UPC Fixture Count

[porschedude]

Hello all,

I am designing and building a workshop and new to drawing plans for houses. I design and draft for the aerospace industry. My problem is that I am looking for a chart to count the fixtures in my existing house. The plan check wants the information if I have a 3" waste line. I have a 3" waste line so I need to document the count on the drawings.

I have the following existing in the house:

1 Kichen Sink
1 Utility Sink (Garage)
1 Washing Machine Drain
1 Softwater Discharge Drain

3 bathrooms:
Bathroom 1 = 1 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower
Bathroom 2 = 1 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower/tub
Bathroom 3 = 2 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower/tub

I plan to add:
1 Utility Sink
Restroom:
1 toilet
1 sink

What do I have?

Thanks in advance, Keith

[ToUtahNow]

Hello all,

I am designing and building a workshop and new to drawing plans for houses. I design and draft for the aerospace industry. My problem is that I am looking for a chart to count the fixtures in my existing house. The plan check wants the information if I have a 3" waste line. I have a 3" waste line so I need to document the count on the drawings.

I have the following existing in the house:

1 Kichen Sink
1 Utility Sink (Garage)
1 Washing Machine Drain
1 Softwater Discharge Drain

3 bathrooms:
Bathroom 1 = 1 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower
Bathroom 2 = 1 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower/tub
Bathroom 3 = 2 sink, 1 toilet, 1 shower/tub

I plan to add:
1 Utility Sink
Restroom:
1 toilet
1 sink

What do I have?

Thanks in advance, Keith

I can give you a fixture count but your 3" line is limited to a maximum of 3 water closets regardless of the fixture count.

Mark

[porschedude]

I can give you a fixture count but your 3" line is limited to a maximum of 3 water closets regardless of the fixture count.

Mark

Mark,

Where is that called out? UPC or is that a local code?

Thanks, Keith

[drtyhands]

It's a basic UPC.:)

[DUNBAR]

Ever since I've been an "internet" plumber since 2002, understanding that what works in my back yard doesn't hold the same for "your" back yard.

The discussion of IPC, UPC, NPC and anything else I've missed, goes right over my head and I'll tell you why:


There are a million ways to interpret those sections, every state either makes modifications to them or "relaxes" the code to whichever way it suits them, no matter if the majority agrees with it or not.

Local authority in the city/town/municipality this thread starter is in will have the bottom line say-so as to what is implied as code approved to be in use as far as measurement of DFU load or fixture unit count. It's nice to fall back on these larger based systems of reference but it can be perplexing when someone follows that logic, puts a plumbing system in and finds out at the inspection that even though it says right there in print, the local authority has amendments and revisions that can alter that plumbing system.

Some of it can be light and not majorly affecting the final outcome of the system design....some can if it implies to what product you're allowed to install in said structure.


In KY the water closet is 6, bathtub/lavatory is 1.5 each so 9 is the total DFU load for a bath group. New construction is slowly leaving me in my age since I concentrate on the service side of plumbing.

So I guess my question is without starting a thread to ask the obvious, is the majority of the members here who are plumbers, is your particular plumbing code basically a carbon copy of the implied code structures that is commonly spoke here? If that is true, then it explains the common ring of the bell in regards to these.

KY is up with NY with having some of the most strictest codes in the United States and I indirectly take all other governing bodies as inferior, not superior in how and what gets enforced.

It's a good thing to me to know code in this way at its most involved way.....because knowing it in any less fashion would be considered something I need to learn and educate myself on.

Plumbing is something you never stop learning from, the internet and forums have taught me many practices across the globe that helps me with my everyday work life.

[porschedude]

Well that really puts a damper on things if it is true in my area.

They have not said that I can't have the restroom, they just want the count.

Can someone give me the numbers?

Also, I forgot the laundry discharge drain.

Thanks, Keith

[drtyhands]

Well that stinks,
I wish there was something I can say.Table 7-5 in the sanitary drainage section has a footnote (4) on three inch pipe that only allows 3 water closets on a horizontal line and 4 water closets on a vertical line.

[westcoastplumber]

Well that really puts a damper on things if it is true in my area.

They have not said that I can't have the restroom, they just want the count.

Can someone give me the numbers?

Also, I forgot the laundry discharge drain.

Thanks, Keith


That is you keith, your UPC. It's in the footnotes, maybe thats why they want a fixture count. I came up with 32.5, I sized the discharge at .5 FU and the utility sinks as laundry utility sinks at 2 each, the rest is in the UPC. The laundry is sized at 3 FU

[ToUtahNow]

I will let you do the math but here is some info. California uses the UPC so this would include your area.

