Fernco Pipe Patch

[Gene Bickford]

I just had dinner with a Fernco Rep and I'm doing my first pipe patch in the morning. In 15hrs I'll be a factory trained installer:eek:.
I've been driving myself nuts since last week trying to pull this all together and at the last minute everything fell into place.:D:D:D

[westcoastplumber]

Ummm, question, what does a fernco certification allow you to do? teach you to do? I personally have never heard about Fernco certification.:confused:

[drtyhands]

I just had dinner with a Fernco Rep and I'm doing my first pipe patch in the morning. In 15hrs I'll be a factory trained installer:eek:.
I've been driving myself nuts since last week trying to pull this all together and at the last minute everything fell into place.:D:D:D
Do they do street main sewer saddles

[Gene Bickford]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GvjwQhfwCc

Shortest video I could find.
No dig patch repair.

[Bob D.]

That video makes it look like the pipe ID is significantly reduced or was it just the camera angle as they say in Hollywood?


This is what they say in Hollywood isn't it Rick? :)

[westcoastplumber]

This is just like Permaliner.

Liner equipment, the id is smaller, but not by very much.

Thanks for the cool video, glad to learn Fernco does this:)

[Gene Bickford]

Yes. It is just like permaliner but half the cost to get started.

[ToUtahNow]

Neat system let's us know how it goes on your repair.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

i've looked into the fernco system for a couple of years now.

the biggest issue is the push rod system they use. it's a joke. let me know what fittings you have to push it through and how far it needs to go.

i've discussed the issues with my fernco rep and he would be thrilled if i come up with a better push rod/ air delivery system. i know i can, but just haven't spent the time to do it. i've already got the idea in my head and can make it at my buddies machine shop.

it's also approx. $215. for a 4'' x 2' patch kit. plus the equipment.

not a real bargain.

gene please take pictures and let us know the entry point, fitting and distance from a real pros perspective. salesmen are not pros.

thanks,

rick

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

Can you negotiate fittings with this system? I assumed it was for straight shots going from man hole to man hole.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

mark the idea was to push it through a combi and the asst. pipe and fittings to the premeasured location determined by your camera inspection.

in real life the push rod assy is nothing more than 1/2'' sch. 80 pvc with air quick connect fittings every 5' for joining. this is the real stumbling block for me. i know i can redesign the push rod assy. and make it work like a seesnake does.

that's why i am asking ben for his photos and specs on the job.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Rick,

It seemed like all of the patches I saw videos of went from man hole to man hole.

It seems like they would be better off pulling with a SS cable than pushing with PVC. They could still drag an air hose behind the patch to inflate the repair.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

mark with a cable, that would require a downstream cleanout.

with a push rod, all that's needed is 1 cleanout.

the push rods are stiff, but too cumbersome with the air fittings.

rick.

gene will be a good judge of the product.

[ToUtahNow]

mark with a cable, that would require a downstream cleanout.

with a push rod, all that's needed is 1 cleanout.

the push rods are stiff, but too cumbersome with the air fittings.

rick.

gene will be a good judge of the product.

Like I said the examples I looked at had man hole access from either side. I thought this was just mean for municipal lines, Is it also meant for private laterals?

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

Never mind I found on the web site they make 3" though 10" packers so it must be used for laterals as well. I need a new lateral at my place but I think I will go with PVC or SDR replacement.

mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

mark the fernco is a 2' spot repair only. at $215. just for the patch, it's spendy.

what's wrong with my trenchless pipe bursting machine. i can do the lateral from the property line to you're house. not the street or sidewalk.

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

mark the fernco is a 2' spot repair only. at $215. just for the patch, it's spendy.

what's wrong with my trenchless pipe bursting machine. i can do the lateral from the property line to you're house. not the street or sidewalk.

rick.

I have Orangeburg which is 40-years old and has never had much of
a problem. However, I need to install a new driveway and the lateral runs under the driveway and out through my apron at the street. If I'm going to replace my driveway I want to do the lateral at the same time.

Mark

[Gene Bickford]

I to am wondering about the integrity of the push rods. The rep claims a push of 100' and over is no problem. this repair (4" lateral) is at 65ish'. Obviously the more fittings the harder the push.
The $215 is not much of an issue here as you can't get someone to back an excavator off the truck for under $2000 and then the $$$ keeps going up depending on the circumstances. Most laterals run between 5'-7' deep so hand digging is out. The average $ for patch repair around here is $1000- $1200. The two customers I have lined up are more then willing to pay that as one does not under any circumstances want his lawn disturbed and the other got a quote of $32000:eek: to replace his lateral. $30000 of that is because the break is in a State road with 24" of concrete. The state wont allow the rebar to be cut:confused: for some reason so the contractor would have to bust all that cement out with jack hammers.
We'll see how the push rod issue works out. I'll post more this afternoon.(hopefully with a smile).

[westcoastplumber]

Never mind I found on the web site they make 3" though 10" packers so it must be used for laterals as well. I need a new lateral at my place but I think I will go with PVC or SDR replacement.

mark


Mark, by a laterall, you mean from your property line, to the city saddle..... here in the south bay, we are unable to use pvc or sdr in the street, the city wants clay only, or sometimes permaliner is allowed.

;)

[westcoastplumber]

mark the fernco is a 2' spot repair only. at $215. just for the patch, it's spendy.

what's wrong with my trenchless pipe bursting machine. i can do the lateral from the property line to you're house. not the street or sidewalk.

rick.


