Pipe Runs for DC

[FSK]

I want to add some permanent pipe runs for my DC, but not sure which is the most effective way to do it. I'm guessing flex hose is not too efficent, so I'm thinking 4" ABS or 4" galv pipe. They are about the same price here. I'm thinking the plastic would generate more static, but easier to handle/assemble.

Any thoughts, ideas or experience on which would better?

Thanks,
Frank

[BadgerDave]

I wouldn't be too concerned about static if you're just talking about a home shop. You're correct that the ABS would be much easier to assemble. I can't believe that you can get 4" galvanized pipe for the same price as 4" ABS plastic. That is unless you're paying WAY too much for that ABS.

[FSK]

I wouldn't be too concerned about static if you're just talking about a home shop. You're correct that the ABS would be much easier to assemble. I can't believe that you can get 4" galvanized pipe for the same price as 4" ABS plastic. That is unless you're paying WAY too much for that ABS.

It's about $1/ft for either at HD. Canadian $ that is ...

[agent511]

$Canada = $US these days I hear

[oldslowchevy]

wow ...our money went up in value? lol sad but true

[Woussko]

You might take a look at 4" flue pipe and price it. Being galv iron you can ground it. Be sure to measure OD and ID to be sure you can connect to it properly.

UPDATE: Forget the above. This will just end up a big P.I.T.A.

[oldslowchevy]

to many leak issues with flue pipe woussko, to many seams to deal with and not sure if it would handle a vacaum

[BHD]

when using plastic pipe one can jsut tape a small bare wire on to the piping and then ground the wire out some place convent and it will keep the static down by discharging some of the static build up,

some good info on metal and plastic and home shop set ups on dust collection and the static discharge and potentials.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html

[Wood_Junkie]

wow ...our money went up in value? lol sad but true

Not entirely true... The US dollar dropped significantly in value in the last few months.

[oldslowchevy]

Not entirely true... The US dollar dropped significantly in value in the last few months.



now that i belive, is that why a gallon of milk cost me $5.29 last night and aloaf of bread is now $2.49?

this is just the begining folks:eek:

[Wood_Junkie]

now that i belive, is that why a gallon of milk cost me $5.29 last night and aloaf of bread is now $2.49?

this is just the begining folks:eek:



this is just the begining folks:eek:

Hopefully you have a real idea of how true this is. On the basis of some very expensive analysts recomemendations a few months ago I invested in a variety of gold companies and gold mining companies. Post-housing market meltdown these have taken off. After the Fed sacrified the dollar with their last rate drop of 0.50% the US economy was exposed for being as shaky as it is (we are a debtor nation, have no doubt). Today's cut of 0.25% is further evidence, but now the Fed is afraid of kicking off hyperinflation.

Anyway, this is wayyy off topic for a tool forum. But, please assess your financial situations and prepare for tough times ahead.

[rdowns]

$1.00 USD = $1.0585 CDN 50 year high for our Canuck Buck against the US dollar. Just shy of the all time high of $1.0618. So why does my table saw, miter saw, wire, lumber, toaster,ski boots,appliances, jeans and BEER still cost 25%-75% more!! Ridgid, HD, Best Buy, GM???? I saw a gas Range at HD online (.com &.ca) exactly the same model, manufactured and delivered from Mexico...... $1,349.00 US in Buffalo NY $2,399.00 CDN Toronto!!! We even get screwed on our screws!

[agent511]

First of all, I believe you have it backwards. $1.00 US = 0.95 CDn, or in other words, $1.00 CDN = $ 1.05 USD. The Canadian dollar is now worth more than an American dollar!

It is because the US dollar has been dropping against other currencies.

It has nothing to do with why someone in Florida paid $5 something for a gallon of milk. The value of the dollar does not affect the cost of goods made and sold in the US internally. If prices overall were indeed going up, that would be called inflation. And one thing we do not have at the moment is inflation.