Kitchen Sink 2.0
Utility Sink 2.0
Washing Machine Drain 3.0
Softwater Discharge Drain 0.0
Toilet (1.6 GPF) 3.0
Lavatory 1.0
Tub & Shower 2.0
Shower 2.0

Max 3” Horizontal = 35 DFU (except maximum of 3 water closets)
Max 3” Vertical = 48 DFU

Max 4” Horizontal = 216 DFU
Max 4” Vertical = 256 DFU

[porschedude]

I will let you do the math but here is some info. California uses the UPC so this would include your area.

Kitchen Sink 2.0
Utility Sink 2.0
Washing Machine Drain 3.0
Softwater Discharge Drain 0.0
Toilet (1.6 GPF) 3.0
Lavatory 1.0
Tub & Shower 2.0
Shower 2.0

Max 3” Horizontal = 35 DFU (except maximum of 3 water closets)
Max 3” Vertical = 48 DFU

Max 4” Horizontal = 216 DFU
Max 4” Vertical = 256 DFU


ToUtahNow,

Thanks for the numbers.

I know these numbers are making sure that the toilet and drains operate properly, but the toilet that would be using in the shop at the exact moment replaces the one that I'm not using and the difference is the walk.

The question from the building department is what is the fixture count or if it is 4" they don't care. How can I tell if it is 4" or not. Do I hire a plumber with a camera hand have him inspect the line for size, or can that be done?

[westcoastplumber]

ToUtahNow,

Thanks for the numbers.

I know these numbers are making sure that the toilet and drains operate properly, but the toilet that would be using in the shop at the exact moment replaces the one that I'm not using and the difference is the walk.

The question from the building department is what is the fixture count or if it is 4" they don't care. How can I tell if it is 4" or not. Do I hire a plumber with a camera hand have him inspect the line for size, or can that be done?

Yes, a good plumber can find out the size of the drain with a camera.

you can also look at clean outs, do you have a 4" c/o around? or maybe a 3" that transitions to a 4" at the bottom. Your best bet will be a good plumber with a camera.

[ToUtahNow]

By the way Santa Maria is one of my favorite areas to ride motorcycles. My Brother-in-Law lives up there and a close friend is one of the brothers who owns Main Street Produce so I have been able to go riding in some really out of the way places up there.

If you could give us a better idea of what you are trying to do we might be able to figure something out with you. Chances are your house drain is only 3" but your upper lateral is 4". That means if you tie your new workshop bathroom into your upper lateral instead of your house drain you will be okay. Is your workshop attached or detached from your home? Where does your house drain exit the house and is there a cleanout there? Don't give up yet until we have tried a few more things.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

I remember when we could only put three toilets on a 3" line. That was before the ipc.

[drtyhands]

I remember when we could only put three toilets on a 3" line. That was before the ipc.
How many does IPC allow?

[porschedude]

By the way Santa Maria is one of my favorite areas to ride motorcycles. My Brother-in-Law lives up there and a close friend is one of the brothers who owns Main Street Produce so I have been able to go riding in some really out of the way places up there.

If you could give us a better idea of what you are trying to do we might be able to figure something out with you. Chances are your house drain is only 3" but your upper lateral is 4". That means if you tie your new workshop bathroom into your upper lateral instead of your house drain you will be okay. Is your workshop attached or detached from your home? Where does your house drain exit the house and is there a cleanout there? Don't give up yet until we have tried a few more things.

Mark
Mark, I still ride the area. Lots of National Forest Areas. It used to much better when I was a kid. Dirt Bikes kept me out of trouble, well mostly...;)

Here goes,

Existing 2 story house, 1 bath downstairs, two upstairs, new proposed shop detached within 15 feet of a 3" cleanout. My plan was to plumb into this cleanout. Plan check wants to add a cleanout 3' out from the new toilet.

How are main plumbing drains layed out? Sewer connect is at the front of the house and the existing 3" cleanout is at the back corner. Would the 3" cleanout lineup straight with the sewer connect?

[ToUtahNow]

There is no rule of thumb about how the drains are run under the house. I am assuming your house is slab on grade. A plumber could locate the main sewer for you with an electronic locator if you cannot find it. It may be the only way to do what you want to do is going to be to run a new line from the shop to a 4" line in front of the house.

Mark

[porschedude]

Yes, a good plumber can find out the size of the drain with a camera.

you can also look at clean outs, do you have a 4" c/o around? or maybe a 3" that transitions to a 4" at the bottom. Your best bet will be a good plumber with a camera.

WCP, I have a 3" C/O and was hoping that there was a transition to a 4".

Lets say that I hired a plumber with a camera and it was true that I had a 3" C/O that transitioned to a 4" and everything was good. Have you ever heard of giving a letter of finding for a customer that could be used by the building department?

