No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

[gear junkie]

Me and the wife were sitting eating lunch at the house when we heard a water being poured into the bathroom. Shocked to see my bathroom ceiling had caved in and water was pouring out. I call maintance and they open the upstairs apt and when we pulled the toilet, there was no sign of a wax ring. Clean flange, underside was clean from wax too. They set and caulked the toilet and that's it. It worked like this for a long time. It looked like the toilet had shifted and that's why it finally leaked.

[drtyhands]

Me and the wife were sitting eating lunch at the house when we heard a water being poured into the bathroom. Shocked to see my bathroom ceiling had caved in and water was pouring out. I call maintance and they open the upstairs apt and when we pulled the toilet, there was no sign of a wax ring. Clean flange, underside was clean from wax too. They set and caulked the toilet and that's it. It worked like this for a long time. It looked like the toilet had shifted and that's why it finally leaked.
I wonder if it was because they finally had a stoppage.:rolleyes:

[gear junkie]

The water was leaking past the flapper and causing the toilet to continuiosly:confused: run.

[toolaholic]

Oh Man ,Those UNION plumbers have been here again !

[toolaholic]

OOPS , Almost forgot , what are wax rings?????

[oldslowchevy]

OOPS , Almost forgot , what are wax rings?????


your kidding right?:eek: please for the love of god tell me you are kidding, i mean come on now even my 16 year old knows what a wax ring is.

[PLUMBER RICK]

The water was leaking past the flapper and causing the toilet to continuiosly:confused: run.

ben, can't say that i've come across a missing wax ring, but many, many wax rings that leaked due to not being thick enough.

believe it or not a running/ dripping toilet has a good chance of leaking as the water and toilet create cohesion and the water will cling to the china causing it to get past the open flange. whereas a toilet flushing will typically spill into the flange just a pitcher of water being poured into a glass.

hope i've got the proper terms.

rick.

[garager]

Could this be a prime example of caulking a toilet, can create a bigger mess. I know its code, but if you cannot get some kind of warning before its too late, the person below the toilet could be eating wallboard for dinner. Also a running toilet should be creating a lot of condensation dripping on the floor as well. Apparently they chose to ignore this, or it was never leaking. Now there will be a sh!t load of mold in the sub floor and ceiling.

[biscuit]

Garager,

I agree with you 100% on all statements.

Regards,

[toolaholic]

Chevy,You are slow, I'm old. That was a YOKE ,as Hans says

[oldslowchevy]

Chevy,You are slow, I'm old. That was a YOKE ,as Hans says
hey i was hoping that was "yoke":D but you know as well as i do people never cease to amaze me with there complete lack of knowelge in the trades that they work in:eek:

[Frankiarmz]

I'd appreciate some professional advice, as a homeowner I've changed maybe seven or eight wax rings and now they have the ones with the plastic sleeve which makes even more sense. A couple of years ago I watched a plumber trace the base of the toilet bowl onto the floor and before he put the toilet in place he poured a real small line of plaster of paris on the line. Then he seated the bowl and put a level on the seat area, as he pushed down and got it level he finished by cleaning a smoothline of the plaster along the base of the bowl. Is this a good idea to keep the bowl from rocking and to give it a finished look, or could it mask a leak and cause more problems? Thanks.:confused:

[Aaron91]

OOO that's where your supposed to put those 'sticky rings'?!

****!

:D

[PLUMBER RICK]

I'd appreciate some professional advice, as a homeowner I've changed maybe seven or eight wax rings and now they have the ones with the plastic sleeve which makes even more sense. A couple of years ago I watched a plumber trace the base of the toilet bowl onto the floor and before he put the toilet in place he poured a real small line of plaster of paris on the line. Then he seated the bowl and put a level on the seat area, as he pushed down and got it level he finished by cleaning a smoothline of the plaster along the base of the bowl. Is this a good idea to keep the bowl from rocking and to give it a finished look, or could it mask a leak and cause more problems? Thanks.:confused:

actually, caulking/ dap is used for this purpose and is an approved method. the plaster of paris is not only more work, but not an approved water tight seal. that's why grout is not an approved material, but is used very commonly. the seal has to be water tight and also flexible to keep from cracking.

the caulking is there for sanitary reasons to not allow dirt/ liquids under the toilet where it can't be cleaned up. it also does help in securing the toilet from rocking as you tool/ push the caulk into the joint.

typically you test flush the toilet a few times to check for leaks prior to caulking. the caulking was not intended to prevent leaks or mask leaks from the toilet or ring.

rick.

ps. caulking is required on all fixtures that come into contact with other surfaces.

