I'm going to install an on demand heater!!!

[fronty]

I hope this works. I know you guys all think the Bosch AE115 is crap. It is an electric on demand system. I just need the space. I removed a huge solar hot water tank from the laundry room. I was going to put a regular hot water heater in its place and eliminate the one in the attic. Now, I want to give this on demand system a shot. The savings in space is worth it for me even if it doesn't save me any money. If it doesn't work, I'll just take it back to Lowes and buy a regular tank heater. I just have to run two short circuits to it. I'll mount it on the wall and run copper to it. I just decided to waste about 5 dollars in couplings to practice. I'll keep you updated. I'm short on time right now, so I can't put a bypass loop in. I figure I can do it next year sometime. I'm hoping to get some help from you guys if I run into trouble.

Thanks...

[gear junkie]

I hope it works to but I doubt it. Craigslist here is full of Bosch tankless WH that DIY's have gotten rid of. Could you install a gas tankless?

[fronty]

I hope it works to but I doubt it. Craigslist here is full of Bosch tankless WH that DIY's have gotten rid of. Could you install a gas tankless?


Were those new or used? I don't have gas service to the house, or I would install a high end gas one. I figure I can take it back if it doesn't work. I'm hoping it works in my location. I live in Florida and the ground water is pretty warm.

[gear junkie]

Used, diy's put them in their house and don't like them because they didn't want to listen to some plumbers so they install a regular one in. Now they're stuck because HD won't take back a used water heater.

[gear junkie]

Does anyone want to start a pot on how long after Fronty installs this POS that he takes it out? I give him a week.:D

[fronty]

Used, diy's put them in their house and don't like them because they didn't want to listen to some plumbers so they install a regular one in. Now they're stuck because HD won't take back a used water heater.

OK.... Lowes better take it back if it doesn't work. I spend a lot of money there. They should stand behind their products. I'm sure if I complain I can get it done. What about the ground water detail? I haven't turned on my heater once this year. It is pretty warm down here, so temp rise problems shouldn't arise.

[gear junkie]

OK.... Lowes better take it back if it doesn't work. I spend a lot of money there. They should stand behind their products. I'm sure if I complain I can get it done.
Don't confuse "doesn't work" with not meeting your ignorant expectations. Out of curosity, we've discussed this before with you and told you it wouldn't work. Your plumbing experience is nil since you've mentioned in the first post of this thread that "you're buying couplings to practice". Why do you think you know more than a 1000 plus collective years of plumbing experience? I'm not on a frontal assault with this but am curious and wish you the best of luck no matter what decision you make.

[oldslowchevy]

you had better check with lowes frist as i have in the past went to take things back to them and i was told to contact the mfg.

i to live in florida and my cold water is around 70-75degrees year round as the water service is only 8"-12" in the ground due to no frost line here.

[fronty]

Don't confuse "doesn't work" with not meeting your ignorant expectations. Out of curosity, we've discussed this before with you and told you it wouldn't work. Your plumbing experience is nil since you've mentioned in the first post of this thread that "you're buying couplings to practice". Why do you think you know more than a 1000 plus collective years of plumbing experience? I'm not on a frontal assault with this but am curious and wish you the best of luck no matter what decision you make.

Why do people have to be asses for? Look buddy.... My expectations aren't ignorant. I did my research. I travel a lot and do not use hot water for dishes, laundry, etc... The ONLY thing I use hot water for is showers. I don't have a jacuzzi or fill up bath tubs. Therefore, I am heating a tank 365 days a year to use for 15 minutes a day when I'm in town. I take it as a "frontal assault." Your showing your ignorance and intelligence by acting combative over this issue. You don't know me and my education far exceeds yours. Maybe, you may have more plumbing knowledge, but academically you couldn't hold a candle to me. Also, I was HVAC technician for years when I was younger and could braze the joints without any problems. I just haven't SOLDERED in a while. My electrical knowledge far exceeds yours as well. How am I being the ignorant one? If this thing can provide a decent temperature shower for 15 minutes a day, it will have exceeded my expectations. That is what I mean by doesn't work.

[plumberscrack]

Were those new or used? I don't have gas service to the house, or I would install a high end gas one. I figure I can take it back if it doesn't work. I'm hoping it works in my location. I live in Florida and the ground water is pretty warm.

Then buy a high end propane model and be happy.

The electric on-demand heater is going to be trouble

Just so I don't have to come back later and post this: "We told you so!":speechless:

Let us know how this works out for you, good or bad

[gear junkie]

uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field; "she is ignorant of quantum mechanics"; "he is musically illiterate"
unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge; "he was completely ignorant of the circumstances"; "an unknowledgeable assistant"; "his rudeness was unwitting"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dignorant&usg=AFQjCNEpx7jaOOz1b1byQKF-KrpElzj9eQ)
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is also the state of being ignorant or uninformed. For example, "Bill lost the debate because he was ignorant of that subject. ...


This is the defintion of ignorant. I'm not calling you stupid or dumb or attacking yourknowledge as you have done with me. I'm simply stating that you don't know all there is to know about these things. You've posted on this subject before, and what you said that this was for a house. How do I know that you need this for only a 15 min shower? How did I know you don't wash clothes with hot water or do dishes? There's a saying in the navy "$hit in is $hit out". Let me explain before you go haywire again. You're only going to get as much information or help as you give out. Tell a doctor "my back hurts". Can he make an accurate diagnosis based off that information? It's the same thing. Going through your past posts and reading your responses, I would think you're a handyman based on the amount and type of questions you ask. Here's an example, you ask how to run a 1/2" gas line but your house doesn't have gas?

Don't ever think that by me being a plumber or hvac tech that you're smarter than me based soley off that assumption. One of the smartest men I ever met had a 2nd grade education. I care not to know of your intelligence level. This is a plumbing forum and that's what matters.

P.S. These water heaters are called "tankless" not "on demand". On demand is typically for hot water at the sink for coffee or tea. How much research did you do again?

[ToUtahNow]

Then buy a high end propane model and be happy.

The electric on-demand heater is going to be trouble

Just so I don't have to come back later and post this: "We told you so!":speechless:

Let us know how this works out for you, good or bad

You have to be approved for bulk propane storage before you can just put one in. Not all areas have proper set-backs to even allow bulk propane storage.

Mark

[plumberscrack]

You have to be approved for bulk propane storage before you can just put one in. Not all areas have proper set-backs to even allow bulk propane storage.

Mark

Really? I didn't know that. What about my propane tank for my grill?

Every house I've worked in the past 15 years has had a natural gas line. The only time I see a large propane tank is for a carriage house heater.

[ToUtahNow]

Don't confuse "doesn't work" with not meeting your expectations. Out of curosity, we've discussed this before with you and told you it wouldn't work. Your plumbing experience is nil since you've mentioned in the first post of this thread that "you're buying couplings to practice". Why do you think you know more than a 1000 plus collective years of plumbing experience? I'm not on a frontal assault with this but am curious and wish you the best of luck no matter what decision you make.

Ben my good buddy, I think your reply was great except for your use of the word ignorant. The minute you use it with anyone the receiver of your message will dismiss the rest of your message. This is all part of the people skills we all must learn if we are going to work with the public. I have taken the liberty of editing your post and I ask you read the edited version and see if that might have been a better way of expressing yourself.

Mark

[Wild Weasel]

What I'm gathering from this thread is that tankless water heaters are a good idea, but that the electric ones don't work worth a damn.

To clarify; what's wrong with electric? Does the water not get hot enough or is it a volume issue?

And before anyone attacks me... I'm functionally retarded and 4 year olds can beat me at flash cards.

[oldslowchevy]

Why do people have to be asses for? it is human nature

Look buddy.... My expectations aren't ignorant. I did my research. I travel a lot and do not use hot water for dishes, laundry, etc... The ONLY thing I use hot water for is showers. think you should have stated this in the begining??

I don't have a jacuzzi or fill up bath tubs. Therefore, I am heating a tank 365 days a year to use for 15 minutes a day when I'm in town. I take it as a "frontal assault." Your showing your ignorance and intelligence by acting combative over this issue. but you showed yours frist by not provieding all the facts.

You don't know me and my education far exceeds yours. who the he!l cares? good for you but this is not what you do for a living, and this IS what these guys do for a living so now why are you asking us dumbys for help?


Maybe, you may have more plumbing knowledge, but academically you couldn't hold a candle to me. awww do you feel better now?

Also, I was HVAC technician for years when I was younger and could braze the joints without any problems. I just haven't SOLDERED in a while. practic makes perfect.


My electrical knowledge far exceeds yours as well. again then why are you asking us for help?

How am I being the ignorant one? hummmm where do i start?

If this thing can provide a decent temperature shower for 15 minutes a day, it will have exceeded my expectations. That is what I mean by doesn't work.


i really think you need to clam down and think about this all over again, like why not get an eletric tank heater and when you leave town flip the breaker off.

on a side note ben i see why you do not like to offer advise now gee wiz.

[ToUtahNow]

Really? I didn't know that. What about my propane tank for my grill?

Every house I've worked in the past 15 years has had a natural gas line. The only time I see a large propane tank is for a carriage house heater.

Your portable tank does not count but consider even a 500 gallon tank need to be 10' from the house and 10' feet from the property line. Assuming the tank is 5' in diameter the minimum required distance you would need would be 25'. Much of Southern California has 5' set backs so where do you put the tank? Now go to a 501 gallon tank and you add 30' to the requirement.

Mark

[biscuit]

I have looked at the flow rates for some of these and its not impressive, the most drastic thing I noticed is the 200 amp service required:D.

However it is worth noting that the small one only requires a 150 amp electrical service.

Thats going to be one expensive install.

[oldslowchevy]

i just do not understand why not to put in a small 30-35 gallon (camper type) eletric tank heater? atleast at that point if he spends more time at home he can up grade to a larger tank if needed.

