DeWalt 18V LI pricing......

[roadrashray]

Here:http://www.toologics.com/Manufacturer_News/DeWalt/DeWalt_18v_Nano_Battery_Pricing_20071010407.html

I don't know how to do that cool procedure where all the address "floatsome" can be hidden. Maybe someone can explain.
Thanks..Ray

[doubtingtom]

Here:http://www.toologics.com/Manufacturer_News/DeWalt/DeWalt_18v_Nano_Battery_Pricing_20071010407.html
........ Ray

Great to see right now! Was going to wait for new DeWalt Christmas tool arrivals but the likely pricing and availability sounds tough.

Makes the Ridgid 24v L-I pricing seem 'more in line' as well ...... especially given the Lifetime Warranty program. (HD may reverse their decision and let me 'rebuy' .... will know later today.)

Thanks,
Tom B

[Disaster]

I considered moving over to DeWalt, now that they have embraced LiIon technology, but reading about these prices cooled my heels.

IMHO, $150, for a single battery is ridiculous. I understand that DeWalt, has commanded a premium vs. Ryobi, but 80% more (comparing the battery/charger kits at $180 and $100) is too much.

DeWalts are not that much better than Ryobi.

LiIon is getting less expensive as it becomes more universal and shouldn't cost this much of a premium over NiCad.

Today, I picked up the Ryobi Lithium Ion Drill and light kit. For $150, it included a charger, two batteries, drill and flashlight. All this for the same price as a single DeWalt battery.

Ridiculous.

[cellardoor]

Today, I picked up the Ryobi Lithium Ion Drill and light kit. For $150, it included a charger, two batteries, drill and flashlight. All this for the same price as a single DeWalt battery.

Ridiculous.

This is what I was going to come in and say. I don't know why the upgrade kit is either priced high or the drill kit priced low. I have and will continue to sell a lot of the Drill Kit (Drill, Flashlight [which by the way is a lot better in design than the standard blue Ryobi], 2 batteries, and a charger) and hardly any of the upgrade kit. For an extra 60ish dollars you get drill, flashlight and another battery. No one is going to pass that up.

[l_bilyk]

DeWalts are not that much better than Ryobi.

Um... the new ryobi lithium ion packs are 2.4 Ah. That is the capacity of the OLD dewalt nicad packs.

[Disaster]

Um... the new ryobi lithium ion packs are 2.4 Ah. That is the capacity of the OLD dewalt nicad packs.

2.4Ah is the same capacity as DeWalt's 36 volt Lithium Ion Nano battery and the suggested capacity of the new 18 volt Nano batteries which would make sense because they would most likely use the same individual cells.

http://toolmonger.com/2007/07/13/a-sneak-peek-of-dewalts-18v-li-ion/

[Disaster]

P.S. DeWalts 36 volt batteries can be found for $110. They have twice the power as the 18 volt cells. Shouldn't the 18 volt batteries cost considerably less than $110?

http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-DC9360-36-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Battery/dp/B000FNQYM0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-7161189-6419312?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1192705690&sr=1-1

Of course, this is a bit of an Apples to Oranges comparison as $150 might be the "list price" of the 18 volt cell while $110 is the going price for the 36 volt cells.

I suspect you won't see the DeWalt 18 volt Nanos discounted for a while as the initial demand will be quite high. It might even take a while longer than normal because there is a much larger installed base of 18 volt tools to keep the demand high.

Which leads to the issue with Ridgid. Battery availability. Because they aren't available in stores, only special order, HD appears to charge the "list" price for them. This make them completely uncompetitive with batteries from the other tool companies and puts Ridgid at a severe disadvantage.

[Velosapien]

Remember that those prices are manufacturer suggested retail prices. Those prices don't reflect what the final market prices will be. It's the same as their NiCD having suggested retail prices of $110 and the 36v batteries are supposed to be about $180+ yet they sell in the market for about $65 and $110 respectively. They might go for that right after release but they will quickly drop to match other prices of similar 18v packs. I would expect them to sell for significantly less. I would also expect the ones sold in kits with the tools to be competive with other lithium ion kits which will make the price a lot easier.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

I can't see DeWalt charging a premium over everyone else in the 18V Li Ion market. At this stage, they are one of the last to come out with it, everyone else has had a chance to establish themselves, so to put out batteries at a much higher price than the others would be suicide at this point.

