18 Volt Lithium-Ion Batteries - Ah rating situation

[canucksartech]

This is something that has just come to bear with the batteries that come with the 18 Volt Lithium-Ion Compact drill (R86006). Up to now, the information being told to us from Ridgid was that the batteries that come with this kit were rated at 2.9 Ah, but now it seems, we are being told they are only in fact 1.5 Ah.

Like others here have said, there's a huge letdown here if we are NOW being told that the 18 volt lithium-ion batteries are only 1.5 Ah. There's quite a few of us who got one right at the end of June, after they were released for Father's Day. And, most of us based our purchasing decision on the Ah rating. And, at that time, I myself was told by multiple sources (Ridgid customer service x 3 calls, Ridgid tech support x 2 calls, in-store Ridgid rep x 1, store associates x quite-a-few-but-we-know-they-are-usually-wrong) that these batteries were 2.9 Ah. And I, like others, presumed this to be correct due to the reference to 18 volt 3.0 Ah lithium-ion batteries on the boxes of various MaxSelect tools (even if the picture looked different - we could understand a design styling change). Also, based on my usage, I felt like this 2.9 Ah number was correct - I noticed a bit of a better performance when compared to my previous standard 18 volt drill, with the standard 1.4 Ah ni-cads (or whatever they were), plus I've done some side-by-side testing with a 2.5 MaxAh NiCad, and felt the lithium-ion did better, therefore warranting the 2.9 Ah rating I was being told of. But, if these are in fact only 1.5 Ah, and I therefore missing out more on the power of 2.9 Ah, I would feel very jaded and disappointed to know that I'm not getting the power/performance I should have been.

But now we are being told they might only be 1.5 Ah. Over 3 months since they were released. This is a huuuuuggee letdown. We're talking about multiple internal sources from Ridgid passing on incorrect information previously, if it is true that these are in fact only 1.5 Ah - whether it is being passed along fraudulently or unintentionally is a whole different matter altogether!

I for one (and I'm guessing others as well, based on posts on this forum) would like some real answers. We've talked about this for months now. And for months Ridgid has not given us a real answer to this on paper, or bothered to at least update and reflect this info on the product listing on the Ridgid webpage. Basically...WTF Ridgid?!!?!!

It's been 3 months since these were released - can we get a real answer on this??????? :confused:

Josh / ProBrand / Other-Ridgid-reps ?????

[Woussko]

Because of Ridgid having such a limited selection of cordless tools, if I were in the market for an upgrade or were starting into cordless, I would look long and hard at what's out there from other manufactures and then decide. I personally hate to have several types of batteries and chargers to deal with. With there being a long standing issue of it being hard to purchase replacement battery packs or chargers for Ridgid brand cordless tools, I doubt I would purchase any (any model that is) until this is corrected.

[canucksartech]

Just got off the phone with Ridgid (1-800-4-Ridgid).

I was originally talking with a guy in customer service (Paul or some common name like that). I asked him about this battery question. First answer he gave me - "The batteries that come in this kit are 2.9 Ah from what I've heard."

Then I told him about this little kerfluffle on the forum, and I asked that he reconfirm that for me. He put me on hold for a 1/2 minute, then came back and told me that he had double-checked this with Theresa in technical support/services. "Apparently, these batteries included in this kit are only 1.5 Ah."

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, Paul ended up transferring me through to Tom, in the "technical product inquiry" department, or something like that. As I was explaining the connundrum to him, he was somewhat quick to talk over me (quite rudely), and explain that it was a 1.5 Ah battery, always has been, hasn't changed, that's what is on paper. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I kindly asked him where it is on paper. After him trying to go through the product listings on the webpage, and his other sources, he kind of back stepped, and told me that either way, it was only 1.5 Ah, and he would transfer me over to Larry Snyder, one of the head product design/tech guys.

So I left Larry a message, and explained the situation to him. Waiting for a callback now.

[doubtingtom]

Just my personal opinion, but I feel the Ridgid 1.5 Ahr L-I batts are very small and light ... and therefore very convenvient to use, especially on the compact drill. If 3.0 AHrs is a major deal, then having 2 sets of 1.5's is an easy solution. For those who feel Ridgid misinformed them, they deserve a 'super' deal on 2 additional 1.5 AHr L-I batts to make up the power deficit. Looking at Makita's offering, I don't really see a major difference comparing 1.5 AHr L-I batts.

Again, just my serious 2c worth.

I would also add .... Ridgid needs to do a far better job of spec'ing and publishing their product data.

Tom B

[canucksartech]

So, Larry Snyder just called me back. Nice guy, 15 minute phone call, very good service attitude.

He got my message and was calling me back. He stated he had just spoke to Tom about my call. He said that as he has always known it, these batteries are 1.5 Ah. He stated he doesn't know where the 2.9 came from, he hadn't heard that before. I talked with him a bit about all the different stuff that is listed on this forum about this issue, including the following:

Ridgid does not control info desimated on this forum (can't completely control what users note).
However, users note what they have been getting told about this drill/batteries, based on what Ridgid is telling them.
It's been 4 months since this drill was released - still no definitive answer on paper.
Multiple sources previously telling us 2.9 Ah - customer support, tech support, Ridgid reps, in-store staff, repair centers, etc., etc.
Lot of people based buying this drill on the 2.9 Ah rating, and probably wouldn't have if it had been released that it was only with 1.5 Ah batteries - and/or that a lot would be returning them if this is the case.
2.9 Ah rating given for past 4 months - within that timeline, these drills are selling out at stores, and hard to get in, great sale stats - would they have done that good had it been divulged that they were only 1.5 Ah? (Seems a bit too much of a conspiracy-theorist wild tangent to accuse of that, but it's a thought, nonetheless).In talking with Larry, I even explained to him that this very morning, on my initial phone call in, I was given both different ratings as answers. He sounded a bit taken aback at that, but I explained to him that this is exactly what has been going on for 4 months then - if I called this morning and was told 2.9, and then that was corrected only 30 seconds later to 1.5 Ah, then there is a lack of consistently within Ridgid about this issue, and is what is going to frustrate us consumers that much more.

Larry (who again, was great) then told me that he had already, before he called me back, sent off a few voicemails and e-mails to a bunch of people at Ridgid, including marketing and sales, as well as management and various product departments, to see what is being done to correct this, and/or what can be done. I also explained to Larry that aside from the average person who just walks in a HD and buys the drill because "it looks like a neat tool", there are hundreds or thousands of Ridgid users (on this forum or not) who based their decision on the Ah rating, and therefore the power, strength, and longevity of the battery (yes, I know there are other factors included in this, but the Ah is one of the big ones). I told him that you may have a quite a few nickels-and-dimes-worth of tools that people may/will be returning, due to this issue.

He told me he will be looking into this further, and giving me an update some time in the near future.

Frustrated - yes.
Unhappy with the marketing issues here - yes.
Pissed off at Ridgid over this boondoggle - yes.
Returning my drill for another type/set/style - don't know yet.
Just generally disappointed that this had to happen - definitely.

I'm still a Ridgid tool lover, no matter what. I can't deny that. But a tool is only as good as the battery it's running off of.

