Problem with "Rooting" Company

[joust]

I had a backed up drain in my basement that was the result of a blockage (Roots & stuff/paper caught on roots) in the main line that ran to the street. About 3-4 years ago we had it cleaned out for ~ $500 and it was no problem. This time I called a local "Rooter" company and they sent out a guy that asked me if I wanted it snaked or jetted out. The jetting was more expensive and I guessed more thorough so I went with that option. He sent the jetter straight in and went to town and then he called me down to tell me that he got the jetter caught in a small offset where my pipe met the city. He and I tried to pull it out to no avail. He then called his supervisor who sent another plumber w/ assistant to address the problem. He didn't seem to make any effort to free the jetter, but sent a camera down, showed me the roots I knew were there and then the offset that the jetter was caught in. He did some other analysis and then determined that the only option was to cut into the sidewalk, remove the jetter, pipe burst the 4" line (repipe) and then replace the 6" that connected to the city which he estimated at ~$15000. I don't deny that our pipe wasn't pristine (It's a 1926 house), and that it probably needed to be replaced, but I didn't feel like it needed to be now. I'm looking for general information as to how most plumbers would approach this. Reading this and other forums and talking to a couple other plumbers that came out and looked at the problem I've come to the conclusion that:

The best way to approach this would have been to:
-Camera
-Cable/snake the blockage so the camera could complete its route
-Camera to understand nature of pipes
-Jet carefully with an understanding that an offset existed that needed to be avoided.

I think he went in there kind of carelessly, didn't use an analytical approach to tackle the clog, and then the plumber sent out in the afternoon was trying to turn it into a big ticket job (Probably on commision). I feel like this could have been done more professionally and that the company should have offered to pay for the work necessary to extract their equipment. I'm happy to pay for the pipe work needed to replace old pipe, but don't feel like we should have to pay a company to remove their tools. What are folks thoughts?

[TomSV650]

Tell them to get there jetter hose out for no charge, or you'll get someone else who will.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Tell them to get there jetter hose out for no charge, or you'll get someone else who will.

sounds good to me.

what was on their original proposal or contract that you signed prior to the jetting?

it sounds like the jetter hose and nozzle they used was too small and it found it's way out of the pipe.

what was the size of the hose, nozzle, and jetter? was it a trailer jetter parked outside?

chances are that the machine and equipment used was too small to actually do the job.

can you post a photo of the situation. basement line with the hose.

can you copy the contract you signed and post it.

my feeling is they probably didn't use the right equipment for the job and got themselves in trouble.

typically not a wise idea to jet a plugged up line from the basement. what did they do to keep the basement from flooding. typically it takes at least 10 gpm. of water to cut roots at 2500# minimum.

i would have snaked it from a basement. my jetter for roots is only designed for 4'' and bigger pipes. it would have had to be a very large offset to get that nozzle stuck.

rick.

[All Clear Sewer]

Ok from a sewer guy here's how it would go with me:

First off I would cable the drain and "if" I got stuck I then would run my camera down. I would show you that you had a breached line. "I know I can get my cable out with the camera down the line" I would charge you for time spent on the job site and if you didn't want to fix your sewer that`s your problem not mine. I would never run a jetter down a line that had roots! You never know what the problem is till you start working. You can Not run a camera down a line that's plugged as you cant see though the nasty water. Best way is to try the Cable first, then if there is a problem and the drain is open you can run the camera and see why you are stuck.
Like I said before I only charge for the time I`m on the job, if you don't fix your broken line that's your problem ;)

P.S. I have NEVER left a cable in a sewer to this date ;)

[JERRYMAC]

Yes To All Clear;
That Has Been My Way Of Doing Drains, For Over 30 Years. I Would Never Run A Jetter Down A House Sewer That Is Clogged Because Of The Extra Water Flooding Into House, You Would Need To Clear Blockadge With Cable Mach. First,
Whoever You Had Out Is Trying To Sell You A Job, Any Offset In Pipe Has Been There Since Pipe First Laid, And The Co. You Had To Do Job Before Got Past It When They Did Work,

Jerrymac Masterplumber

[ToUtahNow]

We never left equipment in a drain and we always removed it at our costs unless we warned the client first that it might happen and they still wanted it done. I have removed a lot of equipment others left in drain lines though.

