Flush broke CI, 4' concrete, Historic

[ericwagner4]

We went to check out a sewer leak today on the beach below Convention Hall in Asbury Park NJ
(Bruce Springsteen made it famous, amongst others)
tell me how you guys would repair this:
It is a beautiful Historic building on concrete pilings on the beach almost reaching the ocean
The underneath of the building is the beach sand - wide open & you can walk & crawl to the exposed sewer & roof drain pipes
above the sand is a 4' thick concrete floor
There is a 3" CI pipe broke flush w/ the bottom of the floor
the bottom of the floor (exposed to salt/moisture) is in pretty bad shape already (after all the building is about 80 yrs old)
about 8 - old school - 5' floor drain urinals tie into the 3" CI
(all sewer is somehow tied in in this 4' thick floor)
The reason I mention its Historic, they try their utmost to do as little demo as possible, as to not cause future ongoing problems
We do not want to use a chipping hammer to break around pipe as the concrete all around is liable to crumble & who knows what we may run into
My ONLY thought is to buy a toilet repair flange (4X3 w/ rubber gasket at bottom), cut off closet ring, stick gasket side inside 3" CI & somehow adapt from this to the existing 4" PVC sewer
what do my McGyver plumbing friends think?

[drtyhands]

As much as you want to please the customer your going to have to do the proper instalation.You have a pretty good idea allready.You have to get topside access and replace the penetration.

Don't fall asleep on the sand.We used to do a few customs on pylings.Sand,babes,dolphins and....... FLEAS!!!!:eek:

[toolaholic]

Sorry ,I'm not good at hand holding. This not aimed at You.
The defination of the customer from hell - "I want what I want, but I don't know what I want'
And when I get it,I won't like it !!!

[plumbdog10]

If you and they want to save this historic R&R venue, which I agree it is (saw Bruce at the LA Colusium in about 1984), it sounds like they need more than "jerry rigging". Propose a price to fix it correctly, and walk away if they don't like it.

[PIPES]

What about using a concrete coring company, grind off the flange and have them use a 4"or 5" core bit centered over the remaining pipe. It gives you a clean hole and no vibration.

[Herk]

use a 4"or 5" core bit centered over the remaining pipe.

I was thinking along the same lines - core drill with a long extension. 4' is a long drill!

[ericwagner4]

We will be disassembling old broke sewer this morning
the problem w/ core drilling is:
since there are about 8 floor drained urinals above all tying into this 1 - 3" CI coming through the bottom of the 4' floor to underside of exposed building, i would think there are going to be old CI fittings everywhere - traps, y's etc.
so, if we were to start opening concrete, it may be that we would have to open a LOT of that concrete to find where we could properly transition from CI to plastic
conceivably, this could entail tearing out all 4' concrete floor underneath all 8 very valuable urinals just to expose enough of the sewer to repair
this could break up old nice floor/wall tile which there is no replacement etc.
this will never fly due to the Historic nature & old condition of building
the owners logically wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of the building for this repair
i believe we do not have a choice whether to do a proper repair here or not
we will repair w/ least destruction as possible & make sure there are no leaks
this area underneath the building is regularly checked for leaks by the maintenace crew due to the homeless regularly squatting there
if there is a problem in the future, they may have to tear out entire bathroom, at least we tried our hardest to resolve the problem & cause the least damage
after all this is not a wood framed house where anything can be repaired and replaced - almost all repairs here require a lot of attention
it is a multimillion dollar Historic building where they spend an enormous amount of money keeping it look exactly as it did 80 yrs. ago - outside & inside

[drtyhands]

We will be disassembling old broke sewer this morning
the problem w/ core drilling is:
since there are about 8 floor drained urinals above all tying into this 1 - 3" CI coming through the bottom of the 4' floor to underside of exposed building, i would think there are going to be old CI fittings everywhere - traps, y's etc.
so, if we were to start opening concrete, it may be that we would have to open a LOT of that concrete to find where we could properly transition from CI to plastic
conceivably, this could entail tearing out all 4' concrete floor underneath all 8 very valuable urinals just to expose enough of the sewer to repair
this could break up old nice floor/wall tile which there is no replacement etc.
this will never fly due to the Historic nature & old condition of building
the owners logically wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of the building for this repair
i believe we do not have a choice whether to do a proper repair here or not
we will repair w/ least destruction as possible & make sure there are no leaks
this area underneath the building is regularly checked for leaks by the maintenace crew due to the homeless regularly squatting there
if there is a problem in the future, they may have to tear out entire bathroom, at least we tried our hardest to resolve the problem & cause the least damage
after all this is not a wood framed house where anything can be repaired and replaced - almost all repairs here require a lot of attention
it is a multimillion dollar Historic building where they spend an enormous amount of money keeping it look exactly as it did 80 yrs. ago - outside & inside
So why are you not submitting a proposal for an enormous amount of money to remedy the problem properly.

