Two handle tub/shower valves

[Tyman]

Our rep informed us a while back that Delta was not going to make the two handle tub/shower faucets because they are not pressure balanced, or thermostatically controlled.

What brand do you use for replacements for this? I have used the large escutcheon to transition to a single handle but some customers do not like the way it looks.

I have put in two Sayco (Briggs) which I loathe. I had my first recall yesterday from one I installed two months ago for the valve unscrewing out of the body.

I see American Standard makes a economical faucet. Which ones do you like to install and trust?

[Herk]

Our rep informed us a while back that Delta was not going to make the two handle tub/shower faucets because they are not pressure balance, or thermostatically controlled.

So what happened to Delta's Monitor II (http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,220217,00.html) valve that is pressure balancing? Didn't it work?

[DuckButter]

It's funny, depending on where you're from, one mans trash is anothers treasure.
We use a local MFG called Symmons, they invented the pr. balancing cartridge that Delta, Moen(trol), and so many others now use.
The irony here is that Delta isn't very popular compared to Symmons, apparently other parts of the country look at ya cross eyed if ya don't use Delta.
Though Delta IS the most popular mainstream/affordable faucet here, just not the shower valves.

[Tyman]

It's funny, depending on where you're from, one mans trash is anothers treasure.
We use a local MFG called Symmons, they invented the pr. balancing cartridge that Delta, Moen(trol), and so many others now use.
The irony here is that Delta isn't very popular compared to Symmons, apparently other parts of the country look at ya cross eyed if ya don't use Delta.
Though Delta IS the most popular mainstream/affordable faucet here, just not the shower valves.

Not sure where you are going with that post.:confused: Sayco is a Briggs product not a Symmons. I won't be giving you any cross eyed look. I just installed a Symmons in my shower.

So, back on topic, what model of two handle tub/shower faucet do install as replacements?

[Herk]

When I can't change over to a single Posi, I use the Moen two-handle, though I can't say I particularly like them. I've had customers who were used to seat-and-washer faucets just twist the stems off. Most of the valves I replace are single-handle, though.

[Tyman]

Thanks, I check into Moen. I didn't know if this was going to be a industry wide practice to stop making two handle tub/showers or not.

[westcoastplumber]

I use whats called a smitty plate, which I believe you refer to as the large escution.

We are required by code, when doing change outs, the new valves have to be pressure balanced so dependant on the customers taste, I know Kohler makes some inexpensive, excellent shower valves.

If kohler is to fancy, as it can be for some of the older folks, I recommend Symmons, Symmons is an excellent, low cost, solution, meets or exceeds most customers taste and I have never had a call back.

A great thing about Symmons is that you can solder with the brass stem inside and it won't effect it like it will other shower valves.

[drtyhands]

He was trying to not use the smitty plate.

[westcoastplumber]

He was trying to not use the smitty plate.


I don't see any way around not using a smitty plate. The only way is to call out a tile guy to make a repair. My customers will either use the smitty plate, or call a tile guy, a good tile guy will make an excellent repair.

[Herk]

The last Moen I got was customer-supplied. Whatta piece of crap. It had brass male ports for the spout & head. They were very weak-looking and I'm not sure where Moen's going with this, except that they keep finding ways to cheapen their valves. Stick with the solid female brass. I was dealing with galvanized pipe in the wall, and had to use couplings, squeeze the riser out of the wall and rethread it, pain in the tukus.

[plumbdog10]

It's funny, depending on where you're from, one mans trash is anothers treasure.
We use a local MFG called Symmons, they invented the pr. balancing cartridge that Delta, Moen(trol), and so many others now use.
The irony here is that Delta isn't very popular compared to Symmons, apparently other parts of the country look at ya cross eyed if ya don't use Delta.
Though Delta IS the most popular mainstream/affordable faucet here, just not the shower valves.

Duck,

Symmons is used extensively in commercial new construction faucets in California. I know, because this is not based on one company I have worked on, but on the architect's spects. on numerous buildings.