[gear junkie]

Ben my good buddy, I think your reply was great except for your use of the word ignorant. The minute you use it with anyone the receiver of your message will dismiss the rest of your message. This is all part of the people skills we all must learn if we are going to work with the public. I have taken the liberty of editing your post and I ask you read the edited version and see if that might have been a better way of expressing yourself.

Mark
Mark, I want to think I'm right about this and say "ignorant" was the right word(Fronty just didn't know enought about them) but experience has taught through my Dad that you're right. He'll often tell me an observation about myself and I'll dismiss it. At a later time, I'll realize how right he was. This is probably one of those times. I think you've realized that I'm not the most tactful person at times. Everyone matures in different areas at different rates in life.

Fronty; I apologize for calling your expectations "ignorant".

Ben

[ToUtahNow]

Mark, I want to think I'm right about this and say "ignorant" was the right word(Fronty just didn't know enought about them) but experience has taught through my Dad that you're right. He'll often tell me an observation about myself and I'll dismiss it. At a later time, I'll realize how right he was. This is probably one of those times. I think you've realized that I'm not the most tactful person at times. Everyone matures in different areas at different rates in life.

Fronty; I apologize for calling your expectations "ignorant".

Ben

Stand up thing to do Ben

Mark

[biscuit]

Stand up thing to do Ben

Mark

Agreed!

[westcoastplumber]

OK.... Lowes better take it back if it doesn't work. I spend a lot of money there. They should stand behind their products. I'm sure if I complain I can get it done. What about the ground water detail? I haven't turned on my heater once this year. It is pretty warm down here, so temp rise problems shouldn't arise.



Lowe's should take it back, so should home depot if they sell tankless, you know why they should take it back? because they were stupid enough to sell it to a handyman homeowner DIY'er that is not certified or has the knowledge to install it.

[plumberscrack]

Lowe's should take it back, so should home depot if they sell tankless, you know why they should take it back? because they were stupid enough to sell it to a handyman homeowner DIY'er that is not certified or has the knowledge to install it.


:thumbup2::thumbup2:

[oldslowchevy]

heyyyy i resemble that remark

[All Clear Sewer]

OK.... Lowes better take it back if it doesn't work. I spend a lot of money there. They should stand behind their products. I'm sure if I complain I can get it done. What about the ground water detail? I haven't turned on my heater once this year. It is pretty warm down here, so temp rise problems shouldn't arise.
I can tell ya first hand that they wont take back a 40gal gas water heater and I spend a ton of money there every week!
Good Luck ;)

[fronty]

Then buy a high end propane model and be happy.

The electric on-demand heater is going to be trouble

Just so I don't have to come back later and post this: "We told you so!":speechless:

Let us know how this works out for you, good or bad

I will definitely come back and post either way. I am not trying to hide my experience. It is going to be a gamble with this thing.

[fronty]

uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field; "she is ignorant of quantum mechanics"; "he is musically illiterate"
unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge; "he was completely ignorant of the circumstances"; "an unknowledgeable assistant"; "his rudeness was unwitting"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dignorant&usg=AFQjCNEpx7jaOOz1b1byQKF-KrpElzj9eQ)
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is also the state of being ignorant or uninformed. For example, "Bill lost the debate because he was ignorant of that subject. ...


This is the defintion of ignorant. I'm not calling you stupid or dumb or attacking yourknowledge as you have done with me. I'm simply stating that you don't know all there is to know about these things. You've posted on this subject before, and what you said that this was for a house. How do I know that you need this for only a 15 min shower? How did I know you don't wash clothes with hot water or do dishes? There's a saying in the navy "$hit in is $hit out". Let me explain before you go haywire again. You're only going to get as much information or help as you give out. Tell a doctor "my back hurts". Can he make an accurate diagnosis based off that information? It's the same thing. Going through your past posts and reading your responses, I would think you're a handyman based on the amount and type of questions you ask. Here's an example, you ask how to run a 1/2" gas line but your house doesn't have gas?

Don't ever think that by me being a plumber or hvac tech that you're smarter than me based soley off that assumption. One of the smartest men I ever met had a 2nd grade education. I care not to know of your intelligence level. This is a plumbing forum and that's what matters.

P.S. These water heaters are called "tankless" not "on demand". On demand is typically for hot water at the sink for coffee or tea. How much research did you do again?


I know the denotative meaning of ignorance, but there is also negative connotations that go along with that word. I took offense to it. Calling someone ignorant no matter what the situation will always create a bad reaction. Let's say a new employee starts his first job. Would it be appropriate for a supervisor to walk up to him and say are you the ignorant new hire? No.... the word shouldn't be used in certain contexts. If you would have used inexperienced, I would have agreed with you. I wasn't trying to say anything as far as how intelligent you are. I was just trying to rebut your statement by showing you that I am knowledgeable in other areas other than plumbing.


As far as gas goes, we do not use that much gas in the HVAC field down in Florida. We have absolutely no need for it. A lot of houses run strictly off electric. I would say that almost 85 percent of the houses either have electric heat or use heat pumps. There are a few gas furnaces out there. You will hardly ever see one over 80 percent efficiency though. A lot of people up north can't believe this. They act like people in the south just aren't smart enough to install 90 plus efficiency units. The fact is that you wouldn't see a return on going with a unit of that type. You just don't run the heat enough. I haven't turned it on once this year. I was also wearing shorts and shirt today trying to get this thing installed.

[fronty]

Ben my good buddy, I think your reply was great except for your use of the word ignorant. The minute you use it with anyone the receiver of your message will dismiss the rest of your message. This is all part of the people skills we all must learn if we are going to work with the public. I have taken the liberty of editing your post and I ask you read the edited version and see if that might have been a better way of expressing yourself.

Mark

Thank you Mark...

I did take offense to it. Read all my other posts. I respect all of you guys and really appreciate your help. I kind of regret my response, but I do not like that word at all.

[fronty]

What I'm gathering from this thread is that tankless water heaters are a good idea, but that the electric ones don't work worth a damn.

To clarify; what's wrong with electric? Does the water not get hot enough or is it a volume issue?

And before anyone attacks me... I'm functionally retarded and 4 year olds can beat me at flash cards.

The efficiency is great, but it takes a lot of power to produce adequate amounts of heat. My unit is very small, and I had to run to circuits to it.

[fronty]

i really think you need to clam down and think about this all over again, like why not get an eletric tank heater and when you leave town flip the breaker off.

on a side note ben i see why you do not like to offer advise now gee wiz.


I do not have a regular schedule and leave for weeks at a time. A hot water heater should be out of sight out of mind in my opinion.

[fronty]

Mark, I want to think I'm right about this and say "ignorant" was the right word(Fronty just didn't know enought about them) but experience has taught through my Dad that you're right. He'll often tell me an observation about myself and I'll dismiss it. At a later time, I'll realize how right he was. This is probably one of those times. I think you've realized that I'm not the most tactful person at times. Everyone matures in different areas at different rates in life.

Fronty; I apologize for calling your expectations "ignorant".

Ben

It is definitely a poor choice of words. Please see my example. I can give you a lot more if you would like. It isn't a word that should be in your vocabulary.

[fronty]

Lowe's should take it back, so should home depot if they sell tankless, you know why they should take it back? because they were stupid enough to sell it to a handyman homeowner DIY'er that is not certified or has the knowledge to install it.

I also cut the bottom of the unit out instead of cutting through a tamper proof seal on the top. There are a lot of DIY things that people can do. You do not have to be "certified" to do everything. What certification are you referring to anyways? I'm seeking for the knowledge to install it from you guys. I have the knowledge of the electrical.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I have looked at the flow rates for some of these and its not impressive, the most drastic thing I noticed is the 200 amp service required:D.

However it is worth noting that the small one only requires a 150 amp electrical service.

Thats going to be one expensive install.

that is really the determining factor. i have a customer that has one. the only reason why it worked/ works is she lives alone, her condo was right behind the electrical main to the building. the other units are too far away to the electrical panel to make it worthwhile.

not sure how her electrical bill has changed. she is in santa monica and the ground water is not as warm as florida, but not too far off.

it will be very interesting to hear about the electrical requirements.

if i remember correctly the unit required 3 sets of double 60 amp breakers. that's more than 3 arc welder on high amperage at the same time:eek:

i hope he has the panel for this and breaker space for this.

please post the specs for this heater.

gpm

temp rise.

amperage

rick.

[fronty]

Wow!!! I left for a basketball game and was fully prepared to be bashed by members of this board. I'm glad you guys saw my true intentions. I respect all of you and wish I had the same knowledge in plumbing. I wouldn't have to visit forums then. I know.... I know..... Everyone told me not to go with this unit. Here are the reasons I decided to GIVE IT A TRY.

-I found out the heater in the attic is only 30 gallons. I have no complaints.
-I only use hot water to take showers and nothing else.
-I travel a lot.
-I had to run a new circuit anyways and had extra wire. I just had to pull extra wire.
-I can (hopefully) return the unit at lowes.
-The ground water in Florida is extremely high and consistent.
-I really really need the space in the area.
-I couldn't find a electric heater from a different manufacturers you guys recommended.

This thing can't have a 100 percent failure rate. It has to work in some applications. If it can't work in my application than they couldn't sell it. I have really high ground water temperature and barely will use it. That is why I chose to give it a try. I was actually excited about installing this thing until Ben's comments. I just like working with my hands. I will fill you guys in either way. I promise to give a honest evaluation.

[Ace Sewer]

http://www.boschhotwater.com/Portals/7/Marketing/AE115125SellSheet.pdf

this thing draws 80 amps! and thats to bring 2.6gpm (which ain't much of a shower) up from a generous 60F starting temp to 105F (which ain't that hot). 80 amps! i'm no electrician but thats some big wire lol. what is the size of the electrical service into your house? I'd say even if you have the 80A avail you are on the ragged edge of an acceptable shower, only if no other fixtures are pulling hot water at the same time and even then only because you live in a place where your water is likely to be warm out of the ground. I remember discussing something like this with a collegue who installed a whole house one here that was 200A and was inadequate...but our cold water is cold.... im guessing 35-40 F, and this was a house where more than one person stayed. good luck!

