover either once they start looking for a reason not to pay".

This is what it comes down to with you operating WITH a license. You too are human. You too will mess up in due time. Some lawyer will figure out that you went to school for 4 yrs and should know better. Your insurance will start looking for a reason not to pay.

"You may be the nicest and best plumber in the USA".
I am NOT a plumber nor have I ever claimed to be one.

[stxrus]

"That is what it comes down to with you operating without a license. You are human. You will mess up in due time. Some lawyer will figure out that you are not licensed and nail you to a tree. You liability insurance will not cover either once they start looking for a reason not to pay".

This is what it comes down to with you operating WITH a license. You too are human. You too will mess up in due time. Some lawyer will figure out that you went to school for 4 yrs and should know better. Your insurance will start looking for a reason not to pay.

"You may be the nicest and best plumber in the USA".
I am NOT a plumber nor have I ever claimed to be one.

AMEN BROTHER!! this whole mess has become as boring as T&M vs FL.

where i live, in the U.S. Virgin Islands , we have a ton of plumbers that do not want to do drain cleaning. they, at best, have a closet auger or a ribbon eel to "CLEAN" a blocked line. 99.999999999% of the time they fail. OMG a licensed MASTER PLUMBER has ****ed up!! they will call me, because i show up, do the job, do the job correctly, and am the hero whereas the licensed MASTER PLUMBER is left looking like a jackass. I ONLY DO DRAIN CLEANING!! I HAVE THE PROPER TOOLS. I HAVE THE PROPER ATTITUDE, AND I DO A GOOD JOB.

i went to a job this morning (8:30 AM) to a low income area. their blockage was cleared in 15 minutes. they have a problem with the toilet running and the shower does a lot more than just "drip" YES, i could have fixed both issues, but i referred them to a qualified LICENSED plumber that would not charge them more than thaey could afford. every one was happy at the end and i left knowing that my job was good and they could get some help they needed and COULD afford it.

if by some twist of fate i HAD to become a licensed plumber to continue my current gig, i'd toss my $20,000.00 + worth of gear and go back to playing music for a living. i'd still be dealing with ****, but as a musician i can understand the game.

there are 3 people i respect on this board. to you (and i'm sure you know who you are) i tip my hat. thanks for your input and if i really need a question answered i'll either PM or e-mail you

you want to talk about LICENSING??let's discuss the USGC "captains" ticket.

later

steve

[PLUMBER RICK]

now my turn:D

starting off in 1975 at age 12 with my uncle as a helper, a full time union apprentice at age 18 in 1981, a licensed journeyman plumber since 1984 and a licensed plumbing contractor since 1997. i will give you my opinion to both sides of the debate. i too did plumbing and drain cleaning while i was unlicensed and uninsured. but now i understand both sides of the debate, having been there too;)

there are plenty of licensed and unlicensed people doing plumbing that shouldn't be doing plumbing, period. the same goes true with that there are plenty of unlicensed people doing plumbing and drain cleaning that do a better job than their licensed counterpart.

it all comes down to how well the person was trained, not just putting it in, but understanding why it's done that way. theory is very important for understanding right from wrong.

a monkey can assemble the same thing over and over again. it doesn't mean the monkey knows why it's done that way, it just knows that's the way it was told to be done.

a licensed plumber is suppose to know right from wrong and why it is that way:confused:

a person who only does drain cleaning might be the best drain cleaner out there. but has no understanding of what's behind the wall and under the ground.

having worked new construction for 15 years, there were plenty of qualified union plumbers i worked with, that didn't have a clue on setting finish or service work. and they wouldn't get caught dead doing drain cleaning:eek:

just like most doctors tend to specialize in a certain field of medicine, there are plumbers and drain people that specialize in a particular field of plumbing. whether it's new work, repair work, drain cleaning.

stick with what you know. let the pros do what they know. don't think or try to do everything just because you have a license. and just because you do drain cleaning doesn't give you the right to replace sewers, water heaters, water mains, service and repair.

with a license, also comes responsibility. not only do you have to answer to the person who hired you, but also to the administrative authority and state contractors board.

