Face frames and pocket screws

[FSK]

Hi,

I have made a couple of face frames to go on cabinets and screwed the joints together using pocket screws from the back. I have a problem with keeping the frame members flush & aligned when I drive the screw in. The one edge wants to offset from the other. The glue seems to act as a lubricant and the edges just slide.

I clamp the frame down (both members) to the bench, but it still moves on me. It there something I need to be doing? Am I tighten it too tight? Maybe the screw I'm using is mismatched with the hole size?

Sharing any ideas or experience would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Frank

[TOD]

I had that problem at first using the kregg pocket hole jig. It has a lot to do with the drill depth. Make sure the tip of the drill exits the end of the piece you are putting the pockets in. Also use the pocket jig clamp to clamp the pieces flush when driving the screws.

[BHD]

Are you using a kreg jig?

and I use the glorified vice grips with the pad on them to hold the frame and hardly ever have a problem. and have built many many things with the pocket screws. using the kreg jig, http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=8 I have made a few extra clamps with off brand vice grips, and welding on some pads, and they work as well as the kreg units, and saved some money doing that, I have enough clamps I can clamp assemble an entire cabinet face frame usually unless it unusually large and complicated.


I had another one off brand piece of junk, first (jig) and it was a joke and all most avoided the system with the mess that thing made.

my kreg jig is the older all metal unit.

[Woodywoodchuck]

I just clamp mine down to bench.Sometimes they move away a bit when its real hardwood (jatoba,oak) but the screw hits the piece where its supposed to and sucks it back in.

[Wood_Junkie]

First pre-drill and pre-drive a couple of the screws (then back them out) before applying glue, because as you found, the glue is a lubricant.When you reattached the face frames post glue up the pre-drilling will help align and hold.

You do need to clamp the heck out of the frame to keep it from moving shifting slightly when your screw contacts the second workpiece.

[VASandy]

Great tip, Wood junkie, thanks!

Good question, too!!

[Cephus]

Wood Junkie's solution certainly works, but it's just as easy to get some of those inexpensive spring clamps and clamp the piece across the joint to hold it in alignment while you drive your screws.

[The Wood Meister]

I tried a jig similar to the Kreg some years ago. I had NO luck making it work correctly. I kept breaking off the pilot bit. I then bought a high dollar bit with a replaceable/adjustable pilot bit and it broke too. I ended up buying the benchtop Porter Cable pocket hole machine. Granted it's not 40 bucks but if you do a lot of pocket holes, it's a great tool and usually under 600 bucks.

I made a clamp for my frames using an "over center" type clamp with a few mods. I mounted it to a piece of wood and covered the base and clamping piece with 80 grit sand paper (the blue stuff on the pictures) so it would not slip. Now I can fly around a face frame in no time getting perfectly flush joints. Sand paper gets replaced occasionally too. I get some glue buildup on the paper but I clamp in a wet rag once in a while to soften the glue and then just peel it off. (i'm into cheap and functional!LOL)

Mark

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/faceframeclamp3.jpg

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/faceframeclamp2.jpg

For bigger pieces that my clamp won't span, I just come in from the INSIDE corner of the joint.

http://www.wonders-in-wood.us/images/ridgid/faceframeclamp1.jpg

[FSK]

Thanks for the replies. It looks like the way to go is to clamp the snot out of it and pre-drill both pieces.

I think I have a toggle clamp to make a jig like The Wood Meister made.

Thanks

[kenwho]

W.M thanks for that money saving idea :), i have a lot of those clamps. I changed to a flat sided drill bit instead of the beveled got mine from rockler but tyler,grizzly,amazon should have them . also the screws . the bugal /flat head screw made it shift.

[rnt80]

Nice little jig W.M. I'll have to put one together this weekend. Sanding those offset joints has always been a pain, it sounds like your solution should take care of things. Thanks!

[Andy_M]

I don't have trouble as long as it's well clamped. I like the over center jig a lot - looks fast!

Keep in mind that wood glue (like Titebond) is pretty much useless on end grain. Since your face frame puts end grain against long grain, regular woodworker's glue may make you feel better but the joint strength is coming from the screws. Your joints won't miss the glue much if you skip it! Having said that, I use a bit of epoxy. I don't think it's great on end grain either, but maybe a little better. Epoxy likes a bit thicker glue line - about 0.005 inch. So I leave the screws not too tight, then drive 'em in harder the next day after the epoxy has hardened. Yup, it's a hassle and I'm far from sure that it's worth it.

[Newman]

If you want a really strong joint, you can use a biscuit along with the pocket screws. :)

[Andy_M]

A bit more on pocket screws.... I've used them a LOT in the past year or so. I also note on other forums (woodweb) that pocket screws are very popular with professional cabinet makers.