[DuckButter]

The last Moen I got was customer-supplied. Whatta piece of crap. It had brass male ports for the spout & head. They were very weak-looking and I'm not sure where Moen's going with this, except that they keep finding ways to cheapen their valves. Stick with the solid female brass. I was dealing with galvanized pipe in the wall, and had to use couplings, squeeze the riser out of the wall and rethread it, pain in the tukus.

BIG time.

[DuckButter]

Duck,

Symmons is used extensively in commercial new construction faucets in California. I know, because this is not based on one company I have worked on, but on the architect's spects. on numerous buildings.

Wow, the MFG is right here in my state, we have a strong affinity for them and the parts are VERY accessible, easily replaced "one size fits all" stem/seats are universal for their valves, unlike Delta, Kohler and most others.
I have been told by other guys in different states that they are hard to come by, or virtually unknown.
As for moen, they are very flimsy because they are all plastic inside and I don't like installing something a customer could feasibly yank apart, newer Delta's seem to be that way also.
On the flip side, I worked for a shop in an area where the water was rediculously corrosive to metal and moens strength turned out to be the plastic internal parts that don't react to highly corrosive mineral content.

[BAPlumber]

Our rep informed us a while back that Delta was not going to make the two handle tub/shower faucets because they are not pressure balanced, or thermostatically controlled.

What brand do you use for replacements for this? I have used the large escutcheon to transition to a single handle but some customers do not like the way it looks.

I have put in two Sayco (Briggs) which I loathe. I had my first recall yesterday from one I installed two months ago for the valve unscrewing out of the body.

I see American Standard makes a economical faucet. Which ones do you like to install and trust?

I've used this valve a few times when replacing 2 or 3 handle valves.
http://www.pppinc.net/index.php?action=view_document&path=%A6%DD%D4%DA%9E%DB%E6%CB%C2%D4%9E%E6%EE%DF%90 %C9%DF%D0%DA%D0%C6%9A%A1%9E%DB%C9%D5%C9%9E%E3%DC%D B%D5%C7%D3%DE%DA%DB%90%B8%E1%DE%DB%DD%C4%DC%E2%9E% CB%CD%CE%D8%D4%E1%D8%88%B7%C9%DB%E5%DC%DB%90%BC%D4 %DC%E7%95%A5%CD%9C%C3%DC%CB%C9%97%C3%D4%E4%D8%C0%A C%D4%CE%CB%CD%C4%D0%9D%D7%EB%D5%CD&did=1158700709

[DuckButter]

Not sure where you are going with that post.:confused: Sayco is a Briggs product not a Symmons. I won't be giving you any cross eyed look. I just installed a Symmons in my shower.

So, back on topic, what model of two handle tub/shower faucet do install as replacements?

Symmons, thats where I was going.
Welcome to the forum, get to know the regulars, pay attention.
What the others refer to as a "smitty" plate I call a "goof plate", Symmons makes one, an oval shaped chrome plate that has two screws similar to toggles that secure it to the wall and the plate is made to fit under the valves trim, it works with other valves, but you may need to cut some material from the center to conform around their trim.

[DuckButter]

I've used this valve a few times when replacing 2 or 3 handle valves.

At a glance it looks like that valve has pressure balancing, but I don't see any reference to anti-scald..I miss anything?
Also, looks like installing this would require alotta opened wall.
I'm not seeing the advantage to installing something like this over a single handle, unless a customer has a fettish for having to play with the two handles to adjust shower temperatures...

[ToUtahNow]

I'm with dog Symmons is the standard in California and Nevada for anything above residential construction.

Mark

[bigPipe09]

At a glance it looks like that valve has pressure balancing, but I don't see any reference to anti-scald..I miss anything?
Also, looks like installing this would require alotta opened wall.
I'm not seeing the advantage to installing something like this over a single handle, unless a customer has a fettish for having to play with the two handles to adjust shower temperatures...


Look a little closer, it says it has scald protection. I dont know why you would want to install one of these though, looks like a pain in the *** all for nothing . Whats everyone have against single handle (Other than retros) It's 2007 folks. Get on the trolley.