Mark

[Drain Medic]

I had a backed up drain in my basement that was the result of a blockage (Roots & stuff/paper caught on roots) in the main line that ran to the street. About 3-4 years ago we had it cleaned out for ~ $500 and it was no problem. This time I called a local "Rooter" company and they sent out a guy that asked me if I wanted it snaked or jetted out. The jetting was more expensive and I guessed more thorough so I went with that option. He sent the jetter straight in and went to town and then he called me down to tell me that he got the jetter caught in a small offset where my pipe met the city. He and I tried to pull it out to no avail. He then called his supervisor who sent another plumber w/ assistant to address the problem. He didn't seem to make any effort to free the jetter, but sent a camera down, showed me the roots I knew were there and then the offset that the jetter was caught in. He did some other analysis and then determined that the only option was to cut into the sidewalk, remove the jetter, pipe burst the 4" line (repipe) and then replace the 6" that connected to the city which he estimated at ~$15000. I don't deny that our pipe wasn't pristine (It's a 1926 house), and that it probably needed to be replaced, but I didn't feel like it needed to be now. I'm looking for general information as to how most plumbers would approach this. Reading this and other forums and talking to a couple other plumbers that came out and looked at the problem I've come to the conclusion that:

The best way to approach this would have been to:
-Camera
-Cable/snake the blockage so the camera could complete its route
-Camera to understand nature of pipes
-Jet carefully with an understanding that an offset existed that needed to be avoided.

I think he went in there kind of carelessly, didn't use an analytical approach to tackle the clog, and then the plumber sent out in the afternoon was trying to turn it into a big ticket job (Probably on commision). I feel like this could have been done more professionally and that the company should have offered to pay for the work necessary to extract their equipment. I'm happy to pay for the pipe work needed to replace old pipe, but don't feel like we should have to pay a company to remove their tools. What are folks thoughts?



House from the 1920s...You would think that the piping was replaced at one time or another, and if not, common sense wouldve told your company that was out there, that if it is original, heres possibly what we could run into....Along with the other guys, i to in 13yrs have never lost, or left a cable stuck in a line....Good luck


Greg

[BAPlumber]

sounds good to me.

what was on their original proposal or contract that you signed prior to the jetting?

can you copy the contract you signed and post it.

rick.

yeah, post the contract if you can. If it was the rooter company I used to work for in Seattle, the contract states that they are not responsible for the condition of your pipe and any additional work due to the condition, will be an additional charge.

[BAPlumber]

House from the 1920s...You would think that the piping was replaced at one time or another, and if not, common sense wouldve told your company that was out there, that if it is original, heres possibly what we could run into....Along with the other guys, i to in 13yrs have never lost, or left a cable stuck in a line....Good luck


Greg

In Seattle probably 60-70% of the buildings have either clay or concrete sewer lines.

I would have started with a snake and not the jetter, unless this was a repeat customer that I knew only the jetter would clear it.

I had one customer that I went to once a year who had sludge problem and I jetted from the basement . I'd push the jetter hose out about 30 ft. which was beyond the stoppage. Then jetted the problem from the far side. this way very little water came into the basement.

