Water heater choices

[CPlumb]

Don't know if I am re hashing an old thread (new here ).

Wanted to get an idea of which type of heater folks around the world like to use ?

I have been an A.O .Smith guy for almost 30 years . Recently they have disappointed me somewhat .

I have started using and have become VERY happy with the Bradford White .

Any other GOOD options ???

CPlumb

[Australian Plumber Josh]

Due to heavy marketing tankless is becoming popular here.

As I understand it all storage type heaters have cylinders by the same manufacturer.

most peoples choices are based on price when comparing heaters.and i'll install whatever type/brand they want.

[biscuit]

It depends on the application for us.

If its small, we will use a Rheem or a Bradford White. Larger stuff, we typically go with PVI.

Regards,

[drtyhands]

What's happening with your A.O. smiths.I feel confident with B/white.Some plumber here told me A.O. brought their dependability standards back up to acceptable levels.

[drtyhands]

It depends on the application for us.

If its small, we will use a Rheem or a Bradford White. Larger stuff, we typically go with PVI.

Regards,
what's a PVI

[biscuit]

PVI is a manufacturer of large commercial application water heaters, they do have some small ones, that are pretty nice as well.

They are located in teh Fort Worth, TX area.

www.pvi.com (http://www.pvi.com)

[Wild Weasel]

Is there any downside to the tankless ones? I've heard the marketing. Seems like a good idea to me, so long as they keep up with the household demand. Do they?

[drtyhands]

Thanks Biscuit,Have a good day.

Weasel,Tankless are working fine as of now.The problems start arising when plumbers install the system incorrectly,or to their capacity.

[oldslowchevy]

Is there any downside to the tankless ones? I've heard the marketing. Seems like a good idea to me, so long as they keep up with the household demand. Do they?




for my house in a word ... yes..... but it seems to cost alot more to run this one compared to my old 50gallon upright unit. both are propane

[DUNBAR]

The problems start arising when plumbers install the system incorrectly,or to their capacity.


Please, decipher that statement in simple terms. Explain how compartment limescale and electronic failures result at the hands of a plumber installing the 2 water lines, gas line and specific flue pipe.

And we should be on the premace that all of these units should be installed by licensed plumbers and inspected/approved for their application conforming to local authority codes/requirements.

In Arizona with ground temps nearing 70+ degrees that makes a tankless work like a gem; less than a 40 degree rise.

Head east that simple formulation that a tankless has to overcome gets grossly stepped up, nearing 70 degrees to overcome.

Unfortunately when a tankless fails it's usually hindering on the electronic side or a flow control issue. Customers (not many, but getting there) end up without hot water for days, not hours when their unit malfunctions.

I've lost water heater installs because I couldn't be there the same day, let alone calling a 1-800 number and hoping the delivery man brings the parts in a timely fashion. Don't discredit these facts when they are so apparent in the beginning stages of this product.

In areas whether geographical or isolated areas, water quality destroys the ability of these units to perform as efficient as their lab results first produced. That in turn makes maintenance of a tank heater ignored, makes the necessity of a tankless, required.

Come at me with facts in your retort, not opinions. I'm a loaded gun on this topic and well versed on the stats of comparison. 2230


My voice stands for the innocent people who follow the logic that tankless is better....until the person who installs it is long gone, only knew how to hang it on the wall and get it running, nothing else. This now leads the customer down a dark road of unknown....trying to do anything to get their unit back on. Sometimes it is simple, sometimes its difficult.

My personal experience of PowerVents malfunctioning and getting calls frequently because the electronics failing is factual to the same similarities found with tankless technology. You "have" to have the product repair parts, you have to have the trained hands in your area to trust its reliability, with of course water quality being optimum. <<< Does this even exist?