It just feels like I just saw my grade-school sweetheart go to the YMCA dance with another boy - baby, why you got to hurt me so bad??? :(

CanuckSARTech

[roadrashray]

As I have posted on another thread relating to this issue I have the Ridgid 18V LI drill and have found it to be a very adaquate performer. I am dissapointed to learn that the batteries are smaller than previously advertised. It is now evident why none of the packaging or supporting documentation that came with the Ridgid 18V LI drill kit identified the size of the battery. It seems reasonable that they were trying to cover up an embarassing situation.
I am happy enough with the drill that I will probably keep regardless of any action Ridgid might take to correct this user relations blunder. With that said I will have greater respect for Ridgid as a provider of quality tools if they would offer something to ammeliorate this situation. Providing all purchasers of the 18V LI Compact drill with two(2) additional 1.5Ah batteries wold be acceptable. Providing them with two 3Ah batteries would be better.

[Frankiarmz]

I would like to thank the members who pursued this issue and hope Ridgid wakes up and rises to the occasion. I don't want or need 1.5AH batteries, or misinformation. I want the 3.0 or higher AH battery that will power my Ridgid tools longer without changing batteries. I refuse to believe it would be a difficult process for Ridgid to design the 3.0AH lithium ion battery and charger. If they want to continue to offer the compact 1.5AH model fine, but give the consumers and people who invested in their tools the product they've been waiting for. I would rather not switch brands, I like my Ridgid 18volt tools, just give me the amps! I still don't understand why they allowed Ryobi to overtake them in this area? This is another example of a corporation being out of touch with the people who support them. It would not kill them to offer a greater selection of 18volt or max select tools and how about offering a LED flashlight? There is no need to ever change bulbs again and these LED flashlights run several times longer on a charge while providing equal or greater light. Ridgid could easily establish themselves as industry leaders with top AH batteries and a wider tool selection. Wake up Ridgid!:rolleyes:

[Josh]

Ok.. sorry for jumping into this discussion late. Where was the original source of the 2.9 rating? Was it somebody posting on the forum? A posting on another site? It isnt listed on the product information page. I may need to dig back into some of the older threads to see where this came up first.

Thanks for the help in tracking this down,

Josh

[Frankiarmz]

I don't know when the 2.9 number appeared on these boards, but a few days ago I posted the AH as 3.0 according to a Ridgid customer tech. I was corrected by another member who said the number was 2.9. I called customer support and was told 2.9AH. Then just a couple of days ago the number 1.5 was posted as the true AH of these batteries. I called customer support and talked to Theresa who confirmed the 1.5 number and said they were starting to get complaints. Big difference and big letdown. Big opportunity missed to get new customers looking for longer run times and keep faithful customers looking to improve the performace of their Ridgid tools.:(

[Orange Apron]

Hopefully Ridgid will wait about another month before coming out with anything new. My reasoning is selfish though. My birthday is Nov 23 (day after Turkey day, I can list my paypal e-mail address if anyone wishes to send a gift :p ) and I plan on getting the 18V Lithium Ion drill. I like the smaller weight and size of it, and even though I will be using it at work, I wont need the extra run time that a 2.9 would give me. Before I noticed the Ridgid, I was considering the smaller Makita. Unfortunately my partner at work has the Makita already and in 6 months has had 3 batteries die on him.

Anyways, if Ridgid does do something to correct the 1.5 ah maybe Home Depot will put the current (wrong) ones on clearance :D

[roadrashray]

Ok.. sorry for jumping into this discussion late. Where was the original source of the 2.9 rating? Was it somebody posting on the forum? A posting on another site? It isnt listed on the product information page. I may need to dig back into some of the older threads to see where this came up first.

Thanks for the help in tracking this down,

Josh
I don't know about the 2.9Ah source. I believed the 18V LI was going to be 3Ah because that is what is stated as the 18V LI battery on the outside of the Maxselect Impact tool and Jigsaw boxes. When I purchased the Ridgid 18V LI compact drill I assumed it was a 3Ah battery although strangley the battery size is not shown on the packaging, literature or battery. It seems very possible that Ridgid thought they were goingto provide a 3Ah battery and at some point realised they could only ship a 1.5Ah and tried to cover it up by not providing battery size info anywhere on the 18V LI compact drill.

[canucksartech]

Ok.. sorry for jumping into this discussion late. Where was the original source of the 2.9 rating? Was it somebody posting on the forum? A posting on another site? It isnt listed on the product information page. I may need to dig back into some of the older threads to see where this came up first.

Thanks for the help in tracking this down,

Josh

Josh,

I was the one who did the initial review of this tool, and I was also the first one (I believe) to list and confirm this battery as 2.9 Ah (I believe that previous to that, it was just specuation about the Ah). No, it isn't listed on the product information page anywhere (nor in the manual of the drill, nor on the box, not even on the batteries). Where myself, and others, have got this rating is from the following sources: multiple calls to Ridgid customer service (including the one this morning), multiple calls to Ridgid tech support, Ridgid area rep in store, HD staff in store, authorized repair centers, etc. It was something discussed quite heavily in a few of those threads, and no one from Ridgid came on to correct it (if it was indeed wrong), or to tell us otherwise.

It's kind of a kerfluffle that's been going on for 4 months, I guess. Like I said earlier in this thread, my call this morning to Ridgid customer service got two different answers, from two different people, with the first answer being 2.9 Ah.

No, there's no Ah rating "on paper" for us to see with anything tied to the product itself, our only other source is from 1-800-4-RIDGID, and we've all been getting told 2.9 Ah for months.

Josh, anything that you could also find out about this issue would be much appreciated. Please keep us in the know as much as possible with whatever you find out. Thanks.

[doubtingtom]

Ok.. sorry for jumping into this discussion late. Where was the original source of the 2.9 rating? Was it somebody posting on the forum? A posting on another site? It isnt listed on the product information page. I may need to dig back into some of the older threads to see where this came up first.

Thanks for the help in tracking this down,

Josh

Right on the bottom of the R883 Cordless Jigsaw box (purchased yesterday at HD) is a printed reference stating that the saw works with 18v and 24 3 AHr L-I batts. That statement may have some 'wiggle' room, but it certainly plays into the overall problem being vented here.

Tom B

[Disaster]

I'll return mine. I already have a couple lightweight drills....lighter and more compact than this one. I bought it mostly for the batteries and charger and the compatibility with my other Ridgid tools.

What I'd like to see is a real update to the Ridgid NiCds with the following features:

1. A charger that charges all batteries, 24 volt, 18 volt Lithium Ion and all other voltages of Lithium Ion and NiCd batteries.

2. A battery rated as well or better than the Max2.5Ah. 3Ah would be great.

3. Batteries and charger available as an upgrade kit so that I don't have to buy another set of tools just to go and hawk them on Ebay. Batteries available in 18 volt, 14.4 volt, 12 volt and 9.6 volt...to replace all the previous NiCd batteries.

I may even migrate away from Ridgid if this takes too long. I ended up buying a Panasonic 14.4 volt drill and driver set because I got tired of waiting for a comparable set of lightweight cordless tools from Ridgid and Makita didn't sell the drill and driver in a set so they were a bit more expensive (plus only 1.5Ah.)

Ideally I'd like a set of tools that are as interchangeable as possible. It would be great to only have to haul one charger with me. I keep a Ryobi set around, just for that reason, but a lot of the tools are just not up to snuff compared to the offerings from Ridgid and DeWalt.