[fronty]

that is really the determining factor. i have a customer that has one. the only reason why it worked/ works is she lives alone, her condo was right behind the electrical main to the building. the other units are too far away to the electrical panel to make it worthwhile.

not sure how her electrical bill has changed. she is in santa monica and the ground water is not as warm as florida, but not too far off.

it will be very interesting to hear about the electrical requirements.

if i remember correctly the unit required 3 sets of double 60 amp breakers. that's more than 3 arc welder on high amperage at the same time:eek:

i hope he has the panel for this and breaker space for this.

please post the specs for this heater.

gpm

temp rise.

amperage

rick.

I bought the smaller of the two units. It runs off of two 40 amp breakers. I'll post the specs tomorrow.

[PLUMBER RICK]

http://www.boschhotwater.com/Portals/7/Marketing/AE115125SellSheet.pdf

this thing draws 80 amps! and thats to bring 2.6gpm (which ain't much of a shower) up from a generous 60F starting temp to 105F (which ain't that hot). 80 amps! i'm no electrician but thats some big wire lol. what is the size of the electrical service into your house? I'd say even if you have the 80A avail you are on the ragged edge of an acceptable shower, only if no other fixtures are pulling hot water at the same time and even then only because you live in a place where your water is likely to be warm out of the ground. I remember discussing something like this with a collegue who installed a whole house one here that was 200A and was inadequate...but our cold water is cold.... im guessing 35-40 F, and this was a house where more than one person stayed. good luck!

I bought the smaller of the two units. It runs off of two 40 amp breakers. I'll post the specs tomorrow.

fronty, that's 2 sets of 40 amp double pole breakers. meaning 80 amps at 240 volts.

the minimum panel is a 150 amp service.

i hope you did check the specs. throughly.

rick.

[fronty]

fronty, that's 2 sets of 40 amp double pole breakers. meaning 80 amps at 240 volts.

the minimum panel is a 150 amp service.

i hope you did check the specs. throughly.

rick.


I know. The electrical is already run. I just need to do the water connections today.

[drtyhands]

O/K I got it.It was more cost effective for you to run your own wire than to have a plumber come in and run gas and vent.I can appreciate the intention.

I myself never knew these units were so slow until now.

I'm not a fan at all of water wasting shower heads.Mine's more like a glorified mister.I don't need a lot of hot water for my shower.

Fronty,I would like to hear your honest opinion after you get it installed.

[biscuit]

It will be intresting to get the feedback on this one.

One thing worth noting is the flow rate. I would go ahead and get a loooooow flow shower head to give it a honest chance of working.

Regards,

[PLUMBER RICK]

O/K I got it.It was more cost effective for you to run your own wire than to have a plumber come in and run gas and vent.I can appreciate the intention.

I myself never knew these units were so slow until now.

I'm not a fan at all of water wasting shower heads.Mine's more like a glorified mister.I don't need a lot of hot water for my shower.

Fronty,I would like to hear your honest opinion after you get it installed.

maybe that's why you still have "dirtyhands":D

rick.

[fronty]

What is proper/common procedure for the final connection to the unit? I decided to run copper the entire way. I tried looking at WC plumbers pics on the Rannai install, but I couldn't see under it. I was thinking about getting a fitting threaded/sweat to connect to the heater, but I wasn't sure if it was necessary to add unions. I could add copper flex lines and eliminate the need for a union. Hopefully, I will have time to get this thing running and post pics.

[oldslowchevy]

yes the pics would be most helpful

[ToUtahNow]

What is proper/common procedure for the final connection to the unit? I decided to run copper the entire way. I tried looking at WC plumbers pics on the Rannai install, but I couldn't see under it. I was thinking about getting a fitting threaded/sweat to connect to the heater, but I wasn't sure if it was necessary to add unions. I could add copper flex lines and eliminate the need for a union. Hopefully, I will have time to get this thing running and post pics.

All of the Codes I work under require unions at the supply lines of the water heater.

Mark

[oldslowchevy]

just on a side note, sice you said you live in florida, and florida law requires you to pull a permit on water heaters (witch for some reason i do not belive you have done) your work should have to be insepected not only for electric, but for the plumbing. and florida law requires that the seller of water heaters only accept returned, or defetive heaters that were proprly installed and signed off by BOTH the contractor, and the INSPECTOR. now you can be the contractor, but there is now way you can be the inspector.

so i really hope you are coving your but on this and even though you have a vast amont of eletric knowlage, IF your home burns down and the heater is the souce of the fire your home owners insurece will not pay off due to improper install if it is not inspected.

again i am not riding you, i am just making sure you have tought of evey thing.

[fronty]

I was thinking about putting on two di-electric unions at the nipples that come out of the unit. Is this the best route?

[gear junkie]

I was thinking about putting on two di-electric unions at the nipples that come out of the unit. Is this the best route?
Yes

[fronty]

Yes

Thanks

[PLUMBER RICK]

so is it a cold shower:eek: or a warm shower:)

did you not finish:confused:

don't keep me hanging. we're all curious;)

rick.

[fronty]

I didn't have time to work on it much yesterday. I've been just chipping away at it.

[westcoastplumber]

I also cut the bottom of the unit out instead of cutting through a tamper proof seal on the top. There are a lot of DIY things that people can do. You do not have to be "certified" to do everything. What certification are you referring to anyways? I'm seeking for the knowledge to install it from you guys. I have the knowledge of the electrical.


I have approx 12 hrs of certification to install Rinnai Tankless heaters, a quality brand you won't find in Home Depot or Lowes.

I have completed multiple installations and retrofits where my customers are very satisfied, to do this, I had to size both gas and water to complete this properly, not guess and hope I am right.

As for your installation, you need to install a service manifold at the unit, both hot and cold. They have manifolds made up for this, so a professional can service the unit and if there is a problem, diagnos the unit also.

Big box stores do not sell this set up, so you will have to go to a supply house, this will cost you around $100, your price, not a trade professionals cost.

[westcoastplumber]

I was thinking about putting on two di-electric unions at the nipples that come out of the unit. Is this the best route?


This is a horrible way to install the unit. Use the kit mentioned above.

http://www.trulythefinest.com/products/tfholding/rheem/AP13892.jpg

Here is a picture. and a link, a bit expensive though.

http://www.trulythefinest.com/proddetail.cfm/34875,Installation_Kit

[fronty]

I thought I saw those on the Rinnai install. They do not sell an electric unit, or I would have bought a better unit. I don't think a lot of manufacturers make them because of the amount of power needed and a need for high ground water temps (low temp rise). I didn't mean anything by you have to be certified, but I don't think you have to be to do a good job. You don't have to "guess" to do it properly. That is why I come here for. I just want to do a good job on my project. I don't have gas so sizing gas lines isn't a problem. Moreover, the inlet/outlet water pipes going to the water heater are 3/4in. I can't really do anything as far as that goes that goes nor would I want to. As far as the electric goes, it is all properly sized wires and breakers. I didn't add the dielectric unions because the nipples are brass on this unit. I just when with a copper union. Do I really need this service manifold? I will do all of the service on it (I haven't got to that point). I was thinking about buying a couple more unions and making my own fabricated service hookups. I basically would disconnect the unions and hook up my fabricated service ports. I'm guessing that I will need to have some kind of circulater pump that cycles a cleaner of some sort through the system.

[plumberscrack]

For this particular unit you won't need a service manifold.

By the time it needs service it will need to be replaced.

Good thinking installing the unions. :)

[fronty]

For this particular unit you won't need a service manifold.

By the time it needs service it will need to be replaced.

Good thinking installing the unions. :)

I hope not. The parts are pretty basic except the solid state board, so it will not cost much to fix. The heat exchanger has a 10 year warranty. Does anybody have hands on experience with Bosch, or are you guys just saying all these things because they sell them at Lowes? I noticed people talk crap about Whirlpool water heaters because Lowes sells them and mine lasted 28 years.

[oldslowchevy]

seems to me from what i have read everyone just trashes it but i am still in amazement that this thing is taking you so long to install, i under stand you want this to be a clean install but come on now you have been at this for almost 4 days now.

oh and where are the pics?

[fronty]

seems to me from what i have read everyone just trashes it but i am still in amazement that this thing is taking you so long to install, i under stand you want this to be a clean install but come on now you have been at this for almost 4 days now.

oh and where are the pics?

I haven't been working on it all day long. I have been just chipping away at it. An hour here and hour there. I had to do some repiping in the attic and get rid of the solar water heater tank and water heater tank.

[PLUMBER RICK]

seems to me from what i have read everyone just trashes it but i am still in amazement that this thing is taking you so long to install, i under stand you want this to be a clean install but come on now you have been at this for almost 4 days now.

oh and where are the pics?

sunday is bathing day. you better stop posting and start plumbing:D

if you're not back on come sunday night, i can only assume you blew out your electrical panel and the computer is dead:eek:

keep us posted, but we need to know if this works and what is the gpm you get from it. if you can give us the cold water temp and the hot water temp/ rise along with the gpm. we would like to see the #'s.

now back to work as i have an underground/ concrete leak to fix.

rick.

[fronty]

It is going to be tough to get this thing finished because of Christmas, but I will try my best. It isn't too bad taking cold showers in Florida. The water temp is around 70 degrees. Why is everyone concerned about gpm? This unit is only supposed to supply one fixture at a time. I think 2.6 gpm of hot water is plenty for any shower. What am I missing here? Those large gas units are for more than one fixture at a time.

[plumberscrack]

I hope not. The parts are pretty basic except the solid state board, so it will not cost much to fix. The heat exchanger has a 10 year warranty. Does anybody have hands on experience with Bosch, or are you guys just saying all these things because they sell them at Lowes? I noticed people talk crap about Whirlpool water heaters because Lowes sells them and mine lasted 28 years.

