Water pressure too high after using hot water

[adamw]

My house is about 8 years old. All original plumbing and 50gal natural gas hot water heater.
About 3 months ago, one morning after taking a shower, the whole house filter I have near the meter in my basement burst.
I had a plumber come out to replace the broken filter system with a new one. He said while he was there, he noticed the pressure was a bit on the high side (70ish) and backed it down to 50 using the PRV.

Since that day we experience very high pressure after running the hot water (shower, dishwasher, clothes washer, etc). The way we noticed is that now after using the hot water, our kitchen sink and our shower head would drip until we opened a faucet somewhere to relieve the pressure for about 10 seconds. In the 7 years of being in the house prior to this day, we never had a problem with the pressure.

Last night I bought a pressure gauge and ran a few tests:
I ran only cold water for about 5 minutes. Shut everything off and checked the pressure. It held steady at about 45psi.
I ran only HOT water for about 5 minutes. Shut everything off and checked the pressure. It started out at 45psi and about 10 minutes later was over 160psi!

I do NOT have an expansion tank near my water heater (or anywhere, for that matter).

It seems that adding an expansion tank would solve the problem. Does that seem right?

And if so, can anyone explain why all of a sudden we have this problem? Why did we not have this problem for the prior 7 years?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[PLUMBER RICK]

if it's only on the hot side, you have a check valve on the heater or those heat saver nipples with little marbles/ junk:eek: you need to install an expansion tank and that should help.

if it's on both the hot and cold, then there is an issue with your regulator and the bypass for thermal expansion is not working. or there is a check valve on the main/ meter.

at 160psi, your heaters prv should be dripping pretty good. you do have a prv don't you:confused::rolleyes:

just hot? or both hot and cold:confused:

rick.

[biscuit]

Rick pretty much nailed it all I believe.

@ 160 psi, the T&P relief should have kicked in. I would change that out as well as install the expansion tank. If you have the check valve on the cold water side, make sure the tank is installed on the proper side.

Regards,

[adamw]

I do have a relief valve on the water heater, yet it never lets any water out.

Is it possible that it is stuck? I'm afraid to manually test it for fear that it will not shut.

If I replace this water heater with a tankless unit, would I still need to have an expansion tank on the line?

Thanks!

[PLUMBER RICK]

I do have a relief valve on the water heater, yet it never lets any water out.

Is it possible that it is stuck? I'm afraid to manually test it for fear that it will not shut.

If I replace this water heater with a tankless unit, would I still need to have an expansion tank on the line?

Thanks!


once again, is it only the hot pressure that goes up or both the hot and cold?

the relief valve is bad. they are set for 125-150 psi.

you really don't want to swap to a tankless. but you can read all about that on other threads.
a tankless is less prone to thermal expansion as it only operates on demand.

your issue is either a check valve, regulator or real high city pressure before the regulator. what is your pressure before the regulaotr and after the regulator. when it goes to 160 is that both hot and cold:confused:

[adamw]

once again, is it only the hot pressure that goes up or both the hot and cold?

the relief valve is bad. they are set for 125-150 psi.

you really don't want to swap to a tankless. but you can read all about that on other threads.
a tankless is less prone to thermal expansion as it only operates on demand.

your issue is either a check valve, regulator or real high city pressure before the regulator. what is your pressure before the regulaotr and after the regulator. when it goes to 160 is that both hot and cold:confused:

The only way I've tested the pressure is on a sink that has a single temp control turned all the way to the cold side.

The pressure readings, then I guess are only on the cold side. However, the pressure readings I got were dictated by the use of either hot or cold on another faucet.

How easy/hard is it to change out the relief valve on the water heater?
I'm thinking I need to go buy an expansion tank, and while I'm there, get a new relief valve.

Why do I not want to swap to a tankless? (Besides the obvious high initial cost)

Thanks again!

[PLUMBER RICK]

The only way I've tested the pressure is on a sink that has a single temp control turned all the way to the cold side.

The pressure readings, then I guess are only on the cold side. However, the pressure readings I got were dictated by the use of either hot or cold on another faucet.

How easy/hard is it to change out the relief valve on the water heater?

easy to change, but it needs to be piped to an approved location.
I'm thinking I need to go buy an expansion tank, and while I'm there, get a new relief valve.

good idea. but why the high pressure all of a sudden. you need to check the pre regulator pressure too. it could be a bad pressure regulator.