[Frankiarmz]

Disaster, I agree with everything you said. I do not use my Ridgid tools for work, but I still want the upgrade and features of a 3.0 or higher AH lithium ion battery. Do I wait for Ridgid to bring to market such a product or just switch brands? Dewalt does make fine cordless tools and if they come out with a 18 volt lithium ion battery with that higher AH rating that will fit their current 18 volt nicad tools I think they will sell a lot of batteries, chargers and tools. Can't understand why Ridgid would allow Ryobi or Dewalt to get such an edge on them? Is it really such a big deal to design these higher AH batteries and a charger for them? Dewalt may be the answer.:rolleyes:

[Hottrodd]

I just picked up a 3pc max select tool kit from HD. It was on sale for $269.
Anyways, it came with the 24V batteries and according to the info they are 3.0Ah. I would hope that they could do this with the 18v as well. Misleading their customers is not a good way to introduce a new line of tools.

[doubtingtom]

Based on just a few 'long' days working with the 24v Hammer Drill, I would find it very hard to switch to a lighter class tool. Granted, it is a hefty guy but the batts last forever and the power is impressive ... actually must learn to be a bit careful. I failed to drill a TapCon hole deep enough and when the screw (1 3/4 ") bottomed, the drill twisted the head off. I'm learning to gauge the clutch settings now and I really like this tool! When the promotional Impact Driver arrives, I can't think of a more versatile combo.

** You did see the free Impact Driver promotional offer .... right ??
Tom B

[erngum]

I can see the frustration over the 18v lithium batteries. There was obviously miscommunication somewhere and the wrong information got out. Thats a huge mistake on Ridgids part which needs to be addressed. But I don't think there will be a huge response to the issue, because they are not going rush to perform damage control for something they probably do not consider a mistake (the 1.5 ah battery).

Aside from the amateurish lack of accurate information from generally expected sources such as oh, I don't know... THE BOX IT COMES IN, or even, and this may be a stretch, THE MANUAL. I don't see anything wrong with the compact drill having a 1.5 ah battery. Someone mentioned the Ryobi 2.4 ah battery. But the new Ryobi is not marketed as a "compact" battery.

The 1.5 ah rating of the Ridgid compact drill is still consistent with other brands who market a "compact" drill. Panasonic has 14.4v lithium w/3.0 amps. But it has less than 400 in/lbs. torque and costs around $300.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-14-4V-Lithium-Ion-Drill-Driver/dp/B000REQKGC/ref=sr_1_1/002-2488976-6884840?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1191890175&sr=1-1

Even Milwaukee's upcoming compact 18v is rated at 1.4 ah.

http://toolmonger.com/2007/09/05/preview-milwaukees-compact-18v-drill/

Look at the Milwaukee battery, very similar to the Ridgid (Insert 1.4 ah rumor here:D).

I bought the Ridgid compact, and the Makita compact at the same time because I could not decide on which to buy. I liked the Ridgid and was impressed with it. But I liked the Makita more so I kept it and returned the Ridgid. Out of all of the 18v lithium compact offerings, I still think the Ridgid is among the better choices for power and price.

I'm still rooting for Ridgid as a company, because overall they do a good job and I'll surely buy more Ridgid tools in the future (12 foot power cords!). The bottom line is that my money goes to the company that has a product that fits my needs. If I feel slighted by a company, I complain with my feet and just walk away with my money in my pocket. Much the way I did when HD could not figure out how to get a hold of the new Ridgid planer. Sears got my money that time, and more of it at that.:confused:
Ern

[Disaster]

Someone mentioned the Ryobi 2.4 ah battery. But the new Ryobi is not marketed as a "compact" battery.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ryobi drill with its "regular" battery doesn't weigh about the same as the Ridgid.

The 1.5 ah rating of the Ridgid compact drill is still consistent with other brands who market a "compact" drill. Panasonic has 14.4v lithium w/3.0 amps. But it has less than 400 in/lbs. torque and costs around $300.


Yes, the Panasonic is more expensive. Guess what, they still sell well because they have a tremendous reputation in the field.

How about comparing it to the Makita which is only $20 more...and is a better known brand. Same battery but much lighter and more compact drill.

But I liked the Makita more so I kept it and returned the Ridgid.

There you go, you were willing to spend a little more for the Makita because it is a better "compact" drill.

I'm still rooting for Ridgid as a company, because overall they do a good job...

I am too...and not just because I already have a bunch of dollars invested in Ridgid tools and would like them to be around in case I need service in the future. I'm rooting for them because competition is good for the industry.

If I feel slighted by a company, I complain with my feet and just walk away with my money in my pocket.

That is why I'll return the drill. Unfortunately, it isn't the first time I've been "slighted" by Ridgid. I'm still waiting for my free MaxSelect jigsaw that I registered for almost a year ago.

Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me.

I'm hoping the new powers at Ridgid will make some real changes with regards to service and selection. If not, I may move to another brand and reluctantly get rid of my Ridgid tools.

I really like my Panasonic drill and driver....but Panasonic is expensive, like you said. I've always had a soft spot for Bosch but they are expensive and sometimes they make some odd ergonomic decisions. DeWalt has a huge line of 18 volt tools just waiting for their Lithium Ions to make them better. Hitachi is good...but I've not been impressed with their durability. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some newcomers enter the field. LG tools? Samsung?

[canucksartech]

I haven't heard anything new, so I just called Larry Snyder back. I asked him about what is being done to correct this. I was told that all he could do was what he has been doing - sending out e-mails to all Ridgid staff, to make sure that misinformation is no longer being spread, and that staff knows that these batteries are rated at 1.5 Ah and not 2.9 Ah.

I asked him, so, there's nothing else that Ridgid is willing to do to correct this situation with the various consumers, like myself, that bought this drill on the auspices that the batteries were 2.9 Ah. He told me, "Man to man, if I sent you out an additional battery, say, to try to make up for that, then where does it stop? What happens with all the other tool owners that will come out of the woodwork and say they were misinformed, when they might not have known or cared one way or another, just to get a free extra battery or an upgraded set of batteries? Where would it end?"

So, Ridgid is therefore doing nothing to correct their mistake initiated by their staff. THEY told us 2.9, not 1.5 - it's THEIR mistake, so fix it!!!