[Disaster]

I can't see DeWalt charging a premium over everyone else in the 18V Li Ion market. At this stage, they are one of the last to come out with it, everyone else has had a chance to establish themselves, so to put out batteries at a much higher price than the others would be suicide at this point.

Maybe they think they can charge a premium because they claim to have superior battery technology. Just look at this chart they released that shows how much longer life their battery has when compared to the competitors blue and red batteries (which look suspiciously like Makita and Milwaukees colors.)

Interestingly, they claim even their NiCad batteries outperform the competitions Lithium Ion.

http://www.pbase.com/dlauring/image/87444767.jpg

[Disaster]

By the way, I doubt DeWalt is exagerating the lifecycle of the A123 cells they use, though they are failing to mention that they will have considerably lower Ah after 2000 cycles.

On the other hand, I wonder what technologies the competitors are using and if they really live up to their claims or actually perform more like DeWalt's chart.

The guys over at the RC groups have really been beating the heck out of A123 cells they have removed from DeWalt 36 volt batteries. Here is a graph of the power left after 400 cycles....20% lower than DeWalts new claim but still pretty impressive when you consider conventional Lithium Ion batteries would be long since dead under these conditions.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512&page=10

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/4/5/5/0/3/a1350685-76-a123%20after%20400cyc%20down%20to%20zero.jpg

[Sceeter W Wheels]

Well yeah, batteries lose their capacities the more you use them. This is a very well known fact.

DeWalt or anyone else could publish all kinds of graphs like this, but unfortunately there's a limit you reach before you start to confuse the buyer. Some of the techie types eat this stuff up, but most people just want to know, will the tool do what I need? will it last a long time? will i get my money's worth?

[Disaster]

Well yeah, batteries lose their capacities the more you use them. This is a very well known fact.

DeWalt or anyone else could publish all kinds of graphs like this, but unfortunately there's a limit you reach before you start to confuse the buyer. Some of the techie types eat this stuff up, but most people just want to know, will the tool do what I need? will it last a long time? will i get my money's worth?

True, most people wouldn't know what to do with a graph like this
http://www.pbase.com/dlauring/image/87450524.jpg
But it might be useful if it could be communicated to them at the battery would lose, say, 50% of it's capacity after 2000 uses. I suspect some people wouldn't even pitch a battery that still worked at half it's original capacity. I wonder if the A123 cells fall off drastically after 2000 cycles or just continue to decrease at the same rate.

[Velosapien]

Here's something to consider. If you fully cycled from your nano batteries from 0 to 100% twice a day, every single day, all seven days of the week, it would take about 2 years and 9 months to reach the theoretical 2000 cycles limit. In that time the battery will probably already have lost about 40% to 60% of its capacity regardless of it being used or not.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

In a way that's the whole point of saying 2000 recharges. Someone's going to throw their battery out when they perceive it as no longer useful. I guess DeWalt figure that's at 50, 60% or whatever they found out is the typical point where someone gets fed up with their battery.

But it might be useful if it could be communicated to them at the battery would lose, say, 50% of it's capacity after 2000 uses. I suspect some people wouldn't even pitch a battery that still worked at half it's original capacity. I wonder if the A123 cells fall off drastically after 2000 cycles or just continue to decrease at the same rate.

[Disaster]

In a way that's the whole point of saying 2000 recharges. Someone's going to throw their battery out when they perceive it as no longer useful. I guess DeWalt figure that's at 50, 60% or whatever they found out is the typical point where someone gets fed up with their battery.

Good jumping off point. Being the geek that I am, I used the graph data to calculate how long it would take the batteries to reach half strength. Of course this is based on this guys usage, for RC's, which is probably more abusive than typical tool usage. In RC's the batteries are run nearly flat out till they poop out. He also ran them down quite low.