[BAPlumber]

. Whats everyone have against single handle (Other than retros) It's 2007 folks. Get on the trolley.

I think that is the point of this valve. I gives you the ability for temp/pressure balancing when the customer wants a 2 or 3 handle valve or doesn't like the look of a smitty plate.

[DuckButter]

Look a little closer, it says it has scald protection. I dont know why you would want to install one of these though, looks like a pain in the *** all for nothing . Whats everyone have against single handle (Other than retros) It's 2007 folks. Get on the trolley.

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it looks like their reference to scald protection is in regard to the pressure balancing valve under the double handle.
Symmons has both, anti-scald on the handle that only allows it to be opened to the point the hot mixes with cold for a setting of 112 or less (set by the plumber) and scald protection where the balancing cartridge compensates flow to the hot when flow is lost on the cold.
I fully agree with your thoughts on single handle...aside from a fettish for the oldies, it makes no sense why someone would want to have to play with the valves for five minutes first thing every morning to get the temperatures right when all you do with a single valve is remember roughly where you ordinarily put it.
Then there's the fact that valve looks like alot of wall has to be opened to get it in...single valve all you need is a plate to cover the hole.

[drtyhands]

I'm with dog Symmons is the standard in California and Nevada for anything above residential construction.

Mark
The doctor we are doing a surgical clinic for went with the cheapest moen he could get.Probably cause he knows he's only going to be in these suites for a short period of time.

[Herk]

I'd like to revisit my earlier question in regard to Delta - what happened to the Monitor II? I'd think that, since it's about the only pressure-balancing single handle that it would be widely used or more companies would be copying it. There might be a few occasions where it would be difficult to fit, but it should fit the 8" center holes just fine.

[gear junkie]

As for moen, they are very flimsy because they are all plastic inside and I don't like installing something a customer could feasibly yank apart, newer Delta's seem to be that way also.

I was just talking about this the other night on the chat. We have a carpenter at work who thinks he knows plumbing because he knows about primer. Our boss (also a carpenter) told us about a loose handle in one of the showers. Eager to please him with his skills, this guy proceeds to "fix" the handle and somehow pulled the cartridge right out!! Water was going everywhere. The showers were installed with the mixing valve on the backside of the shower. This "plumber" was blocking the water with his body while calling for help. They ran over to get me to help and I told them no. The guy thinks he's a plumber, let him fix his screwup. My BTL is maxed out dealing with people like that.

This is Delta and Sayco country. That's all you see. In 2 years time, I haven't seen any other mixing valve in homes.

[Tyman]

Symmons, thats where I was going.
Welcome to the forum, get to know the regulars, pay attention.
What the others refer to as a "smitty" plate I call a "goof plate", Symmons makes one, an oval shaped chrome plate that has two screws similar to toggles that secure it to the wall and the plate is made to fit under the valves trim, it works with other valves, but you may need to cut some material from the center to conform around their trim.

Duckbutter, I asked about a replacement for a two handle tub/shower combination without a smitty plate.

In your first post you go off about another mans junk is another ones treasure and people looking cross eyed at you because you they don't use Delta. Stating that you use Symmons, who does not make a two handle tub/shower faucet.

Again you recommend a Symmons, who does not make a two handle faucet and you recommend using the oval chrome plate which I said customers did not like.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum. I am not sure what you mean by "get to know the regulars". I have been reading hear since Nov. 06. Maybe you're the one who needs to pay attention.

Duckbutter, I apologize if I am taking your posts the wrong way. Sometimes posts come off different than they mean.

[Tyman]

Herk,
I went on the Delta site and could not find that particular valve. The escutcheons look very large. Reminds me of two single handle valves.
It does seem like it would work as a replacement. Thanks.

[Herk]

I have brochures from Delta from about ten years ago for the Monitor. On the back side of the brochure, there is a picture of the valve itself - it has a pressure-balancing module on one side, and that side is larger than normal. Both water connections are on that side as well. The left handle is volume and the right handle is temperature.