Why do I not want to swap to a tankless? (Besides the obvious high initial cost)

Thanks again!

high cost, no return on your savings, high required maintenance, low gpm. if the tank has worked in the past, just replace the tank heater. why spend $2500-4500 on something that has no real benefit in your application.

read some old threads on our tankless debate. lots of exchange of thoughts.
rick.

[adamw]

good idea. but why the high pressure all of a sudden. you need to check the pre regulator pressure too. it could be a bad pressure regulator.

That's what I'd like to know!
I suppose you're talking about the "PRV" right?

If it is a PRV issue, wouldn't the pressure reading ALWAYS be too high, not be dependent on if hot or cold water was just in use? Plus, the Water Company guy said there is no way 160psi is coming in my house. He said if it was, then he'd be getting calls from people all over my block.

Could the T&P valve on the WH just recently have stopped working? If it were working correctly, would it ever just relieve pressure without letting out water at the same time?

Thanks!

[PLUMBER RICK]

That's what I'd like to know!
I suppose you're talking about the "PRV" right?

If it is a PRV issue, wouldn't the pressure reading ALWAYS be too high, not be dependent on if hot or cold water was just in use? Plus, the Water Company guy said there is no way 160psi is coming in my house. He said if it was, then he'd be getting calls from people all over my block.
still would like to know the high pressure side of the regulator. the city street pressure. please post for the 3rd. time;)

regulators typically have a thermal expansion bypass.

Could the T&P valve on the WH just recently have stopped working? If it were working correctly, would it ever just relieve pressure without letting out water at the same time?

no:eek: if it relieves it leaks.



Thanks!

there is always going to be thermal expansion. but it will typically go back into the city main. unless you have a check valve or 150# plus pressure before the regulator.

need to know the pressure. a regulator doesn't last forever. also watch the gage on the cold side with the heater not heating. it probably is not holding at 45.

you need to find out the reason the pressure is going to 160. either a check valve, or bad regulator, or high city main pressure.

not too many other things can cause this.

need that high pre regulator pressure. this is the key to my next answer.

rick.

[adamw]

there is always going to be thermal expansion. but it will typically go back into the city main. unless you have a check valve or 150# plus pressure before the regulator.

need to know the pressure. a regulator doesn't last forever. also watch the gage on the cold side with the heater not heating. it probably is not holding at 45.

you need to find out the reason the pressure is going to 160. either a check valve, or bad regulator, or high city main pressure.

not too many other things can cause this.

need that high pre regulator pressure. this is the key to my next answer.

rick.

I was told by the water company that it is likely coming in at no higher than 100.

Also, there is a backflow-preventer on the line, which he told me is why the pressure won't go back into the supply.

When the heater is not heating, the pressure on the gauge is steady at 45psi.

[PLUMBER RICK]

I was told by the water company that it is likely coming in at no higher than 100.

Also, there is a backflow-preventer on the line, which he told me is why the pressure won't go back into the supply.

When the heater is not heating, the pressure on the gauge is steady at 45psi.


well that only took 4 tries to get it out of you:D

you need an expansion tank. and replace that relief valve too.

make sure you pipe the valve to the outside or a sump pump. no standing water in the discharge line. it needs to slope like a waste line.

the cold water coming into the system will create a larger thermal expansion curve. the expansion tanks are sized accordingly.

rick.

[adamw]

well that only took 4 tries to get it out of you:D

you need an expansion tank. and replace that relief valve too.

make sure you pipe the valve to the outside or a sump pump. no standing water in the discharge line. it needs to slope like a waste line.

the cold water coming into the system will create a larger thermal expansion curve. the expansion tanks are sized accordingly.

rick.

Ok. So, one last thing....

Why is this just now an issue? How come in 7 years we never had an issue with this expansion/pressure build? There is nothing different in the system that I know of.

Thanks!

[gear junkie]

I honestly don't know the answer why after 7 years, this problem is happening. Could the the new house filter have anything to do with it? That and the PRV(he did reduce the pressure?) was touched. Nothing else changed. Any of these 2 possible?

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ok. So, one last thing....

Why is this just now an issue? How come in 7 years we never had an issue with this expansion/pressure build? There is nothing different in the system that I know of.

Thanks!

there is, that's why all the questions. something has changed. i'm trying to figure out what. how long has that backflow preventer been installed. that's when your issues started. or you fixed all the dripping/ running fixtures in the system;)

rick.

