green board vs cement board

[gear junkie]

When doing a shower or tub with tile, which should you use? My understanding is that green board is great for humid areas like a bathroom but shouldn't be used in the tub or shower. What's right?

[ToUtahNow]

How many pictures of failed greenboard showers would you like me to send you. I literally have thousands plus just as many of the resultant mold remediation. Most greenboard manufacturers now state the greenboard should not be used as tile substrate for bathrooms.

I don't care what you do water always seems to get behind tile in a shower. The plumber won't seal his penetrations with putty or the building will settle a little and you get a small seperation. With cement board it gets wet then you find the problem and the cement board dries out. With greenboard it gets wet and then you tear the shower out and redo it.

Mark

[garager]

We never use green board any more, period. It has been proven that it retains water which promotes mold, so building inspector says, no more. Hardy backer board is pretty much all I ever use now. A cement board of any brand just about will be sufficient behind the tiles, above tiles, go back to wallboard.

[staab29]

use concrete board, unless you want to tear it out in 5 years:)

[Master Engineer]

Unfortunately, gc's want to save money and install the cheap greenboard. Faster installation....and has an even quicker deterioration.

[garager]

Unfortunately, gc's want to save money and install the cheap greenboard. Faster installation....and has an even quicker deterioration.

Excuse me :eek:, I'm a G.C. and I don't do what your saying. Maybe you should have said something in the line of, "I know of one G.C. that"..... I have been in Business for quite a while and I do not take people to the cleaners :mad:.......

Rephrase your statement please........... That would be nice............. :cool::)

[toolaholic]

I'm a G.C. and I float or Hardi bd. Go green bd ? that's nuts

[Sylvan Tieger]

How many pictures of failed greenboard showers would you like me to send you. I literally have thousands plus just as many of the resultant mold remediation. Most greenboard manufacturers now state the greenboard should not be used as tile substrate for bathrooms.

I don't care what you do water always seems to get behind tile in a shower. The plumber won't seal his penetrations with putty or the building will settle a little and you get a small seperation. With cement board it gets wet then you find the problem and the cement board dries out. With greenboard it gets wet and then you tear the shower out and redo it.

Mark


I never could understand why someone would spend several thousand dollars to install a new bathroom then cut corners using garbage for the walls?

Bathrooms especially where there is a shower is notorious for moisture so why not go cement board for the entire room?

Less chance of mold damage and like you said once it gets wet it will dry out green board call a dumpster

Labor normally cost more then materials do the job right and charge accordingly

[garager]

Who in the heck is still using Green Board anymore, I keep hearing that people are still installing them. I don't know of one person, that has used Green Board in over 10 years. I don't know of one Contractor that has used Green Board in that many years also. Its been somewhere around 15 yrs for me.

Studies were telling us to use this product many years back and Building Inspectors were telling us to install Green Board around tubs and shower stalls. It didn't take long to figure out, they were all wrong and we went to alternative materials or stay w/your everyday wallboard.

Now if there are people still out there installing Green Boards, then they are idiots. Funny thing is, your local Big Boxes are still trying to promote this product, so go blame them, for even mentioning it........

[ToUtahNow]

Who in the heck is still using Green Board anymore, I keep hearing that people are still installing them. I don't know of one person, that has used Green Board in over 10 years. I don't know of one Contractor that has used Green Board in that many years also. Its been somewhere around 15 yrs for me.

Studies were telling us to use this product many years back and Building Inspectors were telling us to install Green Board around tubs and shower stalls. It didn't take long to figure out, they were all wrong and we went to alternative materials or stay w/your everyday wallboard.

Now if there are people still out there installing Green Boards, then they are idiots. Funny thing is, your local Big Boxes are still trying to promote this product, so go blame them, for even mentioning it........

I did a couple of cases which involved over 1,100 homes all using green board as the tile substrate. It was some of the worst failures I have ever seen and some owners had not been able to use their showers in years.

Mark

[garager]

I don't doubt that one bit, Mark. What were the ages of these homes? And what were we suppose to do 15-20yrs ago, when the Building Inspectors we're telling us to put this in. Something like this, is tough to take the responsibility for. When a product is approved to be used in an environment such as a bathroom, is this the G.C.'s fault, no. But when its a proven failure and they keep on using this product, you bet your @ss, its the G.C.'s responsibility.

I have known for a long time Green Board is a failure of a product, this is why its hard for me to comprehend any G.C.'s to still be using the product. I can understand a H.O. installing it, because the stores are still trying to push it.

But to get back to the original statement, I will have to say. Not all General Contractors use this board and thus, is why I wanted that statement retracted. And that would be the proper thing to do.......