But the supply houses here don't sell Delta, mostly, and I've never used one of these. They're the only two-handle I know of that meets code. Naturally, I'm curious as to why they aren't being used as replacements. Chances are they're too expensive to compete with single-handle valves on new work.

In this area, it seems as though when people don't like what the code says, they just don't do it, then they revise the code a few years later to match what people are doing.

[Tyman]

I agree with you Herk, they do look expensive. Our inspector has ok'd replacement of two handle tub shower valves only. I would rather just install a single handle with a smitty plate but the customer gets what they want. I have my reservations about Moen, as I agree with what other have said about having too much plastic. The search goes on.:D

[drtyhands]

Duckbutter, I asked about a replacement for a two handle tub/shower combination without a smitty plate.

In your first post you go off about another mans junk is another ones treasure and people looking cross eyed at you because you they don't use Delta. Stating that you use Symmons, who does not make a two handle tub/shower faucet.

Again you recommend a Symmons, who does not make a two handle faucet and you recommend using the oval chrome plate which I said customers did not like.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum. I am not sure what you mean by "get to know the regulars". I have been reading hear since Nov. 06. Maybe you're the one who needs to pay attention.

Duckbutter, I apologize if I am taking your posts the wrong way. Sometimes posts come off different than they mean.

I think this is one of those times when one percieves incorrectly.I'm possitive Duck's welcome is genuine.When I invite someone in my home for a gathering I also invite them to get to know my friends:)

[Nevada plumber]

I am not sure if they still make them, but Price Pfister used to have a two and a three handle pressure balancing vale. It was the 02 and the 04 series. The website is very difficult to find things on, but here are some links that should help.

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/pricepfister.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13&p_created=1104439016&p_sid=ZNo_43Ri&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9NDAsNDAmcF9wcm9kcz0xMzksMTU1LDE2NSZwX2N hdHM9MCZwX3B2PTMuMTY1JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/enduser/PRD_11rod_14548_1971.jpg

http://www.pricepfister.com/website/images/PricePfister/0X4-110A.jpg

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/enduser/PRD_11rod_14563_1986.jpg

The link for a parts explosion book for tub and shower valves. Look at pages 6, 7, 12, and 13.
http://www.pricepfister.com/website/Documents/PartsExplosions/Parts%20Exp%20Tub%20&%20Shower.pdf

There is also a company called Danze that makes the valves. I like to stick to more well known names myself, but this is an option. Scroll down near the bottom of this page.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/danze-sheridan.html

[Tyman]

Nevada Plumber,

Thanks for looking that up and posting links. You're right, thier site is terrible. I'm going to run all these options by the boss. I never even thought a pressure balancing valve could be had in a two handle. If I could only convince him to get a See Snake.:rolleyes:

[rmurf69]

Symmons, thats where I was going.
Welcome to the forum, get to know the regulars, pay attention.
What the others refer to as a "smitty" plate I call a "goof plate", Symmons makes one, an oval shaped chrome plate that has two screws similar to toggles that secure it to the wall and the plate is made to fit under the valves trim, it works with other valves, but you may need to cut some material from the center to conform around their trim.


Hey Duckbutter I live here in Mass. also and I know the term goof plate all too well. We either call it a goof plate or a dummy plate. I always feel uncomfortable going into the supply houses and asking for a dummy or goof plate. I did notice on the packaging on the new ones that are out now that they say Rough in plate.

Have you taken the tour of the symmons plant in Braintree? If so did you get the free valve?