[adamw]

The reason we had the plumber come out in the first place is because the existing whole whose filter burst. The container that screws into the unit that holds the filter cartridge broke at the threads.

I'm tempted to think that was a result of the pressure being too high. And it did burst about 10 minutes after I got out of the hot shower. But why that day? Why not any day before that? That filter had been on our system for years.

So, after that happened, we called a plumber who replaced the filter unit with a completely different brand. He also installed one (maybe two) new shut off valves to "isolate" the water filter. He said he adjusted the PRV down. The backflow preventer has been on the system since the house was built 7 years ago.

So as much as I am tempted to think it is something the plumber did that is causing the new pressure issue....I'm thinking the pressure issue started just before he got there.

[gear junkie]

This is an interesting one. Keep us updated if you figure it out locally.

[biscuit]

My first guess at why its just now happening would be that either city pressure has increased recently or if it has stayed the same, the t&p could have been relieving the pressure and he never noticed it?? Now it is stuck shut and the pressure has to go somewhere.

Regards,

[adamw]

Another question....
For a tank water heater... lets say for argument sake the actual internal tank is 5 feet high. When the tank is filled with water, is it filled all the way to the top at 5 feet? Or is it filled only to say 4 feet, leaving a bit of space open that is meant to allow for expansion of the water from heating it?

When the water is heating, should the cold inlet line get warm? If yes, how far up should it be warm? 6 inches, 12 inches, etc?

Thanks!

[DuckButter]

I just skimmed this thread.
The inlet will get luke-warm as long as your not running hot water, running hot water will introduce cold water to the inlet and cool it.

First I just want to restate how absolutely important it is that you get a working T&P valve on that heater...it is a MUST.
I read through and from what it sounds like, the expansion tank is either water logged, or there isn't one.
When a PRV is installed, you MUST install an expansion tank...you are seeing the result of not having one, or a defective one.
A PRV is a one way valve, pressure from thermal expansion can't escape to the street main.
In reading your pressure starts at 45 after using hot, then jumps to 160 it's almost a guarantee it's from thermal expansion as the water heater reheats after use in that 10 minute period after use...doesn't sound like a bad PRV...so far, though I might be wrong.
I'd focus on the expansion tank and ABSOLUTELY get a new T&P on that heater.

[Ruudacguy]

Is it also possible that the thermostat on the heater is malfunctioning to a certain point causing the water to get hotter than normal, and thus causing more thermal expansion?

[markts30]

If you are still reading this thread wondering what to do, at least tell us where you live so we know which paper to watch for the water heater explosion / house destroyed news story...

1 - You have to get the T&P relief valve replaced - it is an easy job but VITAL....
2 - You have to get an expansion tank on the heater system...

It would be neat to find out why this started but worry about that later...
Fix this stuff NOW...

[gear junkie]

Is it also possible that the thermostat on the heater is malfunctioning to a certain point causing the water to get hotter than normal, and thus causing more thermal expansion?
This is a good point(FROM AN HVAC GUY). What's the water temp?

[adamw]

Think I could add an Expansion Tank and replace the Pressure relief valve myself?
I done some plumbing. I added a new spigot and replaced an old one. So I have a torch and solder and such.

Thanks for all your help!

[gear junkie]

The biggest thing with the PRV is to use the exact same as the original. Let us know if you need some help. Our HD has a great set up of what an expansion tank setup looks like, maybe yours has the same.

[adamw]

I just check the water temp. It is just about 120F, which is what I set it to 4-1/2 years ago when my first child was born.

[gear junkie]

How did you check, look at the temp setting or actually measure the water temp?

[adamw]

How did you check, look at the temp setting or actually measure the water temp?

I knew I should have specified.
I took a 2-cup pyrex measuring cup, stuck a meat thermometer in it, ran hot water into it so it overflowed for about 3 minutes. Max temp: 120.

[adamw]

Oh, if it helps any... I checked the pressure at my neighbors house tonight. His pressure is at 60. We ran the hot water for 5 minutes and checked again, The highest it got was 78. Now, he does have a water heater that is only about 1 year old and a Pressure Regulator that is only about 2 years old.

So, could a water heater that is "going bad" cause this sudden increase in pressure?

[gear junkie]

Sounds like you checked the temp right. Does your neighbor have an expansion tank?

[DuckButter]

So, could a water heater that is "going bad" cause this sudden increase in pressure?
One more time...

