Too Much Flux

[ToUtahNow]

I am looking at a project which appears to have excessive amounts of flux residual left in the tube. The owners are complaining about a green slim at their tubs and in water being boiled at the kitchen. The project is 4-years old and they are still having the problem. Has anyone ever found a good way to remove excessive flux which is not flushed out during original construction and disinfection?

Mark

[plumberscrack]

4 years and still having problems?

Go to a pool supply and buy a small bag of Chlorine crystals. Dillute it into a bucket. Pump it through the domestic system and let stand overnight. Flush, rinse and repeat.

Worked for me a few times.

[ToUtahNow]

Thanks PC - I may have left out this is a residential high-rise.

Mark

[plumberscrack]

Details...details... why does everyone forget the details.;)

I can't imagine it being the flux at this stage unless it sat for really a long time before being flushed.

All units are affected or just a few?

I would have the water throughly tested.

The chlorine thing works but not sure how that would work in a high rise.

Rick would have the right answer :D

[Herk]

Seems that it would take an unbelievable amount of flux to cause such an amount of green in the fixtures and water. Is there anything weird about the water, such as lots of dissolved oxygen? Over-chlorination of the water will also cause corrosion.

[MrsSeatDown]

Rick would have the right answer :D

It will have to wait until he gets home. We are not spending the calls from Costa Rica talking about the forum. . .sorry:p

[biscuit]

I will be very intrested to see what the resolution to this is. I too find it hard to believe that the residual flux is causing a problem, especially due to the age of the building:confused:

Please keep us posted on this one.

Regards,

[gear junkie]

Don't you have to super chlorinate your line after pressure testing? We have to for Navy projects. Is it the same as civilian side?

[plumbdog10]

Thanks PC - I may have left out this is a residential high-rise.

Mark

If the system was not blown out (which I do on all my jobs), and it's been four years since anyone turned on a faucet (which is possible, if it was not leased out), I can see the problem. I would suggest turning on all valves, faucets, etc. for about two hours. If it comes back there my be other problems.

[ToUtahNow]

Very good dog.

Okay I was at the project until about 6 PM tonight so I have a little more history. This is a project which came in the afternoon before I headed for New York and today was the follow up visit. The first time I was out there they gave me the DWP report which showed the city water at 22 parts per million of copper but 1800 parts per million at a tub. That seemed to be the worst unit with the owner complaining about a green tint to her hair and her hair breaking.

While I was in New York I sent a Chemist out to test water in various parts of the building. He confirmed my belief that the problem is localized to only certain units. The green slim tested to be flux which had leached some copper from the tubing. These units were for the most part sold pre-finish meaning the owner selected the fixtures and finishes and finished the units themselves. The first build out was not completed until early 2006. The unit which seems to have the biggest problem is a part-time owner who has only spent 8-weeks in the unit.

When I met with the board tonight I recommended we isolate the worst unit and have the Chemist collect a sample. Then I want to remove the piping to the deck mounted tub set and run two hoses in to the tub. The hoses will flush for 4 hours and then I will have the Chemist take another sample. If the copper level drops I think I can convince them to flush the rest of the system.

Mark

[DUNBAR]

These units were for the most part sold pre-finish meaning the owner selected the fixtures and finishes and finished the units themselves.


There's the answer right there I bet; untrained hands or incorrect workmanship or materials (improper flux)


The liability could easily go back to the association that runs that development for even allowing this possibility to exist.

Not unless there's more details to your situation whereby the same person plumbed all those units.

They better hope they can get this matter resolved before these units keep changing ownership. :confused:

[ToUtahNow]

There's the answer right there I bet; untrained hands or incorrect workmanship or materials (improper flux)


The liability could easily go back to the association that runs that development for even allowing this possibility to exist.

Not unless there's more details to your situation whereby the same person plumbed all those units.

They better hope they can get this matter resolved before these units keep changing ownership. :confused:

The plumbing rough and top out was already installed but the fixtures and cabinets were not. Interesting enough the plumbers who are working for the homeowners when locations are changed have all used ProPress.

I have been hire to solve the problem and I'm fairly certain I will be sucessful. Another factor I may have left out is these units sell for millions of dollars as a shell so when I'm done I need to make sure I have 110% results.

Mark

[biscuit]

I got a problem buying into the "tennant improvement" phase of this. The " top out" would have already located valves/stops etc.. NO??

If thats the case, the only thing the buyer would have is fixture choice and supplies. Little or no soldering there??

However I do buy into the statement that a unit could have been unoccupied for a time, "Stagnant".

I do look forward to your findings.