Mine will probably be the monority opinion, but I just don't like pocket screws all that well. The best feature of pocket screws is, they are fast. Contrary to a lot of what I've read, I don't find them to be very strong. I DO find that they are "strong enough" for a face frame once assembled to the cabinet. But if you build a large frame (say an 8 foot tall pantry cab or wall oven cab) and move it around the shop you have to be very careful or it will twist and pull the screws. Yeah, you can have trouble with M&T in this sort of case also and yes, I know that if one is careful there won't be problems, but still I feel that the pocket screws are just not nearly as strong as traditional joinery. The other problem I've had is that, especially in red oak, it is very very easy to overtighten and strip the screws (I use Kreg 1-1/4 long fine thread, which is what Kreg recommends). When this happens, I have to take the time to repair the hole and that eats into some of the time the pocket screws saved. After a couple of stripped screws I learned to set the clutch on my cordless driver drill to "3". That seems to not strip the screws but.... "3" is just not very tight. Having said all that, I have no problem using them for kitchen or bathroom cabinets but my own personal sense of "quality" has led me back to traditional methods for furniture. I fully acknowledge that pocket screws might be great and my feelings could be the result of user competence issues...

As a practical matter, as has been discussed earlier in this thread, keeping the joint flush is highly related to the clamping. The other thing that is very important is that your face frame stock needs to be pretty much all identical thickness. No problem if you plane your face frame stock before you start.

I just started looking into the "Dowelmax" jig. Lots of people don't like dowels but I think the result can be good. Check out the Dowelmax site. Their strength test results might surprise you. Only problem is that the jig is SOOOO expensive! Has anyone used this tool?

The other thing I've played with is cutting one dovetail for each stile-to-rail joint. I cut them so that you see the tail when looking at the face of the frame. Adds a little personal touch to the work.... not something you see everyday. I use a router table setup and it turns out that it's pretty fast, faster than you might think. In addition to a different look, the glued-up frames seem pretty strong and you can get them perfectly flush very easily. This works really well for cabinets with inset doors & drawers, because you can see the dovetail. With overlay doors, you have to be careful about the position of things because hiding some of the face frame dovetail behind the door looks funky.

[Stevan Sweeney]

Run the screw through the pocket, clean any tear out from the drill, and total immobility of the pieces to be joined should yield success. I have also fooled with substituting Miller dowels for screws. Drill the pocket with the Kreg bit, remove the jig and follow up with the miller bit. It works, and it will never come apart. Not saying the Kreg screws will, but it is an interesting if not ugly solution, too. I just happen to think Miller dowels are totally cool.
Steve.

[The Wood Meister]

In reference to the strength of pocket screws, I seem to have a different take. I use 2 screws in almost all joints. If I go past 3" width, I use 3 screws. I also use glue.

Using the "over center" clamp, the joint does NOT move or shift during screwing. Never has, it's nailed down good!

On the strength, I and my son were loading a huge top section of an entertainment center into his truck, he lost his grip right just before the tailgate and it came down on the corner. It fell almost 3'!!
This thing was about 8' long, 2' deep and 6 1/2' tall. It was done in white lacquer. Not one joint cracked, not one! Only damage was the trim on the corner where it landed. I was able to repair and re-shoot it and deliver the next day.

The nice thing about the over center clamp is that you can lay out the frame on the table and just move it around from joint to joint. I put scraps under each corner to keep it all level.

I dunno, maybe i'm just lucky, but sometimes we (I) can overthink things sometimes making them harder than they need to be.

Mark

[BHD]

On the strength issue,

I have made "L" shaped pieces and used two screws and glue, and the wood failed before the joint did, the same with dowels, some times the dowels will break or shear,

I have yet come to a situation on a normal or any cabinet that I have ever made, that the pocket hole/screw joint has failed, and it is field makable if necessary. (I will agree single screws are minimal).



No it is not mortise and tendon joinery, but it is a reasonably strong reliable quick and easy with a minimal tools, joint.

[Andy_M]

No it is not mortise and tendon joinery, but it is a reasonably strong reliable quick and easy with a minimal tools, joint.

Yup, I agree with this. Pocket holes are strong enough and while not my favorite, I use them fairly often depending on what I'm making.
I do find pocket holes to be a good choice on hidden cabinet side walls and bottoms to attach the face frames. It's faster than biscuits and I find the accuracy to be easier to achieve. For this I like to use the Kreg coarse thread screws, which I find work much better in ply.

But lately, I've been using masonite splines for this. Turns out I have a Systimatic blade that cuts a kerf that is an absolutely perfect fit for 1/8 masonite. Fastest method I've found so far, cheaper than Kreg screws (or biscuits), easier than dados... and no metal in the woodwork. Where I don't want to see the end of the groove (i.e, furniture rather than kitchen and bath cabinets) I use a router to cut a stopped groove. Not quite as fast as the tablesaw, but still pretty fast and accurate. Sometimes I have to hit the textured side of the spline with the finish sander (10 seconds does it) because the groove made by my 1/8" bit is a tad tight.

[Handidad]

To simplify the pre-drilling of the wood that gets fastened, I drillled out a 3/8" dia rod to accept a 1/8" dia long drill bit. With some set screws I can adjust the depth of drilling.
With this special drill I've been able to use the pocket hole technique with thicker lumber.

I have seen a specially modified welding vise grip with one of the pads removed so that this jaw fits into the pocket hole. This allows clamping the joints together so that they cannot be pushed apart.

[Joe Lyddon]

First pre-drill and pre-drive a couple of the screws (then back them out) before applying glue, because as you found, the glue is a lubricant.When you reattached the face frames post glue up the pre-drilling will help align and hold.

You do need to clamp the heck out of the frame to keep it from moving shifting slightly when your screw contacts the second workpiece.

Great sneaky TIP!!

Thank you very much!