[Drain Medic]

I had a backed up drain in my basement that was the result of a blockage (Roots & stuff/paper caught on roots) in the main line that ran to the street. About 3-4 years ago we had it cleaned out for ~ $500 and it was no problem. This time I called a local "Rooter" company and they sent out a guy that asked me if I wanted it snaked or jetted out. The jetting was more expensive and I guessed more thorough so I went with that option. He sent the jetter straight in and went to town and then he called me down to tell me that he got the jetter caught in a small offset where my pipe met the city. He and I tried to pull it out to no avail. He then called his supervisor who sent another plumber w/ assistant to address the problem. He didn't seem to make any effort to free the jetter, but sent a camera down, showed me the roots I knew were there and then the offset that the jetter was caught in. He did some other analysis and then determined that the only option was to cut into the sidewalk, remove the jetter, pipe burst the 4" line (repipe) and then replace the 6" that connected to the city which he estimated at ~$15000. I don't deny that our pipe wasn't pristine (It's a 1926 house), and that it probably needed to be replaced, but I didn't feel like it needed to be now. I'm looking for general information as to how most plumbers would approach this. Reading this and other forums and talking to a couple other plumbers that came out and looked at the problem I've come to the conclusion that:

The best way to approach this would have been to:
-Camera
-Cable/snake the blockage so the camera could complete its route
-Camera to understand nature of pipes
-Jet carefully with an understanding that an offset existed that needed to be avoided.

I think he went in there kind of carelessly, didn't use an analytical approach to tackle the clog, and then the plumber sent out in the afternoon was trying to turn it into a big ticket job (Probably on commision). I feel like this could have been done more professionally and that the company should have offered to pay for the work necessary to extract their equipment. I'm happy to pay for the pipe work needed to replace old pipe, but don't feel like we should have to pay a company to remove their tools. What are folks thoughts?

In Seattle probably 60-70% of the buildings have either clay or concrete sewer lines.

I would have started with a snake and not the jetter, unless this was a repeat customer that I knew only the jetter would clear it.

I had one customer that I went to once a year who had sludge problem and I jetted from the basement . I'd push the jetter hose out about 30 ft. which was beyond the stoppage. Then jetted the problem from the far side. this way very little water came into the basement.


Definitely, we run into alot of clay too....Im just going by, that this was a 1st time customer...Either way...your right, if the only access is inside, definitely cable it 1st, at least clear, camera it, then jet it....at least after you video it, you know where the problems are, you send the jetter head up to the camera, and go to town :)

[gear junkie]

Why is the expert asking you what you want? That's why you pay for his services and knowledge. He should have made the choice for you on snaking or jetting. As an average homeowner, you don't know advantages and disadvantages of each other than cost. I often don't give my customers an option how I will fix their problem.

[Gene Bickford]

Back when I first started drain cleaning I worked for a guy and his father and we got his snake stuck. We knew distance wise we had to be in the town main so we called the town and got permission to enter the main with a camera. Of course the whole crew came out to watch with plans in hand. It turns out that section of the town system was rebuilt in the late 80's and the current home owner just happened to be the sewer director at the time. So we have all these "experts" telling us this and that and we are sitting there looking like incompetent fools. We camera the main and find no tie in for that home or the one across the street. The "experts" are saying " nope its right here on the plans" and there looking at us like we had some kind of trick camera something. The home owner starts swelling his chest and saying " I was in charge when this was done and theres no way in hell this didn't get tied in" At this point the old man has had enough of us having to sit and look like fools and we know somethings not right here so, he too starts swelling his chest and things start getting heated so we ended up bringing him home and called in the excavator. As it turns out, that home and the one across the street were never tied in to the new system so for 10 years or so they were dumping into the disconnected system. I guess the old main acted like a septic system. Public beach 1000' away down hill. Gee I wonder why it was closed so much due to bacteria levels?
The guy I worked for ended up paying for half the cost for the dig and didn't give the home owner any bill.
This is when I learned when when you suspect something may happen, ALWAYS stop and explain the situation to the home owner and let them know if you continue and get stuck it will be at their expense.

[Ozone89]

Using a jetter for roots?

Sounds to me, that the person they sent out was not properly trained, or the slightest clue about anything..especially roots or the design of a Plumbing system.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Using a jetter for roots?