without a license, you still have to answer to the person who hires you, but typically not to anyone else, unless you step out of your boundaries of work.

for all the licensed and non licensed plumbers and drain cleaners here. do you all carry liability insurance, workers comp insurance?

do you take on jobs just for the money? can you get inspection on your work? is it legal for you to be doing this type of work?

if you are doing things by the book, then you have nothing to worry about. if you are breaking the laws, it will eventually catch up with you. unfortunately at the homeowners expense too.

typically being licensed also carries the proper insurance to cover yourself and the job site.

the unlicensed person might not carry the proper insurance to cover their potential liability. we all know about being hit by an uninsured motorist.

in closing, i don't feel that a license makes a person fully qualified.
i also feel that an unlicensed person should be able to do work that falls within the legal limits set by the local or state authorities.

i do feel that all, need to carry the proper insurance to protect themselves and the people they are hired by.

it's not all about the money, it's about doing the job properly with the safety of all in mind;)

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Okay guys I think you are all missing the fact we all live under and work under different jurisdictions. While both the UPC and the IPC require all plumbing contractors to be licensed most of the jurisdictions I work under have “Handyman Exemptions”. California’s exemption is $500 while Hawaii’s is $1,000. Arizona’s is at $500 only because they just recently voted down an attempt to change it to $2,000. The above means in the jurisdictions mentioned you do not need to have anything more than a business license regardless of what the Plumbing Code says.

I believe “Handyman Exemptions” are a bad thing but not because licensed plumbers are losing work it is because the licensing requirements in the Codes are meant to protect the consumer. However, this does not mean a drain cleaner is not qualified to clean drains. It is likely some drain cleaners are better at cleaning drains then some licensed plumbers are. Of course if a drain cleaner attempted to rough-in a house I would consider him over his head as related to his qualifications.

Now let’s get a little more complicated. Gene lives in Pittsfield Maine. If my recent research is correct Maine does not even have a statewide plumbing code. It appears every municipality decides what they want to use as a plumbing code. It does however appear Maine recently adopted the 2003 IRC which includes residential plumbing (minimal) within the code.

Now to top it off it looks like Maine does not have a statewide licensing program for contractors. This seems very unusually to me but I did find legislation where they are suppose to have a Contractors Board up and running by January 2008. So if the State does not have a licensing program for contractors can you really have unlicensed contractors? Now Gene may have to help me out with who does what in his State but I could not find anything to indicated the State licenses contractors yet.

Mark

[BAPlumber]

About the time I left the Seattle area there were a couple of the sewer districts and cities that were considering requiring permits for sewer cleaning. They may be requiring that now. At the time it wouldn't have required anything more than a trainee or apprentice card.

I do know that the City of Bellevue required that they were called before any sewer line was snaked. even after hours we'd call 911 and the dispatcher would forward the message. during business hours someone from the city sewer dept. would almost always show up to see what was going on. After hours, even at 2 am the on call guy would call me back. they were very protective of their sewers since they have quite a few pressurized mains in the lakes and don't want them punctured. if you didn't call them first or even lifted a man hole lid and were caught you risked going to jail.

I might be in favor of a permit for drain cleaning. there doesn't need to be a journeyman requirement just a contractor's license and an inspection.

[Ozone89]

Okay guys I think you are all missing the fact we all live under and work under different jurisdictions. While both the UPC and the IPC require all plumbing contractors to be licensed most of the jurisdictions I work under have “Handyman Exemptions”. California’s exemption is $500 while Hawaii’s is $1,000. Arizona’s is at $500 only because they just recently voted down an attempt to change it to $2,000. The above means in the jurisdictions mentioned you do not need to have anything more than a business license regardless of what the Plumbing Code says.

I believe “Handyman Exemptions” are a bad thing but not because licensed plumbers are losing work it is because the licensing requirements in the Codes are meant to protect the consumer. However, this does not mean a drain cleaner is not qualified to clean drains. It is likely some drain cleaners are better at cleaning drains then some licensed plumbers are. Of course if a drain cleaner attempted to rough-in a house I would consider him over his head as related to his qualifications.