Mark (Garager)

[franklie]

In your opinion in the areas outside of the tile area of a shower, is regular sheetrock beter or worse to use than greenboard?

there is no direct water hitting in that area but there could be higher humidity.

[ToUtahNow]

I don't doubt that one bit, Mark. What were the ages of these homes? And what were we suppose to do 15-20yrs ago, when the Building Inspectors we're telling us to put this in. Something like this, is tough to take the responsibility for. When a product is approved to be used in an environment such as a bathroom, is this the G.C.'s fault, no. But when its a proven failure and they keep on using this product, you bet your @ss, its the G.C.'s responsibility.

I have known for a long time Green Board is a failure of a product, this is why its hard for me to comprehend any G.C.'s to still be using the product. I can understand a H.O. installing it, because the stores are still trying to push it.

But to get back to the original statement, I will have to say. Not all General Contractors use this board and thus, is why I wanted that statement retracted. And that would be the proper thing to do.......


Mark (Garager)

These homes were built between 1996 and 2000 and I was hired in 2001.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

In your opinion in the areas outside of the tile area of a shower, is regular sheetrock beter or worse to use than greenboard?

there is no direct water hitting in that area but there could be higher humidity.

There is nothing wrong with Green Board when installed as it was meant to be. The problem is when it is improperly used as a tile substrate.

Mark

[garager]

There is nothing wrong with Green Board when installed as it was meant to be. The problem is when it is improperly used as a tile substrate.

Mark

Agree 100%

[rockinrandy]

Im not a GC but im the guy that works for the gc.Last time i did a bathroom,i told the homeowner on the side, to make sure we used cement board.They had to convince my boss,to use it.He wanted to use green board.
Years later the home owner saw me on beale st. bought me a beer and thanked me. One of their friends had green board .They had to pay to have it done again 4 or 5 years later. Like My dad use to say ,do it right or just don't do it at all.I went to work for someone else soon after.

[Wild Weasel]

I'm using something called DensShield on the shower I'm building. The drywall that was there (greenboard?) had completely failed. It pretty much dissolved away in places.

http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4684

That's the stuff I'm using. Here's hoping it lasts... :)

[garager]

I'm using something called DensShield on the shower I'm building. The drywall that was there (greenboard?) had completely failed. It pretty much dissolved away in places.

http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4684

That's the stuff I'm using. Here's hoping it lasts... :)

I have used it also, on a few jobs. Decent product, and I will use it again....

[yasudaplumbing]

Behind tiles, marble, stone: 15# felt first, then Cement Board or Hardi Backer Board.

Any wall or ceilings in high humidity areas (Bathrooms, kitchens, laundry rooms, basements, etc.): Denshield or Dens Armor Plus , the only hassle with these boards is they need to be fully skim coated for a smooth wall finish, otherwise the fiber texture shows when only primed & painted.

Tracy

[papadan]

Alright guys, I am a weekend warrior. Had to rebuild my sons bathroom. Tiled the bathtub/shower and floor. Home Depot had 2 stacks, one said Hardi backer the other said cement board. Had 2 different boxes of screws to go with them. They told me I had to use HB and HB screws for a bathroom and not the cement board and its screws. Whats the difference? Oh, and they were the same price, so that was not the reason for them telling me which to use.

[Wild Weasel]

I think that the most obvious difference is that cement board isn't at all easy for a weekend warrior to work with. It's pretty much what it sounds like. A sheet of cement. So you can't just score and snap it like you can with other tile backers.

I don't know what HardiBoard is. Is that similar to DensShield?

[ToUtahNow]

I think that the most obvious difference is that cement board isn't at all easy for a weekend warrior to work with. It's pretty much what it sounds like. A sheet of cement. So you can't just score and snap it like you can with other tile backers.

I don't know what HardiBoard is. Is that similar to DensShield?

No HardiBoard is a cement backer board made by Hardi.

Mark

[YankeeConCo]

Well, I must say in my humble opinion, ther is ALOT of good info here.

That being said, I use 1/4" ply over the studs, Bitchethane over that , so when I screw the cement board, either Hardi or Cement, doesn't matter, with their respective fasteners, it seals the holes. Over the cement board is a skim coat of UNmodified thinset, into which I embed Schluter Ditra Vapor Barrier, then a coat of Latex MODIFIED thinset into which the tiles are set. Then a Modified, unsanded grout, which will remain somewhat flexible over its lifetime and is less prone to cracking due to settling. Just my two cents worth.

[papadan]

Well, I must say in my humble opinion, ther is ALOT of good info here.