[Wood_Junkie]

The value of the dollar does not affect the cost of goods made and sold in the US internally. If prices overall were indeed going up, that would be called inflation. And one thing we do not have at the moment is inflation.

Au contraire.
"The Consumer Price Index (CPI) - the benchmark measure for inflation - is meaningless for millions of consumers. The CPI is compiled by officials at the Office for National Statistics using a "basket" of 650 goods. However, economists argue that this method fails to take into account many of the trappings of middle class living."

"US Inflation and the Falling Dollar - You're being lied to! " http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article746.html
which ties back to a previous article which is very worthwhile reading if you have any interest in wealth / lifestyle preservation....

How the Dow is already getting killed! http://moneyandmarkets.com/Issues.aspx?newsletterentryid=551
Ignore the subscription sales crap, and just home in on the actual price / purchasing power information. Feel free to verify it independently. It's scary.
Non-government economists and statisticians put our *real* inflation at about 10%. Real, as in, actually applies to most of the people living in this country. Not the notional buyer-of-the-650-goods-basket.

I am definitely not trying to start a heated debate, or a flame war ,or anything. Just trying to do as we all do on this forum in general.. pass along helpful advice and information. Just so happens this isn't tool related. ;-)

[jhill3264]

Umm. Yeah. So OK, back to the original topic.

I'm not sure exactly what types of pipe the original poster was referring to. For plastic ABS (like schedule 40 PVC) would be very heavy and way overkill. Likewise, 4" Galvanized pipe, if you mean like in water pipe, would also be very heavy and a real pain to install with threading and all. Or maybe those aren't exactly what he meant, but on a forum hosted by a company that has it's roots in plumbing what do you expect ;-)

The typical suggestions are thinwall S&D PVC pipe (ASTM 2729) or snaplock HVAC duct - 26#. Yes, one is plastic, the other galvanized sheet metal. Tons of arguments for and against plastic, so I'll leave that part alone for now.

You need to really look at whether your dust collector is up to the task of adding ductwork. In today's game, 4" is a little small and you'll find that if you have more than 5-10 feet of pipe with more than 2-3 elbows, you'll have so much resistance that your airflow will be severely reduced. A system that worked OK with just some flex hose connected directly to a machine, may really disappoint you when you hook it up to permanent ductwork. I know, I tried it, and now I'm disappointed :-( Technically, it works, and at least it works well enough to transport most of the chips that get directed right into the dust ports, but it doesn't get the really fine dust that just floats around near the ports.

So the next step is to go up to 6" pipe. The problem with 6", is if your dust collector simply can't move enough air (CFM) to keep the dust in suspension (about 4000 feet per second), you may end up with clogs. You may be able to get by with 6" pipe for the main ducts (horizontal), but have to go back to 4" for the (vertical) drops. That's still better than 4" all the way back to the collector.

I'm planning to redo my ductwork with 6" S&D PVC pipe. If I find that my dust collector can't keep up with 6" ductwork all around, I'll probably try the hybrid system I mentioned with 4" drops while I begin preparing preparing to buy a new dust collector with more CFM.

Jim

[FSK]

Umm. Yeah. So OK, back to the original topic.

I'm not sure exactly what types of pipe the original poster was referring to. For plastic ABS (like schedule 40 PVC) would be very heavy and way overkill. Likewise, 4" Galvanized pipe, if you mean like in water pipe, would also be very heavy and a real pain to install with threading and all. Or maybe those aren't exactly what he meant, but on a forum hosted by a company that has it's roots in plumbing what do you expect ;-)

The typical suggestions are thinwall S&D PVC pipe (ASTM 2729) or snaplock HVAC duct - 26#. Yes, one is plastic, the other galvanized sheet metal. Tons of arguments for and against plastic, so I'll leave that part alone for now.