Now let’s get a little more complicated. Gene lives in Pittsfield Maine. If my recent research is correct Maine does not even have a statewide plumbing code. It appears every municipality decides what they want to use as a plumbing code. It does however appear Maine recently adopted the 2003 IRC which includes residential plumbing (minimal) within the code.

Now to top it off it looks like Maine does not have a statewide licensing program for contractors. This seems very unusually to me but I did find legislation where they are suppose to have a Contractors Board up and running by January 2008. So if the State does not have a licensing program for contractors can you really have unlicensed contractors? Now Gene may have to help me out with who does what in his State but I could not find anything to indicated the State licenses contractors yet.

Mark

I think I agree to disagree with what you said. There should be no exceptions because that's not what's stated in a code book. The state's shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. Handymen shouldn't be allowed to touch Plumbing period!
The State shouldn't be allowed to override what the Health Department says either...there is a reason why we have a health department and there is a reason why we have Plumbing codes.

By law..anyone who hires out for any type of Plumbing, should be required by law to be licensed! It's stated as so in any code book you follow.

I also disagree with.."it doesn't mean a Drain mechanic isn't qualified to clean drains." The reason being..is what i stated in earlier posts. How is a Drain cleaning mechanic who's been on the job for 1 year supposed to know about proper sizing of a waste line? How is he supposed to know if the line he is snaking is not properly vented? All this ties into his job and how to correct the problem.

In my eyes..and many others..he's not qualified.

The State shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose which laws to follow in the Plumbing code.

[PLUMBER RICK]

you're never going to stop a handyman or homeowner from doing drain cleaning or plumbing.

every home improvement store, home depot, lowes, caters to them.

have you seen the rental department at these stores? when they first started to appear at my local h.d. i was thinking how long will it be, before someone unqualified got killed using a rented machine they had no clue on how to properly use.

if you think about all the water heaters that are sold, what percentage are actually installed with permits and inspected. my guess is less than 5%.

how about having to register a heater at time of purchase so that the city can follow up on the installation and inspection:confused:

i know it's getting off track, but it's not just drain cleaning that they are doing.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

I think I agree to disagree with what you said. There should be no exceptions because that's not what's stated in a code book. The state's shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. Handymen shouldn't be allowed to touch Plumbing period!
The State shouldn't be allowed to override what the Health Department says either...there is a reason why we have a health department and there is a reason why we have Plumbing codes.

By law..anyone who hires out for any type of Plumbing, should be required by law to be licensed! It's stated as so in any code book you follow.

I also disagree with.."it doesn't mean a Drain mechanic isn't qualified to clean drains." The reason being..is what i stated in earlier posts. How is a Drain cleaning mechanic who's been on the job for 1 year supposed to know about proper sizing of a waste line? How is he supposed to know if the line he is snaking is not properly vented? All this ties into his job and how to correct the problem.

In my eyes..and many others..he's not qualified.

The State shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose which laws to follow in the Plumbing code.

Remember it is the municipalities which adopt the code not the code which adopts the municipality. Every jurisdiction I know of makes amendments to the codes which can include deletions or additions of complete sections. If a code authority refused to let a municipality use their code amended that code would go unused.

The job of a drain cleaner is not to diagnosis or repair the problem with the drain it is simply to clean it. The responsible thing to do when and if he suspects a problem is to refer the customer to a plumber.

Mark

[Drain Medic]

"The job of a drain cleaner is not to diagnosis or repair the problem with the drain it is simple to clean it. The responsible thing to do when and if he suspects a problem is to refer the customer to a plumber".