[Frankiarmz]

Thank you, caulking it will be!

[plumbdog10]

Could this be a prime example of caulking a toilet, can create a bigger mess. I know its code, but if you cannot get some kind of warning before its too late, the person below the toilet could be eating wallboard for dinner. Also a running toilet should be creating a lot of condensation dripping on the floor as well. Apparently they chose to ignore this, or it was never leaking. Now there will be a sh!t load of mold in the sub floor and ceiling.

No, Granger, this is a prime example of a non-plumber who thinks he knows something. Wait a minute code committees you have all been wrong for all these years. We don't need caulking around fixtures. Forget mold under the fixture, we need to protect the public against unqualified installers.

Actually I agree with you. I think we should prohibit covers over light switches, in case a "builder" such as you installed it. That way someone can see the sparks flying before the house burns down.

This has come up before with you, I take it you had some bad experiences with setting toilets? Leave it to the pro's Granger, you'll sleep better at night.

[BHD]

Plumb dog like he stated in another post he has had to replace to many floors that were destroyed by a toilet being caulked, because the toilet was leaking into the finish floor and sub floor, and there was little or no sign of the problem until the floor was soggy and or rotten or delaminated, want mold caulk it and have a leak, that is a good way of doing it.
I have had to replace floors for the same reason. (Code or not code it is a potential problem in it self.)

As shown here there is a differing of Opinion, some think it is the way to go, and some don't. In many instances Codes are an opinion of some, and who ever the decision maker is gets it his way, and to further my point why is there so many diffrnecences of codes from place to place, some like cast some like PVC, some like XXXXX, some like this here and that there. Is one place necessarily right or wrong, Each decision maker had there reason for why or why not. (and some decisions are union or politics related and nothing to do with health or public safety, some are jsut time takers), Not necessarily it was right or that it was wrong.

One opinion to caulk or not to caulk is jsut that an opinion, and in the past the reasoning was stated and here is a point for furthering his reason not to caulk or at lest not to caulk it 100% as some stated they do not caulk the rear of the toilet in the past. so a leak will show up. (And some think that caulking around the base of a toilet is not in the best interest of the public).

[garager]

No, Granger, this is a prime example of a non-plumber who thinks he knows something. Wait a minute code committees you have all been wrong for all these years. We don't need caulking around fixtures. Forget mold under the fixture, we need to protect the public against unqualified installers.

Actually I agree with you. I think we should prohibit covers over light switches, in case a "builder" such as you installed it. That way someone can see the sparks flying before the house burns down.

This has come up before with you, I take it you had some bad experiences with setting toilets? Leave it to the pro's Granger, you'll sleep better at night.

I have no clue about the switch cover your referring to. So I asked about an electrical situation, never said I was a pro there.

Plumbing Dog, I do know about a lot of plumbing, but I will stay to the light plumbing and let the pro's do the rest, because this is how I handle my business and the way it should be handled by law/code. I know just as much about the toilets as you do. I do put caulking around the toilets, always have.

But now as I get older, I do see more of the rotting floors and mold that goes on when a toilet is caulked. So this situation is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do you do remodeling Dog??? To see how many floors/ceilings are damaged and how sever they are damaged when a toilet is leaking and water trapped underneath.

I don't try to do your job, but when it comes to light plumbing (which I can do in the state of Minnesota) I'll do it. I'm sure your capable of doing some carpentry. Are you going to call a carpenter to add one more stud in a wall or are you going to do it yourself to keep the progress of the job going? This is just a debate, and I will always go by the code.