I know what your up against,believe me;)

What are you looking for us to say:)

Adam

[ericwagner4]

So why are you not submitting a proposal for an enormous amount of money to remedy the problem properly.

I know what your up against,believe me;)

What are you looking for us to say:)

Adam

adam
i was looking for a better/alternative repair fitting than cutting off a repair flange & using that like i stated in 1st post
not only that, the owners give my father 99% of his work & just about pay both of our salaries
going to them & telling them the ONLY resolution is to tear out entire 4' concrete floor (possibly condeming entire building as well as the Paramount Theater which is attached), 8 urinals, & who knows what else in a Historic - 1 of a kind building - isnt how we work

[drtyhands]

adam
i was looking for a better/alternative repair fitting than cutting off a repair flange & using that like i stated in 1st post
not only that, the owners give my father 99% of his work & just about pay both of our salaries
going to them & telling them the ONLY resolution is to tear out entire 4' concrete floor (possibly condeming entire building as well as the Paramount Theater which is attached), 8 urinals, & who knows what else in a Historic - 1 of a kind building - isnt how we work
I don't know of any other more permanent applications based on the info at this time.

Of course I understand how important your customers comfort is.

Maybe a picture or two can help.

Macguyvering is not my specialty:)

I would like to see you make your customer happy and still put something in that's going to work properly and at the same time last more than a year or two.

[drtyhands]

Can you start chipping from underneath till you get to some good pipe you can connect to?

[BHD]

If you want a McGyver solution,

get a PVC heating oven that will take the 3" PVC or what ever size you need, heat it until it is pliable and either form it around a smaller pipe, (I think you will need to work it around a mandrel or core of some type to stretch and reduce it' diameter, of course the closer to the finished size you can be the better), then re heat it and stick the smaller end into the broken off PVC, and reach in with a gloved hand and expand it back out to as close to the interior of the broken CI, and then glue or couple it back up to the existing plumbing, (electricians use PVC benders to make sweeps),

then use if necessary some oakum or similar and caulking to seal it up, (but if you even jsut had 4" to 6" in the CI pipe I would think it would be enough.

the other possibility is (I have not seen "expansion joints in pluming"), but I have seen expansion joints in PVC, electrical services, and it consists of a tube that slips inside of another tube, maybe one halve of one of those would work with "making it" as I first described,
http://www.onlineelectricsupplies.com/electric-fittings.cfm/subcatid/123

or even something like these bell reducers, on EBay Item number: 200164910003
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-PVC-Electrical-Conduit-Swedge-Reducers_W0QQitemZ200164910003QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1 17490QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

maybe the bell end on some conduits, http://www.alliedsupport.com/images/PVCcollage.jpg
a basic catalog of electrical PVC fittings,
http://www.alliedsupport.com/literature/pdf/ATC_PVC_Catalog.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

some one was showing a number days ago, some type of interior pipe repair, where they made up an epoxy mat and then inserted it on a expandable tube, and then expanded the epoxy mat out into the inside of the pipe making a new lining, now put or grind it off nice and flat, have some one with that type of repair and put a new piece on top and seam the two together with the repair boot. then you have new pipe on top a good seal and nearly no chance of leaks.

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12559&highlight=pipe+liner

[toolaholic]

WOW,THIS JOB JUST CHANGED !!!!! The homeless need a 60 day window, To move that broken guitar and warm beer. Of course it will be at owners expense. This is CALIF. RIGHT !

[drtyhands]

WOW,THIS JOB JUST CHANGED !!!!! The homeless need a 60 day window, To move that broken guitar and warm beer. Of course it will be at owners expense. This is CALIF. RIGHT !
What are you talking about TOOL.
Yes,this is PinkoCali.The OWNER has to provide relocation and housing on top of the 60 day notice.:rolleyes:

[drtyhands]

That's some pretty good research BHD.

[gear junkie]

Macguyvering is not my specialty:)

I would like to see you make your customer happy and still put something in that's going to work properly and at the same time last more than a year or two.
I'm a Seabee so Maguyvering is my specialty (I once made a honda mud pump work with bamboo, saran wrap and tie wire in PI) but even I say this is a job to be done right or not at all. I think Dog's advice was the best.

[ericwagner4]

u guys that say do it right technically are right
but,
doing it right would completely shut down men's bathroom which would mean cancelling soon huge concerts - no bathroom - no shows
jackhammering the 4' floor due to its degraded state could cause the building to be condemned, which could also shut down the connected Paramount Theater & soon upcoming huge shows
so instead of fixing the leak for a couple hundred - let's do it right & possibly cost millions in repairs, replacements, engineers, cancelled concerts & shows & even possibly damaging one of the biggest Historic buildings on the Jersey Shore to the extent it will be deemed inhabitable
guess thats why my dad's been in business over 50 yrs. & has decided on the couple hundred temporary fix

[drtyhands]

Well,
Sooner or later it's going to have to be done right.I hope you get the opportunity to submit a bid.

