the two by four dimension, a history question

[cactusman]

Does anyone know the history of the demise of the 2x4?
I wonder when they first started to shave off wood to where we have the 2007 version of the 2x4 which is now around 2 1/2 x 3 1/2????

I might as well ask the same question regarding plywood...the 3/4" is now 23/32 or sometimes even a bit less.

Cactus Man

[Wild Weasel]

I actually did read up on this once, though I can't for the life of me remember the answer.

Frankly, I still think it's dumb. They should call the damned things 2.5 by 3.5's!!

[oldslowchevy]

i know you all mean,,,1.5 x 3.5 , right?

[ToUtahNow]

2" X 4" is the rough sawn lumber size. Today we allow for shrinkage and milling which they did not do in the old days.

Mark

[Wood_Junkie]

2" X 4" is the rough sawn lumber size. Today we allow for shrinkage and milling which they did not do in the old days.

Mark

Apparently, in the old days they *did* account for shrinkage and milling... and the end result was 2" x 4". I'm in my third old house, and the lumber is this darn place is actually 2" x 4"; 2" x 10", 4" x 4", etc.

My theory is that at some point some business egghead / accountant had the bright (profit driven) idea of turning the "variance" for shrinkage and milling on its ear, and applied that "variance" to the finished product, instead of the raw product.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm with everyone in saying... it's annoying! Plywood especially. You can tell it's totally instituionalized by the fact that there's an official name for this deceptive game: "dimensional lumber". HA!

[BHD]

rough lumber was sawed normally 2" x 4" at one time lumber could be bought S1S surfaced one side, and 2S2, or surfaced 2 sides, and for many many years lumber 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" in size, and some time in the mid 70's they changed to 1 1/2" X 3 1/2" first I think some of it was they could cut the rough lumber slightly smaller thus more 2Xs from a log, and ease of figuring Is what the rumours were when the change was taking place, During the change you had to watch very carefully, as some of the lumber was 1,5/8" and some 1,1/2" some times the 2x4s were one size and the larger was the other. it was at times it was fun.

this pdf looks like it cover the actual history very well, http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/miscpub_6409.pdf

[NailBanger]

Let me take this question one step further. Why are 2x4-2x6 precut studs actually 3 1/2" and 5 1/2" but 2x4-2x6 plates are 3 5/8 and 5 5/8. Has anyone else noticed this or is this just a local oddity in my region.

[oldslowchevy]

must be an oddity in your area

[Woussko]

Please note there NailBanger is located. They may not have changed over to the same measurements we in the USA have for finished lumber. The old 1-5/8 by 3-5/8 version of 2 x 4s made us think harder. The current ones of 1-1/2 x 3-1/2 and other 2 x lumber being 1-1/2 think by X-1/2 wide make figuring things out less work. I really would like it if lumber were exact sized.

[big mac]

I remember a few years ago when I was taking a Drafting class (a lot of years ago) that the 2x4 size----height is double the width, etc., etc.,---that this was the most pleasing size to look at and was used as a standard in building------long before a saw mill was even thought of.

The 2" nominal thickness came into being when calculations were made as far as strength was being determined for various species of lumber---apparently 1" material was more than 50% weaker and was not a suitable sample to be tested. I can't quite remember how the whole story goes but I am pretty sure they stayed with the 2x4 ratio in the building trade to make things simpler----I think you can understand why we Canadians hate the metric system when it come to building magerial.

Can you imagine the look on the guys face when you go to order a lift of 19 mm x 1200 mm x 2400mm G1S plywood? :D

[LONGHAIR]

Can you imagine the look on the guys face when you go to order a lift of 19 mm x 1200 mm x 2400mm G1S plywood?

But is the 19mm actually 19mm?
Around here when buying 3/4" ply you get 18mm, but with MDF you get a true 3/4"

[big mac]

I know your frustration--it seems to be different with every manufacturer---hence "measure lots-cut once" :)

[steveKane]

with MDF you get a true 3/4"


I just bought some 1/2" MDF at HD, and it's 15/32" thick. I guess it behooves us to bring our calipers wherever we go to purchase wood, if true thickness is important.

[Woussko]

I just bought some 1/2" MDF at HD, and it's 15/32" thick. I guess it behooves us to bring our calipers wherever we go to purchase wood, if true thickness is important.

