View Full Version : Pressure testing residential gas systems
I've bein getting quite a few residential calls lately to pressure test the gas lines for buyers.Average appliances [4],and I am bidding them around $325.00.This is 4 hours total ,which includes dis-connecting the appliances and capping,bumping up the line to 15psi,$21.00 inspection,and come back and re-connect appliances,and fire everything up,and leak testing.I'm noy getting a lot of call backs on this.I don"t think I'm really out of the ball-park here.What"s your opinions if any?:confused:
plumberscrack
10-18-2007, 04:15 PM
I don't know what the plumbing market is in your area.
$325 for 4 hours labor and 2 trips that would be a bargain here.
I would think that it could be done in less time though unless part of that time is waiting for an inspector to show up.
That's just covering my butt like flat rate.I tell them it could go quicker and therefore would be less. The price is low because my business is just starting in this city.Southern people are leary of yankees but they soften when money is involved.
PLUMBER RICK
10-18-2007, 08:26 PM
why all of a sudden a lot of calls to pressure test the gas lines?
i only get this when there is a leak and the gas co. shuts them off.
just curious.
325 is right where i would be for 4 hours:D
rick.
toolaholic
10-18-2007, 10:22 PM
Hey,You're on to something here! Do the whole hood ,each call. Kinda like painting address #s on curbs. Come back next night to see Who puts the envelope out!
I'm not sure why the rash of gas calls,and maybe this question is geared more for the flat-raters.I"m just trying to incorporate some flat-rate into the business .This is pretty much a cut and dry type call with few possibilities for surprises,I wanted to put out a fair number for this type of job.What would a flat-rater charge for testing the system,kerep in mind 2 trips because you'll never get an inspector over the same day.
brucestorey
10-19-2007, 07:38 AM
I'm not sure why the rash of gas calls.
There's probably a new guy in town! Or maybe the old guy learned some new stuff. Or maybe the gas company is performing some updates on meters or regulators.
Last year, I had a rash of gas leak calls where the gas company shut-down the systems on homes in a couple of neighborhoods next to each other -- each being about forty to fifty years old with the gas meters inside of the houses. The gas company leaves tags with the technicians signature on it, describing the problem, and I noticed that every tag had the same signature.
What I found-out was, the gas company was replacing their line regulators if they weren't the current standard, and they were either changing meters or retrofitting them with transmitters for remote reading. While this one particular technician was in the houses, he would check for leaks on exposed pipe with his new leak detector and he would check for "proper draft" at the water heater with a lit match. He found several decades-old leaks and burned a lot of matches to determine (mostly inaccurately) improper draft. He would then tag the system and shut it down. Then my neighbors would call me.
Many of my customers had no problems whatsoever, but had to pay me to write this on a ticket to get their gas turned back on. However, many ended-up with me breaking-down their entire system and putting it back together.
Bruce
These have actually bein scattered through-out 4 or 5 cities,but I agree it could certainly be even an ambitious gas tech.Still trying to get a idea of folks averages for a pressure test with the scenario I was providing.Thanks to those who replied.:)
drtyhands
10-19-2007, 06:51 PM
I just ran an add in my local newspaper under an alias,trying to scare the people into thinking their house could explode if they don't get the gas checked.
Next week I'll mail out flyers for inspection services;)
I'm also currently offering a 20% discount on sasquatch repellent to all first time customers.
biscuit
10-19-2007, 08:41 PM
I just ran an add in my local newspaper under an alias,trying to scare the people into thinking their house could explode if they don't get the gas checked.
Next week I'll mail out flyers for inspection services;)
I'm also currently offering a 20% discount on sasquatch repellent to all first time customers.
Right now I dont have a need for "SASQUATCH" repellent as I live in the deep south.
Come to think of it, I dont know that I would want it as us "rednecks" like to have darn near anything mounted to hang on the wall. I think a sasquatch would give me a "1 up" on all my friends at deer and duck camps.:D
As a result, once a redneck thinks it through (if thats even possible):eek:, I dont think you will have much of a market for your product here.:(
Regards,
Did you really run an ad like that.
drtyhands
10-19-2007, 08:59 PM
Did you really run an ad like that.
NO.....I have seen worse though;)
(GOT MOLD?)