So do I have the wrong picture in my mind.The three inch cast was broken off at the underside of the concrete.Why could you not chip it out?

Just curious.

[ericwagner4]

yea
sooner or later it will have 2 be fixed right - as w/ a lot of other stuff in this building
the CI is broke off underneath bottom of floor
bottom of floor is exposed beach area & in bad shape
8 floor drain urinals all tie in to this (all tied in in the 4' thick concrete floor)
in order to open enough concrete to do a proper repair could be a nightmare
not to mention, where the pipe is broke its about 2' above sand
not too much head room
the CI is in such bad shape, it probably all has to be replaced

[drtyhands]

Well when you do it will be nice working in the sand,it's a breeze to move around.

[gear junkie]

Eric, can you post some pictures? I can't figure out what it the problem looks like. Could you do pipe relining until the winter when you can permantley fix the problem.

[ericwagner4]

Well when you do it will be nice working in the sand,it's a breeze to move around.

actually
if those 8 urinals werent draining peoples beer urine from concerts on the sand 4 god knows how long - it would be ok if u like chipping concrete lying on your back in the sand w/ 2' head room for hours on end
not too sure about pipe relining?
does it work if pipe is broke off flush w/ concrete ceiling?
oh & there are concerts/plays/shows all year long in this building

[gear junkie]

Eric, check your PM.

[toolaholic]

LEASE PORTABLE TOILETS, DO IT ONCE ,DO IT RIGHT! Beware of customers that want shortcuts . No matter what They say up front , You'll be the fall guy!
Are They thinking crumbling concrete and rusted out cast iron has some historical value?
Get real! This isn't the roman ruins .

[drtyhands]

actually
if those 8 urinals werent draining peoples beer urine from concerts on the sand 4 god knows how long - it would be ok if u like chipping concrete lying on your back in the sand w/ 2' head room for hours on end
not too sure about pipe relining?
does it work if pipe is broke off flush w/ concrete ceiling?
oh & there are concerts/plays/shows all year long in this building

That's why you make the BIG BUCKS son:cool:

Just teasing.......I'll let it go

Keep posting,I like hearing about your interesting jobs.

[yasudaplumbing]

As a Temporary fix:

Drill a series of 1/2" holes around the pipe approx. 1" apart and minimum 2" deep. This is a must.
Make sure the drill bit is at least 1/4" away from the pipe.
Use a 5" grinder with a diamond blade to connect the outer edges of the holes.
Hand chisel the cement away from the pipe.
Drill and demo a larger area to accomodate screws from a worm gear clamp for a 3" husky no hub coupling and a 1/4" drive ratchet w/ a 5/16" short socket.
Or demo a larger area to to accomodate a 3" C.I. Bell with a Ty Seal Gasket.Or get a Target Saw with a diamond blade, turn it upside down, make a series of cuts, and hand chisel it out.

Instead of hand chiseling, I probably would use a small chipping gun that uses SDS Plus bits. The blow from a SDS Plus gun is so soft that it wouldn't jar anything loose, especially on a four foot thick floor.
This is after perforating the cement with a blade first though.

Make sure you drill a series of holes first. This will be your relief area while you are chipping away. If you don't have these, the impact energy will be directed straight to the pipe and may damage it in the process.

[drtyhands]

Very nice Yasuda.
Welcome to the forum:)

[westcoastplumber]

Yasuda, nice post.

I would recommend the same, or to core drill, then slide in a new section. I wish we had better pictures then just one of the beach.

On a different note, same subject, the deterioration of the cast iron is due to the salt water, so don't forget to add painting the pipe in your bid;):D

[ericwagner4]

sry guys - didnt have my camera when i looked at job
picture on post was taken from internet
if anyone knows how to turn a scanned sketch file into a picture file, i could make a rough drawing, scan it, transfer into My Pictures & post that
at least then you would see what im up against
but, like i stated in previous posts:
there is about 2' height between sand & underside of this 4' concrete floor
(i guess i could spend a day digging it out to do repairs suggested)
but, inside of CI is so deteriorated it looks as if all sewer pipe/fittings to all 8 urinals would need to be changed to do a proper "done right " repair
all pipe fittings are buried in this 4' concrete floor below 8 floor outlet urinals
maybe a relining co. could do something w/out tearing out/apart building?