Maybe that's why they haven't put a number to paper anywhere - that way, it plausible deniability, and they can't be forced to do anything. The sad thing is that no one should need to force them to do something - they should man up and step to the plate. It wouldn't be hard for them to know who this has directly affected - simply look on this forum, and look who has registered their tools, and who has called in about this issue. If you can stand behind your tools with a 3 year warranty and a lifetime service agreement, you can stand behind them enough to make up for this screwup.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Frankiarmz]

Spoken like a true man of good character. Ridgid does not need to send out free batteries, but there are fixes to be made. Probably most of the people who purchased these compact drills are doing just fine with them. Those who were mislead and need the higher amp hour battery should have options available to them by Ridgid without a fight. Instead of waiting for dissatisfied 1.5AH lithium owners to come out of the wood work, step up and get the 3.0 or higher AH lithiums into the stores! Publicize a two or three month trade in for current 1.5v AH owners. Ridgid must realize they will sell far more higher AH lithiums and chargers for 12, 14.4, 18 and 24 volt tools than any inconvenience or loss an exchange will cause. This situation is not as bad as the Car manufacturer who knows the brakes on a new model are defective but rather than recall, they will live with the accidents and deaths, but it shows the spirit in which they do business. They need to step up their game or leave the field. New players have more to offer and that's too bad considering Ridgid could turn this around. What are they waiting for????:mad:

[rprokopiak]

I have read the previous posts. I was thinking about purchacing the r86006. Aside from the 1.5Ah/2.9Ah issue, How well does the drill perform? Would this drill be good for the do it yourself homeowner that I am? Or Is it not up to the tasks for home use? Also, I have never owned a Ridgid tool , so the LIFETIME GUARENTEE would factor into a possible purchace. For real? Thanks for any info. Rich

[Disaster]

I have read the previous posts. I was thinking about purchacing the r86006. Aside from the 1.5Ah/2.9Ah issue, How well does the drill perform? Would this drill be good for the do it yourself homeowner that I am? Or Is it not up to the tasks for home use? Also, I have never owned a Ridgid tool , so the LIFETIME GUARENTEE would factor into a possible purchace. For real? Thanks for any info. Rich

It is a decent drill but it isn't as great a value as other Ridgid tools sometimes are...especially when on sale.

The Makita drill, that was mentioned here, is lighter and more compact and only $20 dollars more.

Ryobi's new lithium Ion drill is $10 cheaper, comes with 2.4Ah batteries and a flashlight. Time will tell if it is as rugged as Ridgid's. Typically Ryobis are not quite as tough as pro models like DeWalt and Ridgid. The previous generation of Ryobi Torque IV drills were reported to have clutch failures in heavy use (though mine never failed.)

Also, because it is a new drill, long term reliability is an unknown, but it is backed by Ridgid's LSA...as are its batteries.

[Disaster]

FYI, I just returned my Ridgid Compact Lithium drill to HD. Couldn't locate the receipt but it has been less than 90 days so they could look it up. I'll wait to see what Ridgid offers in larger battery.

I want to stress that I don't think it is a bad product, just not suited for my needs as I already have more than one "compact" drill. What I really need are Lithium replacement batteries for my 18 volt toolset.

[Frankiarmz]

Disaster, I could not agree with you more. I am not going to buy another brand at this time because I like my Ridgid 18 volt tools. I am not going to buy the Ridgid 24 volt lithium because I don't need another set of basically the same tools just to get a 3.0 AH lithium battery! According to Josh, Ridgid will be offering the higher AH 18 volt lithium and hopefully it will be availabe in either single or double battery pack with charger. I'm sure plenty of folks who currently own either the older 18volt tools or the max select would purchase the higher AH lithiums. I'm not sure what I would do if such a battery was only offered in a kit? Guess if I wanted the batteries and charger that bad, I'd go the E-Bay route with the extra tools. :cool:

[Disaster]

I won't be buying one in a single pack. I don't just want one battery. Also, it probably won't be the best deal that way.

Ryobi's Lithium charger and single battery pack is $110 dollars at HD, yet the drill, light, charger and two batteries was only $160. It was a no brainer to get the drill.

[Frankiarmz]

That is a great deal for sure. I checked the Ryobi site and 11/01 is the date it will be available in Home Depot. I would not expect a drill of the quality of my Ridgid 18 volt hammerdrill at that price or from Ryobi, but I'm sure it will be fine to do light jobs here and there without having to pull out the big guns. I really could care less about having another drill and flashlight but at that price for the charger and two lithium batteries, why not? On 11/01, I will be at Home Depot to buy this item.:D

[Disaster]

That is a great deal for sure. I checked the Ryobi site and 11/01 is the date it will be available in Home Depot.

The drill has been available in local HD's around here for over a week. Just noticed the battery kit tonight when I was returning the Ridgid drill. Was disappointed to see it at $110 vs. the $100 it was originally reported to sell for. I'd have paid $140 for a two battery kit without the drill and flashlight as I have no need for either. Having said that, I like the drill better than the one I have now so I will probably sell my older drill on Ebay and keep this one.

[erngum]

so I will probably sell my older drill on Ebay and keep this one.

Disaster,
Did you ever try the Ryobi P220 hammer drill (discontinued)? That is an awesome drill for $49. 3 speeds, 480 in/lbs. That was the drill that really turned me onto Ryobi a few years ago. I've been buying the Makita/Bosch lithium lately, but I really hate to let that drill go. It is still my only hammer drill.

Ern

[Disaster]

Yeah...was lucky to get one when it was being discontinued at HD for $35.

[undertheradar]

You guys are killing me. Look here's where the 2.9/3.0 Ah rating comes from:

A. If you crack open the battery, it's got 3.0Ah (allegedly) cells inside made by E-One Moli (of Canada). These are the same 3.0Ah cells that are in the Milwaukee 18 and 28V li-ion tools.

B. Thus, one might think that since E-One Moli rates its cells at 3.0 Ah, that calling the battery pack a3.0 or 2.9Ah pack is reasonable, which it would be... in theory.

C. Read up on the Peukert effect in wikipedia or elsewhere. An Ah rating is based upon a VERY slow discharge. The higher the current drawn, the lower the Ah rating delivered. It just so happens that E-One Moli cells have an exceptionally rapid decrease in delivered Ah at high rates... thus, even if it's rated at 3.0Ah at very very very slow rates, it may only deliver 1.5Ah (or less) at very high current draws.

D. And, before anyone gets all speculative: yes, the A123 cells deliver very consistent Ah as a function of current draw... HOWEVER, they have an incredible amount of voltage sag, so while the Ah delivered stays the same, the overall energy drops dramatically.

E. The summary of all this? What one really needs to know is not the Ah rating, or the Ah delivered, but the Wh delivered at the power draw of interest. Good luck getting that... everyone hides it, as the results aren't pretty.

[Disaster]

You guys are killing me. Look here's where the 2.9/3.0 Ah rating comes from:

A. If you crack open the battery, it's got 3.0Ah (allegedly) cells inside made by E-One Moli (of Canada). These are the same 3.0Ah cells that are in the Milwaukee 18 and 28V li-ion tools.

B. Thus, one might think that since E-One Moli rates its cells at 3.0 Ah, that calling the battery pack a3.0 or 2.9Ah pack is reasonable, which it would be... in theory.

C. Read up on the Peukert effect in wikipedia or elsewhere. An Ah rating is based upon a VERY slow discharge. The higher the current drawn, the lower the Ah rating delivered. It just so happens that E-One Moli cells have an exceptionally rapid decrease in delivered Ah at high rates... thus, even if it's rated at 3.0Ah at very very very slow rates, it may only deliver 1.5Ah (or less) at very high current draws.

D. And, before anyone gets all speculative: yes, the A123 cells deliver very consistent Ah as a function of current draw... HOWEVER, they have an incredible amount of voltage sag, so while the Ah delivered stays the same, the overall energy drops dramatically.

E. The summary of all this? What one really needs to know is not the Ah rating, or the Ah delivered, but the Wh delivered at the power draw of interest. Good luck getting that... everyone hides it, as the results aren't pretty.