Your price looks good thogh APF
DUNBAR
10-19-2007, 09:55 PM
Does anyone test with nitrogen like on water lines in new commercial?
You can hear the leaks at a very low low pressure. Shrieking noise that you can hear over all the background noise.
westcoastplumber
10-19-2007, 11:20 PM
Does anyone test with nitrogen like on water lines in new commercial?
You can hear the leaks at a very low low pressure. Shrieking noise that you can hear over all the background noise.
Nitrogen is an excellent way to find leaks, it will whistle for the smallest leak.
As far as 325.00 for 4 hrs......I charge 350.00 for 2 hrs, includes capping the gas fixtures, looking for the leak. Leaks are usually found in the first hr.
I bid the job to make the repair, if the line dosen't hold, and apply these charges toward the overall repair.
Lets do some math here 325.00 for 4 hrs breaks down to 81.25 hr:eek: does this include materials?? equipment charges too?? drive time??
I am sure for your market, it is a good wage, but for out here, after overhead and taxes, etc, equipment charges, maint, that breaks out to around $45.00 hr.
A prime example of why the plumbing trade in los angeles is taking a dive, and not many new tradespersons are able to feed their families off what people are willing to pay for services.
Just my opinion.............
Good idea on the nitro Dunbar,thanks dirty,Robert I gotta start somewhere!I think I'm doing well moving to a city I"ve never worked in and opening shop.The prices will increase as the cust. base does.You boys keep forgetting this is not a major market and not growing up/working this area is a considerable challenge.Move to a small city,less than a million ,and ask for the large flow and see how far the average person gets....bankrupt.I grew up poor as hell ,I don't give my work away,but I look out for the common person.I have a clear conscience.
drtyhands
10-20-2007, 08:02 AM
Good to know you APF.
Glad your here with us.
drtyhands
10-20-2007, 08:35 AM
Does anyone test with nitrogen like on water lines in new commercial?
You can hear the leaks at a very low low pressure. Shrieking noise that you can hear over all the background noise.
I looked to see how heavy nitrogen was thinking that it's weight might have something to do with it making a more distinct sound than the compressed air with CO2 that I use to test my projects.
The HVAC systems used in the buildings I work on have that dang black plastic 1/8 tubing fished all over the place.So inevitably it gets nicked or cut and hisses for the duration of the job.Makes it hard to listen for leaks.
CO2 tanks can be refilled for $15.00,pretty reasonable.I don't know how much nitrogen costs,is it as readily available as CO2.
Could this be,once again the forum is giving great advice.
Thanks Dunbar:)
westcoastplumber
10-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Good idea on the nitro Dunbar,thanks dirty,Robert I gotta start somewhere!I think I'm doing well moving to a city I"ve never worked in and opening shop.The prices will increase as the cust. base does.You boys keep forgetting this is not a major market and not growing up/working this area is a considerable challenge.Move to a small city,less than a million ,and ask for the large flow and see how far the average person gets....bankrupt.I grew up poor as hell ,I don't give my work away,but I look out for the common person.I have a clear conscience.
Good morning apf, I stated in my post that for your market I was sure it was a good wage, I was venting more about things around here in my area and I kinda used your thread to do it;):D
I understand your market is smaller over there and you just moved and you are trying to get the word out, I am happy for you. I too grew up poor as hell, no one to give me a hand, no inheritance, made some mistakes in my life, but it all makes you stronger, and your better for it.
Everything you get and use to build your business means so much more then as if it was handed to you. heck, maybe thats why people charge far less then they should in my area. When you have to go out and walk the streets with flyers, or do email flyers for hours on end, all you put in, your customer base is the best thing you have to prove all your hard work.
Most people are in this business to make money, some may have it as a hobby, but for most of us, we plan on doing this for the rest of our lives and to feed our family by doing it.
Glad to have you here apf, I am sure we are alot alike, just in 2 different markets buddy;):D
I feel the same way ,glad to be here .I am not happy about my pricing at this time but feel it's a neccessary evil.It'll even out .I do al-right with tool charges as well.I don't know if they are built into the flat-rate,if I remember correctly,most flat-rate companies I worked for didn't charge extra for b-tank,demo-hammer,shop-vac,etc.I could be wrong,but anyways,it helps a bit.Have a good day.
drtyhands
10-20-2007, 01:30 PM
APF,
Could the thought be configured,that this is specialty work when you use these tools and knowledge.