[wookie]

OSC,

Just curious, are people taking longer showers now that they realize there is endless hot water?

wookie

[wookie]

Dunbar,

You've made some great points. I've talked more people out of tankless than into them. Lack of timely service and parts availability has always been a great concern and a problem I ALWAYS bring to the manufacturers attention when ever I get the chance. I've taken two service courses with two different manufacturers but I really don't have the confidence to try a involved field repair. Trouble shooting has never been a strong suit of mine, you have to do repairs all the time to get comfortable and competant IMHO. Noritz has been trying to overcome this problem but have a long ways to go, they at least seem serious about it.

wookie

[biscuit]

We dont do a lot of tankless, but when we do, its a Noritz. Had some bad experiences with the other big manufacturer from what I have been told.

[Gene Bickford]

OSC,

Just curious, are people taking longer showers now that they realize there is endless hot water?

wookie
I know my daughter does. She takes a shower in the A.M., afternoon and night if I don't notice. Shes been known to spend 3hrs:rant-off: in the shower if I'm not paying attention.

[plumberscrack]

CPlumb,

As you already know A.O. Smith has been a dominate player in our market for years.

I was an A.O. Smith factory service rep. for Northern Va for nearly 10 years. This was during the first generation power vent models and the dip tube era :eek:. Some days all 10 of my service calls would be warranty service but I never gave up on them until they merged with State. We only install a State or A.O. Smith now if it's specified otherwise it's all Bradford White.

I would challenge Dunbar on his statement concerning tankless but he seems cocked and ready to shoot me down. I would only add that Adam made a statement based on what he sees in the field and I would agree. I have only installed 1 brand of tankless (Rinnai) and the many that I have installed have not failed to my knowledge. I have removed many that suffered an early death and repiped a few butchered installations on other brands.

The customer needs to be know that this is not the same water heater they grew up with. Like Sy and Marcie Syms said: "An educated consumer is our best customer"

[biscuit]

I am not knocking Rinnai, I just heard that they had problems several years back from our guys.

From a engineering standpoint, I would believe a home with a lot of hot water usage would come out better with a larger tank type (as far a gas consumption goes) than with a tankless.

At my home, its just my wife and I , I could see a benefit to going tankless but being a engineer, I have a re-circ line on a 75 gallon tank. I know it's overkill in a big way, but I like to turn on a faucet and have instant hot water no matter the location.

Regards,

[DUNBAR]

By no means will I always be right in my thinking for every situation, and I've been wrong many times in my field of expertise.


Using Rinnai is the top of the crop product in regards to tankless. If people were realistic in thinking along these lines BEFORE they called and wasted my time, I might ease up, but I always get the price-shopper thats always trying to hedge down to a water heater changeout, maybe a skosh more. You're in DC so you know the climate issues that we have in the east. It's turbulent at best and those large ones will accomodate the greediest of hot water users.

If you are installing 8-13 gpm tankless units with the ability to overcome that substantial degree rise needed to get to 105 and above, that's good. That however costs a considerable amount of money, especially when I get a constant dribble of customers calling me wanting me to install a bosch tankless that is around $549, not including any venting.

I got to remind anyone that reads my statements, please remember that the consumer is dumb as rocks for the majority of plumbing systems. They can sit on a toilet all their life and use it and never know how it operates. All they know is it takes the bad stuff away.

I'm driving points home on opposition of "tankless is for everyone" attitude that offers a generalized protection of the consumer.

And PC, can you imagine the frustration of those property owners that went with this technology and had to spend twice? Those "other" brands are the problem, I don't care about the names. I get these questions on forums where XXXX tankless units are no longer made or "can't get through to customer support" situations.

This sucks for me as I can't answer the questions to help them as I'm as useless as **** on a fish when they've bought a product that doesn't provide the back end support.

You know from your experience with A.O. Smith/State (which is considered tremendous knowledge in the matters of PowerVent operation) that those you deal with on water heater tank ownership,

most if not all people do NOT maintain a regular maintenance schedule of their heaters. Put it in and forget it.

According to the mfg. specs of most of these tankless units, you have to put them on maintenance rituals or they do not perform. Same as a tank, just not as forgiving since the numbers are so crucial to follow a savings ratio over it's predecessor.