Exactly, 80% of the time, the customer either has their own plumber, and their plumber told them to call a drain cleaner, your their for the plumber. If sometimes is broken, you locate it, and give the work back to the plumber that referred you to the job. If it is a 1st time customer, who doesnt have a regular plumber, recommend one to them...I use to do that all the time. Alot of times the plumber will be on site with you...you locate it for them, mark it, they get the dig, plus a couple extra dollars for you being there....Plumbers love it. They dont have to do the dirty work....If there is a tech who only has a year in, and he is working by himself, or owns his own company, then yes, knowledge is a key..but if your a tech working with a company, and you dont have the training to do a certain job, then you shouldnt be doing it, or on a job that they cant tell where the problem is , or what the problem is, or if it is a venting problem, that company should have supervisors available to come out with them, or at LEAST extra help.... Ive trainned people for yrs...You will never know everything there is to know about drain cleaning..or plumbing for that matter....What if a plumber who is an apprentice and only has 1yr in , and tells a customer that they have a venting problem, or that there pipes arent the right size for the house, charges XXX amount of dollars to replace the vent, or the pipes, and here there was a clog at the vent on the roof with leaves, that couldve been snaked, or that kitchen sink pipe was the right size, just loading with grease, the drain cleaner, after diagnosing wouldve saved them a ton of money by cleaning the lines...This is an endless debate peeps. Ive been cleaning drains for along time, ill take a drain cleaning company over a plumbing company any day to clear my drains, licesned or not...


Greg

[All Clear Sewer]

"The job of a drain cleaner is not to diagnosis or repair the problem with the drain it is simple to clean it. The responsible thing to do when and if he suspects a problem is to refer the customer to a plumber".


Thats why I`m glad to have a master plumber working with me :D I get to make some money too :D

[Ozone89]

"The job of a drain cleaner is not to diagnosis or repair the problem with the drain it is simple to clean it. The responsible thing to do when and if he suspects a problem is to refer the customer to a plumber".




Exactly, 80% of the time, the customer either has their own plumber, and their plumber told them to call a drain cleaner, your their for the plumber. If sometimes is broken, you locate it, and give the work back to the plumber that referred you to the job. If it is a 1st time customer, who doesnt have a regular plumber, recommend one to them...I use to do that all the time. Alot of times the plumber will be on site with you...you locate it for them, mark it, they get the dig, plus a couple extra dollars for you being there....Plumbers love it. They dont have to do the dirty work....If there is a tech who only has a year in, and he is working by himself, or owns his own company, then yes, knowledge is a key..but if your a tech working with a company, and you dont have the training to do a certain job, then you shouldnt be doing it, or on a job that they cant tell where the problem is , or what the problem is, or if it is a venting problem, that company should have supervisors available to come out with them, or at LEAST extra help.... Ive trainned people for yrs...You will never know everything there is to know about drain cleaning..or plumbing for that matter....What if a plumber who is an apprentice and only has 1yr in , and tells a customer that they have a venting problem, or that there pipes arent the right size for the house, charges XXX amount of dollars to replace the vent, or the pipes, and here there was a clog at the vent on the roof with leaves, that couldve been snaked, or that kitchen sink pipe was the right size, just loading with grease, the drain cleaner, after diagnosing wouldve saved them a ton of money by cleaning the lines...This is an endless debate peeps. Ive been cleaning drains for along time, ill take a drain cleaning company over a plumbing company any day to clear my drains, licesned or not...


Greg
It's now an endless debate because I laid down some facts, and it struck a nerve with a few people on the board. Just because some jurisdictions around the country don't force their own laws, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them.

Drain medic..are you a Master Plumber?

[Ozone89]

you're never going to stop a handyman or homeowner from doing drain cleaning or plumbing.

every home improvement store, home depot, lowes, caters to them.

have you seen the rental department at these stores? when they first started to appear at my local h.d. i was thinking how long will it be, before someone unqualified got killed using a rented machine they had no clue on how to properly use.

if you think about all the water heaters that are sold, what percentage are actually installed with permits and inspected. my guess is less than 5%.

how about having to register a heater at time of purchase so that the city can follow up on the installation and inspection:confused:

i know it's getting off track, but it's not just drain cleaning that they are doing.

rick.

Home owner's by law are allowed to do their own work to their own home..that's not an issue.

[BAPlumber]

I think I agree to disagree with what you said. There should be no exceptions because that's not what's stated in a code book. The state's shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. Handymen shouldn't be allowed to touch Plumbing period!
The State shouldn't be allowed to override what the Health Department says either...there is a reason why we have a health department and there is a reason why we have Plumbing codes. ...

The State shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose which laws to follow in the Plumbing code.

sounds like your advocating a national plumbing code, and all the federal bureaucracy that will create.