"TECHY" doesn't know how to braze and probably doesn't have the equipment.He doesn't know how to run a core drill or have the equipment.Any more I would not be suprised if he did not have a pipe threading machine and was charging the customer hourly to hand thread.
Actually you brought a good thought to bear in mind.If I have the equipment and knowledge to work twice as fast as the guy who doesn't(he does have a prettier truck than me though:mad:)why shouldn't I charge for that equipment.Flat or hour it should be in.
At my prices I have to ;)
winslow
10-21-2007, 04:56 AM
Why can't you just put on a manometer and test the system with line pressure. That will tell you immediately if you have a leak. Using high pressure takes forever and is inaccurate. When installing a new line I usually test it with 6 inches mercury (UPC). Then after all the appliances are installed and hooked up at finish I test it with 12 or 14 inches water column (depending on if it is Nat or Propane).
That is also a good way to test.But ,my discussion was on bidding/flat-rating the disconnect,pressurizing,and returning after inspection to re-connect and light the appliances.Anyone have a flat-rate number?
NHMaster3015
12-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Gas Line pressure test only needs to be 1 1/2 times the working pressure. So 15 lbs is way too much to start with and if you're using a Rodgers gauge or a manometer they will not read that high. Disconnecting and capping the appliances is also a waste of time. Just turn off the gas valves. Make sure you do because even 3lbs will destroy many gas valves.
westcoastplumber
12-15-2007, 07:47 PM
I just ran an add in my local newspaper under an alias,trying to scare the people into thinking their house could explode if they don't get the gas checked.
Next week I'll mail out flyers for inspection services;)
I'm also currently offering a 20% discount on sasquatch repellent to all first time customers.
Wow, that explains the increase in gas related tests:D
I charge $350.00 for all, the test, the cap off, the permit etc.
If the customer has spring loaded shut offs or bad flex lines, that is at an additional material charge.
drtyhands
12-15-2007, 07:53 PM
Gas Line pressure test only needs to be 1 1/2 times the working pressure. So 15 lbs is way too much to start with and if you're using a Rodgers gauge or a manometer they will not read that high. Disconnecting and capping the appliances is also a waste of time. Just turn off the gas valves. Make sure you do because even 3lbs will destroy many gas valves.I don't quite understand NHM.If someone were to ask me to test the integrity of their gas piping,I would isolate the equipment and pump up the system to the required UPC pressure of 15lbs.Is there something I did not catch on a previous post.
westcoastplumber
12-15-2007, 07:54 PM
I don't quite understand NHM.If someone were to ask me to test the integrity of their gas piping,I would isolate the equipment and pump up the system to the required UPC pressure of 15lbs.Is there something I did not catch on a previous post.
UPC calls for a 15 lbs test? I thought it was 10 lbs:confused:
drtyhands
12-15-2007, 08:05 PM
UPC calls for a 15 lbs test? I thought it was 10 lbs:confused:AAAHH!!!! Thanks Robert,you have know Idea how many times I use the 15lbs.Just a little thickheaded,HUH?:D
ToUtahNow
12-15-2007, 08:13 PM
Adam,
I was taught and have taught to pump the system to 15 psig. That way if the inspector wants to bleed it to 10psig before the test he can.
Mark
westcoastplumber
12-15-2007, 08:14 PM
Disconnecting and capping the appliances is also a waste of time. Just turn off the gas valves.
It is good to cap and then test because gas shut valves can and will leak and throw off the test.
PLUMBER RICK
12-15-2007, 08:16 PM
AAAHH!!!! Thanks Robert,you have know Idea how many times I use the 15lbs.Just a little thickheaded,HUH?:D
15# gauge, no longer allowed to use a 30# gauge.
i actually had an inspector many years ago break with his hands, any gauge that was not reading down to 0 when he let the air out after the test.
very impressive.
rick.
plumbdog10
12-15-2007, 08:54 PM
15# gauge, no longer allowed to use a 30# gauge.
i actually had an inspector many years ago break with his hands, any gauge that was not reading down to 0 when he let the air out after the test.
very impressive.
rick.