A. The Lithium Manganese cells come in 2.9Ah and 1.5Ah. The 1.5Ah are smaller...hence the lower profile battery pack.

B. Agreed.

C. Pretty much all cells deliver less Ah at higher current draws. The question is, at the average draw used in the tool, how much Ah does the cell have. This chart, produced by an RC fan testing lots of cells, shows very little loss from Emoli cells from 1 amp to 20 amps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/Emoli26700atVariousRates.gif

D. All cells sag in voltage. Don't have an A123 graph right now but I are not much worse than the NiCads before them. Alkalines, by the way are horrible relative to voltage sag at high currents. That is why NiCads perform so much better in high current draw devices.

E. Agreed.

Like you say, there are different Lithium chemistries employed and we will definitely see even more refinement and tuning in the future.

The Molicells, used in Milwaukee tools (and supposedly Ridgid) use Manganese as a substitute for Cobalt. This makes them a little more stable but they still can have thermal runaway so the cells require current protection.

The A123 cells, with their Iron Phosphate, are more thermally stable and don't require current limit protection. The tradeoff however is energy density, they weigh more and deliver lower voltage per cell. The A123 cells have other advantages too. They can be drawn down to a lower voltage and still recover. I've seen tests where the A123's were pushed to very low voltage levels and still recovered. This suggests that perhaps they do not even require a voltage protection circuit let alone a current protection one. They are very robust and therefore very good for tough environments like tool use.

A couple interesting links on lithium batteries.

Tests by a battery/flashlight geek.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117117

Good overall article on Lithium cells, with lots of info about A123 (DeWalt.)

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/5490

[Disaster]

If you are a tool geek you might find the following info interesting. Otherwise, skip it and just enjoy your tools.

Watts, in electrical power storage, is simply Volts multiplied by Current multiplied by Time.

Watts=Voltage*Current*Time

Since the voltage is known, batteries typically just give the time multiplied by the current (in amps), hence the Amp Hour rating. Unfortunately, this wasn't necessarily calculated at the same amperage you might use. Typically, it is much lower. At higher currents the batteries are less efficient and will deliver less total amps and voltage (voltage sag.)

Voltage (also known as potential) is a big part of the equation. Therefore a 36 volt 3Ah battery has twice as much total power as a 18 volt 3Ah battery. Ridgid's 24 volt 3 Ah cells have 30% more power than DeWalts 18 volt Nano cells.

By the way, if we assume Ridgid's 18 volt cells are the same as Milwaukee, then the packs actually run closer to 20 volts. They have about 10% more power than a similarly rated 18 volt battery would.

Lithium's voltage curve (voltage vs. time) is even flatter than NiCad. That means Lithium tools will deliver more power than their voltage equivalent NiCad counterparts towards the end of their charge.

If you look at the higher power drain situation in tools, you can see instances where you might drain a 3Ah battery in just 8-10 minutes. If you divide the 3Ah by .13 (8 minutes converted to hours) you get about 20 amps. Under heavy load conditions...say nearly stalling a drill, you might see 3 times that much...but only for very short periods.

What has been a challenge for battery manufacturers, is building Lithium batteries that can be charged and discharged at high rates. The batteries in laptops and cell phones need to supply only low currents. You are talking about draining a 4Ah battery in 3 or 4 hours...typically they draw less than 1 amp.

Which leads to another battery term the "C" rating. This is related to how fast the battery can charge or discharge. This is pretty simple to calculate. It is the maximum current, in amps, divided by the Ahs of the battery. So a 2.9Ah battery that could deliver 2.9 amps would have a 1C rating. 20 amps would be 7C.

Like most battery technologies, lithiums can discharge safely, at much higher rates than they can charge. When pushed over their C ratings, either charging or discharging, Lithiums will experience what is called thermal runaway. They temperature inside them takes off and they burn up. In the older technology lithiums, like used in most electronic devices like laptops, this can happen so quickly that it can cause explosions and fires.

Typical Lithium charge rates are between 1 and 3C. I've seen discharge rates as high as 20C.

I'm not sure what technology Makita is using but Milwaukee and Ridgid are using the Lithium Manganese Molicels and DeWalt is using the Iron Phosphate A123's.

The Molicel is can deliver much higher amperages than older technologies but still can experience thermal runaway (though it isn't nearly as explosive) and must still be protected from going below a minimum voltage. This is done with a protection circuit built into the battery.

I am curious what type of protection DeWalt uses with their Nano A123 cells because they are much more robust and require less.

In RC applications people have used A123's like NiCads, with no protection and they have survived. RC's are probably the most demanding test you could devise for batteries. They will run cars as flat out as the electronics will allow, sometimes drawing upwards of 60 to 100 amps and completely draining a battery in 3 minutes. 20C is not uncommon.

One other piece of information to muddy the works. DeWalt and Milwaukee use their batteries in series. Bosch and Makita use two sets in parallel. This reduces the current to individual cells in half, but adds to the complexity, and weight.

P.S. This is info is based on my own experience and research with RC racing. Some new technologies or information might be available since I was last involved in it a year ago. The technology is moving fast and RC's are at the bleeding edge.

[undertheradar]

A. The Lithium Manganese cells come in 2.9Ah and 1.5Ah. The 1.5Ah are smaller...hence the lower profile battery pack.



Ack, sorry, my fault. I had opened a 24V Ridgid battery, and it had the 3Ah cells, thus I made the erroneous assumption that the 18V packs had the same cells. My fault. If the 18V's have the 1.5Ah molicells, then those are the same as what's in the Ryobi Li-ion packs (which DEFINITELY have the 1.5Ah Moli's. Perhaps they made the mistake on their 18V pack rating the same way I did; assuming that they were the same cells as those in their 24V pack...

As noted by the last poster, in the end, it's not about the Ah, it's about the Wh. And that has a huge dependency on voltage. In that graph that you show, if the voltage sags by 30%, even if you have the same Ah at the end, then your total runtime is reduced by ~30%. Ah ratings are very, very misleading for all sorts of reasons.

They're also misleading at higher "rates" because doing constant current discharges is not what a tool want... a tool wants constant power (current * voltage). Without the voltage component, doing a constant current discharge treats a cell more gently than it should as the voltage starts to sag. The only true way to get at runtimes vs. performance is the Ragone chart-type of data, where Wh/Kg (or liter) is plotted vs. W/Kg (or liter). Then one can truly know how much energy you'll get out of a cell at a constant power.

**Constant power (W) (or pulsed power, really) is the best way to test end use performance

**Wh is the way to measure the "value" of what the cell delivers; Ah is way too misleading and unreliable


PS- Thanks for letting me know about what's in the 18V pack; I need some more of those and the Ryobi batteries are a pain to get still.

[Disaster]

This is all very interesting...to you and me at least. :-)

For the record does Ryobi use a parallel configuration in their claimed 2.4Ah cells?

On the Ryobi forum someone tested their battery pack against their 1.7Ah NiCad and got almost twice the runtime....13 minutes vs. 7 and 1/2. This was in the cordless blower which is a pretty big energy hog.

[undertheradar]

Ryobi is a 5S2P (five in series, 2 parallel strings), with the 18650 Molicells. The cell, as you point out, is allegedly 1.5Ah, but am guessing they downgrade it as they realize that it's not gonna give a total of 3Ah in any power tool situation...

[Disaster]

Speaking of taking apart batteries and cheating ratings, I was surprised to find, a few years ago, that manufacturers had somewhere along the way from 14.4v to 18v packs, cheated customers out of one cell.