TBH in the past 10 years I have worked on maybe 5 or 6 of these electric on-demand heaters so take my advice for what it's worth...nearly nothing. And of those six maybe four of them were less than 2 years old and were beyond repair. Meaning solid state board was toasted. One even caused a small fire. The heat exchanger is not the weak link in these units. I believe Bosch makes some excellent products in the tool line and even some decent dishwashers. Water heaters?..not so much a fan. It doesn't matter where you bought the product; Lowes, HD, Ebay I still won't like it. That Whirlpool heater you have didn't come from Lowes and any manufacturer can make a tank type water heater last 30 years with proper maintenance.

Don't get me started on the quality of Whirlpool products of yesterday compared to the ones being made today.

[PLUMBER RICK]

It is going to be tough to get this thing finished because of Christmas, but I will try my best. It isn't too bad taking cold showers in Florida. The water temp is around 70 degrees. Why is everyone concerned about gpm? This unit is only supposed to supply one fixture at a time. I think 2.6 gpm of hot water is plenty for any shower. What am I missing here? Those large gas units are for more than one fixture at a time.

2.5 gpm of water per shower head is our code. so your fine. but don't do the laundry while you're showering:eek:

by the way, what size is your electrical service to the home? you might need to shower in the dark:D

rick.

[oldslowchevy]

but don't do the laundry while you're showering:eek:


rick he said he does not wash clothes. or atleaset not there:)

[fronty]

TBH in the past 10 years I have worked on maybe 5 or 6 of these electric on-demand heaters so take my advice for what it's worth...nearly nothing. And of those six maybe four of them were less than 2 years old and were beyond repair. Meaning solid state board was toasted. One even caused a small fire. The heat exchanger is not the weak link in these units. I believe Bosch makes some excellent products in the tool line and even some decent dishwashers. Water heaters?..not so much a fan. It doesn't matter where you bought the product; Lowes, HD, Ebay I still won't like it. That Whirlpool heater you have didn't come from Lowes and any manufacturer can make a tank type water heater last 30 years with proper maintenance.

Don't get me started on the quality of Whirlpool products of yesterday compared to the ones being made today.


Are you serious? Four out of six Bosch units you worked on were beyond repair after two years. That would be unacceptable in my book. They have to sell quite a few of these things. Where are all the bad reviews? I have seen only a few of them. I didn't service my whirlpool water heater once. The only thing that was ever done to it was the heating elements were replaced. Why didn't you just replace the solid state board? It shouldn't have cost that much.

[fronty]

Sorry, I didn't see that you said electric units and not Bosch specifically. Do you remember which units these were?

[fronty]

I just did a little searching and noticed that there are more Rinnai units on ebay than Bosch. I only saw one electric unit on there and there are none on craigslist in my area. I don't think that means much, but I believe someone said that everyone that buys them from lowes ends up taking them out and selling them. The control board is pricey though. I guess it is like that for everything though.

[plumberscrack]

Sorry, I didn't see that you said electric units and not Bosch specifically. Do you remember which units these were?

None were Bosch that I remember. I have worked on several tankless Bosch gas units. Most of those failed due to improper installation. Eemaxx, Stiebel
and maybe one was PVI not sure on that. One that caught fire had no name or model that I could find :eek:

Naturally my view of them is slighly skewed. I will only see the ones that have failed and for every one of those, there may be hundreds operating flawlessly.

You are in Florida which is zone 1. I'm zone 4 so heaters here have to work much harder than yours.

[oldslowchevy]

will you stop reserching and start installing
lol just teasin

[fronty]

will you stop reserching and start installing
lol just teasin


LOL... I know I am a little lazy. I have some things I need to get done before I go work on it.

[Bob D.]

will you stop reserching and start installing
lol just teasin

Yeah, less yacking and more hacking!! :D

[westcoastplumber]

I just did a little searching and noticed that there are more Rinnai units on ebay than Bosch. I only saw one electric unit on there and there are none on craigslist in my area. I don't think that means much, but I believe someone said that everyone that buys them from lowes ends up taking them out and selling them. The control board is pricey though. I guess it is like that for everything though.


The reason you see so many rinnai and other units on e-bay is because people do not know how to install them properly and they are unhappy with the performance.

As for the isolation valves and service manifold I posted, every tankless, gas or electric should have one installed, if I go to a tankless unit and it is not on the unit, I consider it an improper installation.

Do it right the first time. I also do not recommend you servicing the unit yourself when it fails, unless you are only going to run the vinager mixture through to clean the heat exchanger.

[fronty]

The reason you see so many rinnai and other units on e-bay is because people do not know how to install them properly and they are unhappy with the performance.

As for the isolation valves and service manifold I posted, every tankless, gas or electric should have one installed, if I go to a tankless unit and it is not on the unit, I consider it an improper installation.

Do it right the first time. I also do not recommend you servicing the unit yourself when it fails, unless you are only going to run the vinager mixture through to clean the heat exchanger.

I would have gone with Rinnai if I had gas service. Why shouldn't I service the unit? It is extremely basic. It just has heating elements, themal cutouts, flow transducer, control board, etc... I used to work as a senior HVAC service technician and have worked a lot more complicated controls than this. A basic heat pump is more complicated than these things and that isn't saying much.

[westcoastplumber]

I would have gone with Rinnai if I had gas service. Why shouldn't I service the unit? It is extremely basic. It just has heating elements, themal cutouts, flow transducer, control board, etc... I used to work as a senior HVAC service technician and have worked a lot more complicated controls than this. A basic heat pump is more complicated than these things and that isn't saying much.


If you have all that experience, service the unit then, but if you do something incorrectly, you may void the warrenty.

You sound like a bright guy, I am suprised you even came here looking for answers.

Good luck and happy hot water.

[fronty]

If you have all that experience, service the unit then, but if you do something incorrectly, you may void the warrenty.

You sound like a bright guy, I am suprised you even came here looking for answers.

Good luck and happy hot water.


I see the sarcasm. I'm not saying I know everything, but you are making it sound like everyone that isn't a plumber knows nothing or can't do the job properly. I'm no plumber and I know my limits. I wouldn't attempt to do certain things, but this is a manageable task. Just by the fact that I came to this forum, shows that I want to do a decent job. I sought help for my roofing project as well and a few roofers gave me crap about wanting to do it myself. Well, my roof turned out better than my neighbors. He had his done by the company that I originally planned on having do mine. The inspector even couldn't believe that I did my roof myself. He said it looked better than 95 percent of the roofs that he inspects. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't let half of the people that I met during my HVAC days install or even touch my unit. A lot of people do not appreciate good workmanship anymore. They just think if it works it works, or they weren't trained properly. I know you are different and actually care about your work. It is sad to say, but a person like you is far and few between. Believe it or not there are homeowners/diy'ers that do just a good a job, if not better, than some contractors. I bet you are like me. I used to walk up to installations that cost 10k plus and couldn't believe how they were installed. Why did they do this? Why didn't they do that? Those are the questions I would always ask myself. On the other hand though, I am a practical person. I'm not going to spend between $100 and $160 on that service manifold, when I can fabricate something that will do the exact same job for under $20. It is not that I don't care about the quality. I do care about the quality, but it doesn't limit it in the least. I can still get the exact same job done as those valves would do. It will be in a different matter though. I bet you are a type of person that wishes the big box stores would stop selling to homeowners. I thought about that too. The only thing that stops them from selling air conditioners is the EPA regulations on refrigerant and the connections. Most homeowners will not spend $300 on oxy/acetylene torches. They also would have a hard time learning how to braze. They also wouldn't know how to charge a unit using subcooling/superheat or know how to wire the controls. All of these things come in my mind of they can't do this or that. Well, people are a lot smarter than you or I give them credit for. The ones that butcher installs are the ones who do not seek advice from professionals like yourself. I hope you see where I'm coming from. Look back at all the projects you have done to your home. Maybe it was mowing your yard, replacing some siding, or changing a breaker. Well, all of these things you could have paid someone to do. You could have easily hired a landscaper, carpenter, or electrician. Would they have done a better job? I doubt they would have (not from what I see from you). The only person that truly cares about their house is the homeowner. I've never met a homeowner/diy'er that had the intentions of doing a bad job. Now, unintentional mistakes is a different matter and that is what I'm trying to alleviate by seeking advice from a person like yourself.

[Ace Sewer]

Fronty, you are right re quality of work; it is the same here. I have one tile guy I can recommend. I have a plumber I can recommend (I only do drain work), excavators I know some good ones but good luck getting them in a hurry. I have two septic pumpers I can recommend. I've started pumping small grease traps even though I don't really want to as I've had negative feedback from customers about some people I've sent them to in the past. I don't really have a standout electrician or any drywall person. I did one job which was back-to-back units, a main line. Snaked it from a toilet. Turns out while the rental people had called me for one unit, the property manager had called someone else for the other unit. I got there first and cleared it, packed up and left. An hour later the other folks show up, find no problem and go to work anyway. They snake from the other toilet, miss the back-back and blow through the toilet in the unit I was in and keep feeding cable. It whipped around and tore that bathroom to pieces. At least they fessed up and paid for it. Generally anyone good here is so busy you can't get them, at least not in any kind of hurry up mode. I'm sure its the same everywhere. Go to wall mart, buy a hammer, presto you're a carpenter. Buy a stupid hand crank toy snake while you're there and you can clean drains too.

[fronty]

Sorry for the delay. I finally got the unit installed, and it is putting out hot water.

[oldslowchevy]

did you use enough solder?? lol, how long do you have hot water before it can't keep up? and much does your meter spin when it's heating?

[drtyhands]

How do you like it.We're holding our breath:D

[DuckButter]

When I see a thread titled "I'm going to install an on demand heater!!!" under the "Ask the plumbing experts" forum, I avoid it like the plague.
For whatever reason I finally broke down and took a peak tonight...read through the whole lot.
There was mention of numerous concerns, like the homes panel output, GPM vs use, and incoming temperatures.
The most important factor was omitted.
Does this guy have a wife? Children?
Is his home within spreading distance to other homes in case of fire?
Ok, a fella that wants to replace his faucet, flapper or Johnny ring....fine.
But this ones rediculous.