My voice in these matters are solely because I would have to lie to my customers, not divulge the facts, work at a cheaper rate of pay to get these units installed and let time be my out the door excuse.

I have to let customers know what to expect on these units, how they have to maintain them unlike the way they did on tank heaters all those years prior and that the serviceabilty is non-existent in the area. << This will be this way for years until the market brings these in full force.

I can see a new house, new tankless, years later they need a new one and come in and replace an apple for an apple. Water conservation got thrown out the window when everyone wanted a car wash for a shower, now we have the ability to take an endless shower because the hot water is now there to do it.

Am I being unreasonable in being subjective to this when the average consumer is numb to anything but buy it/use it/break it/fix or buy a new one?????

I am a plumber ya know.....I see the cause and effect of plumbing problems every single day. A leak off a fitting on a heater that went for years, not days. A toilet with a leaking tank to bowl bolt with a bowl catching the drip that's been there so long under the back of the toilet that the dog uses it as a secondary source of water.

Leaking spouts at faucets that even though I'm there...they won't fix them because they don't see the harm in them leaking. Common. I just don't feel comfortable recommending anything that's going to have that same customer calling me every time it breaks down (might takes years but they will call me first, it's guaranteed) and I'm sucked into NO supply house in my area supplying repair parts. NONE.

Here's a similarity >>>>> Danze or Pegasus faucet repair parts, even Price Pfister....they are real hard to find parts in the best of plumbing supply houses.

[biscuit]

Dunbar,

You dont have to sell me on your point of view. I agree with most everything you said.

On the other end of the spectrum, one could argue that one could put in three tank type heaters for the cost of one tankless. I change out my tanks every 10 years no matter what(personal quirk of mine).

I am not a big fan of the tankless from a energy use standpoint, not all but most of the people I have talked to in residential applications actually see a increase in the gas bills, some say it is significant.

It would be hard for me to "push" these in the residential marketplace as well.

Regards,

[oldslowchevy]

as i stated earlyer mine propane went from 100# a year (tank) to 100# every 9-10 months.(tankless)

[Herk]

I must have the worst luck with water heaters. Everybody seems to like the ones I've had trouble with.

The last time I used A.O. Smith Heaters, I couldn't put nipples in top unless I chiseled out a larger hole. They seem to have some problems lining things up.

The last time I put in Bradford White heaters, the thermostats caused me to go back a couple of times to mop up water.

And don't get me started on State. OK, I'll start:

They used to be called State Stove, I believe, and when I was working at Boise Cascade, one out of three failed the pressure test of the system.

But then they seemed to have a heyday. They came out with the Sand Hog element and were guaranteeing it five years even under lime. Then the polybutylene tank. Those might help, but if someone dry-fires them, they can cause a very dangerous condition. I've walked in on them blowing steam.

When I bought my "lifetime" State water heater, I thought I would never have to buy another one. It lasted seven years. States were no longer being sold in my area anywhere, and the supply house replaced it with a standard American fifty-gallon heater.

But when they came out with those itty-bitty elements that wouldn't last a year, I wound up going around replacing them with better ones out of pocket. No wonder they won't sell them around here anymore.

I've never had a problem with Rheem, and I continue to use them. My own Rheem has been in for about seven or eight years, in an area where most water heaters need to have the lime cleaned out about every three years, I've never had to clean it yet.

I've had worse luck with the point-of-use heaters - I can't seem to get good elements for them, and the ones they come with don't last long at all in the heavy lime conditions. But I have yet to have a Rheem fail within warranty period.

I'm too leery of tankless to try them. Our local courthouse has an A.O. Smith high-recovery heater with separate tank and the $1,000 coil on the top of the heater needs to be replace once per year because it gets packed with lime. I can't help but wonder if tankless will have similar problems in this area.

Maybe I'll get brave one of these days. But considering what I've read about the "savings," I think I'll try to steer customers away from them.

