What kind of pipe is this?

[gear junkie]

My friends were putting in a concrete pad and broke through the water main while digging footers. The water main was blue, 3/4" and felt like PVC or CPVC but was flexible like pex. The wall thickness was thin, almost like type L copper thickness. I was able to fix the pipe with a sharkbite slip coupling and the repair passed inspection. Any ideas?

[DUNBAR]

BLUE MAX


And the product failure brought on tons of lawsuits and liability claims.

In KY and OH you cannot sell a house with the main line as this product will break eventually.


It probably would of been a good idea to replace the entire line when the damage occured as it will be coming out of the ground someday in the future.

[gear junkie]

How do you fix it? CPVC fittings and glue?

[plumberscrack]

We called it Big Blue 'round these parts.

Glue won't work

Takes a special gripper fitting like a sharkbite but bigger.

I've been able to fish a new copper service through this pipe.

[TOPDAWG]

Don't try to fix it! replace it. my brother-in-law who lives in Cincinnati had it as his water main. first break was in the center of his yard two months after he had it repaired it split where it entered the house, what a mess.

[Crappy days]

Don't try to fix it! replace it. my brother-in-law who lives in Cincinnati had it as his water main. first break was in the center of his yard two months after he had it repaired it split where it entered the house, what a mess.

Yes, definitely replace it . Its just a matter of time until it leaks again. I don't know the name of the pipe but we call it blue tube/big blue. The repair coupling/transition fitting we use is made out of PVC. They are similar to the original Qest fittings but larger and blue tube by male adapter.

[NHMaster3015]

Very nasty stuff. Many law suits, much heart ache. Rip it out and start over.

[westcoastplumber]

My friends were putting in a concrete pad and broke through the water main while digging footers. The water main was blue, 3/4" and felt like PVC or CPVC but was flexible like pex. The wall thickness was thin, almost like type L copper thickness. I was able to fix the pipe with a sharkbite slip coupling and the repair passed inspection. Any ideas?



Hi Ben,

glad this popped up again, has your repair held? to you, is this a good way to make a repair? have you heard from the customer with an leaks??

[TOPDAWG]

The name of the pipe is BLUE MAX, talked to my brother-in-law who had to have it replaced and he said that was the name of it.

[Aaron91]

Out here it's referred to as Big Blue.

Pure Junk.

[gear junkie]

Hi Ben,

glad this popped up again, has your repair held? to you, is this a good way to make a repair? have you heard from the customer with an leaks??
Yes the sharkbite has held up with no problems.

[proplumb]

blue brute is used here for all the new mains and there has not been any issues accept for installer error. it is only used for large mains though, we use copper or kitec for resi services off the main

[mtnman1100]

When I worked in CA we had light blue polybutylene which is the same as Qest pipe. If the customer can only afford a repair don't warranty it. It should all be replaced. We even had a supplier Water Works, that had brass repair couplings with stainless steel inserts.

[haycad]

we call it big blue its made by qest your not doing yourself or your customer any favors by "fixing it" they will just have more problems. REPLACE IT

[NHMaster3015]

http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/nov94/assets/menu.gif Leaks Plague Polybutylene Plumbing