[westcoastplumber]

sry guys - didnt have my camera when i looked at job
picture on post was taken from internet
if anyone knows how to turn a scanned sketch file into a picture file, i could make a rough drawing, scan it, transfer into My Pictures & post that
at least then you would see what im up against
but, like i stated in previous posts:
there is about 2' height between sand & underside of this 4' concrete floor
(i guess i could spend a day digging it out to do repairs suggested)
but, inside of CI is so deteriorated it looks as if all sewer pipe/fittings to all 8 urinals would need to be changed to do a proper "done right " repair
all pipe fittings are buried in this 4' concrete floor below 8 floor outlet urinals
maybe a relining co. could do something w/out tearing out/apart building?


Why would anyone place a main and a trunk line picking up 8 urinals in the concrete, especially 4' thick?

Have you considered a a re-route? maybe on the exterior, hidden? Liner companies are great, the only problem is you need to cut out the tie ins, and if the tie in's are imbedded in concrete, then you are in the same bucket.

I would say re-route looks really good right now, a complete re-drain.;):D

Lines imbedded in concrete need to stay imbedded:p

[drtyhands]

What are the inspectors refering to in our UPC to enforce painting of pipe under a structure?

1.I've done many houses on the sand.And was never required.
2.Who's going to paint it every 4 years after salt breaks it down pain like T/P in the rain.
3.Are you going to paint your pipe under raised foundation.
4.Is that lasagna I smell Zeljka cooking.
5.I'll be there around eight.

[ericwagner4]

this building is over 80 yrs. old
the urinals are 5' high & the drain is below the floor
(the urinals have floor outlet not wall outlet)
the only way to keep them & repipe is to tear out floor
tearing out floor could compromise structural integrity of building due to its deteriorated state
according to engineer
trying to repair leak MacGyver style, not condemn a busy Historic building

[drtyhands]

Eric,your good man,it's done.The customer wants a band-aid.Your Dad gave him one.Some of us do things different and have the option to do so.

It's all good:D

[westcoastplumber]

What are the inspectors refering to in our UPC to enforce painting of pipe under a structure?

1.I've done many houses on the sand.And was never required.
2.Who's going to paint it every 4 years after salt breaks it down pain like T/P in the rain.
3.Are you going to paint your pipe under raised foundation.
4.Is that lasagna I smell Zeljka cooking.
5.I'll be there around eight.



Oh Adam, I have a place setting for you and Melli, dinner is getting cold while we are waiting........

There is some inspectors down here in the beach cities requiring cast be painted, I have never been called on it, but I have been told by a reliable source.....Not in the UPC.

Maybe tomarrow if I have time, I will call the head inspectors of the beach cities to find out, or if the wind is still blowing, you can call and let me know what you find out:D

[drtyhands]

Melissa says she's going to have to take a raincheck and thanks you kindly.

[yasudaplumbing]

sry guys - didnt have my camera when i looked at job
picture on post was taken from internet
if anyone knows how to turn a scanned sketch file into a picture file, i could make a rough drawing, scan it, transfer into My Pictures & post that
at least then you would see what im up against
but, like i stated in previous posts:
there is about 2' height between sand & underside of this 4' concrete floor
(i guess i could spend a day digging it out to do repairs suggested)
but, inside of CI is so deteriorated it looks as if all sewer pipe/fittings to all 8 urinals would need to be changed to do a proper "done right " repair
all pipe fittings are buried in this 4' concrete floor below 8 floor outlet urinals
maybe a relining co. could do something w/out tearing out/apart building?


I feel that regardless of what type of repair you decide on, you are gonna have to dig out a good size pathway and work area anyway. You are really lucky you have this option.
Just dig it out enough so you can get really comfortable while on your back at arms length, to me this is way better than trying to work on a ladder while looking up at the floor (this is when you add on chiropractic costs).

Get one of those black poly cement mixing tubs (2'x3') and tie a rope on each end, this will be your transporter for your tools/materials while your are under there with your helper. Don't forget your faceshield, safety glasses, and earplugs. Oh yeah, the most important tool......the radio.

Lining may be the answer to prolong the inevitable. Make a note on your invoice stating that your warranty will only cover up to the Point Of Connection. Anything past that is theirs. Also state that a major reroute will be necessary in the future. As to when? Tell them to get back to you later.....your crystal ball is on order.

Through my experience, Federal, State, City, County don't do preventative maintenance. They just deal with repairs as needed. The dept. heads don't want the responsibility of spending funds unnessarily because other people tend to point fingers.

I just had another idea, instead of using a husky no hub coupling or C.I. bell, squirt a bunch of good caulking (elastomeric, butyl, I'm not sure what holds up in your parts) on the existing 3" pipe, next push on a PVC fitting of your choice and strap/secure (<---LOL, sound familiar?<inside joke>) the crap out of it.
But make sure this is your last connection after you have prefabbed and connected the other POC.
By using a PVC fitting, minimal demolition is required. And the caulking will hopefully prevent further rusting from the outside.

Tracy

[ericwagner4]

thanks for all the replies guys
you guys have some really good ideas
ill go over solutions w/ the bosses & see what happens