Was that in Irvine, Rick?
PLUMBER RICK
12-15-2007, 09:42 PM
Was that in Irvine, Rick?
dog it was downtown l.a. going back to 1981:eek:
i'll come up with his name. it wasn't schuman:eek: he was also tuff. so was clifton.
rick.
inspector gillman comes to mind?
ToUtahNow
12-15-2007, 10:11 PM
Isn't Lee Clifton in charge of Code Enforcement now? I recall sitting in one of his code classes once.
Mark
PLUMBER RICK
12-15-2007, 11:23 PM
Isn't Lee Clifton in charge of Code Enforcement now? I recall sitting in one of his code classes once.
Mark
yes he is.
rick.
myakka
12-15-2007, 11:38 PM
Will that repellent work on skunk ape?
DuckButter
12-16-2007, 03:33 AM
Gas Line pressure test only needs to be 1 1/2 times the working pressure. So 15 lbs is way too much to start with and if you're using a Rodgers gauge or a manometer they will not read that high. Disconnecting and capping the appliances is also a waste of time. Just turn off the gas valves. Make sure you do because even 3lbs will destroy many gas valves.
Same here in MA, either 1-1/2 times operating pressure or 3 PSI, whichever is lower...which means 3 PSI almost always on gas with a low pressure guage that goes to 7 PSI so you can see any movement.
These UPC guys don't realise there are other codes.
NHMaster3015
12-16-2007, 09:35 AM
the upc may want 15 lbs, I never really get involved with the upc. The national fuel gas code, and the ipc both want 1 1/2 times working pressure.
PLUMBER RICK
12-16-2007, 09:53 AM
guys, out here our gas pressure (natural) inside the building is only 7'' water column.
so your 1.5 times working pressure would still only be 10.5'' water column.
we might as well blow into the line to fill it for a test.
10# on low pressure 65# on med pressure or welded systems.
rick.
DuckButter
12-16-2007, 01:56 PM
so your 1.5 times working pressure would still only be 10.5'' water column.
we might as well blow into the line to fill it for a test.
I stand GRAVELY corrected...I'd meant to say whichever is higher - 1.5 times working pressure, or 3 PSI.
I'd just woken up...note the time of my post....thats my story, I'm sticking to it.
Also, please try to understand, this is a source of major frustration for me and others I'm sure...what you might consider bad plumbing or bad practice has worked here for decades.
I just try to learn the common denominators, it's a curiousity to see the differences in our codes, food for thought on why those differences exist.
In reference to testing at 15 PSI, let me make an interesting point....
The reason we are required to use a gauge that reads 7 PSI max is so we can see the slightest changes in pressure over a small amount of time.
If that needle budges so much as the width of the needle, the inspector will fail it. ( this does create small problems with rapid temperature changes in weather)
A needle on a gauge that reads at least 15 PSI will be harder to see those small changes because the range of motion is much greater.
More isn't always better.
I'd like to learn the reasons we have these differences, without sensing any level of disdain over them.
A perfectly obvious example, earthquake restraints.
If I used them on a heater, the inspector might think I was a hack playing guessing games, you guys have to use them or you look like a hack.
I'd still like to learn why we use full size VTR while you guys can break them up...I'm almost positive it's because of hoar frost, yet at one point a member commented that we were outdated for doing that, it hadn't been in their code for years.
NHMaster....puuulllleease stick around...we need ya.
ToUtahNow
12-16-2007, 02:26 PM
I'd like to learn the reasons we have these differences, without sensing any level of disdain over them.
Perhaps the east coast guys system would not pass at 15 psig?
Mark:D
DuckButter
12-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Perhaps the east coast guys system would not pass at 15 psig?
Mark:D
Budda bing...budda boom!
Mark, no lie...I was on a job years ago where the licensed guy put his test at 5.
The inspector almost failed him, made him drop it to 3 and waited.
I used to test at 10 to be sure prior to inspection, my theory was that it would drop much faster at higher PSI's and save time in the event I wasn't holding, but my experience has shown me it drops at about the same rate, regardless of pressure.
The only time I use higher pressure is to be able to hear any hissing on a line that isn't holding...in the event leak detector hasn't shown anything.