Yes it does. If you really need 16/32 check several sources. This is all getting out of hand. Plywood is not the stated thickness anymore either. They cheat all out of greed for more of our $$$.

[smorris]

In adding an addition to my father's house, which he built and moved into 50 years ago this Thanksgiving, there are three sizes of 2X4; 1-1/2 X 3-1/2, 1-5/8 X 3-5/8, and 1-3/4 X 3-3/4. That old 3/4 stuff looks huge compared to today's small stuff. Straight, sharp cornered, and mostly knotless, too. Wish I could get lumber like that now!

[CWSmith]

I am renovating a home that was built in 1887. At the time, the local lumber business was flourishing and I'm pretty sure most of the lumber in this house came from the surrounding area. "Two-by-fours" even after a hundred and twenty years still measure just about 2 by 5 inches. Some variation is apparent, but they are a far sight bigger than today's 1-1/2 x 3-1/5 stuff. So the argument about "allowing for shrinkage", in my mind anyway, is more consumer-hype than anything else.

But beyond that, the dimensional changes don't bother me as much as the extremely poor quality of a lot of today's lumber. Number 2 grade studs don't seem to qualify even for the poorest grade of twenty years ago. I have a workbench that I built for my son (at the time, five) and I used economy grade studs for the legs. Hey, I figure he was just going to beat the heck out of it as he learned to use a hammer. Well, that was 33 years ago and I look at those legs and wonder where such quality lumber could have ever come from. Today's "select" is so full of knots, I can't imagine how you grow a pine tree that so "branched". I wander in the forests around here and about the only thing that I see with branches close enough to leave that many knots is the "Christmas Tree" size.

I wonder if we are sending all of our best lumber to Asia and we Americans are left with the poorest quality junk wood.

CWS

[Lisa_PA]

Anymore it comes down to growing trees, cutting them down, hauling to small custom sawmill (or have it brought to your place), bring home and dry carefully and later do the final machining yourself. What a PITA that can be.

I'm not that old but I sort of remember some not too bad fir and spruce at the smaller lumber yard that's long gone now. Way to go big box dumps.:mad: You ran the good places out.:eek::mad::mad:

[dwcurry]

Let me take this question one step further. Why are 2x4-2x6 precut studs actually 3 1/2" and 5 1/2" but 2x4-2x6 plates are 3 5/8 and 5 5/8. Has anyone else noticed this or is this just a local oddity in my region.


The 2X4 clean (not PT) boards I get at HD are not as wide as the 2x4 PT boards. Same for 2X6, 2X8, etc....)

DWC

[billmoy]

I wonder if we are sending all of our best lumber to Asia and we Americans are left with the poorest quality junk wood.CWS

Ya think!

Tuna, beef, grain, jobs and many other things are sent to Japan and other Asian countries leaving us with the leftovers.

A few years ago, Japan would not allow American grown rice to be imported as it "was not considered as good or as nutritional as the local grown rice. Then they had a very poor harvest and allowed U.S. grown rice to be imported. Guess what, they couldn't tell the difference. Importing U. S. rice now allows then to use some of the rice paddys for other uses such as housing.

Have you ever gone fishing and caught a tuna? The boat captain radios in and guess who is waiting on the pier when the boat docks, A Japanese tuna buyer with a large wad of bills or a checkbook. You have your picture taken with the tuna and quick as a wink it is flash frozen and flown to Japan for Sushi. The canned tuna we get is the scrapings from the bones.

The Japanese have developed a huge taste for American style and sized houses. Guess where the land (rice paddys) and building materials come from. Japans few forests are protected, so they import the logs from, guess who.

I could go on but I think you get the point.

[captainshawn]

As if this was'nt odd enough, when ya get to 2x8 = 1.5x7.25, 2x10 = 1.5x9.25 and 2x12 = 1.5x9.25. Whats up with that?:confused:

[bob bridgewater]

Listen you guys, I aint never heard a good carpenter, instaler complane abut a 1/16" let alone a 1/32". That aint poo to me. Now your 1/8" inch to 5" is just the way things are sometimes. Make it work so it stands the time is what I do.
Maby thats why I still have a job and they give out a ten year warenty on my work.