The nominal voltage of NiCads was rated at 1.2 volts....the flat part of the working curve where they will spend most of their time. A 9.6 volt pack had 8 batteries. A 12 volt pack had 10. I was surprised to find only 14 batteries in Ryobi's 18 volt pack. Apparently they are using the fact that fully charged, the batteries have closer to 1.4 volts to cheat their ratings. Interestingly, Sears 19.2 volt tools actually have the right amount of batteries for a true 18 volt tool.

[Disaster]

Come to think of it, this gives Ryobi's new 20 volt pack an even great advantage over their old NiCad packs which would certainly account for some of the increased runtime.

20x2.4=48
16.8x1.7=29

That is a 65% increase not including efficiency improvements from running at the higher voltage.

[undertheradar]

Speaking of taking apart batteries and cheating ratings, .... Apparently they are using the fact that fully charged, the batteries have closer to 1.4 volts to cheat their ratings. Interestingly, Sears 19.2 volt tools actually have the right amount of batteries for a true 18 volt tool.


Lots of that going on. The Craftsman 20V Li-ion battery is also a 5S2P, and the same pack internals as Metabo's 18V pack. Lies, lies, lies. Then there's the Bosch and Dewalt 36V lines. Each use 10 cells to get to 36V, but A123 cells have a lower starting voltage, so the Bosch packs start out at almost 40V full, whereas the Dewalt packs only put out 36V full.

And, of course, it's also how you build your tool. Highly recommend reading:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1489&articleID=571677

Funny how A123 and Dewalt claim their 36V line gives corded performance, but the pros rate their 36V saw SEVENTH out of eleven in performance. It gets beat by some 18V lines. If the A123 cells are that great under stress, how come that saw came in seventh for number of cuts?

[Disaster]

Thanks for the link. Looks like the while the DeWalt came out seventh in 2x4 cuts per charge, it came in 1st in 2x10 cut time and 2nd in LSL cut time. Lot of power...not great runtime.

Too bad they didn't rate the Milwaukee V18 saw. I'm curious how it compares to the other TTI designed and built 20v saw which did pretty poorly...the Craftsman.

[undertheradar]

Thanks for the link. Looks like the while the DeWalt came out seventh in 2x4 cuts per charge, it came in 1st in 2x10 cut time and 2nd in LSL cut time. Lot of power...not great runtime.

Too bad they didn't rate the Milwaukee V18 saw. I'm curious how it compares to the other TTI designed and built 20v saw which did pretty poorly...the Craftsman.


Well, I don't know if the Dewalt had great power per se: it's got a 7.25 blade, so that helps it on speed, but they noted that it stalled quite a bit, probably also due to the 7.25 blade... Stalling ain't a great sign of power, regardless of how fast it was. Sure, in theory it should have more power than an 18V, but overall, it didn't look all that impressive.

You SURE the Craftsman 20V is made by TTI? I know TTI has done other Craftsman stuff, but didn't know if they made that saw/battery. If they did, then that means they also make the Metabo battery. And, that would mean that they're building some tools (Craftsman and Metabo) with non-E-one moli cells... which is odd.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

Have a read of the article again and have a look specifically at page 3. The DeWalt comes in 7th only in runtime, but comes in both 1st and 2nd in the power tests (cutting a 2x10 and cutting LSL respectively).

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1489&articleID=571677&artnum=3

I don't know if this is what you meant, but when you're criticizing "corded performance", let's talk about the actual cutting performance, not the number of cuts per charge which is another matter.

Milwaukee and Bosch have good saws, I'll give them that, but they are still stuck on a 6 1/2" blade. The DeWalt and Hilti can turn a real framing saw blade.

Lots of that going on. The Craftsman 20V Li-ion battery is also a 5S2P, and the same pack internals as Metabo's 18V pack. Lies, lies, lies. Then there's the Bosch and Dewalt 36V lines. Each use 10 cells to get to 36V, but A123 cells have a lower starting voltage, so the Bosch packs start out at almost 40V full, whereas the Dewalt packs only put out 36V full.

And, of course, it's also how you build your tool. Highly recommend reading:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1489&articleID=571677

Funny how A123 and Dewalt claim their 36V line gives corded performance, but the pros rate their 36V saw SEVENTH out of eleven in performance. It gets beat by some 18V lines. If the A123 cells are that great under stress, how come that saw came in seventh for number of cuts?

[Disaster]

You SURE the Craftsman 20V is made by TTI? I know TTI has done other Craftsman stuff, but didn't know if they made that saw/battery. If they did, then that means they also make the Metabo battery. And, that would mean that they're building some tools (Craftsman and Metabo) with non-E-one moli cells... which is odd.

I'd say about 95% sure.

There are very many similarities between the Craftsman 20v line and Ridgid's 24v tools. If I recall, the T-handle on the hammer drill was exactly the same...down to the mold lines.

TTI also makes the C3 lineup at Sears, which is barely changed at all from Ryobi's OnePlus.

Why do you say it means TTI is making the Metabo battery?

[undertheradar]

Opening a Metabo and Craftsman pack: the internals are identical, to include the cells, molded cell holders, and the circuit board. Dead identical. They are absolutely made by the same people.

Could it be that Craftsman went to someone else for the new battery/charger, but the tools are still made by TTI?

True, to a point, on the Dewalt, but also read comments here:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1490&articleID=571677&artnum=5

where it notes: "Even though it could cut super fast, its 7 1/4-inch blade didn't leave much reserve torque, the saw stalled fairly easily at times, and the battery had a short life." Stalling easily means poor power in my mind.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

I've used both Freud Diablo thin kerf and the blue Bosch 24T framing blades on mine and it's fully able to do such jobs as ripping through the entire length an 8' 4x4 PT post with the blade at full depth, gang cutting OSB pieces at full depth or ripping 2x10s along a curving line.

Well, I don't know if the Dewalt had great power per se: it's got a 7.25 blade, so that helps it on speed, but they noted that it stalled quite a bit, probably also due to the 7.25 blade... Stalling ain't a great sign of power, regardless of how fast it was. Sure, in theory it should have more power than an 18V, but overall, it didn't look all that impressive.

[Disaster]

Could it be that Craftsman went to someone else for the new battery/charger, but the tools are still made by TTI?


Sure seems unlikely...unless they are outsourcing the electronics. Do you know who makes the battery cells inside the Craftsman. I always assumed they were the same as Ridgid, minus one cell...since the tool was also made by TTI.

I stumbled on a guide, it is on the net somewhere, that referenced who was the actual manufacturer of a Sears item by the part number. Can't find it now, and, if I recall it changed over the years and wasn't up to date but if you find it, it might help.

[undertheradar]

Do you know who makes the battery cells inside the Craftsman.

Sanyo.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

Undertheradar - I've talked about this on here before, but the thing that happens with the 36V saw is that they impose a current limit on the battery. Essentially what happens is that under high overload situations, the battery monitors what's going and and prevents situations where high heat could damage the motor or cells due to extreme current. It's NOT anything to do with alleged high "sag" of A123's cells as you call it.