[Bob D.]

NJ code (NSPC 2006, Table 5.4.9) does not allow a 3" CO on a 4" line, minimum size for 4 & 6" is a 4" CO.

[markts30]

NJ code (NSPC 2006, Table 5.4.9) does not allow a 3" CO on a 4" line, minimum size for 4 & 6" is a 4" CO.

Here minimum size cleanout for all piping 4" and larger is 3 1/2"...
There is never a requirement for a 4" c/o in the UPC (AFAIK)...
A 6" sanitary line still only requires a 3 1/2" c/o...

[drtyhands]

WCP, I have a 3" C/O and was hoping that there was a transition to a 4".

Lets say that I hired a plumber with a camera and it was true that I had a 3" C/O that transitioned to a 4" and everything was good. Have you ever heard of giving a letter of finding for a customer that could be used by the building department?
Our local jurisdictions are not that complicated.If you research and find 4" draw it on your plans for submital for approval.After your installation the city is going to require that they see your tie in.It will/should be common knowledge for your inspectors to tell at that point wether you are connecting to a 3 or 4 inch pipe per plan.

[plumberscrack]

Here minimum size cleanout for all piping 4" and larger is 3 1/2"...
There is never a requirement for a 4" c/o in the UPC (AFAIK)...
A 6" sanitary line still only requires a 3 1/2" c/o...

You will have to throw back any 4" fish you catch in that sewer :)

[PLUMBER RICK]

the 3.5'' is because of the ibco/ iron body clean out.

my expanding cutters will easily go through a 3.5'' opening and expand out to 6''.

now pulling out a hugh wad of baby wipes from a toilet with my k-50 5/8'' cable was fun:D

rick.

[BigThom]

Years ago I was reprimanded by my plumbing inspector for using 4". I have 6 commodes on the system, and a swimming pool waste. He said I should have used 3" anyway (but he passed me).

His explanation: Though code requires 4", in a single family residence more commodes does not represent increased usage, only increased convenience. Pipes are designed to be self-cleaning. If you oversize a pipe (based on actual usage) it will not properly clean and the likelihood of plugs increases.

That makes sense to me. Pipes are sized based on the amount of flow from the fixtures. When we cut commode flush quantity to less than half, why did the fixture units not decrease. Logically we could flush twice as many at the same time without an overflow condition.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Years ago I was reprimanded by my plumbing inspector for using 4". I have 6 commodes on the system, and a swimming pool waste. He said I should have used 3" anyway (but he passed me).

His explanation: Though code requires 4", in a single family residence more commodes does not represent increased usage, only increased convenience. Pipes are designed to be self-cleaning. If you oversize a pipe (based on actual usage) it will not properly clean and the likelihood of plugs increases.

That makes sense to me. Pipes are sized based on the amount of flow from the fixtures. When we cut commode flush quantity to less than half, why did the fixture units not decrease. Logically we could flush twice as many at the same time without an overflow condition.

actually they have.

the low flow 1.6 went down to 3 fu on private and 4 on public.

the greater than 1.6 are still at 4 fu. for private and 6 on public.

i have a few large scale buildings with powder rooms that plug up due to the distance prior to tying into a common waste main. the 4 powder room toilets run anywhere from 40-80' without any help from the rest of the system.

rick.

[porschedude]

Hmmmm, so if I do have a 3" drain all the way to the street, and I change out the three existing higher than 1.6Gal toilets to new 1.6Gal they would let it go and add the 4th toilet in the shop?

[ToUtahNow]

Hmmmm, so if I do have a 3" drain all the way to the street, and I change out the three existing higher than 1.6Gal toilets to new 1.6Gal they would let it go and add the 4th toilet in the shop?

California is currently working under the 2000 UPC which requires a 4" drain when there are 4-water closets on a horizontal line. Next week California will start using the 2006 UPC which requires a 4" drain when there are 4-water closets on a horizontal line. I doubt it will ever change but if it does it won't be for at least another 3-years.

Mark

[Ace Sewer]

Hmmmm, so if I do have a 3" drain all the way to the street, and I change out the three existing higher than 1.6Gal toilets to new 1.6Gal they would let it go and add the 4th toilet in the shop?

If that makes it fly... but keep the old toilets; you might want to put them back in later. I've seen more than one house that never had a main line problem until they remodeled the bathrooms and put in 1.6gpf toilets, then suddenly it was clog city. All had cast iron lines, some were cured by jetting up the system from the septic tank and pulling the years of cast iron sand down to the tank, some were not.

[porschedude]

So here is another angle, the drawing corrections request a FU Count if it is 3". So I can provide the count which is below the maximum number and slide by the toilet note about having 3 on a lateral. It is worth a try...