[biscuit]

Rheem is our small use water heater of choice.


Oh yeah, the State water heater is a A.O. Smith just like the Ruud is a Rheem.

Regards,

[CPlumb]

I'm glad to open such a lively thread ! Personally I have installed SEVERAL Rinnai tankless heaters ! LOVE THEM , However , I have moved away from them because of cost , venting issues , etc... Now I'm back to a more " old school " belief . Tank type are tried and true . AND I really am happy with the
Bradford White !

CPlumb

[drtyhands]

I'm glad to open such a lively thread ! Personally I have installed SEVERAL Rinnai tankless heaters ! LOVE THEM , However , I have moved away from them because of cost , venting issues , etc... Now I'm back to a more " old school " belief . Tank type are tried and true . AND I really am happy with the
Bradford White !

CPlumb

What's the venting issues you are having.The combination vents are allowing plumbers to vent up to 40' horizontally without affecting performance.

[DuckButter]

The trouble with Rinnai in my area is the max output model (180K btu) is 5.3 gpm @ 60 incoming water temp, they're actually much cheaper than most tankless models that size(through Ferguson, Roberts friend prompted me to call them).
Rheem/Paloma makes a 7.4 gpm model (199K btu), I've installed a good 8-10 in just the last year and the only complaint I got was the last one I did.
He was daunted when the flow restrictor kicked on after opening two shower valves, a lav, kitchen sink and finally a 6gpm roman tub spout on his jacuzzi.
He called me two days later to apologize, he'd stressed out prematurely and realized afterwards how unrealistic it would be to need more than 4 fixtures on at once. (the fact that I'd told him he could use up to 3 fixtures at a time, I had to remind him).
The primary motive for the recent installs is the tax/local gas co incentives, which are over at years end.

[gear junkie]

How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them

[biscuit]

The trouble with Rinnai in my area is the max output model (180K btu) is 5.3 gpm @ 60 incoming water temp, they're actually much cheaper than most tankless models that size(through Ferguson, Roberts friend prompted me to call them).
Rheem/Paloma makes a 7.4 gpm model (199K btu), I've installed a good 8-10 in just the last year and the only complaint I got was the last one I did.
He was daunted when the flow restrictor kicked on after opening two shower valves, a lav, kitchen sink and finally a 6gpm roman tub spout on his jacuzzi.
He called me two days later to apologize, he'd stressed out prematurely and realized afterwards how unrealistic it would be to need more than 4 fixtures on at once. (the fact that I'd told him he could use up to 3 fixtures at a time, I had to remind him).
The primary motive for the recent installs is the tax/local gas co incentives, which are over at years end.


Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.

[biscuit]

How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them

Use a lot of rheem tanks, and for a residential application, I would be willing to try a Marathon if I wanted electric.

[DuckButter]

Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.

Sounds good, what about the price ranges compared to the others?
Bottom line, I won't be installing any tankless's if the customer can't afford it.

[Nevada plumber]

How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them

I just installed my first Marathon water heater yesterday. I have to say I was not terribly impressed. The local power company is pushing them for the energy savings factor, but when I compared the energy sticker off the ten year old Rheem water heater I took out and the new one, the savings came out to $4 a year. At an over $200 price difference, it will take over fifty years to recoup his investment.
Now hopefully the plastic tank will last a lot longer than a metal tank, but that is hard to say. Also, the connections at the top of tank felt very weak to me.

[DuckButter]

Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.

Right, I looked into them, 8.4 gpm which appears to run at around just over $2K, 13.2 gpm for $4K.
Looks like the parent company is Toyota, if they're anything like the cars, they cost alot and run forever.
I'm hard pressed to sell homeowners on the value of Rheem's 7.4 gpm at half the cost of the Noritz 8.3.
Just like cell phone providers years ago, maybe one day these mfg's will figure out that a more realistic price will bring them to the mainstream.