One problem I've found with the saw is that the blade guard is the biggest piece of crap I've ever experienced, but I've learned to work around it. It tends to stick on everything and can actually cause the saw to twist into the kerf, causing unnecessary strain on the motor. They really need to make a better blade guard.

where it notes: "Even though it could cut super fast, its 7 1/4-inch blade didn't leave much reserve torque, the saw stalled fairly easily at times, and the battery had a short life." Stalling easily means poor power in my mind.

[undertheradar]

Undertheradar - I've talked about this on here before, but the thing that happens with the 36V saw is that they impose a current limit on the battery. Essentially what happens is that under high overload situations, the battery monitors what's going and and prevents situations where high heat could damage the motor or cells due to extreme current. It's NOT anything to do with alleged high "sag" of A123's cells as you call it.

One problem I've found with the saw is that the blade guard is the biggest piece of crap I've ever experienced, but I've learned to work around it. It tends to stick on everything and can actually cause the saw to twist into the kerf, causing unnecessary strain on the motor. They really need to make a better blade guard.


I'll sort of buy that and sort of not. Granted, totally agree that they limit the current on the Dewalt, especially as they have to: they use 16 gauge wire for the main wires from the cells! Thinnest wires I've every seen coming off a battery pack. Still, if you look at some of A123's own data, or even the data on the Moli-cells above, they show (granted, on constant current plots), that the Ah/capacity varies negligibly from the low current number. But the voltage sags SEVERELY from that at lower current.

Perhaps you're correct in that it's the current limit in this battery that causes the saw to bind/stall more than the Bosch or the Hilti (**the latter of which I personally haven't tested; going by the review here). Regardless, the voltage sag does happen, rather severely in these cells at higher currents, per A123's own data.

I've instrumented a Dewalt pack and used that instrumented pack to do drilling and other tasks. A123 has claimed (see IEEE link above) that their batteries deliver 130Wh/kg in the tools. Drilling 1" holes in thick samples, the pack ACTUALLY delivers a tad under 25Wh/kg (yes, cell weight only). That's a severe difference in delivered energy between the nominal load energy (allegedly 130Wh/kg) and the actual delivered. The Ah comes out pretty similar, it's the voltage sag that explains the difference. Wh = Ah x V. If the Ah are nearly the same, and the Wh drops precipitously... that is voltage sag.

[Disaster]

with the 36V saw is that they impose a current limit on the battery. Essentially what happens is that under high overload situations, the battery monitors what's going and and prevents situations where high heat could damage the motor or cells due to extreme current. It's NOT anything to do with alleged high "sag" of A123's cells as you call it.

The A123 cells, can handle very high currents (vs. competitors Lithium Ion batteries) so it is more likely that they would limit current to protect the rest of the circuitry and motor. Power is voltage times current and to get the same power these lower voltage DC motors need to draw a lot more current than 110 volt AC motors do.

It is also possible that the voltage sag is confusing the electronics and causing them to switch off (to protect the battery.)

It would be hard to tell without removing the electronic circuit and testing it with various voltages and currents.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

So, have you used the DeWalt 36V circ saw?

I'll sort of buy that and sort of not. Granted, totally agree that they limit the current on the Dewalt, especially as they have to: they use 16 gauge wire for the main wires from the cells! Thinnest wires I've every seen coming off a battery pack. Still, if you look at some of A123's own data, or even the data on the Moli-cells above, they show (granted, on constant current plots), that the Ah/capacity varies negligibly from the low current number. But the voltage sags SEVERELY from that at lower current.

Perhaps you're correct in that it's the current limit in this battery that causes the saw to bind/stall more than the Bosch or the Hilti (**the latter of which I personally haven't tested; going by the review here). Regardless, the voltage sag does happen, rather severely in these cells at higher currents, per A123's own data.

I've instrumented a Dewalt pack and used that instrumented pack to do drilling and other tasks. A123 has claimed (see IEEE link above) that their batteries deliver 130Wh/kg in the tools. Drilling 1" holes in thick samples, the pack ACTUALLY delivers a tad under 25Wh/kg (yes, cell weight only). That's a severe difference in delivered energy between the nominal load energy (allegedly 130Wh/kg) and the actual delivered. The Ah comes out pretty similar, it's the voltage sag that explains the difference. Wh = Ah x V. If the Ah are nearly the same, and the Wh drops precipitously... that is voltage sag.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

Anything's possible, but I don't think it's an unintentional mistake or anything to do with voltage "sag" accidentally triggering anything. If it were a design mistake (or if this were seriously a user issue) it would probably be be "corrected" by now.

But as I said earlier, I don't really find that there's a major blade bind or power issue to begin with, at least nothing near the extent that they seem to indicate in this review where it's the first thing out of the gate and makes it sound like the saw is useless. I don't know, maybe it's the blades I use are very good, or I just happen to have a so-called golden unit. But then again if this circular saw were wimpy and lacking in power in a really bad way, then the REAL consumer reviews on Amazon (let's use them as an example) would be extremely negative, which they are not. Most feedback I've seen so far on it is very positive.

The A123 cells, can handle very high currents (vs. competitors Lithium Ion batteries) so it is more likely that they would limit current to protect the rest of the circuitry and motor. Power is voltage times current and to get the same power these lower voltage DC motors need to draw a lot more current than 110 volt AC motors do.

It is also possible that the voltage sag is confusing the electronics and causing them to switch off (to protect the battery.)

It would be hard to tell without removing the electronic circuit and testing it with various voltages and currents.

[Disaster]

I'll sort of buy that and sort of not. Granted, totally agree that they limit the current on the Dewalt, especially as they have to: they use 16 gauge wire for the main wires from the cells! Thinnest wires I've every seen coming off a battery pack.

I too was amazed how how tiny the wires were in tool battery packs considering that people lean toward 14 or 12...sometimes even 10 gauge wiring in RC's and tools have much bigger motors. When you say 16 gauge was the thinnest you've seen, are you just talking the Lithium packs because I thought I recalled the wiring in Ryobi's NiCad packs (and Sears C3) being even smaller...like 18 or 20.

I suspect, based on battery drain times, even with big motors tools, tools don't draw the currents we see in RC....at least not for the sustained per periods. Also, RC racers are much more concerned with getting the last .001% of efficiency out of their powertrains. They want the lower resistance of the larger wire.

Here is an interesting chart with recommended wire sizes.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

I don't understand the "power transmission" recommendation....perhaps that assumes continuous draw at that current and it is designed to stay cool. That would explain the hugely conservative number.

[Disaster]

Just did a quick calculation using their calculator at the bottom of the page. At 30 amps, assuming about 1 foot of total wiring, and the voltages we are talking about you get about a .25 volt drop. If you switch to 12 gauge that drops to .098. That is about 8 watts of wasted power or 25 btu's of generated heat for 16 gauge wiring vs. 3 watts wasted or 9 btu's of heat for 12 gauge. If you push it to 100 amps you get 83 watts vs. 33.

[Disaster]

I stumbled on a guide, it is on the net somewhere, that referenced who was the actual manufacturer of a Sears item by the part number. Can't find it now, and, if I recall it changed over the years and wasn't up to date but if you find it, it might help.