[DuckButter]

Tyman, in my state 2, 3 or 4 handle diverters are regarded as dinosaurs, unless you're doing something retro-high end and it has anti-scald built in (not just pressure balancing). I think thats pretty much the rule of thumb anywhere though.
My "One mans trash...another mans treasure" comment, was intended as a side note of sorts relative to THIS topic in choice of name/model valves.
The comment: " Not sure where you are going with that post.:confused: .....
So, back on topic, what model of two handle tub/shower faucet do install as replacements? ", gave me the impression I'd "invaded" your thread.
Adam said it, much gets lost in translation in text without tones.
I hope you don't assume all threads will remain exactly within tolerances set by title/topic ...we are actually allowed to wander. (and boy do we)
What I fail to see is how you intend to get a multiple handle tub/shower faucet into the wall without using a plate if your not planning to have it retiled....unless you're going in from the opposite side. (or were you meaning to just replace stems?)
If thats the case and this customer is that fussy, hell...roll out the stops and see what Grohe, Dornbracht, Jado, maybe even Rohl have in their catalogues.
As for installing one without an anti-scald...I don't want the liability regardless what code allows.
Picture the neighbor stopping by with her 3 yr old who wanders in and plays with the shiney knobs.

[DuckButter]

Hey Duckbutter I live here in Mass. also and I know the term goof plate all too well. We either call it a goof plate or a dummy plate. I always feel uncomfortable going into the supply houses and asking for a dummy or goof plate. I did notice on the packaging on the new ones that are out now that they say Rough in plate.

Have you taken the tour of the symmons plant in Braintree? If so did you get the free valve?

YEAH!!!
Ya gotta stick around...I'm too outnumbered by these wacked left coasters (just kiddin' guys)...pleasure to have a fellow Mass guy here.
And no, I have been yackin 'bout gettin over to Braintree for years but never gotten around to it...anything for a free valve bro.

[bigPipe09]

I am not sure if they still make them, but Price Pfister used to have a two and a three handle pressure balancing vale. It was the 02 and the 04 series. The website is very difficult to find things on, but here are some links that should help.

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/pricepfister.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13&p_created=1104439016&p_sid=ZNo_43Ri&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9NDAsNDAmcF9wcm9kcz0xMzksMTU1LDE2NSZwX2N hdHM9MCZwX3B2PTMuMTY1JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/enduser/PRD_11rod_14548_1971.jpg

http://www.pricepfister.com/website/images/PricePfister/0X4-110A.jpg

https://pricepfister.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/enduser/PRD_11rod_14563_1986.jpg

The link for a parts explosion book for tub and shower valves. Look at pages 6, 7, 12, and 13.
http://www.pricepfister.com/website/Documents/PartsExplosions/Parts%20Exp%20Tub%20&%20Shower.pdf

There is also a company called Danze that makes the valves. I like to stick to more well known names myself, but this is an option. Scroll down near the bottom of this page.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/danze-sheridan.html


A large home improvement chain in Canada called Canadian Tire exclusively sells Danze Taps and shower faucets. Unless you're getting a different line if Danze down south than we are here, I would stay away from these. It's more of a homeowner/slumlord oriented line.

[Wild Weasel]

I'm curious as to why the customer wants to stick with the two handle-system and what advantage there might be to it? My guess is that they just like the way it looks.

I can imagine thinking that if you replace it with same, you won't need to break open the wall and then have to repair it... but won't you have to do this anyway to replace the valve between the handles?

Can you carefully break it apart without destroying the tiles? I suppose then you could put the same tiles back in place so they match what's already there. I suppose there's value to that if you can't get replacements.

Just sort of thinking out loud here... :)

[Herk]

I can imagine thinking that if you replace it with same, you won't need to break open the wall and then have to repair it... but won't you have to do this anyway to replace the valve between the handles?

It's not uncommon for tubs to have an access panel on the other side of the wall. If they don't have one, you can add one. It's far less expensive than ruining a tile job or trying to work with a one-piece fiberglas unit.

FMHA used to have a rule that there must be access from behind or beneath the tub, though it was seldom done in FMHA houses. I had one once and the plumber had forgotten to tighten the unions on the tub valve. They had to make a panel to get into the wall.

Not only is the panel a good access to the valve, it allows access to the drain parts as well.

[Wild Weasel]

Ah. The plumbing for the shower I'm building (which had a two handle system, incidentally) is on an exterior wall so there would have been no access from behind. It obviously makes sense to do it that way given the option!

And now I understand how one might do it without breaking up the tile. :) Thanks!