Regards,

[ToUtahNow]

I have been into some of the shells. Each unit has three SOVs in the ceiling if the laundry room. They are hot, cold and return. The walls are up and painted but there is no floor coverings and only stub outs at fixture locations except that there are SOV and 3/4" MIP adapters at tub locations and single handle valves installed at stall showers. The buyer is responsible to hire their own designer and contractor to complete the units. One of the units which is the worst has two 3/4" water heater flexes connecting the tub valve and the rest is from original construction.

Because the slim is mostly at the hot I believe the hot is helping it dislodge. One of the first things I'm going to do is try and flush both hot and cold lines with the hot. I figure I can connect the laundry bibbs and the close the cold SOV and the return SOV which will give me hot to the entire unit.

Mark

[DUNBAR]

The plumbing rough and top out was already installed but the fixtures and cabinets were not. Interesting enough the plumbers who are working for the homeowners when locations are changed have all used ProPress.

I have been hire to solve the problem and I'm fairly certain I will be sucessful. Another factor I may have left out is these units sell for millions of dollars as a shell so when I'm done I need to make sure I have 110% results.

Mark


Ahh...so just the trim kits only.


I did work on something similar to what you are describing. In Cincinnati we had to do remodels in these high-rise condos that were million dollar flats, the concrete floors between the stories of height were concrete core type.

That means all drains and water lines had to be ran through the hollow interior of the floor with limited pass-through penetrations.

Unbelievably difficult work, especially with the limited spacing and fighting with the main supply feeding all the upper units.

Spend 3 hours moving the water/drain on a lav and find out the next morning the customer wants the damn thing moved again for the 3rd time.

That application of plumbing dealing with those floors was nothing less than artwork in its purest form in regards to our profession.

I'm just glad it's all a memory. I've swayed away from working in them solely for the reason that if I had a toilet or faucet supply rupture at no fault to my own, it can literally do damage in the hundreds of thousands, not just thousands. Big difference and you affect more than one property owner in the worst case scenario.

[biscuit]

I have been into some of the shells. Each unit has three SOVs in the ceiling if the laundry room. They are hot, cold and return. The walls are up and painted but there is no floor coverings and only stub outs at fixture locations except that there are SOV and 3/4" MIP adapters at tub locations and single handle valves installed at stall showers. The buyer is responsible to hire their own designer and contractor to complete the units. One of the units which is the worst has two 3/4" water heater flexes connecting the tub valve and the rest is from original construction.

Because the slim is mostly at the hot I believe the hot is helping it dislodge. One of the first things I'm going to do is try and flush both hot and cold lines with the hot. I figure I can connect the laundry bibbs and the close the cold SOV and the return SOV which will give me hot to the entire unit.

Mark

Sounds like a viable plan to me for what thats worth??

Its got to help, a lot!

Regards,

[plumbdog10]

There's the answer right there I bet; untrained hands or incorrect workmanship or materials (improper flux)


The liability could easily go back to the association that runs that development for even allowing this possibility to exist.

Not unless there's more details to your situation whereby the same person plumbed all those units.

They better hope they can get this matter resolved before these units keep changing ownership. :confused:

In my opinion no one is at fault (o.k. the original contractor could have flushed the system better). Just flush the system now and call it a day.

Dunbar is getting hot and heavy to find fault. How many multistory buildings have you piped fron the ground-up?

[toolaholic]

Dog ,in repair work ,what do You recommend for a good flush??

[DUNBAR]

In my opinion no one is at fault (o.k. the original contractor could have flushed the system better). Just flush the system now and call it a day.

Dunbar is getting hot and heavy to find fault. How many multistory buildings have you piped fron the ground-up?


ZERO

And it's going to stay that way. I did however work down at Bel-Terra (gambling hotel and casino) in Indiana.

Possibly 13 stories but I found a way to get knocked off the job when we reached the 8th floor and it was 18 effing degrees. I was the last of the local union guys and the rest were travellers. I helped on the DWV system but not enough to take much credit. I did the easy stuff, turnouts for back to back lavs, vents. Had one guy do all the core drilling *saweet!* and the guy was amazingly accurate. Chain elevators always brought our box of goodies, cast-iron fittings and mission banded couplings.

Got sick and tired of being cold and sick and tired of all the damn divorce stories those travellers kept telling. :rolleyes: I was the copper man as they had my ridgid all-in-one cutter/reamer/sander machine on a small stand, B-tank carrier with a rigged indirect heater made from a second torch. All cookie cutter design, every floor a copy cat from the one below basically.

Got fired for christmas at miller brewery at the office building that was being plumbed. Telling my boss that you can't do that mop sink with 90's and telling him that a combination tee for that urinal is sticking out of the finished wall too far got me a free ride to the bench.