[yasudaplumbing]

I usually pick up:

Bradford White
Rheem/Ruud/RichmondCustomers pick up:

G.E. (Home Depot)
KenmoreState is no longer available here in Hawaii.

Tracy

[westcoastplumber]

I am a huge fan of Bradford White and Rinnai tankless water heaters.

Everyone has their problems, but Bradford White have been far and few between.

Rinnai is the leader in tankless, and for the cost, it is an excellent reliable choice in tankless.

As far as maytag and G.E., I pull them out all the time, some after only 6 months, professional grade water heaters only,

The big box stores can keep their junk, it isn't worth my time to install, and if the customer supplies one, I explain to them that when they have a problem, all the money they saved buying one from a big box, they just lost, because I will charge them to rip ir out, take it back, get the pro rated new one, and charge them to re-install.

Not only that I think it is Maytag that has the backwards threaded themo couple.:eek: :smack-head: If it's not maytag, it's one of the major big box brands that does.

[JERRYMAC]

Hey westcoasters;

have you guys started with the new
ultra low nox waterheaters mandated
by SCAQMD. rule 1121???:D

[biscuit]

Right, I looked into them, 8.4 gpm which appears to run at around just over $2K, 13.2 gpm for $4K.
Looks like the parent company is Toyota, if they're anything like the cars, they cost alot and run forever.
I'm hard pressed to sell homeowners on the value of Rheem's 7.4 gpm at half the cost of the Noritz 8.3.
Just like cell phone providers years ago, maybe one day these mfg's will figure out that a more realistic price will bring them to the mainstream.


I did not say a Noritz was cheap or priced like a Rinnai, but they are our tankless of choice.

Regards,

[drtyhands]

Hey westcoasters;

have you guys started with the new
ultra low nox waterheaters mandated
by SCAQMD. rule 1121???:D
Not yet,just a little while longer.

[DuckButter]

I did not say a Noritz was cheap or priced like a Rinnai, but they are our tankless of choice.

Regards,

It would be my choice too if my customers could afford them.
If I recall, you're commercial anyway, different ballgame altogether when it comes to pricing.

[westcoastplumber]

Not yet,just a little while longer.


December 31st is the last day we can install the current water heaters.

The only way this can change is if the supply house runs out of the old style, then it will be before this date. The supply houses are not allowed to order anymore of the old style, I believe this went into affect Aug 1st.

[PLUMBER RICK]

i've yet to see any new stock heaters. the old stock is next to nothing. supply house tells me their still waiting for the new ones to be delivered.

i guess if a person needs a heater, they better get one soon. there could be a lull in getting a scaqmd approved heater. not to mention the estimated $150. increase in price.

rick.

[yasudaplumbing]

Hey westcoasters;

have you guys started with the new
ultra low nox waterheaters mandated
by SCAQMD. rule 1121???:D

December 31st is the last day we can install the current water heaters.

The only way this can change is if the supply house runs out of the old style, then it will be before this date. The supply houses are not allowed to order anymore of the old style, I believe this went into affect Aug 1st.

i've yet to see any new stock heaters. the old stock is next to nothing. supply house tells me their still waiting for the new ones to be delivered.

i guess if a person needs a heater, they better get one soon. there could be a lull in getting a scaqmd approved heater. not to mention the estimated $150. increase in price.

rick.

Are these just regular tank type gas water heaters (LP / Nat.)?

Tracy

[PLUMBER RICK]

Are these just regular tank type gas water heaters (LP / Nat.)?

Tracy

50 gallons and less under 75,000 btu's. first year.

basically yes. the difference is a stainless steel burner assy that burns ultra clean and is low nox. i believe the design is more of a radiant heat burner.

still waiting for it's arrival.

rick.

[PLUMBER RICK]

update. spoke to my buddy steve and he had a bradford rep at the shop the other day. also he installed 2 new style 30 gallon heaters too. the price was only $20.00 more.

what happened to the $120-150. increase:confused:

got to go and get ready for turkey:angel:

rick.