NHMaster3015
12-16-2007, 04:06 PM
Here's the problem with testing at pressures over 5lbs. It's near impossible to find a gauge that will "accurately" read small pressure drops. If you use a u-tube manometer 10 lbs of pressure will spray the water all over the place. The gas utility (Northern Utilities in our region) mandates testing with either a rogers or similar gauge or a manometer, and at 1 1/2 lbs working pressure which for most natural gas installations would be abour 3lbs. You don't have to crank up the pressure to find a leak. If you take a read through the a National Fuel Gas code you will find that 1 1/2 lbs x working is the standard. If I had a copy handy I would quote it directly but we're in the middle of a Northeaster and I'm not driving down to the shop today, maybe not tomorrow either :rolleyes:
gear junkie
12-16-2007, 06:35 PM
Here's the problem with testing at pressures over 5lbs. It's near impossible to find a gauge that will "accurately" read small pressure drops.
I've been wondering why testing on gas lines is done in psig when it should be W.C.? I've always used a digital manometer to test gas pressure. Glad to see I wasn't off my rocker.
PLUMBER RICK
12-16-2007, 09:44 PM
I've been wondering why testing on gas lines is done in psig when it should be W.C.? I've always used a digital manometer to test gas pressure. Glad to see I wasn't off my rocker.
ben, we are referring to testing a new installation. typically the gauges sit on the line for days waiting for the inspector to show.
your digital is great for testing the regulator, but not practical for a ruff inspection test.
rick.
plumbdog10
12-16-2007, 10:24 PM
Bottom line: Here in the Great State of California we are required by the building department (by way of the UPC) to test our rough gas piping, and final gas piping at 10 psi. Us old timers traditionally test at 15 psi because that is the way we were taught. When the gas supplier comes out and connects they test at line pressure which in residential would be .50 psi or less.
Thats the way its done in the great west, you eastcoasters should shut-up and learn.
To save the reams of hate mail, I'm joking on that last line.
ToUtahNow
12-16-2007, 11:43 PM
You guys on the East coast need to understand we have been using 10 psig to test our gas for 61-years already (1946 UPC Section 1504). It seems to have worked for us so far so we may just keep using it.
Mark
biscuit
12-17-2007, 06:57 AM
Its 15 psi for us down here and must be on for a minimum of 24 hours before inspection.
Regards,
gear junkie
12-17-2007, 08:48 AM
ben, we are referring to testing a new installation. typically the gauges sit on the line for days waiting for the inspector to show.
your digital is great for testing the regulator, but not practical for a ruff inspection test.
rick.
Got it. We get inspected every day on Navy projects so it's a little different for me.
NHMaster3015
12-17-2007, 08:58 AM
I'm it the office now so on the east coast here's the deal.
National Fuel Gas Code:
8.4.1 Test pressure shall be measured with a a manometer or a pressure measuring device designed and calibrated to read, record or indicate pressure loss due to leakage during the test preiod. Tfhe source of pressure shall be isolated before pressure tests are made. Mechanical gauges used to measure the test pressures shall have a range such that the higest end of the scale is not greater than 5 times the test pressure.
8.1.4.2 The test pressure to be used shall not be less that 1 1/2 times the proposed maximum working pressure, but not less than 3 psi. irrespective of design pressure. Where the test pressure exceeds 125lbs. the test pressure shall not exceed the value that produces a hoop stress in the piping greater thatn 50% of the specified minimum yeald strenght of the pipe
biscuit
12-17-2007, 09:10 AM
I'm it the office now so on the east coast here's the deal.
National Fuel Gas Code:
8.4.1 Test pressure shall be measured with a a manometer or a pressure measuring device designed and calibrated to read, record or indicate pressure loss due to leakage during the test preiod. Tfhe source of pressure shall be isolated before pressure tests are made. Mechanical gauges used to measure the test pressures shall have a range such that the higest end of the scale is not greater than 5 times the test pressure.