That mop sink got worked out to center with 3" 45's and street 22's.....worked out dead center. The urinal situation had to have the groundwork dug up and set back 2". *Heard this from my fellow compadres*




But in regards to those condos? I truly believe the remodel phase of moving bathrooms, installing island sinks along with constant alterations and modifications were much more difficult than new construction. No "We'll just slot across the floor" its "You have to go this route, through this chase, make it work".

New construction in commercial I thought was quite easy, just follow blueprints, don't think above the ceilings are your private domain and catch all the mistakes in the second rough before they happen....makes the final a great deal easier.

[DuckButter]

New commercial, the ceilings are a battlefield.
HVAC, Sprinklers, Electrical...all contending their work takes precedence and of course, the engineers f-ed up the prints and forgot dimensional tolerances.

[ToUtahNow]

For the record this plumbing company is one I really respect and has been a client of mine in the past. I think the problem is when you send young kids who are probably just helpers to try and figure out the problem.

When the owner of a multi-million dollar condo complains her hair is falling out and turning green she wants a better answer than "that's normal".

Mark

[drtyhands]

New commercial, the ceilings are a battlefield.
HVAC, Sprinklers, Electrical...all contending their work takes precedence and of course, the engineers f-ed up the prints and forgot dimensional tolerances.
Have I got some pictures for you;)
With you all the way Duck,now for my current project add all the old improvements in the building over the existing galvanized and you have a real peach.

[DUNBAR]

You know what I'm talking about DB.

I watched some incredible work done by sprinkler system guys that defied logic in how quick, how efficient they was throwing up heavy-*** piping. Guy worked for Dalmation FPS pushing 100 grand travelling 6 states. Uh...no thank you.

Never once did they stray from the blueprints even though he had first dibs at the square footage. Electrical runs, HVAC ductwork, plumbing vents along with gas lines.

[drtyhands]

You know what I'm talking about DB.

I watched some incredible work done by sprinkler system guys that defied logic in how quick, how efficient they was throwing up heavy-*** piping. Guy worked for Dalmation FPS pushing 100 grand travelling 6 states. Uh...no thank you.

Never once did they stray from the blueprints even though he had first dibs at the square footage. Electrical runs, HVAC ductwork, plumbing vents along with gas lines.
In the wide open spaces of new commercial FPS may get their elevation per plan(as long as the architect is doing his job) but when the job starts getting a little challenging I can tell you he's not going to get his money making straight shots.Matter of fact we all bow to HVAC.

[MrsSeatDown]

When the owner of a multi-million dollar condo complains her hair is falling out and turning green she wants a better answer than "that's normal".

Mark

I would too. . . even in a cheaper residence!

[ToUtahNow]

By the way have Rick call me when he gets back so I can have him do some propress at the site.

Mark

[toolaholic]

Hair falling out ?? Boy is this going to be a, LARGE, lawsuit !!!!

[plumbdog10]

In the wide open spaces of new commercial FPS may get their elevation per plan(as long as the architect is doing his job) but when the job starts getting a little challenging I can tell you he's not going to get his money making straight shots.Matter of fact we all bow to HVAC.

I don't bow to HVAC, but I coordinate, which is my job. The current job I am running has very tight ceilings, spread over seven floors of buildings. The HVAC foreman has run behind since day one. He usually hits the site two hours late, doesn't show up for meetings, etc. He gets screwed because I have registered complaints with the GC in writting. If there is a conflict, he loses at this point.

[DuckButter]

In the wide open spaces of new commercial FPS may get their elevation per plan(as long as the architect is doing his job) but when the job starts getting a little challenging I can tell you he's not going to get his money making straight shots.Matter of fact we all bow to HVAC.

In a situation where a 3" horizontal drainage branch ran across the center of a 2'x2' section of duct, the engineers decided it best to alter the duct over offsetting the 3" CI over it (there was no room below to the ceiling panels).
They had to modify a section down to 1" and expand it's width to accomodate the CF.
During the initial discovery of the dilemma I was very interested in listening to the HVAC guys theory, but the GC wasn't.

[mrs. westcoast]

In a situation where a 3" horizontal drainage branch ran across the center of a 2'x2' section of duct, the engineers decided it best to alter the duct over offsetting the 3" CI over it (there was no room below to the ceiling panels).
They had to modify a section down to 1" and expand it's width to accomodate the CF.
During the initial discovery of the dilemma I was very interested in listening to the HVAC guys theory, but the GC wasn't.


This is why Ducks got his own smily :duck:

for the record i have no clue if you are right or wrong:nyaa-nyaa4:

[drtyhands]

I don't bow to HVAC, but I coordinate, which is my job. The current job I am running has very tight ceilings, spread over seven floors of buildings. The HVAC foreman has run behind since day one. He usually hits the site two hours late, doesn't show up for meetings, etc. He gets screwed because I have registered complaints with the GC in writting. If there is a conflict, he loses at this point.
Dog,when I say bow I am refering to the job walk in the begining of the prodject,usaually gets the prime cut.He either installs at his desired elevation ahead of us or gives us his elevations if he can't get his job done on schedule.I then let him know to keep his duct as high as possible.Don't missinterpret what I am saying,I don't fold to a fool or any other slacker,I'm too busy doing the superintendant or architects job(only around 10% hit on the mark these days).