First I just want to restate how absolutely important it is that you get a working T&P valve on that heater...it is a MUST.
I read through and from what it sounds like, the expansion tank is either water logged, or there isn't one.
When a PRV is installed, you MUST install an expansion tank...you are seeing the result of not having one, or a defective one.
A PRV is a one way valve, pressure from thermal expansion can't escape to the street main.
In reading your pressure starts at 45 after using hot, then jumps to 160 it's almost a guarantee it's from thermal expansion as the water heater reheats after use in that 10 minute period after use...doesn't sound like a bad PRV...so far, though I might be wrong.
I'd focus on the expansion tank and ABSOLUTELY get a new T&P on that heater.

[westcoastplumber]

I have yet to read the PSI taken from the hose bibb, at the front of the house, after the PRV??

The only place I read you tested was at a faucet, that reading is not very acurate.

I would test with 2 different guages, I keep 2 fairly new ones on my van, and I double test with both, guages can get knocked around and damaged.

Test at the hose bibb entering the house, past the PSI, what is your PSI then? this would be cold water.

[gear junkie]

How's this theory? The reducing valve was bad and allowed for the expanding water to backflow so the expansion was never noticable or observed. The plumber altered the reducing valve by reducing the pressure to 50psi and maybe this "popped things in place" for lack of a better term. The reducing valve is now working as it should and not allowing for any backfeeding causing the huge spike in pressure. This would satisfy all the symptoms; why is the water 160 psi now and not before? Why does the neighbor's system work(never altered). Is this plausible?

We do know this. You need an expansion tank and a new prv even if they don't solve the problem. These tasks should take you 3-4 hour tops. Do these and we'll see what happens next.

[adamw]

I'm going to go to Lowes in the AM to get an expansion tank and T&P valve.

How's this theory? The reducing valve was bad and allowed for the expanding water to backflow so the expansion was never noticable or observed. The plumber altered the reducing valve by reducing the pressure to 50psi and maybe this "popped things in place" for lack of a better term. The reducing valve is now working as it should and not allowing for any backfeeding causing the huge spike in pressure. This would satisfy all the symptoms; why is the water 160 psi now and not before? Why does the neighbor's system work(never altered). Is this plausible?
I have a hole in the theory you stated... There is a separate backflow preventer.

Also, on the lines of a couple other comments...did something change before this all happened, and maybe the pressure what getting out somewhere else.

I remember that only a few days before the water filter burst, I replaced the innards of one of my toilets. If I remember correctly, it was running a lot. So, maybe the excess pressure was getting out through there. Then, when I replaced it, it tightened that "leak" and it found the next escape... an old weakened water filter housing. Now that the water filter housing was replaced, it is finding an outlet, albeit tiny, in the form of dripping kitchen and shower faucets.

But then, that still leads me to ask, how come it took 7 years to notice this. For this, I'll theorize that when the plumber came, he checked our pressure and said it was too high. I'm not certain what he said it was, but I'm thinking in the 90 range. He backed it down to 50 (hence my present 45 reading). So if our pressure was always at 90, maybe the jump to 130 or 160 wasn't as apparent as the just from 50 to 130 or 160. So now that he backed it down to 50, the jump is more apparent.

But, that still doesn't explain why my neighbor doesn't have an Expansion tank and has no pressure issues.

I have yet to read the PSI taken from the hose bibb, at the front of the house, after the PRV??

The only place I read you tested was at a faucet, that reading is not very acurate.

I would test with 2 different guages, I keep 2 fairly new ones on my van, and I double test with both, guages can get knocked around and damaged.

Test at the hose bibb entering the house, past the PSI, what is your PSI then? this would be cold water.I don't understand why the reading would be different on an outside hose bib than it would be on my inside faucet. The hose bibs and the faucet are both AFTER the PRV. If my "cold" reading is at 45 inside, which is what I expect it to be (50ish), it seems it is reading correct. The only reading that would seem to be incorrect is the 160, but if the 45 is correct, why wouldn't the 160 be?

This is really helping me. Keep those comments and theories coming!

Thanks!

[DuckButter]

Expansion tank, expansion tank, expansion tank.

[ToUtahNow]

These are always hard to test because what we could do in minutes takes you days if it ever gets done because of a lack of specific tools and posting time. The reason your faucet is a bad location for the pressure test is because you stated (I think) it was a single handle faucet and no one knows how much if any water is bypassing.