The States do have the right to pick and choose their laws, they choose the plumbing code and amend it to their own individual needs. If the states are not allowed to choose their laws, who should? It certainly is none of the Federal government's business how each state chooses to install plumbing, given the differances in conditions in each state for one.

[ToUtahNow]

Just because some jurisdictions around the country don't force their own laws, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them.

Perhaps you can offer some examples of where this is happening?

Mark

[draintech1]

Oh please, ozone, the only facts you laid down were you've seen licensed plumbers put in cocked p-traps, and you're in pennsylvania. The rest has been how YOU think things should be. You are entitled to your own opinion, I don't have to agree with it just like you don't have to agree with my opinion. You think drain cleaners are just a bunch of dopey guys that want to be plumbers someday but just don't have what it takes to rise to your level. You also think drain cleaning is something you offer because you are a master plumber and you've learned the theory s^*t flows downhill. What struck the nerve was you comparing me (a drain cleaner that does it day in and day out, that's been taught by the best, has lived on call, worked in thunderstorms, snow, hot, cold, on holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, missed baseball games & recitals,worked in septic tanks, leach fields, seepage pits, manholes, under houses, on roofs, in the mud, in s*^t, grease, vomit, dog kennels, chicken plants, meat processing plants, stuck for hours, things really went my way, and so much more) to someone that does it here and there, occassionally, maybe a little more than occassionally, like handymen, carpenters, tile guys, then you say I need to have masters plumbing license to clean drains or I'm not legit! I beg to differ. I might not be legit as a licensed plumber in which I have never claimed to be, but I've been thru the ringer and still walked away in tact. I'll leave the master plumbers license to those that enjoy the plumbing end of it. Hey, wait a minute, is it all bright and sunny days in a perfect world like the Walgreens commercials when you get a master plumber license? Cuz if so, where do I sign--never mind. I love cleaning drains and even though the conditions never seem right, there's nothing better (to me-dopey drain cleaner) than doing it for a living. I guess next you'll want the people that detail your car to be ASE certified, I mean they are working in and on your car, shouldn't they be qualified and knowledgable about your safety in driving the car when they clean it?

[plumb34]

I am in the south and have had my own drain cleaning/plumbing/septic business since 1996...I started out cleaning drains at age 12 with a family member...Everyone seems to want to compete about a license on drain cleaning...I am a master plumber/gas also have to have seperate certification for installing septic systems and aerobc systems which I also hold...but each of these fields should go hand in hand the more we qualify ourselves to do the more effecient our trademanship becomes....I do new construction as well as repair,residential,commercial and industrial...I prefer gorlitz 68hd drain cleaning machine with 3/4 cable for main lines with powerfeeder for those just getting started might want just 68 model with 11/16 cable....also gorlitz 350/250 combo with two seperate reels 1=3/8 cable for sink lines and washer drains and 2 = 1/2 for floor drains . I use these machines because i have tried every machine on market and they are quiet and very durable...it takes a good drain cleaner to clean a line installed not up to code or backward tee's or wye's and this does happen but it takes a good plumber to make it easy for future cleanings....in my area we have strict codes in city but none outside city limits...thats why you have to be careful for jacklegs acting like they are plumbers and robbing customers and leaving them worse than the initial problem...then they call you so you need to have the experience to handle bad situations and make them good for your customers treat them as if it were you or a loved one and you will go far in business good luck......also don't be afraid to say no......don't get yourself spread to thin or take on what you can't handle

[Ozone89]