Using his data there is .00088Ah lost per cycle. Given his 2.2Ah starting point (again effected by usage) the batteries would hit 1.1Ah in 1,250 cycles. At his usage level they would only have less than .5Ah after 2000 cycles. Again, this is based on his data and assuming the wear out curve remains flat throughout the lifetime of the batteries.

The average tool cycle will vary from tool to tool but usually be less aggressive than an RC user who often runs his batteries flat out the whole time. Therefore DeWalt's numbers look very plausible.

I wonder if their numbers for the "other" manufacturers are as accurate. If so, DeWalt truly has a huge advantage.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

Jumping off what point? Why doesn't DeWalt "helpfully" publish the exact capacity after 2000 cycles? For one, because it would be impossible to say exactly what the exact capacity would be at that point (tool use, right?). All they want to do is targeting the question "are the batteries still reasonably usable after 2000 cycles?" in as simple a way as possible. Does the average Joe care whether it's going to be 52.252525% or 57.252525%? Not really. All they want to know is if the batteries are going to do or close to do what the advertising said it would.

Good jumping off point. Being the geek that I am, I used the graph data to calculate how long it would take the batteries to reach half strength. Of course this is based on this guys usage, for RC's, which is probably more abusive than typical tool usage. In RC's the batteries are run nearly flat out till they poop out. He also ran them down quite low.

Using his data there is .00088Ah lost per cycle. Given his 2.2Ah starting point (again effected by usage) the batteries would hit 1.1Ah in 1,250 cycles. At his usage level they would only have less than .5Ah after 2000 cycles. Again, this is based on his data and assuming the wear out curve remains flat throughout the lifetime of the batteries.

The average tool cycle will vary from tool to tool but usually be less aggressive than an RC user who often runs his batteries flat out the whole time. Therefore DeWalt's numbers look very plausible.

I wonder if their numbers for the "other" manufacturers are as accurate. If so, DeWalt truly has a huge advantage.

[Frankiarmz]

This doesn't say much for Ridgid's 18 volt compact lithium starting off at 1.5Amps. Now if they started at 3.0 at least they'd have a ways to go.:D

[workerbob]

I find it odd and somewhat misleading that Dewalt "claims" their Nicd batteries last longer than the competitions Lithium Ion. Dewalt XRP is notorious for failure and short life. I hope people don't really buy into their marketing. A 2.4 Ah battery comes up short compared to the 3.0Ah batteries many of it's competitors already offer.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

But who's marketing is really honest? They all focus on the things that make them look good and tend to omit the things that don't.

[woodenstickers]

I find it odd and somewhat misleading that Dewalt "claims" their Nicd batteries last longer than the competitions Lithium Ion. Dewalt XRP is notorious for failure and short life. I hope people don't really buy into their marketing. A 2.4 Ah battery comes up short compared to the 3.0Ah batteries many of it's competitors already offer.

If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.

I have never had a problem with my DW batteries, first generation, xr OR xrp. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe a bad experience makes folks squawk louder than a customer who feels he got what he paid for.

I'm not a DeWalt fanboy, I have had bad experiences and good with them, PC, Bosch, Makita...only good so far with ridgid, senco, jet, skil and only bad with Milwaukee. Everybody on here or involved in a trade would have a different list. I still wouldn't talk smack about anything without it being directly related to my experience and qualified as such.

Buy your tools based on experience, personal preference, reviews, price or even color for all I care, but why try to muddy a conversation with (questionable) folk lore and no relayed personal experience or data to back it up? Seems counter productive and a little more whiny the more repetitive it gets.

[Disaster]

If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.