You need to find out your pressure in front of your PRV and both your hot (heater on/off) and cold pressure inside the house (or inside for the hot and hose bibb for the cold). For the most part you should be able to test hot and cold at your laundry unless you have a single valve.

Your PRV is likely not a one way valve but if you give us the name and model number we can find out easy enough. When the water company told you you have a backflow devise on your meter I am guessing it is a simple “dual check valve”. It would help us to know what type of devise you have. With a backflow devise you should have an expansion tank installed. If your water heater has check type heat savers you need to check to make sure they are okay.

If the hot pressure gets to over 160 psig and the T&P is not relieving the pressure the T&P needs to be replaced regardless of what else you do. What type of valves and what type of filter did the plumber install when he replaced your filter? How far away from the water heater is your filter? Is the filter media in your new filter the same as the old one?

If you can provide pictures we may be able to spot something you have not noticed. With exact answers to all of the above it will be easier to try to diagnosis your problem.

Mark

[PLUMBER RICK]

there is, that's why all the questions. something has changed. i'm trying to figure out what. how long has that backflow preventer been installed. that's when your issues started. or you fixed all the dripping/ running fixtures in the system;)

rick.

this is from 9:55 am this morning. i had your answer. you now just realize after 30+ post what i told you to look for and what i determined was right.

please in the future, follow up on the advice. i know it's free, but i did spend the better part of an hour this morning asking and probing you for answers.

i had it all along with this last quote.:scratchhead:

I'm going to go to Lowes in the AM to get an expansion tank and T&P valve.

I have a hole in the theory you stated... There is a separate backflow preventer.

Also, on the lines of a couple other comments...did something change before this all happened, and maybe the pressure what getting out somewhere else.

I remember that only a few days before the water filter burst, I replaced the innards of one of my toilets. If I remember correctly, it was running a lot. So, maybe the excess pressure was getting out through there. Then, when I replaced it, it tightened that "leak" and it found the next escape... an old weakened water filter housing. Now that the water filter housing was replaced, it is finding an outlet, albeit tiny, in the form of dripping kitchen and shower faucets.

But then, that still leads me to ask, how come it took 7 years to notice this. For this, I'll theorize that when the plumber came, he checked our pressure and said it was too high. I'm not certain what he said it was, but I'm thinking in the 90 range. He backed it down to 50 (hence my present 45 reading). So if our pressure was always at 90, maybe the jump to 130 or 160 wasn't as apparent as the just from 50 to 130 or 160. So now that he backed it down to 50, the jump is more apparent.

But, that still doesn't explain why my neighbor doesn't have an Expansion tank and has no pressure issues.

I don't understand why the reading would be different on an outside hose bib than it would be on my inside faucet. The hose bibs and the faucet are both AFTER the PRV. If my "cold" reading is at 45 inside, which is what I expect it to be (50ish), it seems it is reading correct. The only reading that would seem to be incorrect is the 160, but if the 45 is correct, why wouldn't the 160 be?

This is really helping me. Keep those comments and theories coming!

Thanks!

the help and answer to your problem was already answered this morning:mad:

the rest is just listening to yourself think:scratchhead:

i know it sounds harsh, but please read through all the posts from #1 to where i finished this morning at 9:55 pst. post #14

rick.

[drtyhands]

I'll make sure you get the first pick of lolly pops after dinner tomorrow night.

Will that be O/K Ricky:hug:

[ToUtahNow]

I'll make sure you get the first pick of lolly pops after dinner tomorrow night.

Will that be O/K Ricky:hug:

Like you could stop him?

Mark

[DuckButter]

If this guy doesn't come back to fill us in on the finale...I'm gonna cry.

[adamw]

Ask and ye shall receive...
WH: Bradford White Model: MI5036EN10 - 50gal
T&P: Watts - M7 - STD - Z21.22 - 3/4in. - 10xl - Ext 3 - 150psi - 210*F
PRV: Wilkins - Model 600 - Range 25-75 - 3/4" pipe

Pictures!

click each for a MUCH larger version

T&P Valve:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/TandPT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/TandP.jpg)

Water Heater:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/whT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/wh.jpg)

Filter setup: (currently on bypass):
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/filterT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/Filter.jpg)

From filter down to meter:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fromMeterToFilterT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fromMeterToFilter.jpg)

Backflow:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/backflowT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/backflow.jpg)

Meter & PRV:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/PRVandMeterT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/PRVAndMeter.jpg)

PRV close up:
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/PRVT.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/PRV.jpg)

Thanks!