Oh please, ozone, the only facts you laid down were you've seen licensed plumbers put in cocked p-traps, and you're in pennsylvania. The rest has been how YOU think things should be. You are entitled to your own opinion, I don't have to agree with it just like you don't have to agree with my opinion. You think drain cleaners are just a bunch of dopey guys that want to be plumbers someday but just don't have what it takes to rise to your level. You also think drain cleaning is something you offer because you are a master plumber and you've learned the theory s^*t flows downhill. What struck the nerve was you comparing me (a drain cleaner that does it day in and day out, that's been taught by the best, has lived on call, worked in thunderstorms, snow, hot, cold, on holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, missed baseball games & recitals,worked in septic tanks, leach fields, seepage pits, manholes, under houses, on roofs, in the mud, in s*^t, grease, vomit, dog kennels, chicken plants, meat processing plants, stuck for hours, things really went my way, and so much more) to someone that does it here and there, occassionally, maybe a little more than occassionally, like handymen, carpenters, tile guys, then you say I need to have masters plumbing license to clean drains or I'm not legit! I beg to differ. I might not be legit as a licensed plumber in which I have never claimed to be, but I've been thru the ringer and still walked away in tact. I'll leave the master plumbers license to those that enjoy the plumbing end of it. Hey, wait a minute, is it all bright and sunny days in a perfect world like the Walgreens commercials when you get a master plumber license? Cuz if so, where do I sign--never mind. I love cleaning drains and even though the conditions never seem right, there's nothing better (to me-dopey drain cleaner) than doing it for a living. I guess next you'll want the people that detail your car to be ASE certified, I mean they are working in and on your car, shouldn't they be qualified and knowledgable about your safety in driving the car when they clean it?

Did you puff your chest out when you typed that?

If you ever picked up a code book in your life, you would know what I'm talking about. Your state/jurisdictions obviously amend their own laws to govern.

Area's in the State of Pennsylvania require you to be a licensed Plumber to even touch a lowly P-trap or pick up a water closet. There is a reason why the Big Drain Cleaning companies are licensed Plumbers in the State of Pennsylvania.

It's obvious to me, we have 1 member here who is breaking the law in his own state.

It it wise to watch what one says, cause you never know when an inspector,health official,township official is watching. (hint hint)

[All Clear Sewer]

If your serious about drain cleaning, you really need a truck full of equipment. The plumbers I know usually only have a couple of small snakes and what they do is try to clean a bigger line than what there snake is capable of, and the line ends up stopping up a couple of days later and they end up calling me out. I have seen this countless times. Of course nobody does that on this board. :)

Plumbers will also say that a certain pipe should be replaced. That may be technical right, but just because a mainline has roots in it, or a kitchen sink line is full of sludge, it may only need to be cleaned out once a year which will save the owner alot of money.

I've always believed that a customer is better off calling a "drain" only company than a full on plumber. I have a couple of very large property management companies who believe this also.

AMEN BROTHER
I`m with ya on this one ;)

[All Clear Sewer]

I guess next you'll want the people that detail your car to be ASE certified, I mean they are working in and on your car, shouldn't they be qualified and knowledgable about your safety in driving the car when they clean it?
Funny you say that as I also own a Detail/Body Shop.....rotflmao :D

Well
gotta go fix a water line :D see ya ;)

[ToUtahNow]

I don't agree AT ALL that a drain guys needs to be licensed. I've been doing drain cleaning(with out a license) for over twenty years. I'll put my technical know how and experience against anybody on this board when it comes to drain cleaning. But when it comes to plumbing, there's no way i'll compare myself to most of the full on plumbers on this board. Two totally separate trades.

If your serious about drain cleaning, you really need a truck full of equipment. The plumbers I know usually only have a couple of small snakes and what they do is try to clean a bigger line than what there snake is capable of, and the line ends up stopping up a couple of days later and they end up calling me out. I have seen this countless times. Of course nobody does that on this board. :)

Plumbers will also say that a certain pipe should be replaced. That may be technical right, but just because a mainline has roots in it, or a kitchen sink line is full of sludge, it may only need to be cleaned out once a year which will save the owner alot of money.

I've always believed that a customer is better off calling a "drain" only company than a full on plumber. I have a couple of very large property management companies who believe this also.


This is an over-generalization as well. Although drain cleaning was a small portion of our business I don’t know of any drain cleaning company who carried as many machines as we did on our service trucks. Much of the drain cleaning we did was referrals from drain cleaning companies, second opinions or for customers who lost faith in the drain cleaning businesses they were using.