Dog, do feel threaten by my presence in the plumbing area, and are my suggestions bad? I'm more in here to continue learning, mostly about newer products, whats the harm in that. So I ask a few questions, get into conversations, at least I'm active and give support. You on the other hand. like to step in and chase anyone that is not at your level out of here. Conversation from you, is almost non existence, but you'll make statements/answers.

No Dog, I'm not at your level in Plumbing, but why should I agree with what you have to say. You chased me out one time, because I was a rookie to the internet forums, but this will never happen again. So if I feel qualified enough to answer a question, I will. Doesn't mean anybody has to listen to me, especially you. You don't like my presence here, why don't you put me on your ignore list. Maybe because I think you do like what I have to say in this forum......:rolleyes::D

Not trying to rag on ya dog, just letting you know, I'll say what I want in here, unless asked not to by, Josh.

Freedom of speech, isn't this what you preach???????:) Have a nice day Dog.

[drtyhands]

After setting hundreds of toilets.I firmly believe that if the w/c is not dapped down there is too high of a probability that over time movement,I know you secured it when you put it in, will cause the ring to fail.

If you guys have had the oppotunity to set your fixtures with uniform surfaces you may have had better LUCK with not using a sealant,Plumbers on the other hand have had so much experience involving all the variables involved with completing this fixture under it's exsisting conditions.

[Herk]

Of course code here requires caulk around the toilet or where any plumbing fixture meets the wall or floor, with the exception of carpet - and why anyone would want to carpet a bathroom is beyond me.

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread regarding support of the toilet and so on. Little boys miss (as well as big ones) and I seldom lift an uncaulked toilet that doesn't have a nasty smear of urine, dirt, mop slosh, and/or bugs beneath it.

As to plaster - that would certainly be a rarity. They make plastic shims for this, or you can use wood shims, cutting off either flush with the edge of the toilet base, then using silicone to fill the gap - assuming it's not too large. I mean, if you've got a half inch or more on one side of the toilet, then by all means, use some kind of floor leveler first.

Silicone hardens enough to support the toilet pretty well, so even if you use wood shims, you don't have to worry about them rotting away. You have to cut the caulk away before you try pulling the toilet again, or you'll rip the vinyl. Maybe even pull up a tile.

Some plumbers have said that they caulk around the flange before they set the closet to prevent water getting beneath vinyl, but I can't swear to the effectiveness or necessity of doing so.

BTW - it's my strong opinion that the misuse of gaskets with a plastic insert leads to more toilet seal failures than any other factor. On a normal seal, the flange rests on the top of the floor, and there isn't a lot of space between flange and china. The plastic squeezes out of the wax and doesn't seal to anything. These gaskets are useful when the space is thicker, as in when the flange doesn't rest on the floor, but is either flush or below floor level, but you should otherwise use a plain bol-wax with no frills.

Amateurs look at these things and probably think: "This one's bigger, it must be better." A great many floors have been replaced because of the wrong gasket. I notice that Homey's Toilet-in-a-Box (American Standard) has the plastic insert in the supplied wax.

When a toilet is leaking and the bolts aren't broken, I expect to find:
a) plastic insert
b) cad-plated bolts
c) swollen plastic premade supply tube
d) straight valve coming out of the wall or angle valve from the floor
e) toilet was installed by a handyman, flooring installer, homeowner
f) any combination of the above

[PLUMBER RICK]

After setting hundreds of toilets.I firmly believe that if the w/c is not dapped down there is too high of a probability that over time movement,I know you secured it when you put it in, will cause the ring to fail.