That being said, I use 1/4" ply over the studs, Bitchethane over that , so when I screw the cement board, either Hardi or Cement, doesn't matter, with their respective fasteners, it seals the holes. Over the cement board is a skim coat of UNmodified thinset, into which I embed Schluter Ditra Vapor Barrier, then a coat of Latex MODIFIED thinset into which the tiles are set. Then a Modified, unsanded grout, which will remain somewhat flexible over its lifetime and is less prone to cracking due to settling. Just my two cents worth.
Here's a guy that does a lot of tile, and does it right. I think he is related to Mike Holmes. :D

[Engr60]

Odd. The reason we don't suggest greenboard is always lost on the "pros" and confuses the DIY'ers.... the primary reason not to use the board is NOT because it retains moisture. It only retains if moisture penetrates the surface barrier which is unlikely if the proper fasteners are used, the plasticized surface is compromised, or the edges or joints are properly sealed. No the primary reason is the surface adhesion of the plasticizer is poor relative to cement board or regular drywall. This causes installations that can move or creep with thermal cycles to release the thinset, allowing a gap between the tile and the board when the poorly applied or improper grout is used or not maintained - water has to enter through poor grout seals. The water then traps between the tiles and board - and moisture penetrates tiles from the unglazed side. Simple problem that grows mold and makes things worse. Look at homes built in the 60's and 70's. Only those with cruddy grout or damage or shoddy wall/frame work behin exhibit mold and rot problems. No, green board shouldn't be used, but if you are remodeling or repairing, a well prepared regular drywall will work just fine. Think about it... the surrounding tiles have been in place for decades - they aren't falling off. The problem with most materials is the "pros" do not follow the maunfacturers specs, dont seal edge joints or laps properly, and don't use paper or underlayment as recommended. "takes too long", "costs too much". As an engineer of materials I have heard all the excuses. Don't let anyone confuse you about greenboard - if you use the right papers or isolation membranes with the recommended adhesives and a good quality grout, and you've followed good practuce of materials stabilizing on the jobsite, you will have good results. Our industry has suffered because we have too many "pros" that think their mastic, fasteners, membranes and adhesives are ok for the job. Anyone got a ladder so I can get off this pedestal?!

[garager]

Thats a crock, blame it on the worker/business owner/pro's. as always. What about the house shifting (old homes), gee can that damage a mans job? Or how about shrinkage/settling or vibration from a 300lb man running and jumping. Or how about an irate person pounding on the wall, because his warm water went cold all of a sudden or kids bashing on the walls, which all of these situations can break a water seal.

I have torn out many, many walls due to lots of moisture. I'm sure a few were from improper installation, but I'm also sure there is H.O.'s abuse and no maintenance performed, when there needs to be.

This isn't only tiled walls I'm referring to. I do as much as I can to make my work right and safe. I also know many other contractors that do the same, it's called pride in our work. The ones that usually botch the stuff/jobs up are hacks and H.O.'s. "Paper cost too much and the time to install it", wrong!!!!!

For a man who has 2 posts in here and basically attacks the construction business owners/pro's., this pissed me off, especially coming from an engineer. Do you got a problem with us, because I never had one with you or with any engineer and I have seen some faulty designed products in my time.

We do everything in our knowledge to water proof everything from the roof down, with the materials that we can use (designed by engineers). What about the H.O.'s that refuse to spend more dollars to tighten it up even more so. Do I walk away from a job, because the H.O won't listen to me, no I won't, but I will still go that extra mile to ensure a proper job, not just an adequate job.

I am a Pro and been in this line of work for 28 yrs, you are an Engineer. Go slander the hacks and H.O.'s, they're the ones that screws up 90% of the jobs or more.

So the Pro's are lost and the H.O's are just confused eh. Thanks for saying I don't know sh!t and your so damn much better. You got any idea how many different types of materials I need to know about, or how I have to run a crew or the subs and make sure that they are doing everything according to codes or the way I like it, above codes. Do you realize I must take many continuing education courses every single year or to take new courses to better myself to understand new materials and technology.

Do you also realize I must take full responsibility for all builds for a minimum 10 yrs, or min. 1 yr on all materials and 2 yrs on all mechanical. Gee whiz, does this sound as if I'm lost or don't know what I'm doing. Why don't you get out there and teach us/me how to perform my work.

I have much respect for Engineers, but you pissed me off. There are many ways water can travel and do damage to a mans work. And I highly doubt that a "pro's" work is the cause of future water problems/damage in walls. Materials are made to last so long and to take a certain amount of abuse, think about this when your kid is taking a bath and slamming his tonka truck into your bathroom wall....

I'm done w/my ranting......... :D And I sure hope this is all just a miss understanding.....................

[garager]

Yep, makes a comment and never comes back. I was looking for a debate here and didn't get one..........

Well actually no debate here, I'm right he's wrong.... :way-to-go: :running-dog: :smash: :D