[Dairylander]

Ok, a fella that wants to replace his faucet, flapper or Johnny ring....fine.
But this ones rediculous.
So, Duckbutter, after you read the whole thread, did you really think Fronty needed one more person criticizing/ridiculing him? :deadhorse:
I personally admire Fronty for his ambition to do this simple install himself. I also respect him for posting pics despite all the abuse.

[gear junkie]

When I see a thread titled "I'm going to install an on demand heater!!!" under the "Ask the plumbing experts" forum, I avoid it like the plague.
For whatever reason I finally broke down and took a peak tonight...read through the whole lot.
There was mention of numerous concerns, like the homes panel output, GPM vs use, and incoming temperatures.
The most important factor was omitted.
Does this guy have a wife? Children?
Is his home within spreading distance to other homes in case of fire?
Ok, a fella that wants to replace his faucet, flapper or Johnny ring....fine.
But this ones rediculous.
Duck, you missed the same part I did. Fronty isn't married(if he is, she's not at the house) and only takes showers at the house. No washing clothes or laundry. He's a traveling businessman.

[gear junkie]

Why'd you use gate valves and why on the hot side? How'd your first shower go with the heater?

[plumberscrack]

Relief valve?...expansion tank?....service switch?.....

[DuckButter]

So, Duckbutter, after you read the whole thread, did you really think Fronty needed one more person criticizing/ridiculing him? :deadhorse:
I personally admire Fronty for his ambition to do this simple install himself. I also respect him for posting pics despite all the abuse.

How admirable would he be if his house burns down in his sleep?

[fronty]

did you use enough solder?? lol, how long do you have hot water before it can't keep up? and much does your meter spin when it's heating?

What do you mean not keep up? It puts out 2.6 gallons of hot water a minute. It will keep heating the water until I turn it off. I think the average shower runs 2 gallons a minute. I can't run it with full hot tap on either. It is too hot.

[fronty]

How do you like it.We're holding our breath:D

It is working great. The only think I have to watch out for is using warm water. I never realized it before with the old tank. Sometimes when I'm using the kitchen sink I just pull the faucet lever straight up. This will kick on the unit. I have to keep the faucet to the cold water side.

[fronty]

did you use enough solder?? lol, how long do you have hot water before it can't keep up? and much does your meter spin when it's heating?

I knew I was going to be ridiculed for something. It looks a lot better than the old pipe work I removed. I know you have seen worse and that work was done by people that call themselves plumbers.

[fronty]

When I see a thread titled "I'm going to install an on demand heater!!!" under the "Ask the plumbing experts" forum, I avoid it like the plague.
For whatever reason I finally broke down and took a peak tonight...read through the whole lot.
There was mention of numerous concerns, like the homes panel output, GPM vs use, and incoming temperatures.
The most important factor was omitted.
Does this guy have a wife? Children?
Is his home within spreading distance to other homes in case of fire?
Ok, a fella that wants to replace his faucet, flapper or Johnny ring....fine.
But this ones rediculous.

Either you guys do not know that much about electricity or do not use it that often. I'm assuming you guys live up north and only install gas heaters. Electricity is not as dangerous as you think when installed properly.

[fronty]

So, Duckbutter, after you read the whole thread, did you really think Fronty needed one more person criticizing/ridiculing him? :deadhorse:
I personally admire Fronty for his ambition to do this simple install himself. I also respect him for posting pics despite all the abuse.

Thanks

[fronty]

Why'd you use gate valves and why on the hot side? How'd your first shower go with the heater?


I went per the manufacturer's install instructions. I had no complaints.

[plumberscrack]

Either you guys do not know that much about electricity or do not use it that often. I'm assuming you guys live up north and only install gas heaters. Electricity is not as dangerous as you think when installed properly.

Uh Oh now you've started something :eek:

[fronty]

Relief valve?...expansion tank?....service switch?.....

The instructions didn't call for a relief valve or expansion tank. A disconnect does not need to be installed because the main panel is in the same room.

[fronty]

How admirable would he be if his house burns down in his sleep?

Why do you think it will burn down? Obviously, I didn't just slap this thing together. If someone installs a heat pump with 10kw heat strips, is their house going to burn down too? Your comments have absolutely no basis. Show me some articles where these things cause fires. I have installed 500 plus air handlers, furnaces, and condensers and have never had a single problem (knock on wood).

[oldslowchevy]

I knew I was going to be ridiculed for something. It looks a lot better than the old pipe work I removed. I know you have seen worse and that work was done by people that call themselves plumbers.



well maybe you have no since of humor, or maybe you just did not notice the "lol" after my comment, but i will say this, those soder joints would not pass inspection, and neither would any art of your install.

poor soder joint no expantion tank(required in florida) no more then 24" of flex conduit, no service disconect, some how i dout you used the right size wire, i also see no pruesser relivef valve but i am unsure if it required on that type of heater, and then i not even going to metion your valves.

you came here and told us all what you were going to do and what you were going to use, each and ever one of told you not to do what you are doing, but you did it any way. then you have the gull to get pissy with us and tell us that we do not know any thing. then tring to be nice i looked at your pics, and i made a joke about your soder joints only, i never mentioned any thing else well this is what i feel at the moment......

phuck you and your home i hope it burns down and your home owners insurece won't cover because of the illeagle uninspected water heater.

now i really do no wish that on anyone, but my god man could you be any more of a self pretentous a__hole?:mad:

you know it is people like you who make the people here and around the world not want to help any one else, so please before you tell me how smart you are and how great you are and this that or the other, please allow me to tell you that you are the rudest, most self centered, egotistcal, brat, that i have ever tried to talk to, or help, and when i asked you about your job being inspected and you never responed we here should have stopped helpping you right there at that point, not that you need the help.......right? you just had to show us that you could do it.

i think i can i think i can i think i can :twofinger:

[fronty]

OK

For those of you who actually would like to see if this thing is a viable option, what tests do you want me to do? It is obvious that nobody here has installed an electric tankless before, but this may make believers out of you. I know it isn't going to be viable in all situations. However, there may be a 1 bedroom house or studio that doesn't have the room for a traditional hot water heater, or a person like me that just doesn't use that much hot water. I was thinking about taking temps at the bath tub. I estimated (by using a five gallon bucket and timer) that the gpm is around 2.6 to 3.0 wide open on hot. I was planning on taking ground water temp and then see what the temp rise is. Anything else???

[gear junkie]

Fronty, I know we didn't start off on the right foot so my comments probably don't matter but stop being so defensive. We can only go off past experiences and our plumbing knowledge and we're trying to help you. If your water heater passed inspection when you pulled the permit, that's what matters. Imagine if your inspector came out and said all those things that pcrack mentioned and failed your install. Wouldn't you feel bad about that? We're trying to give you help so that doesn't happen. The average DIY isn't that knowledgeable around electrictity so Duck's comments are justified since he doesn't know your credentials. In 8 years when you turn off the hot water and the gate valve won't open back up, you'll think of my comments.

[gear junkie]

phuck you and your home i hope it burns down and your home owners insurece won't cover because of the illeagle uninspected water heater.

now i really do no wish that on anyone, but my god man could you be any more of a self pretentous a__hole?:mad:

So OSC, how do you really feel about the situation:D?

[fronty]

well maybe you no since of humor, or maybe you just did not notice the "lol" after my comment, but i will say this, those soder joints would not pass inspection, and neither would any art of your install.

poor soder joint no expantion tank(required in florida) no more then 24" of flex conduit, no service disconect, some how i dout you used the right size wire, i also see no pruesser relivef valve but i am unsure if it required on that type of heater, and then i not even going to metion your valves.

you came here and told us all what you were going to do and what you were going to use, each and ever one of told you not to do what you are doing, but you did it any way. then you have the gull to get pissy with us and tell us that we do not know any thing. then tring to be nice i looked at your pics, and i made a joke about your soder joints only, i never mentioned any thing else well this is what i feel at the moment......

phuck you and your home i hope it burns down and your home owners insurece won't cover because of the illeagle uninspected water heater.

now i really do no wish that on anyone, but my god man could you be any more of a self pretentous a__hole?:mad:

you know it is people like you who make the people here and around the world not want to help any one else, so please before you tell me how start you are and how great you are and this that or the other, please allow me to tell you that you are the rudest, most self centered, egotistcal, brat, that i have ever tried to talk to, or help, and when i asked you about your job being inspected and you never responed we here should have stopped helpping you right there at that point, not that you need the help.......right? you just had to show us that you could do it.

i think i can i think i can i think i can :twofinger:


Lol... you must live in Dade county or something. It IS going to get inspected. I already pulled a permit. Read back through my other posts. I pulled a permit for my roof. I doubt you know about codes as well as you are stating. You would have realized that under Florida law a home owner can pull any permit for themselves. I looked through the code books and never saw anything that you are referring to. I used flex conduit in the past on existing homes without any problems. The code is six feet in my area. You have to be kidding me with the solder joint thing. I have seen thousands of new construction houses that had worse piping. You are REALLY showing you inexperience Mr. Internet tough guy.

Here are some more points that make me realize you do not know as much as you say. YOU DO NOT NEED A SERVICE DISCONNECT IF THE PHUCKING (YOUR WORDS) ELECTRICAL PANEL IS IN THE SAME ROOM. I also do not need a relief valve as per manufacturer specs. I used 6 gauge wire and type L copper. What now??? Is he going to fail the inspection because there is a piece of dirt on the unit. I'm not trying to be pretentious (this is how you spell that word by the way) or arrogant, but when people ridicule a me without any basis, I do get a little offended. Post some of your work (serious). I want to see it.

[fronty]

Fronty, I know we didn't start off on the right foot so my comments probably don't matter but stop being so defensive. We can only go off past experiences and our plumbing knowledge and we're trying to help you. If your water heater passed inspection when you pulled the permit, that's what matters. Imagine if your inspector came out and said all those things that pcrack mentioned and failed your install. Wouldn't you feel bad about that? We're trying to give you help so that doesn't happen. The average DIY isn't that knowledgeable around electrictity so Duck's comments are justified since he doesn't know your credentials. In 8 years when you turn off the hot water and the gate valve won't open back up, you'll think of my comments.