If you guys have had the oppotunity to set your fixtures with uniform surfaces you may have had better LUCK with not using a sealant,Plumbers on the other hand have had so much experience involving all the variables involved with completing this fixture under it's exsisting conditions.

adam, only hundreds:D, try many, many thousands:eek:

very true, if a toilet is not caulked it will move. in the older days with older toilet there were 2 bolts securing it to the flange and 2 screws securing it to the floor. these toilets had a larger foot print and typically didn't move.

i can tell all of you from years of doing service, that an un-caulked toilet is much , much worse than a caulked toilet. a properly installed toilet will not leak unless you blow it out trying to plunge a main line stoppage.

an un-caulked toilet is not only a very unsanitary situation, but will move unless the floor and toilet base are perfectly flat. remember there are only 2 screws securing a floor mounted, bottom outlet toilet made in the last 30+ years.

if the toilet is properly installed, it will not leak. although i've had dozens of calls from owners allowing the flooring contractor reinstall the toilet after the new hardwood, tile, vinyl floor was installed. some get it right, most get it wrong. stacking of wax rings has a better potential of leaking than a single wax ring.

maybe i will take pictures of what a floor looks like when i pull a non caulked toilet:eek:

very few leaking toilets go un noticed and damage floors and ceilings to the point that has been described. a hardwood floor has the highest potential for damage from leaks. also in my experiance, most toilet leaks are not from leaking bowl waxes, but from flex line, angle stops, ballcocks, refill tubes. so in a way the caulking prevented the outside water from geting under the toilet. please show me a bathroom where everyone had 100% proper aim:D

if it wasn't for the caulking, you might as well piss under the toilet:eek:

you guys do as you want, us plumbers will do what is correct and what we know is proven by years and thousands of installations and follow ups.

not trying to stir the pot, just showing examples of real life experiance in the trade.

rick.

[garager]

Wow, I'll say it again, "I do use caulking". Ummm, in the past thread, I also said I use plastic shims. What I have to say about the caulking of a toilet, is just an opinion guys, thats all, and I'm not the only one with this opinion. Also for the support of a toilet, I do not just rely on the caulking, thus the reason I use plastic shims...

It is code, so I go by the code...

Now I responded back to Dog, because he doesn't like me being in here. Also if you plumbers don't want me reading what you have to say and talking with all of you, I'll just quietly leave, just say the word.

In no way am I trying to cause problems, its just plumbing is part of my life too, even without a plumbing license I will continue learning plumbing. As I have said before, I don't do the heavy plumbing. I put in faucets, toilets, sinks, etc. Whether dog has a problem with that or not. I enjoy being in here, and the dog is going to bark at me anytime I have something to say, thats what I have to deal with. But I'm honored that Dog is reading my posts. And dog, how many times have I given a wrong response. How many times have I ever given an answer to a question, in plumbing I think once. The caulking of a toilet was an opinion...

Which in turn, I knew all the plumbers would jump into the topic and give their opinion too, of course the code gets brought in also. Freedom of speech, right Dog......

[drtyhands]

As I will look to you Garager when I am unsure how to make a structure sound:D







p.s. The hole is big enough to drive a cement truck through:p

[Herk]

In no way am I trying to cause problems, its just plumbing is part of my life too, even without a plumbing license I will continue learning plumbing.

It's a simple fact that there are places where someone who is not a plumber takes care of minor plumbing. I spent a couple of years at a state mental hospital where the designation was "maintenance craftsman" and you had to pass a state test covering everything - plumbing, painting, tile, electrical, and so on. They hired people for the tasks they had been trained in, but everybody took the same test and some had taken it a number of times without passing it.

Many government agencies here, such as schools, senior citizen homes, and the like, have full-time maintenance people who are not licensed to do plumbing. They do minor repairs and call a plumber for new fixtures or remodeling or major repairs. (usually . . .)

The fact that someone wants to learn more about it is far better, in my estimation, than someone who doesn't want to learn.

[drtyhands]

As I will look to you Garager when I am unsure how to make a structure sound:D







p.s. The hole is big enough to drive a cement truck through:p
I just went back through and read.

Just for the record,
Some of us welcome all points of views as they add to discussion and broaden all minds no matter where posted on this forum.Who cares where here it's posted.I would be very dissapointed if I were to offer input somewhere other than plumbing section(I do have somewhat of a life) and was not recieved in a positive manner by the populous.Perfect example,when I first joined and occasionaly since I've needed help and the woodies with others have always taken care of my interests the best they could.I have been corrected when wrong so misinformation won't travel further.

Awesome forum isn't it:cool:

ADAM