Perhaps that is why DeWalt, in their advertising doesn't spell out Makita or Milwaukee...just shows a picture with their trademark colors. You see the same thing with Ridgid's XLi lineup. They show pictures of their runtime vs. to other colors that look suspiciously like Makitas and DeWalts.

http://www.ridgid.com/xli/

[workerbob]

If any of the claims made by DeWalt or anyone else can be proven to be untrue it's false advertising and a serious problem for them. I know of a few class actions off the top of my head where tool companies had to reimburse customers because they made false claims on things such as horse power. If you can find anything that is patently untrue in DeWalts claims be sure to let me know when the payday starts...otherwise it's pretty irrelevant what is "notorious" to you and your buddies.

I have never had a problem with my DW batteries, first generation, xr OR xrp. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe a bad experience makes folks squawk louder than a customer who feels he got what he paid for.

I'm not a DeWalt fanboy, I have had bad experiences and good with them, PC, Bosch, Makita...only good so far with ridgid, senco, jet, skil and only bad with Milwaukee. Everybody on here or involved in a trade would have a different list. I still wouldn't talk smack about anything without it being directly related to my experience and qualified as such.

Buy your tools based on experience, personal preference, reviews, price or even color for all I care, but why try to muddy a conversation with (questionable) folk lore and no relayed personal experience or data to back it up? Seems counter productive and a little more whiny the more repetitive it gets.

It is all marketing and all companies do it. I just don't buy it from any of them and I'm hoping others don't as well. I have seen good and bad from them all.

I really look forward to the new Dewalt Lithium it will be nice to have options to work with the old tools. I just hope they work well like they are being advertised. The price for the upgraded battery is high at release but I'm sure they will come down after the new wears off.

[Jay6]

Milwaukee 18V lithium ion upgrades are only $179 for 2 V18 batteries and reverse compatible charger.

http://www.ohiopowertool.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=48-11-1833

[Disaster]

Milwaukee 18V lithium ion upgrades are only $179 for 2 V18 batteries and reverse compatible charger.

http://www.ohiopowertool.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=48-11-1833

If Ridgid came out with a set like that I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I'd be much less inclined to buy a set that only comes with one battery. I'm definitely not going to spend $150 or more for a charger and single battery and another $100 for a second battery.

[yasudaplumbing]

You guys have some good points but I think you should look at this from my point of view:

My 18V Dewalt set consists of:

Hammer Drill / Driver
Reciprocating Saw with 4 position blade chuck & depth adjustable shoe which is removable
Impact Driver
Impact Wrench
Angle Grinder
Angle Drill
Drywall Cut Out Tool
Circular Saw
Flood Light
Fluorescent Light
Vacuum
Caulking Gun
Finish Nailer
Rotary Laser Level (self leveling)
Jigsaw
12 BatteriesWouldn't you say that Dewalt has the biggest variety of cordless tools out there? Of Good quality I might add.

Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.

The point is, I already have all the tools. It just wouldn't make sense to go and buy a whole new Brand X lithium ion drill kit just for the sake of spending less than $180.

The recip saw is a strong Mother too, I cut through numerous 1 1/2" and 2" galvanized pipes for repairs. Cutting thru a 4x12 isn't a problem on 1 battery.
This is my main tool during waterline re-routes under houses for removing galvanized piping. Those days of dragging a cord is over.
I leave my corded Porter Cable sawzall at home along with my Skilsaw.

Dewalt isn't crazy, they are smart by letting guys like me save money. Can you imagine how much money I would spend to completely replace all of my tools with lithium ion kits? Even if it were Brand X, which some of the tools they don't even make, especially the rotary laser level at $1100.

That's just my take on it.

Aloha,

Tracy

[Disaster]

Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.


There are a lot of people out there in your shoes so DeWalt is likely to make a killing on these upgrade packs.

However that still doesn't make them the best value.

When they start offering kits with the batteries, they will be hard pressed to charge considerably more than they do now for the NiCad kits because Lithium Ion kit pricing is falling.

Therefore, as long as they can keep selling tools, it is to their advantage, financially, to only sell the Lithium batteries in upgrade kits....That is...as long as they are still selling tools.

If people start choosing to buy competitive 18v tools, because DeWalt doesn't have kits available with Lithium Ion, they will be forced to bring them to the market.