There was a time when drain cleaning companies hired under-qualified people and drain cleaning companies were considered bottom-feeders. Drain cleaning was not a career it was just a job until something better came along. While that is still true with some companies there are now those in drain cleaning businesses that are professionals. At the same time there are now plumbing companies who follow the model of the old-time drain cleaners. I think we need to judge each individual on his/her own personal abilities rather than putting them into a group.

Mark

[freddy]

Hey all clear I thought you said that you only had a drain cleaning license. Why are you touching water pipe repairs, your breaking the law are you not. The same goes for the rest of the drain cleaners. I would bet from time to time you sell the drain cleaning customer, A new sewer that you handle yourself. You might not install new toilet's or lav's or tub's but I sure if it comes down to digging a drain pipe, you are there permit or not. That's the reason you can charge less. Little to no insurance and other cost that the licensed guy has to have. IMO most of the drain cleaning guys are just above a handyman.And I like to get them busted around my town every chance I get.:D:D:D

[Ozone89]

This is an over-generalization as well. Although drain cleaning was a small portion of our business I don’t know of any drain cleaning company who carried as many machines as we did on our service trucks. Much of the drain cleaning we did was referrals from drain cleaning companies, second opinions or for customers who lost faith in the drain cleaning businesses they were using.

There was a time when drain cleaning companies hired under-qualified people and drain cleaning companies were considered bottom-feeders. Drain cleaning was not a career it was just a job until something better came along. While that is still true with some companies there are now those in drain cleaning businesses that are professionals. At the same time there are now plumbing companies who follow the model of the old-time drain cleaners. I think we need to judge each individual on his/her own personal abilities rather than putting them into a group.

Mark

I hear what you're saying Mark..you make some very good points. The bottom line is..those in coded area's need to follow the code.

They are not above the law that are set forth per jurisdiction. It's all fun and games, until an entire family gets sick..that is why we have heavily coded area's, to protect the consumer. In the end, it will all fall back on the Jurisdiction's for not properly enforcing the code set forth. It's the job of the jurisdiction to help protect the consumer, and we have statue's in place for that.

I'm also at a lost as to why a Drain Company is more competent to clean a drain than a Plumber? I don't understand the logic behind that one, because an un-licensed person(plumbing wise) has no idea about Plumbing design or installation. I know these people didn't have a vision over night to tell them how a Plumbing system properly operates.
I think we all can say that we are the best at what we do, but to say 1 cleans a drain better then the other..is a topic of debate, and kind of silly if you ask me.


For this debate..that is why our jurisdiction and many others in our state amended the code to make sure the consumer has full confidence in hiring a licensed (Plumber) professional,if they so choose.

Finally..

I like the old adage of.."he who crows loudest is usually full of ****!"

[ToUtahNow]

I hear what you're saying Mark..you make some very good points. The bottom line is..those in coded area's need to follow the code.

They are not above the law that are set forth per jurisdiction. It's all fun and games, until an entire family gets sick..that is why we have heavily coded area's, to protect the consumer. In the end, it will all fall back on the Jurisdiction's for not properly enforcing the code set forth. It's the job of the jurisdiction to help protect the consumer, and we have statue's in place for that.

I'm also at a lost as to why a Drain Company is more competent to clean a drain than a Plumber? I don't understand the logic behind that one, because an un-licensed person(plumbing wise) has no idea about Plumbing design or installation. I know these people didn't have a vision over night to tell them how a Plumbing system properly operates.
I think we all can say that we are the best at what we do, but to say 1 cleans a drain better then the other..is a topic of debate, and kind of silly if you ask me.


For this debate..that is why our jurisdiction and many others in our state amended the code to make sure the consumer has full confidence in hiring a licensed (Plumber) professional,if they so choose.

Finally..

I like the old adage of.."he who crows loudest is usually full of ****!"

At the end of the day I believe it is all about the safety and protection of our communities through safe and efficent plumbing systems. For the most part I have seen the members who are on this site are here to learn and to share experiences. Whether they are licensed or not, being on the site shows me they care about the work they do. While I believe there should be a classification for drain cleaners I don't believe it should be a plumbing classification. Perhaps a Health Department license would do the trick.

Mark

[Gene Bickford]

Okay guys I think you are all missing the fact we all live under and work under different jurisdictions. Wh