8.1.4.2 The test pressure to be used shall not be less that 1 1/2 times the proposed maximum working pressure, but not less than 3 psi. irrespective of design pressure. Where the test pressure exceeds 125lbs. the test pressure shall not exceed the value that produces a hoop stress in the piping greater thatn 50% of the specified minimum yeald strenght of the pipe
You are correct in what the fuel gas code says, but when job specifications call for something more, that is what must be done. Most of the engineers in our area call for a 15 psi test so that is just what we do on all projects.
Also worth noting to students is the fact that most cities have their own rules to go above and beyone the IBC.
Regards,
PLUMBER RICK
12-17-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm it the office now so on the east coast here's the deal.
National Fuel Gas Code:
8.4.1 Mechanical gauges used to measure the test pressures shall have a range such that the higest end of the scale is not greater than 5 times the test pressure.
8.1.4.2 The test pressure to be used shall not be less that 1 1/2 times the proposed maximum working pressure, but not less than 3 psi.
we too have to use a gauge with a max scale of 15#. this is so it will show a drop as the segments are easier to read than the traditional 30# gauge we use to use.
so if you code allows for a min. of 3# and a gauge of not greater than 5x the test pressure. then you can use a 15# gauge just like us:D
the gauge being the same, why not put some pressure in it. our test is a minimum of 10# and i would fill a little higher. if the inspector wanted to, they would lower them all to 10# and check them. we did go through temperature changes here too.
remember when i did gas test, it wasn't 1 test. it was typically 20-60 at a time. the gauges would typically sit from ruff inspection to final inspection.
i was thrilled when the ball valve style gas valves came out. these would allow me to test against them and still have the appliances connected.
rick.
NHMaster3015
12-17-2007, 01:21 PM
The local mech inspectors might let us get away with testing at higher pressures, but the utility company won't accept the test at anything higher that 5lbs. And since they have to sign off on it before they set the meter, they call the shots. I have no problem with higher test pressures, hell wrap it up to 100lbs if you can.
drtyhands
12-17-2007, 02:40 PM
When I was in my apprenticeship I was told not to over pressurize my gas systems.It can cause leaks.20lbs has always been good to me for a newly installed system.
plumbdog10
12-17-2007, 09:46 PM
When I was in my apprenticeship I was told not to over pressurize my gas systems.It can cause leaks.20lbs has always been good to me for a newly installed system.
Over pressuring a system by how much? A standard system using sch. 40 pipe and standard 150# fittings should easily handle a 150# air system. Now if the joints aren't threaded correctly etc. It might not hold that pressure, so there is the danger of leaks on that kind of pressure, but 10-20psi over the 10psi required is nothing.
gear junkie
12-17-2007, 09:52 PM
Why would overpressurrizing cause leaks? If the gas line is gal or black iron, the same material which used to be subject to 40-60 psi when used on water lines, why would 20 or 30lbs make a difference?
biscuit
12-18-2007, 06:53 AM
Why would overpressurrizing cause leaks? If the gas line is gal or black iron, the same material which used to be subject to 40-60 psi when used on water lines, why would 20 or 30lbs make a difference?
It wont make a difference, if you performed a proper install:eek:.
DuckButter
12-18-2007, 08:53 AM
To save the reams of hate mail, I'm joking on that last line.
See, ya ruined it.
It's funny till ya have to explain it...now go get a low pressure guage and start doing it right.
drtyhands
12-18-2007, 08:58 AM
It wont make a difference, if you performed a proper install:eek:.
Sorry all you guys,I install the system to consistently hold 20-25 lbs of air.
Ben,water does not leak as bad as air.
The system is designed for a half a pound of pressure.I'm not going to waste my money changing out material that won't hold the manufacturers 300lb rating.That is where we are heading with the pressure issue isn't it:confused:
NHMaster3015
12-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Guess if it holds it's good, yes. I tell my students if the water leaks you've got a mess to clean up. If the waste leaks you've got a stinkey mess to clean up. If the gas leaks you've got dead people to clean up. Just for grins google Amelia's law and have a read. See the F@#$%ing mess that leak caused.
westcoastplumber
12-18-2007, 07:28 PM
I usually test mine at 12 psi, then the inspector can kick it down a couple pounds if he wishes.
the code requires (upc) 319.0 10 psi test or less should be performed with guages of 1 / 10 pound incrementation or less.
of course med and high pressure tests have different guages, this is just for low pressure, 1/2 lb test.
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