Rick, to correct your terminology, the "Laterall" is between the city saddle to the property line, usually a 6x4, then from that point to within 2" of the footing, "exterior" is called the sewer, then from that point into the house, is called drains.

with your pull machine, you can only do the sewer and if your good, the main trunk of the drains. You are not able to do the "laterall"

Thank You Robert;):D

[ToUtahNow]

Robert,

Be careful correcting us old guys. A sewer lateral is "a sewer discharging into a branch or other sewer and having no tributary sewer."

The upper lateral runs from the house to the property line and the lower lateral runs from the property line to the municipal line.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

thanks mark.

i too will correct the grasshopper in that it's 2' not 2''.

you must of had something else on your mind this morning:D

rick.

[mrs. westcoast]

thanks mark.

i too will correct the grasshopper in that it's 2' not 2''.

you must of had something else on your mind this morning:D

rick.

Mark,

Rob has a codebook in front of him right now

When speaking in the terms of drains the codebook states building drainage=strains.

Building sewer, 2 feet from building

in chapter 7 they do not use the terminology upper building lateral,they use building sewet past 2 feet

[ToUtahNow]

Mark,

Rob has a codebook in front of him right now

When speaking in the terms of drains the codebook states building drainage=strains.

Building sewer, 2 feet from building

in chapter 7 they do not use the terminology upper building lateral,they use building sewet past 2 feet

I've called Robert and gave him some homework for when he gets home tonight.

Mark

[mrs. westcoast]

I've called Robert and gave him some homework for when he gets home tonight.

Mark


Hmmmm, I guess...............in a way.....................I stand corrected, upper lateral and lower lateral exist.

I mean't 2' from the footing daddy, so you aren't able to correct me there.

As far as the drain being the drain, the sewer being the sewer and the lateral, off the property line part, I will agree to disagree, only reason, because we use that terminology all around here, I speak it with the city guy's, customers and inspectors, we used those terms, so I guess, if I was a civil engineer, then I would use Upper and Lower Lateral.

Let me also throw in that the code book does not describe a upper lateral at all, they use the Term: Building Sewer and Building Drain;):D


ROBERT

[westcoastplumber]

I will be carefull to not limit my knowledge to the UPC ;):D

[Gene Bickford]

I think I attached a pic of today. we'll see.

The patch went great. The break was at 47' and it was about 2' 3" long so it required two patch kits. It worked out pretty good as the Rep did one and my wife and I did the other. We entered through the clean out and easily pushed through two 45s in the first 7'. The push rods held up quite well. We only went 50' but with the ease of the push I think a push of 100' + would be very feasible. I have a job lined up in the A.M. Break at 62' in a clay line.
We were in and out in 4hrs. 1hr prep and set up. 2 1/2hr waiting for patches to cure and 1/2hr cleanup.
I didn't get many pics as I was focused on the task at hand but , the Rep got a bunch and I'll have him e-mail them. If someone would come out with some editing software thats compatible with Windows P.O.S. Vista I could post the video to you tube.
Oh Yeah. Apparently someone did a little pipe patch of their own. Check out the duct tape holding the water softener drain by the meter.

[Bob D.]

That looks like only one layer of duct tape, I think Code requires a minimum of two layers. :)

[westcoastplumber]

And where is the caulking:confused::D

[westcoastplumber]

Thank You Gene for introducing this system to the forum, I never heard about it until you brought it here, The big thing here is Permaliner.

I have been researching this product, it is easier then Permaliner, there is no mixing of 2 different epoxy with weights and measures, it just comes in a bag and you just mix it up. Looks like one person can handle the system with little or no problems.

I am curious about the warranty on this product, please ask you rep when you see him.

Thank You Again

Robert

[PLUMBER RICK]

nice photo gene.

i was expecting a cast iron or clay sewer. pvc and abs is very slick and will be much easier than cast or clay. you already know that from camering jobs.

how flexible was that push rod assy? did it hang up on anything? the packer is how long and the patch is only 2'. i know there are other companies that have 5' packers. so this 4' section ended up costing over $100. a foot:eek: for the materials. and the packer, push rods, and regulator was another $1200. i would think that you can buy the material in a bulk roll and save some money.

rick.

[Gene Bickford]

nice photo gene.
Yeah, about time I figured out how to post a pic:rolleyes:. Turns out my camera was set to poster size pics.

Doing a clay line at 62' this morning so I'll have a better idea (and more pics) of the push potential.

[Gene Bickford]

Everything went pretty good today other then spending two hours trying to get a small piece of clay pipe out of the patch area:mad:. That damm thing would not move in or out no matter what I did. It was just big enough that it wouldn't get past the next joint. Then I noticed every time a big truck went by I could see the ground move and ooze in a bit. Noticing it was do or die time I sent it in and put the air to it before it collapsed. Then I sat and bit my nails for 1 1/2hr waiting for it to cure. When I pulled the packer out and sent the camera in I found that that piece was pushed right back into the void. THANK GOD! The only problem was this break to was just over 2' so it required two patches. The rep claims they are working on a 4' patch that should be out fairly soon. I'd at least see a 3' patch. They have 4' for 6" and up.
The push was no problem at all. 3 45s in the first 5' so at one point the packer was in all three at the same time.
Total cost to customer, $1400. Total cost to me, $??????. That piece of clay moving into that void, PRICELESS:D.