I don't have 1 extra minute for a non-professional foreman anymore:mad:

It's actually working out pretty well being an a$$****

[plumbdog10]

Dog,when I say bow I am refering to the job walk in the begining of the prodject,usaually gets the prime cut.He either installs at his desired elevation ahead of us or gives us his elevations if he can't get his job done on schedule.I then let him know to keep his duct as high as possible.Don't missinterpret what I am saying,I don't fold to a fool or any other slacker,I'm too busy doing the superintendant or architects job(only around 10% hit on the mark these days).

I don't have 1 extra minute for a non-professional foreman anymore:mad:

It's actually working out pretty well being an a$$****

I agree 100% with you buddy, It's best to coordinate, but you sometimes need to be an ******* when necessary. Just don't let anyone push you around. But as your post notes, you understand that.

[drtyhands]

Dog,when I say bow I am refering to the job walk in the begining of the prodject,usaually gets the prime cut.He either installs at his desired elevation ahead of us or gives us his elevations if he can't get his job done on schedule.I then let him know to keep his duct as high as possible.Don't missinterpret what I am saying,I don't fold to a fool or any other slacker,I'm too busy doing the superintendant or architects job(only around 10% hit on the mark these days).

I don't have 1 extra minute for a non-professional foreman anymore:mad:

It's actually working out pretty well being an a$$****

Sorry guys I was only refering to high rise,seems that I had another long term memory lapse again.The high as possible variable requested by me on a grocery store or other 20' plus lid would get nothing but laughs.

[PLUMBER RICK]

you go on vacation for a week and come back to people with green broken hair:crying:

mark, i see the same scenario as what happened when the sprinkler guys started to use copper for their systems. all their dead ended drops were never flushed out of the heads and eventually ended up rotting out the orifice plate of the heads. thus causing failure. of course this was pre water soluble flux days. i was told that is the reason why we had a code change to water soluble flux:confused:

now using this example as a comparison, i can assume with the fact that all the units only have stubs and no angle stops to flush out the dead ended air chambers. the flux has had a couple of years to eat away at the copper.

i would hope that by flushing all of the stubs you can rinse away all the water soluble flux.

this also reminds me of your water heater hydrogen gas build up on long sitting non used water heaters.

by the way, your suggestion of back flushing with hot water is a good idea that will in theory work, but i hope water soluble flux will flush out in cold water too.

i've always found that the water flux turns soapy when flushed.

of course the tub is the location where all the results are found due to the size and volume of the water and flow.

amazing you and adam are in my neck of the woods working:D

lets do lunch. adam's never been to the apple pan;)

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Update:

After following my flushing protocol (for the most part) in the worst 3-units the water appears to finally be flux free after 4-weeks of flushing. Next week the chemist will return to take water samples.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

Update:

After following my flushing protocol (for the most part) in the worst 3-units the water appears to finally be flux free after 4-weeks of flushing. Next week the chemist will return to take water samples.

Mark

so now you tell me.
i've been waiting for the phone to ring for a month now:rolleyes:

glad they got it clean.
i was expecting a bunch of rich people with green hair:shocked2:. to start calling me.

rick.

we can still do apple pan next time you're here;)

[ToUtahNow]

so now you tell me.
i've been waiting for the phone to ring for a month now:rolleyes:

glad they got it clean.
i was expecting a bunch of rich people with green hair:shocked2:. to start calling me.

rick.

we can still do apple pan next time you're here;)

Don't worry you will still be doing some work for me there. I need to remove some pipe samples and I want you to use your ProPress. I also need you to do the fireplaces still but it is really more a matter of priority projects for the building.

Mark

[drtyhands]

Don't worry you will still be doing some work for me there. I need to remove some pipe samples and I want you to use your ProPress. I also need you to do the fireplaces still but it is really more a matter of priority projects for the building.

Mark
Looks like Mrs.Seatdown is going to be working weekends with her favorite threading machine.

[NHMaster3015]

Is it just me, or does it seem like most of the construction foremen have become bean counters instead of construction professionals. The last condo job we did, the foreman showed up every day in a suit and tie, geeze what a moron he is.

[DuckButter]

SUIT & TIE?!?!?

I've seen 'em in Polo shirt's & dockers, but thats rediculous.

[Bogart]

Citric acid is the best way to flush excess flush. Get ahold of the Copper Development Association at CDA.org. They can help you out.