I know... I hold nothing against anybody. I apologize for my defensiveness. It just can't stand to be attacked without basis. Comments like you house is going to burn down make me a little angry. Tell me why. If I would have said I used 14/2 wire with an over sized breaker, then those comments would be warranted. I hope you see where I'm coming from. Thanks for the help. I guess I should have went with the gate valves. The old gate valve was actually leaking, but it was over 26 years old. I don't mean to come off this way, but I hope you can put yourself in my shoes. If someone said all of these things to you with no basis, then I think you would get a little defensive.

[gear junkie]

I guess I should have went with the gate valves. The old gate valve was actually leaking, but it was over 26 years old.
I'm saying you should've went with ball valves, gate valves for residential work is a bad thing.

[fronty]

I apologize to everyone if I'm coming off the wrong way. I actually thought about not posting here anymore, but I wanted to give an unbiased representation of this equipment.

[fronty]

I'm saying you should've went with ball valves, gate valves for residential work is a bad thing.

Sorry I meant I shouldn't have went with gate valves. If they will fail the inspection like old internet tough guy chevy says, I will swap then out with ball valves. Thank you for letting me know. I'll call the inspector on Monday (if I can get a hold of him) and ask him if that is code. I've never heard of that before, but I am also not a plumber.

[fronty]

Here is the comment that spurred on OldCryBabyChevy response:

I knew I was going to be ridiculed for something. It looks a lot better than the old pipe work I removed. I know you have seen worse and that work was done by people that call themselves plumbers.


I think your attacks were unwarranted. Hoping that someone house burns down and the die shows your true maturity level. Grow up. Wishing harm on others will only bring harm to your own personal life. I hope some of you other members are disgusted by Chevy's antics as well, even if you agree or don't agree with me installing this thing.

[drtyhands]

I agree your solder joints look a lot nicer than those I have seen others leave behind themselves on jobsites.You did take the time to do work to the best possible standards of your abilities.Pretty good for someone who does not do it everyday.

I appreciate the photo's and your openness.

What would happen if the heater malfunctions and does not shut off.The pressure IS going to blow out somewhere.I would protect myself by putting a T&P valve in,despite the manufature or inspector not having the brains to catch it.

We have seen the gate valves lifespan not be that long.That's why we use ball valves.

So Bosch does not suggest you rinsing out the unit periodically.

I admire your hanging in there and sticking it out.It may seem like we are singleing you out and over ridiculing your attempt.It just that I take responsibility for what could be percieved by a visitor as what can be accomplished.I have all the work I need,so I could care less if you do it yourself.My problem is when I see something incorrect and it goes as proper system.

I would have a T&P,ball vaves and some way of rinsing the unit.

Thank-you for sharing your experience with us Fonty.It is a good thing.

Adam:)

[oldslowchevy]

look here this will be my very last post to you...

read my past post and my past threads, i wold not have the respect that i have have here if i was the "internet tough guy" but man you are a piece of work let me tell you, and i know why you roof was inspected, because it was outside!!!!! you could not hide the fact you were doing it!!!! and i live on the gulf side, between ft meyers and sarasota, i really hope you take up the offer of reading my posts.

[drtyhands]

Here is the comment that spurred on OldCryBabyChevy response:




I think your attacks were unwarranted. Hoping that someone house burns down and the die shows your true maturity level. Grow up. Wishing harm on others will only bring harm to your own personal life. I hope some of you other members are disgusted by Chevy's antics as well, even if you agree or don't agree with me installing this thing.
I can see how one could missinterperate Ducks point.I do not see it being a frontal attack.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I know. The electrical is already run. I just need to do the water connections today.

fronty, that's 2 sets of 40 amp double pole breakers. meaning 80 amps at 240 volts.

the minimum panel is a 150 amp service.

i hope you did check the specs. throughly.

rick.

I used 6 gauge wire and type L copper..


i'm not an electrician, but i know that 6 gauge wire is not rated for 80 amps. so unless you ran 4- #6 hot wires and a ground it's undersized. will all of that fit in a 3/4''? flex conduit?

the breakers recommended were 40 amp. #8 will work for 40 amps. the panel should be at least 150 amp. are these the correct numbers?

now for the plumbing. although gate valves are legal, 99% of plumbers would not use them, especially cheap imports. the valves will fail, typically once you shut them and go to re-open them.

i doubt that your code allows for a heater installed without a combination temperature, pressure relief valve.
we did discuss a combination shut off/ bypass valve for servicing. without this assy. it will be alot of work to flush out the heater on an annual basis, or it will not get done and the heater will fail prematurely.

the heater supplies your current needs, lifestyle. what happens when you sell or you get house guest? do laundry when your taking a shower?

just my couple of concerns since my first post.

rick.

[fronty]

look here this will be my very last post to you...

read my past post and my past threads, i wold not have the respect that i have have here if i was the "internet tough guy" but man you are a piece of work let me tell you, and i know why you roof was inspected, because it was outside!!!!! you could not hide the fact you were doing it!!!! and i live on the gulf side, between ft meyers and sarasota, i really hope you take up the offer of reading my posts.

No thanks

I lost all respect for you with your death threats and childish comments. Current actions speak louder than anything in the past. By the way, that wasn't why I pulled a permit. My roof was inspected because my county is extremely strict with pulled permits when a house is sold. The inspectors are a lot harder on you if you pull a permit because they force you to.

[fronty]

I agree your solder joints look a lot nicer than those I have seen others leave behind themselves on jobsites.You did take the time to do work to the best possible standards of your abilities.Pretty good for someone who does not do it everyday.

I appreciate the photo's and your openness.

What would happen if the heater malfunctions and does not shut off.The pressure IS going to blow out somewhere.I would protect myself by putting a T&P valve in,despite the manufature or inspector not having the brains to catch it.

We have seen the gate valves lifespan not be that long.That's why we use ball valves.

So Bosch does not suggest you rinsing out the unit periodically.

I admire your hanging in there and sticking it out.It may seem like we are singleing you out and over ridiculing your attempt.It just that I take responsibility for what could be percieved by a visitor as what can be accomplished.I have all the work I need,so I could care less if you do it yourself.My problem is when I see something incorrect and it goes as proper system.

I would have a T&P,ball vaves and some way of rinsing the unit.

Thank-you for sharing your experience with us Fonty.It is a good thing.

Adam:)

Thanks for the tips. I wish I would have received the tips about the valves in advance. I should have asked. I actually didn't ask as many questions as I would have liked because of the bad reception I received in the beginning. I'm not sure why no relief valve is required. I'm guessing that it has to do with the limit safety switches installed. I know limits aren't fail safes, but that is what I am thinking. I will inquire further about it. As far as service ports, I am just going to buy a couple more unions and fabricate a fitting. I will then just undue the unions and screw on my service union on it and flush the system.

[fronty]

I can see how one could missinterperate Ducks point.I do not see it being a frontal attack.

I was referring to Oldchevy's attacks.

[oldslowchevy]

ok THIS is my last post in this thread....


i never once threatened you or your life, so please coutinue your lies,

[drtyhands]

I was referring to Oldchevy's attacks.
OOOPS.HE-HEEE:o

[fronty]

i'm not an electrician, but i know that 6 gauge wire is not rated for 80 amps. so unless you ran 4- #6 hot wires and a ground it's undersized. will all of that fit in a 3/4''? flex conduit?

the breakers recommended were 40 amp. #8 will work for 40 amps. the panel should be at least 150 amp. are these the correct numbers?

now for the plumbing. although gate valves are legal, 99% of plumbers would not use them, especially cheap imports. the valves will fail, typically once you shut them and go to re-open them.

i doubt that your code allows for a heater installed without a combination temperature, pressure relief valve.
we did discuss a combination shut off/ bypass valve for servicing. without this assy. it will be alot of work to flush out the heater on an annual basis, or it will not get done and the heater will fail prematurely.

the heater supplies your current needs, lifestyle. what happens when you sell or you get house guest? do laundry when your taking a shower?

just my couple of concerns since my first post.

rick.


That is correct. I ran 4-6 Gauge wires. The flex conduit is 1". I'm still looking into the pressure relief valve. I know the manufacturer doesn't require it.

[fronty]

ok THIS is my last post in this thread....


i never once threatened you or your life, so please coutinue your lies,

Well, a house fire causes deaths, so indirectly, you did wish harm or death upon me.

[oldslowchevy]

i hope you drive to work.

while driving, an auto accident could happen, and then if it did happen you could be injuried, and that could lead to death, i mean come on man COULD you strech what i said any farther.

it is poeple like you that make soda pop companys have warning labels on how to open a soda pop. that make people like me go insane

[gear junkie]

That is correct. I ran 4-6 Gauge wires. The flex conduit is 1". I'm still looking into the pressure relief valve. I know the manufacturer doesn't require it.
Just because the manufactor's make something doesn't mean it's code. Example: Oatey makes a PVC to ABS glue. Not code in my area. Charolette pipe makes yoke style dwv fittings-definently not code. I hope you're taking notes. Lots of good knowledge being passed around here that aren't in books.

[plumberscrack]

The instructions didn't call for a relief valve or expansion tank. A disconnect does not need to be installed because the main panel is in the same room.


Maybe you don't really need an expansion tank or even a disconnect switch for that matter. But it would surprise me that you wouldn't need a relief valve.

Did the instructions specifically address the relief valve and said it wasn't prescribed or was it just omitted from the instructions all together?

Gate valve versus ball valve is a moot point. Both are full port and that's what's enforced. I am required to use gates in a few places but for the most part it's always a ball valve. When I do use a gate, it's a Watts valve or I don't even bother.

Perhaps the 3 exclamation points in the thread title set the wrong tone here

[ToUtahNow]

Old slow you need to slow your roll and peace out. :icon_bike:

The man's work looks better than a lot of what we see out there every day. He came here looking for answers and has received a lot of abuse for his trouble (along with some sound advise). For the record the requirements for a T&P is for storage type water heating and does not apply to tankless.