Found the guide while looking for something else.

http://www.professional-power-tool-guide.com/Craftsman-Sears-Manufacturing-Source-Code.htm

001 Stevens
002 Lemont Industries
071 Agri-Fab Corp
093 Ametek
002 Lemont Industries
101 Atlas Press Co.
102 Walker Turner
103 Sarlo Power Mower Inc.
106 Whirlpool
108 Covel Mfg. Co.
109 AA Engineering
110 Whirlpool
111 Watson Mfg Co.
112 Parks Tool Co. (Woodworking equipment)
113 Emerson Electric Co.
114 Pioneer Gen-E-Motor
115 Rixon
116 Matsushita
119 Frigidaire
121 Dille & McGuire
122 Blair Mfg.
123 Yard-Man
128 E.T. Rugg
129 Mono Mfg. Co
131 Rally/Roper Lawn (American Yard Prod.)
133 American Yard Products
135 Skil/Bosch
136 Toro Mfg. Co
137 Rexon
139 Chamberlain
143 Tecumseh (Lauson Power Prod. Co.)
144 Trane
145 Country Manufacturing
147 Village Blacksmith (Div. of McGraw Edison)
149 Amt
150 White Consolidated
153 State Industries
155 Preway
160 Wisconsin Magneto
161 Nakajima
171 Vermont American
174 Caloric
175 Bissell
176 Murata
180 Lambert Corp.
187 White Consolidated
190 Pioneer
198 Whirlpool
202 Gannon Mfg. Co.
204 Iona
214 Bissell
216 Phonemate
217 Eska Outboards
219 MTD
222 Panasonic Video/Audio
225 Outboard by Chrysler/Force
233 Broan
234 Beard-Poulon & Lazy Boy
235 Ingersoll Rand
241 Fimco
247 MTD-Modern Tool and Die (not MID)
250 J.I. Case
253 Gibson (now Frigidare)
256 Emerson Electric
257 Allegretti & Co. & Paramount
264 Emerson Electric
268 Brother International
271 Kioritz Corp. - Echo
274 RCA
278 GE
281 Electro-Aire
283 Thomas Industries
289 Sharp
291 American Lawn Mower
292 Lennox
294 Tunturi
302 IBM
304 Funai
306 Belsaw
312 GTE
315 Ryan
316 Ryobi
317 Makita
319 Hand Tools International
329 Inventa
330 Apple
328 McLane
329 Ametek
334 Commodore
335 Amana
336 Electrolux
340 Necchi
342 York
351 Colovos Co.
253 White Consolidated
355 Roper Outdoor
358 Beaird - Poulan, Inc.
359 Bolens Products Div.
362 General Electric
363 General Electric
365 US Lawn
366 Koss Eletronics
367 AT&T
372 Zeus Generator Co.
374 Diversified Products
378 Omark (Oregon)
380 Moto-Mower, Inc./Subsidiary of Dura Corp.
385 Jamac
387 White Rodgers
390 King-O-Lawn
401 Bissell
410 John Bean Food Mach. & Chem.
415 Char Broil
417 Stover Engine Works
426 Parker Sweeper
445 Melmer
452 AT&T
457 Code-A-Phone
459 Technics
464 GE
471 Bionaire
472 Dremel
473 Quincy Compressor
474 Sony
476 Coleman
480 Bose
484 Airtemp
486 Agri-Fab
490 Indiana Steel
498 Didier Mfg. Co.
500 Briggs & Stratton Corp.
502 Murray Ohio
509 Payne
517 Homelite/Jacobsen
521 E Z Rake Co.
523 MGM Technology
534 Clausing Lathe (Former Atlas Press Co.)
536 Western Tool & Stamping (Before AMF Lawn & Garden Div.)
538 AMF and or Murray
549 Midwest Ind
552 Cobra
562 Toshiba
564 Sanyo
565 Sanyo
566 Packard Bell
568 Panasonic
572 Dremel
575 Sharp
576 D & M (now Frigidaire)
580 Generac Corporation
582 Clinton Engine Co.
583 Remington/Desa
586 Panasonic Office Equip.
587 White Consolidated
596 Amana
604 Digital Equipment Co.
610 Ohio Steel Fabrication
613 Consolidated Technologies
619 Arps Corp.
620 Enviro-Research
621 Bryant
622 Kelvinator
625 Ecodyne
626 Magnavox (Philips)
628 White Consolidated
629 Jenn-Air
636 Echo
639 King-O-Lawn
640 Cerwin Vega
647 Roper
651 O.M.C. Dist. (also Standard Eng.)
654 Mott
663 Air Cap Industries
665 Whirlpool
666 Kitchenaid
668 Echowater
678 Vac Appliances, LTD
680 Generac
683 Philco (Italy)
704 Royal
705 Canon
716 H.H.Scott/Emerson
719 Tappan
721 LG Electronics
723 Yamaha
733 Fairbanks Morse
739 Onan
745 0 & R Engines
747 Litton
757 Brinly-Hardy Co., Inc.
758 Emerson Electric
761 Whirlpool
767 Marvel
768 Technics (Matsushita)
769 Mercury Clutch Division
773 Marantz
775 Johnson
778 Comet Industries
785 General Power (Magna America Corp.)
789 DefiAnce
790 Frigid Ire
791 Tappan
793 Ford
798 Speed King
802 Baker Mfg Co.
809 AMF
815 Daewoo
831 Welso Inc/U.T.S.
832 Xerox
835 Roper
840 Friedrich
842 Haban Mfg.
846 Epson
850 Whirlpool (Chambers?)
854 White Farm Equipment Corp. (formerly Oliver
855 ILG
860 Eureka Company
864 Zenith
867 Climette
871 Smith Corona
879 Rheem/Rudd
900 Black and Decker
911 General Electric
917 Roper Corp. (American Yard Prod.
919 DeVilbiss
922 Original Tractor Cab Co.
923 Hewlett Packard
934 Century Mfg Co.
937 Sunbeam (now Air Cap Ind.)
950 Laser (V-TECH)
960 Caloric
973 Ryobi
987 Troy Bilt/Garden Way
988 Kubota
989 McCullogh
990 Ford
991 Lawnboy
2018 Furnas Electric (Reversing Switch)
7075 Prestolite Battery
7287 Emerson Electric
7296 Emerson Electric

Hand Tools - Danaher (before 1994 it was Stanley)

[Frankiarmz]

Disaster,useful bit of information thanks. Now that I know Roper made my Sears Lawn Tractor maybe I can get a drive belt from one of their distributors and not have to pay $40.00 to Sears again. I'll be saving this link you provided.;)

[Disaster]

Disaster,useful bit of information thanks. Now that I know Roper made my Sears Lawn Tractor maybe I can get a drive belt from one of their distributors and not have to pay $40.00 to Sears again. I'll be saving this link you provided.;)

You might find it is more expensive elsewhere! On the other hand, if you can find out the length you might find several brands selling the exact same belt cheaper.

It doesn't look like Sears still holds to this system. Perhaps it was dropped when they joined with Kmart. All the power tools start with 009...even the ones with other brand names like Bosch. Can't see any other part of the part number that is common between tools obviously made by the same manufacturer.

[Frankiarmz]

Disaster, I got my parts delivered today and the idler pulley and belt were a breeze to install. I checked the price of the parts on another site and the belt was the same price, idler pulley ten dollars cheaper. I like to stock spare parts here and there because I don't like being without the use of a machine, but aside from the drive and deck belts there's really too many parts to warehouse. I usually shop around for good deals but the leaves pile up fast here in CT, I emptied 48 bins this afternoon and that's only a few days worth.