You need to really look at whether your dust collector is up to the task of adding ductwork. In today's game, 4" is a little small and you'll find that if you have more than 5-10 feet of pipe with more than 2-3 elbows, you'll have so much resistance that your airflow will be severely reduced. A system that worked OK with just some flex hose connected directly to a machine, may really disappoint you when you hook it up to permanent ductwork. I know, I tried it, and now I'm disappointed :-( Technically, it works, and at least it works well enough to transport most of the chips that get directed right into the dust ports, but it doesn't get the really fine dust that just floats around near the ports.

So the next step is to go up to 6" pipe. The problem with 6", is if your dust collector simply can't move enough air (CFM) to keep the dust in suspension (about 4000 feet per second), you may end up with clogs. You may be able to get by with 6" pipe for the main ducts (horizontal), but have to go back to 4" for the (vertical) drops. That's still better than 4" all the way back to the collector.

I'm planning to redo my ductwork with 6" S&D PVC pipe. If I find that my dust collector can't keep up with 6" ductwork all around, I'll probably try the hybrid system I mentioned with 4" drops while I begin preparing preparing to buy a new dust collector with more CFM.

Jim

Thanks for re-jacking the thread. The idea was to use the S&D PVC or the galv. heating duct. My runs are only 10-12 feet anyway.

So even though my DC has only a 4" port, using 6" ducting for the mains will be beneficial? I'm guessing it's less restrictive and doesn't affect pressure. Will opening it to 6" for 5 ft of a 10 foot total run (including drops) make any significant difference?

Frank

[jhill3264]

Here's a muddy answer - it might. A lot depends on how much oomph is behind that 4" intake in your dust collector. A lot of manufacturers actually choke the inlet size down on purpose to keep you from burning up an under-powered motor. Generally they have it set up so that if you run the collector wide-open, no pipe or hose, the manufactured restriction simply will not allow enough air flow to burn out the motor. The problem with adding ductwork (or even long flex hoses) is that all it does add even more restriction, therefore less airflow.

Although you need some fancy tools to actually measure true airflow (CFM), you can do a lot with just an amp meter. Basically, the motor works harder (more Amps) when its moving more air. You can try this yourself. Remove any flex hose or ductwork, turn on the unit, wait for it to come up to speed, then check the amp draw. Hopefully, it's already lower than the max rating on the blower motor. Now start adding your flex hose, ductwork, whatever, and check the amps again - it's probably lower, maybe a LOT lower.

This cheapo method of measuring won't tell how much CFM you're actually losing, but it does give you a way to see just how much change different configurations can make. What you want to shoot for, in any configuration, is having the Amps drop as little as possible. You will quickly see how 90 degree turns and those dreaded 4" to 2.5" adapters really have an effect.

I started off just "testing" the idea out with about 15 feet of 4" pipe. I noticed that the Amp draw only dropped about .5 Amps, so I figured it wasn't too bad. All of a sudden, I'm running pipe all over, putting the collector in the corner, a few branches, etc. By the time I was done, my shortest run was close to 20 feet, with a 4" flex hose after that, and the longest run was almost 30 feet, 6 elbows, and then flex host that choked down to a 2.5" fitting for the router table. On the shortest run, my AMP draw had dropped 1.5 Amps; on the longest run, with the 2.5 adapter, the Amp draw had dropped almost 3 Amps. :-(

Of course, it still felt like it was "sucking" pretty good if you put your hand over it the opening. If you stuffed the end of the hose into a pile of sawdust, it picked it right up. But I just know that it's not doing everything it could.

If your particular blower has a high SP rating, it may withstand the restriction better than mine did. But, since most dust collectors are designed to move air at low SP ratings, it will most likely be affected the same way. My goal in replacing the 4" ductwork with 6" is to reduce the amount of loss due to restriction in the pipe. The caveat will be whether my dust collector will have enough guts to keep the airspeed high enough to keep the dust in suspension.

One word of caution. If you start modifying the blower inlet or housing to reduce restriction, don't run it more than a few seconds and DO NOT do this at all unless you have an Amp meter to measure what you're doing. You can open up your blower beyond manufacturing spec, but only if your going to be adding some restriction down the line with ductwork.

Jim