Mark

[oldslowchevy]

lol mark , i did nomante this thread for thread of the year becase of all the advice givin here, and as for me, i am going to step to the side for awhile. i feel, and know i was wrong with some of the things i have said, but i never threatend this guy either.

[drtyhands]

Thanks Mark.

I was told Rinnia requires them on the hot outlet.I have been missled before.

[ToUtahNow]

Thanks Mark.

I was told Rinnia requires them on the hot outlet.I have been missled before.

If the manufacturer requires a T&P it makes it part of it's listing and it is then required. However, the IPC (Florida) specifically says "storage" water heating requires it where the UPC says water heating installations require both temperature and pressure protection.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Why do you think it will burn down? Obviously, I didn't just slap this thing together. If someone installs a heat pump with 10kw heat strips, is their house going to burn down too? Your comments have absolutely no basis. Show me some articles where these things cause fires. I have installed 500 plus air handlers, furnaces, and condensers and have never had a single problem (knock on wood).

OK, I apparently missed the part where you're a licensed professional HVAC installer (who, of course, knows to sub out licensed work)...someone else just said you travelled for business alot.
If you need to see an article stating incorrect wiring/connections can cause fires...I think you should read the papers a wee bit more.
I'll simply toss this right back to you with a question regarding the bold portions of what you stated above...

Why do you think you're required to have a licensed electrician and a licensed plumber to install those?

The list of things that could go wrong is lengthy, but apparently all ya gotta do is go on line and ask total strangers how to and voila...you're a plumber/electrician.
Here's a thought...if something happens and causes a fire..the fire inspector will ask who installed it.
Your insurance co will speak with him in return.
I cannot begin to express the importance of NOT underestimating home safety...nor the constant exposure I come into with outrageously dangerous installations.
Be insulted all you want, also be glad the neighbors haven't installed their own boiler and in the process loosened the gas main...you hope.
When Ben tossed out the word "ignorant" he was attempting to impress the importance of this...instead it became a rant on politically incorrect, hurtfull language.
Wah.
Sorry he hurt your feelings, but his priority was attaining your attention to a very important matter.
You'll continually rationalize your decision endlessly, no doubt...pardon my lack of interest in defending right from wrong with you from this point on, it's all been said on this thread already and each time the reasons given are minimized.

[drtyhands]

If the manufacturer requires a T&P it makes it part of it's listing and it is then required. However, the IPC (Florida) specifically says "storage" water heating requires it where the UPC says water heating installations require both temperature and pressure protection.

Mark
Totally agree Mark,
I was just drawing attention to the fact that one manufacture may require one.And Bosch may not.I tried to look up some possible schematics from Rinnia,could not find any.Then again,computer skills are not my strongest attributes:D

[plumberscrack]

This is a perfect example of why I should spend more time reading the IPC book

Apparently, I was remembering the good old days of BOCA....ahh.....good times :)

The IPC does require a temperature limiting device on the piping for tankless heaters :confused:

Or am I wrong on this one too, Mark? :p

Rinnai has this to say:
ANSI code calls for the addition of an approved pressure relief valve to all water heating systems

[fronty]

i hope you drive to work.

while driving, an auto accident could happen, and then if it did happen you could be injuried, and that could lead to death, i mean come on man COULD you strech what i said any farther.

it is poeple like you that make soda pop companys have warning labels on how to open a soda pop. that make people like me go insane

That made absolutely no sense. A statement that would have been similar to yours would have been:

I hope you get into a head on collision driving to work.

Do you see the difference?

[fronty]

Just because the manufactor's make something doesn't mean it's code. Example: Oatey makes a PVC to ABS glue. Not code in my area. Charolette pipe makes yoke style dwv fittings-definently not code. I hope you're taking notes. Lots of good knowledge being passed around here that aren't in books.


I definitely am. I will ask the inspector on Monday if they are working. I might just add one just to be on the safe side.

[fronty]

Maybe you don't really need an expansion tank or even a disconnect switch for that matter. But it would surprise me that you wouldn't need a relief valve.

Did the instructions specifically address the relief valve and said it wasn't prescribed or was it just omitted from the instructions all together?

Gate valve versus ball valve is a moot point. Both are full port and that's what's enforced. I am required to use gates in a few places but for the most part it's always a ball valve. When I do use a gate, it's a Watts valve or I don't even bother.

Perhaps the 3 exclamation points in the thread title set the wrong tone here

No, it actually says that in the manual. It is also marketed that way. One of the features/benefits it says is it doesn't need one. Thanks for the input on the valves.

[fronty]

[B]Why do you think you're required to have a licensed electrician and a licensed plumber to install those?





I didn't say it was required. That is why I did it myself.

[Ruudacguy]

Where I'm from a homeowner can do whatever the fck they want to, in their own house. Its not like this guy is out scabbing in these heaters for customers without a license. This is clearly his own house. All the crap you guys are giving fronty about working in his own house is uncalled for and really changing my opinion of some of you.

[fronty]

Where I'm from a homeowner can do whatever the fck they want to, in their own house. Its not like this guy is out scabbing in these heaters for customers without a license. This is clearly his own house. All the crap you guys are giving fronty about working in his own house is uncalled for and really changing my opinion of some of you.

Thanks I appreciate that. I thought it just might be different in other states. In my state, I can build my own house if I want to. I have actually seen people do it. They, of course, contract out anything they can not handle. This usually consists of mechanical equipment (that is how I run into them). They actually do better work and use better material than some of the builders out there. I don't know why I'm getting so much crap about this. If I get this inspected and it passes, why wouldn't my insurance company cover it?

[gear junkie]

True story; right after Hurricane Katrina I worked for Gulfport PW water dept fixing broken mains all over the city. The PW foreman lost a couple shingles off his house and that's all. 5 days after the hurricane his house burned to the ground because his neighbor had miswired his house generator. The fire had spread because of the winds. Imagine that, survive Katrina with hardley a scratch and your house burns to the ground because of your idiot neighbor.

If I give someone flak because they might not fully understand what they're about to undertake and I hurt their feelings but keep them safer in the process doing that, then it was worth it. Sometimes we need to check our pride(that's what this is, someone feelings got hurt) and our abilities to make sure we maintain a safe home by asking the right questions and listening to critism and FOLLOWING the advice given. Not trying to go on the offense and justify why your way will work.

This is going to happen, just wait; we're going to give some innocent advice to some DIY. It could be draincleaning, fixing a leak, whatever. He/she is going to get hurt or have property damage and try to sue the bejezus out of us because they followed our advice but didn't have the experience to make it work, so they'll blame us. You heard it here first, folks!!

[fronty]

Oldchevy,


Do you work on just commercial? That is what I'm gathering from your responses here.

-The 2 feet flex in an existing residential house. Do your residential plumbers have EMT on the truck? You can't possibly sub out the electrical on water heater change outs. Do you?
-Thinking this will fail inspection because of a little too much solder
-Thinking this will fail inspection because of gate valves
-I'm not sure about relief valve
-Not knowing that a homeowner can pull their own permits.
-etc..

Commercial and residential codes are different.

[fronty]

True story; right after Hurricane Katrina I worked for Gulfport PW water dept fixing broken mains all over the city. The PW foreman lost a couple shingles off his house and that's all. 5 days after the hurricane his house burned to the ground because his neighbor had miswired his house generator. The fire had spread because of the winds. Imagine that, survive Katrina with hardley a scratch and your house burns to the ground because of your idiot neighbor.

If I give someone flak because they might not fully understand what they're about to undertake and I hurt their feelings but keep them safer in the process doing that, then it was worth it. Sometimes we need to check our pride(that's what this is, someone feelings got hurt) and our abilities to make sure we maintain a safe home by asking the right questions and listening to critism and FOLLOWING the advice given. Not trying to go on the offense and justify why your way will work.

This is going to happen, just wait; we're going to give some innocent advice to some DIY. It could be draincleaning, fixing a leak, whatever. He/she is going to get hurt or have property damage and try to sue the bejezus out of us because they followed our advice. You heard it here first, folks!!

That isn't it at all. It is the way it is said/brought up. Some of you just said things like it will burn your house down. Where is the basis? Now, if you would have said, be careful to use correct gauge wires and breakers. Things like that. Nobody would get offended. Read back through some of the comments.

[ToUtahNow]

This is a perfect example of why I should spend more time reading the IPC book

Apparently, I was remembering the good old days of BOCA....ahh.....good times :)

The IPC does require a temperature limiting device on the piping for tankless heaters :confused:

Or am I wrong on this one too, Mark? :p

Rinnai has this to say:

ANSI code calls for the addition of an approved pressure relief valve to all water heating systems


Yes the IPC requires temperatures controls which will not allow the temperature to get above the max allowed temperature be on all water heaters. To give you an idea of how different the Codes are the IPC section on water heaters is two (2) pages long as opposed to the UPC water heater section which is fifty-three (53) pages long.

Mark

[DUNBAR]

Where I'm from a homeowner can do whatever the fck they want to, in their own house. Its not like this guy is out scabbing in these heaters for customers without a license. This is clearly his own house. All the crap you guys are giving fronty about working in his own house is uncalled for and really changing my opinion of some of you.



SO,

If it works in your back yard, it works in mine? Explain that logic.


And how do we know this isn't "just one job" ?? It is the interent ya know. People can type away without a care in the world, curtail it to their advantage and move on with it like it's no big thing.

This "crap" you so seem to dismiss is where you're completely wrong.


There is a reason why inspections exist, there is a reason why there are licensed tradesmen. If every tom dick and harry took it upon themselves to take care of their properties and all the associated problems, the world would be a messed up place.

There's million of people that drive a car, sit on a toilet every day and never know what makes them work; they just flip a lever or turn a key and freak out when either one fails.