A controversy regarding the use of polybutylene pipe (PB) raises concerns about its reliability and use. The problem is the pipes often sprout leaks, to the dismay of many Arizonans who have the pipes installed in their homes and now face unwelcomed plumbing bills.
To many homeowners the onslaught of the problem is sudden and unexpected. A plumber described the situation: "First you hear a bang, then there's a sudden drop in water pressure. Water then starts coming from pipes you didn't know existed, causing soggy floors or holes in ceilings that are destructive and expensive to repair."
Sufficient numbers of homeowners have shared this unnerving experience to provoke various lawsuits. Consumer complaints in Texas prompted the largest class action in U.S. history against the manufacturers of PB. This action resulted in a $750 million settlement.
In Arizona, two lawsuits are pending in Maricopa County Superior Court to recover damages from PB manufacturers for Arizona homeowners with PB failure. One of the cases is a class action suit similar to the one filed in Texas.
Average costs for PB-related home repairs are about $4,000, says Carl Triphahn of the Piping Industry Progress Education Trust, a contractor's organization in Phoenix. In some cases, homeowners are finding that homeowners insurance companies will either cancel their coverage when extensive damage is caused by PB or refuse coverage to homes piped with PB.
PB is a flexible, easy-to-cut gray plastic that is put together with simple crimp connectors. Introduced in the late 1970s, PB has been used to pipe approximately six million homes in the U.S. While it is unclear how many homes in Arizona have PB, an estimated 80,000 Arizonans have had problems with PB. Homeowners often cannot determine what type of plumbing they have by inspection, as stubs to sinks and toilets generally use poly-to-copper connectors.
Despite the decidedly bad news associated with PB use, manufacturers and other defenders of PB piping insist the product on the market today doesn't deserve its bad reputation. Manufacturers of raw PB, including Shell Oil, Hoeschst Celanese Corp., and Dupont De Nemours, blame the bulk of leaks and ruptures on improper installation.
PB manufacturer spokesperson Carrie Chassin says, "The main problem has been at the joints. Some plumbers just took old brass fittings and used them for plastic -- that's one piece of the puzzle." Chassin says the makers of PB piping have corrected problems with leaks.
PB manufacturers sponsor the Plumbing Claims Group (PCB) to replace plumbing for homeowners with leaking PB pipes. Despite manufacturers' assurances that PB is reliable, PCG uses only C-PVC, an indoor version of polyvinylchloride, a more rigid plastic piping with glued joints, in its repairs. Homeowners sign a binding agreement that releases the companies from further claims and requires repairs be done by plumbers chosen by PCG.
A contractor familiar with PB problems says ninety percent of all leaks are at joints in the piping. The contractor figures that about thirty percent of the problems at leaking joints are due to installation errors. Leaks occurring inside a line are almost always in hot water lines, sometimes in areas with no stress.
PB manufacturers have addressed joint problems with a new type of manifold design, which eliminates the use of T-joints and other traditional fittings used with copper and C-PVC pipes. Also known as the "manablock" system, the new design runs flexible 3/8 inch PB pipes from one common source to each fixture. Pipes are joined with a copper tube secured by two crimped copper bands to seal the connection.
Some contractors are not convinced that the copper bands are the solution to the problem. There have been complaints of leaking shutoff valves located at individual fixtures in the manifold system. Carl Triphahn says that the biggest failures in the new manifold design is that the PB tubing itself has been splitting.
Tom Sagau, Tucson City Council member and a plumbing contractor, disagrees. He claims the problems in the improved manifold system are the result of faulty fittings from improper installation. The new copper fittings are an improvement over the old PB joints, said Sagau, but "crimpers need constant calibration to make sure [copper bands] are not too tight." If bands are crimped too snugly, excessive pressure on PB results and leaks are more likely to occur.
As debate continues about whether and to what extent faulty installation contributes to PB failure, another PB issue is getting attention -- whether chlorine added to water supplies deteriorates PB causing weakness or holes in the pipes.
PB manufacturers contracted H.D.R. Engineering Inc., a Bellevue, Washington company, to study the effects of chlorine on PB joints. "There's been some evidence," says Steve Reiber of H.D.R., "that the acetal polymers that have been used to form some of the joint materials used with the plastic pipe, have a lack of resistance to some of the chlorine species common in distribution water systems."
Reiber found that "some forms of oxidants [e.g., chlorine] are more adverse than others and cause exfoliation that weakens the structure. Because [the joints] are under tension, it causes a leak." In other words, the pre-manifold PB joints, which were made from different plastics than the pipe itself, did deteriorate in the laboratory in the presence of chlorine.
Reiber says he has not looked at the susceptibility of the pipe to deterioration in the presence of chlorine. "To my knowledge, nobody has checked the pipe itself," he said.
Meanwhile, PB piping remains popular among many home builders because it offers savings of $200 to $600 per home compared to C-PVC and copper piping. PB piping is almost the exclusive material used in plumbing inexpensive tract houses and mobile homes. The piping itself is about half the cost of copper, but somewhat more expensive than C-PVC. Major cost savings come from lower installation costs -- PB can be installed quickly by semi-skilled labor.
Some plumbers were attracted to PB because customers cannot do their own repairs. The crimping tool required to seal joints is difficult to find in stores or rental shops.
Several Arizona municipalities have become sufficiently wary of PB to ban its use in new construction. Glendale and Goodyear left PB out of their new 1994 plumbing codes, and Chandler has banned the piping.
"We have not used PB in our city system," said Tom Mundinger, a Tucson Water design supervisor, "because there were some settlements in California early on, and there have been other types of pipes we've been happy with." Polybutylene however was approved for private use in Tucson, and the City Council added it to the uniform plumbing code in 1991.
Caution seems to be the final word with regard to PB use. "When the stuff first came out in the 1970s, we had our doubts about it," said Wayne Bryant, a marketing representative for the Plumbers & Steamfitters Local 741 in Tucson. "It was a buyer beware type deal," Bryant says and he believes buyers still need to beware. The following organizations may be contacted for more information about the PB piping issue:

I have to plead guilty to having installed a lot of pb pipe in the 70's, and though there have been documented problems with it, to date I have had not one single complaint or documented failure of the product or the fittings. However We never used the acetyl plastic fittings nor the aluminum rings. Always brass or copper. The other reason I assume for the lack of problems is most of our customers are on private well systems so chlorene is not a problem.

As for repairing the pipe though. A sharkbite may work but you can still get copper or brass couplings and copper rings, so if I had to repair it I think that's the way I'd go.

[Residential Plumbing]

With all the poly repipes, and all the countless repairs I've done over the years. I can't even believe that anyone would even be considering the use of this pipe. I just have to say I'm amazed........

[ToUtahNow]

With all the poly repipes, and all the countless repairs I've done over the years. I can't even believe that anyone would even be considering the use of this pipe. I just have to say I'm amazed........

The thread is not about a new installation he was looking for a way to repair one which was broken during demolition. It sounds like there was 100% agreement to replace the entire main was the best bet. Of course when you aren't getting paid for it a repair looks pretty good.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

Yea, but we've all got a.d.d. and get side tracked.