Then you will have the situation where it is much more economical to buy a kit vs. the battery upgrade kit. You could buy the kit and sell the tools that come with it and be way ahead on the deal.

Look at Ryobi, for example. I could have bought an upgrade kit with one battery for $110 or a drill with two batteries, and flashlight for $159. I bought the kit. I'll sell the drill and flashlight for $30-$40 bucks and end up with an extra battery for the same price as the upgrade kit.

[workerbob]

You guys have some good points but I think you should look at this from my point of view:

My 18V Dewalt set consists of:
Hammer Drill / Driver
Reciprocating Saw with 4 position blade chuck & depth adjustable shoe which is removable
Impact Driver
Impact Wrench
Angle Grinder
Angle Drill
Drywall Cut Out Tool
Circular Saw
Flood Light
Fluorescent Light
Vacuum
Caulking Gun
Finish Nailer
Rotary Laser Level (self leveling)
Jigsaw
12 BatteriesWouldn't you say that Dewalt has the biggest variety of cordless tools out there? Good quality I might add.

Now think about it, If I were to buy 3 Nano Batteries and a charger for $480. I would own the best Lithium Ion cordless tool set on this planet.

The point is, I already have all the tools. It just wouldn't make sense to go and buy a whole new Brand X lithium ion drill kit just for the sake of spending less than $180.

The recip saw is a strong Mother too, I cut through numerous 1 1/2" and 2" galvanized pipes for repairs. Cutting thru a 4x12 isn't a problem on 1 battery.
This is my main tool during waterline re-routes under houses for removing galvanized piping. Those days of dragging a cord is over.
I leave my corded Porter Cable sawzall at home along with my Skilsaw.

Dewalt isn't crazy, they are smart by letting guys like me save money. Can you imagine how much money I would spend to completely replace all of my tools with lithium ion kits? Even if it were Brand X, which some of the tools they don't even make.

That's just my take on it.

Aloha,

Tracy

I know Ryobi and Makita both have just as many or more tools that run off of the same type of battery. So there are other options as far as one company using one battery for all of their cordless. But, like you said you already have tools.

[Velosapien]

Ryobi has by FAR the most extensive cordless lineup but if you want something that can handle real world heavy duty use they are not quite the way to go. Makita is quickly catching up but they are still lacking a few tools Dewalt has in their 18v lineup like the big impact wrench, screw guns, worklights, right angle drill and a couple of others. Also, a few of their tools have not made it outside japan and europe. I noticed in their japan site they now have a right angle impact driver like the Ridgid one. Makita claims to have more tools right now but they count their kits as tools which means a lot of repeats.

[Disaster]

From a pure robustness standpoint, the A123 technology, in the DeWalt Nano cells is king. It is the only Lithium Ion technology I know of that is completely thermal runaway proof...ie. it will not go into a state where the heat keeps building and driving a faster hotter reaction until a fire occurs.

However it also one of the least power to weight efficient and because it is offered by only one company, is one of the most expensive.

One could argue this is DeWalt being it's typically conservative self.

It is good to know you could drop a drill off a building and not have to worry about it setting your truck on fire as it breaks down.

I'm interested to see how the pricing works out in the long run.

ie. Regarding Ryobi, they are a different class of tools. They are a good value but not as robust. They aren't targeted toward the tradesman that will use them day after day.

Regarding Makita, they have some pretty cool tools...especially their newer lighter weight line, but they also aren't quite as rugged and they definitely don't have as diverse a lineup.

[Sceeter W Wheels]

The Makita tools are nice. I have the 1.5AH impact/drill kit and I really like the tools for what they are. The impact, nice little tool, BUT there's little things about it that seem kind of flimsy. It tends to vibrate a lot if you're doing slower impacting and I noticed that the quickchange chuck has a fair amount play, moving in and out. I thought maybe there's something wrong with mine, but even the brand new ones sitting on the store shelves do the same thing.

Regarding Makita, they have some pretty cool tools...especially their newer lighter weight line, but they also aren't quite as rugged and they definitely don't have as diverse a lineup.