You're nonchalant statement of giving someone flack for commenting on messing with their electrical service, water lines or just the mechanical system in general by simply going "on a hunch" that the thread starter states he's intelligent.....

is a whimsical statement at best since the thread starter wouldn't be here if he wasn't lacking knowledge.

Seeing two shutoff valves for the incoming and outgoing of a device used for the heating of water, creating thermal expansion with a closed system instantly with both of those valves shut without a T&P relief valve PROVES ignorance on behalf of the thread starter.


He doesn't understand codes
He doesn't understand that "worse case scenarios" are how codes originated in the plumbing field.

He's been questioned on the tactics involving the electrical feed and IF you're that unsure of yourself where you're backstepping.....well....

don't lose your day job.


It DOES NOT matter what the instructions state on ANY product. It does not matter if what you removed from your plumbing system looks just like the way you're putting it back in. The LOCAL AUTHORITY, not IPC UPC NPC has any weight to the statement or code restriction. It's the local authority to puts the tag on the workmanship as to whether it's deemed acceptable for permitted use.


This is just another flambouyant sp? DIY warrior that wanted some advice to nudge them along to get the lacking knowledge he so desired. He felt compelled to be quick witted and defensive on the first signs of criticism, knowing the think tanks/educated professionals have seen this scenario play out a million times with people trying to shy away from plumber's charges because

"I've soldered before"
"I used to do this"
"I'm smarter than you"

^^^^

The above for the most part can have their hay day, all fine by me. As noted on this thread, I've not given one crucial bit of advice to this thread starter because the task is well beyond his mental capacity, whether the unit is operating or not.

Incoming and outgoing valves on a device that creates thermal expansion, has no protective device in the event of failure or those valves get accidentally closed while in service or by another set of hands PROVES he doesn't know what the first thing is when it comes to correct plumbing.

Some call it ignorance, I call it stubbornness. Either one puts him in the same boat with a hole in it.

I truly believe the only way he got through this install was the comments/remarks whether snide or not that helped him along the way to complete the task. I don't care what he has to say to my comments in return; it's just going to be defensive, rhetorical to some demeaning statement that "I'm smarter than you and my heater is working" kind of retaliatory remarks.

Good for you, hope you have endless hot water......but it was NOT a professional install by any stretch of the imagination. If it passes inspection, I'm sure glad I don't have a master plumber's license in florida because it wouldn't carry any weight knowing that install is faulty.


I can go on and on and on with this but I got pizza to eat right now.

Ruudacguy,

Don't give yourself that much credit that people care what your opinion is of anyone. I don't give a rat's *** about you or the next one who bangs keys in any forum whether it's in my favor or not.

You might want to take the good advice that your statements fall out of line of why and how plumbers/electricians and every other tradesman has a duty and responsibility to protect the public by not always granting knowledge, information, cheerleading to tell them that they can put their hands on product that can indirectly cause due harm to them or others.....

just because they can do it. I can write a book but that doesn't mean it will be touted as one, whether people will read it or not.

Who wants to bet a box of twinkies that the thread starter will say, "I'm the only one who lives here so there's absolutely no chance that both valves would be turned off at the same time." Riiiiiiiiiiight.

But then you die, become disabled, lose your house.....

The next unsuspecting homeowner walks into the property

Home inspectors missed this "bad" situation

Someone doesn't have hot water and starts shutting/opening valves

and

wah-lah.....


There you have it, a potential danger afforded by the last uneducated hands on a product that is notoriously installed by a licensed professional.....

and for a reason.

[DuckButter]

Where I'm from a homeowner can do whatever the fck they want to, in their own house. Its not like this guy is out scabbing in these heaters for customers without a license. This is clearly his own house. All the crap you guys are giving fronty about working in his own house is uncalled for and really changing my opinion of some of you.

I'm not taking a thing personal, and I don't think that was directed at me.
Every year in the news here there are stories of CO poisonings, electrical fires & structure collapses.....people die.
I never once said I "hoped" his home burnt down, that was someone elses interpretation.
I never once asserted I harbored contempt for him, though I did state that STRONG emphasis ought be used to discourage installing it...even if insulting.
What I'm stating is that it's incredibly easy to estimate electrical, plumbing or structural work as simple.
I come across it almost constantly..I have absolutely no doubt you do as well.
I spent half my week replacing a gas main that had leaks all over it in concealed locations.
The new owner had purchased a home that the previous owner had made "upgrades" to.
The gas pipe had bushings in several places..with no hangers or supports and when a furnace had been added, the mechanical contractor had apparently loosened some of the connections with a bare minimum of movement because someone made the assumption the "Megaloc" dope meant not having to tighten the threads as much.
I pulled permits and the first thing the inspector asked was "Who installed this furnace?".
Turns out the HVAC guy cut a corner or two and did his own gas/exhaust...no CO detectors.
The inspector just looked at the new owner as he was panicking and told him he wouldn't break his b-lls, but he had half a mind to make a call to the contractor.
This guy is connecting an 80 amp device to a 200 amp service (150?) and we're here to encourage him?
It's a good thing to be able to do your own work, but there's a line.
I think of a family here that died when a boiler was installed with the exhaust outlet too low to grade, it snowed and the family died in their sleep from CO poisoning. I'm guessing the guy that put it in figured permits and licensing were just a formality for the state to make money.
Ask any firefighter his thoughts on homeowner DIY on electrical.
At what point is it a good idea to get a pro?
Do we encourage someone to replace their entire electrical service on their own?
Do we assume we can cover every little detail that could go wrong as we walk someone through something like this online?
I've walked customers through simple things like a toilet flapper..all to have to go there anyway because they didn't understand the terminology.
The absence of a relief valve on this tankless makes this point clear.
That water still gets hot, still expands and I have yet to see any MFG manual state there's no need for one.
I have a ten year old that convinces himself that I hate him when I ask him to clean his room, do his homework, or go to bed..but in the long run he understands he needs to learn to do these things.
The anger, excuses and defensiveness I observed on this thread over being told what a bad idea this is reminds me of him.
This is what I like about DOG (PlumbDog), he doesn't care whether you like him or not, he cares about the integrity of his message.
Regardless of potential insult or hurt feelings, right is right...wrong is wrong.

[fronty]

SO,

If it works in your back yard, it works in mine? Explain that logic.


And how do we know this isn't "just one job" ?? It is the interent ya know. People can type away without a care in the world, curtail it to their advantage and move on with it like it's no big thing.

This "crap" you so seem to dismiss is where you're completely wrong.


There is a reason why inspections exist, there is a reason why there are licensed tradesmen. If every tom dick and harry took it upon themselves to take care of their properties and all the associated problems, the world would be a messed up place.

There's million of people that drive a car, sit on a toilet every day and never know what makes them work; they just flip a lever or turn a key and freak out when either one fails.

You're nonchalant statement of giving someone flack for commenting on messing with their electrical service, water lines or just the mechanical system in general by simply going "on a hunch" that the thread starter states he's intelligent.....

is a whimsical statement at best since the thread starter wouldn't be here if he wasn't lacking knowledge.

What are you talking about? Did you even read the thread? The unit IS getting inspected. Your logic is the one that is lacking. Nobody even said anything about inspections not being necessary. Your making assumptions based on nothing. While ruudacguy is making a comment based on the thread. Go read it.

[fronty]

Seeing two shutoff valves for the incoming and outgoing of a device used for the heating of water, creating thermal expansion with a closed system instantly with both of those valves shut without a T&P relief valve PROVES ignorance on behalf of the thread starter.



That is per manufacturer specs. Are you even a plumber? This thing will not run if water isn't flowing threw it. That is why they put a water flow transducer in it. You are really showing your ignorance. A fixture is a damn shutoff valve as well. If I close the cold inlet and the fixture and I going to explode? Lol... I hope you aren't a plumber. I think I may have gone over your head. Let's say I turn on the bath tub fixture. I then slowly close the outlet gate valve. What will happen? The gpm will decrease and the unit will go into 1st stage heating. If I turn it a little more, it will shut off the unit because the unit isn't sensing water going through it. Does the unit know whether the fixture or the gate valve outlet closed? No, it does not. No offense, but your the reason I do things myself instead of hiring it out. (Disregard the last statement if you are not a plumber)

[DuckButter]

........ Are you even a plumber? ............................ You are really showing your ignorance.
.... Lol... I hope you aren't a plumber. I think I may have gone over your head. ........
No offense, but your the reason I do things myself instead of hiring it out. (Disregard the last statement if you are not a plumber)

Yes, we need to stop insulting him boys.

The heater fails...a sensor is stuck and it keeps the element on.
You close both valves to get ready to service it.
Your health insurance is good...right?
Life insiurance?

[fronty]

He doesn't understand codes
He doesn't understand that "worse case scenarios" are how codes originated in the plumbing field.

He's been questioned on the tactics involving the electrical feed and IF you're that unsure of yourself where you're backstepping.....well....



I have no idea what you are talking about.



It DOES NOT matter what the instructions state on ANY product. It does not matter if what you removed from your plumbing system looks just like the way you're putting it back in. The LOCAL AUTHORITY, not IPC UPC NPC has any weight to the statement or code restriction. It's the local authority to puts the tag on the workmanship as to whether it's deemed acceptable for permitted use.




Another dumb statement. I would have failed my roof inspection if I didn't follow manufacturer install instructions. The inspector actually wouldn't do the inspection until I gave him a bundle wrapper. I had to go dig one out of the dumpster. How is that for local authority? I have never seen an inspector say don't install it per manufacturer specs. They do not want to take on the liability of voiding a persons warranty. Again, I don't think you work in the trades or your a green horn. Sorry... Just my observation.

[fronty]

The above for the most part can have their hay day, all fine by me. As noted on this thread, I've not given one crucial bit of advice to this thread starter because the task is well beyond his mental capacity, whether the unit is operating or not.



What advice did you give? Above my mental capacity. I graduated with honors from a top tier college. How far did you go in school? Are you saying I couldn't learn another trade because I'm not smart enough. A proper statement would have been he lacks plumbing knowledge. It is spelled like this: Flamboyant


<