Sounds to me, that the person they sent out was not properly trained, or the slightest clue about anything..especially roots or the design of a Plumbing system.


the person was most likely on a commission. and true not properly trained in the first place. hence your drain cleaning license post:D

to be honest a proper jetter and nozzle will do a better job on roots, grease, mud almost everything out there.

once again, under the circumstances, i would not have even suggested a jetter.

the city trucks are mainly combination jetters and vacuums now. the old rodder trucks are being phased out.

rick.

[Ozone89]

the person was most likely on a commission. and true not properly trained in the first place. hence your drain cleaning license post:D

to be honest a proper jetter and nozzle will do a better job on roots, grease, mud almost everything out there.

once again, under the circumstances, i would not have even suggested a jetter.

the city trucks are mainly combination jetters and vacuums now. the old rodder trucks are being phased out.

rick.

I learned something today.

I guess from being taught by an old timer...it was always a cutter to use..then wash it out.

Since I never owned a jetter (still debating) I never would of thought a jetter could clear thick roots.

[ccouch]

You should not pay for any of that. This was a bad choice for the plumber to put a jetter in first. Too many things can go wrong starting with a jetter. That is my opinion. If you do not get the clog unstopped, all that water has to go somewhere. Bust a hole in it with the machine. Run teh camera in and get a first hand look. Then put the jetter in, with the right head, to finish the job. I think you have to face every job with a different manner. I have always beleived that a backhoe was the only fix for massive root damage. If I find this, I will make sure the customers knows the consequences if I get the cable hung. We want to be a company that fixes problems; not creating them. Goodluck with your situation.

[westcoastplumber]

I communicate every possibility to the customer, I never run a jetter without the camera option, after explaining the pro's to the camera, if the customer chooses not to run the camera, I note it on my invoice before I start. I can only offer the customer what I feel is right, if they choose otherwise, it is their house, their sewer problem. I am not going to buy their problems, or make them worse. Once everything is clear to the customer, then I proceed, they love the information beforehand, I have never had a customer refuse any logical advice. Proper wording and kowledege helps the customer not be scared. If something does happen, they knew the risks beforhand and understood what it was going to take to fix it.:D

[garydean]

A properly trained technician would not have given you the option to jet the line. A few problems here with jetting; water pressure will only dissolve the waste blockage in the line leaving the roots still in the line. Most older sewer pipes going to the city main are indeed tile and are not in good condition. Hairline cracks have formed over the years from the pressure and growth of the roots getting in at the connections from the house to the street. Most of the time the house line leading to the street is a bit higher than the city main, so the house line drops down via a Tee, 90 elbow or similar. 9 times out of 10 when a jet is run from the house to the street the elbow is destroyed by the nozzle as it has difficulty negotiating the turn. When the jet tries to negotiate the bend it actually will blast thru the wall of the bend and become lodged, almost impossible to get out.

Regardless of what you signed, the jet option should never have suggested or offered as a means to "clear the blockage". check terminology or call an attorney. The cleaning company is insured and should be covered depending on your state and local laws. You should not be on the hook to get their equipment out OR be held responsible in repairing a pipe that "may" have lasted many more years if it were cleaned correctly. On the other hand your pipe may have been a total disaster and completely destroyed by roots or deteriorated from age, in which case you may never know.

good luck
Gary

[Tieger plumbing]

I snake first never use Jetter on an older sewer main

I do use a head on a 3/4" wire like the 2 U to get the waste flowing then after the wire is retrieved go in again with a bigger cutting head and keep Rodding until the snake comes back clear of roots or debris.

With the wire I can see the tension and run the wire in and out hopefully before it gets really tangled up takinge precaution needed to prevent it from getting stuck that it cant be with drawn

Jetting is great to normally restore full piping flow from years of build up soap scum and grease but to initially go in an older sewer with a Jetter not one my watch without a video inspection fogetaboutit
Thankfully in over 40 years in the trade I never left a wire stuck in a sewer or drain.

I once had a Jetter hose I had to hook up on the back of a van bumper to pull it out as it did find and open joint and dug itself in really tight.

They put it in they have to get it out or call a licensed plumbing company to get the hose out if they cant