[ToUtahNow]

Okay so now we know your PRV is not a one way valve but you do have a dual check at your meter so you should have an expansion tank (sound familiar?) for thermal expansion. I don't see anything with the new filter or your water heater which should be causing problems.

Now depending on how much further you really want to go with this you need to get us those pressures. However, if you are ready to accept the advise to date and call it a day install the new T&P and the expansion tank which we already know you need and hopefully your problem is solved.

Keep us posted-Mark

[ToUtahNow]

On another note as an FYI I just checked the owners manual on your filter and I believe your filter is set to bypass meaning you are not filtering your water. I wasn't sure if you were aware of that or not.

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/images/t07/0000003/r03865v-1.pdf

Mark

[haycad]

theres a couple plumbers that feel like blowing there own horn so much there not answering your question. why after 7 years? (the plumbers are right you must get an expansion tank and t&p asap for yours and your families safety.) when you rebuilt your toilet did the fill valve look different from the other toilet fill valves in your house? the reason i ask is in washington 7 years ago we were allowed to install a device called a govenor 80 which is a toilet fill valve but it also works like an expansion tank to limit thermal expansion. i dont know if they were installed in PA but the timing is right because they only last about 7-10 years. and when they go bad than you have expansion problems. also have you done in maintenance on your heater (drain it?) over the years sediment will build around the thermostat and it will not work properly. ive seen some that werent even in liquid because of so much sediment. so i hope that answers your question. also if youve never drained your heater i wouldnt do it now it will cause more problems

[ToUtahNow]

theres a couple plumbers that feel like blowing there own horn so much there not answering your question. why after 7 years? (the plumbers are right you must get an expansion tank and t&p asap for yours and your families safety.) when you rebuilt your toilet did the fill valve look different from the other toilet fill valves in your house? the reason i ask is in washington 7 years ago we were allowed to install a device called a govenor 80 which is a toilet fill valve but it also works like an expansion tank to limit thermal expansion. i dont know if they were installed in PA but the timing is right because they only last about 7-10 years. and when they go bad than you have expansion problems. also have you done in maintenance on your heater (drain it?) over the years sediment will build around the thermostat and it will not work properly. ive seen some that werent even in liquid because of so much sediment. so i hope that answers your question. also if youve never drained your heater i wouldnt do it now it will cause more problems

Interesting call on the Watts ballcock but weren't those sold as retro-fits? I can't recall any manufacturer installing them on new water closets. I guess he could check at his neighbors house to see if his neighbor has a Watts ballcock. As for the thermostat malfunctioning I believe he tested the temperature while testing pressures and it is the same temperature it was 4 1/2 years ago.

Mark

[adamw]

I put the pressure gauge on the outside hose bib.
The readings are the same. Around 50psi normally. After running hot water for 5 minutes, shutting everything off, around 10 minutes later, the gauge was up to 160.

Also, I manually opened the T&P and it did open and water came out (a bit brown at first). It seems to shut all the way, but I'm not 100% confident with that.

Finally, I wound up at Home Depot. I spoke with a couple of guys in the plumbing department. The one guy has been a plumber for 40 years. He recommended the first thing I do is replace the PRV. The other guy concurred that in this area, a lot of 8 year old homes are starting to need new ones.

So I bought one. I got the old one off. Now I have another issue. In the picture below you'll see what I'm going to call a brass fitting connected to the copper pipe. It is screwed on. Slightly behind that is the nut that will hold the fitting to the PRV. It seems the the threads on that nut are wider than the threads on the new one, so it will not fit when I try to attach it to the new PRV. So I need to get the fitting off so I can put the new fitting and nut in their place. Unfortunately, I can not get the fitting off! I've tried putting a wrench just behind the fitting (on the copper pipe nut) and turning the fitting with vice-grips. But it won't budge. I'm afraid to apply to much force, because if I snap the water line coming into the house (before the shutoff) I'm really gonna be screwed!

Any ideas on how to get this fitting off? Is there something I can spray on it?

Thanks!
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fittingt.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fitting.jpg)

[adamw]

Would heating it help?

[drtyhands]

Try heating it while tapping aggresively,not too much to melt the solder joint.We use a large crescent on the copper male adapter then a long pipe wrench on the brass.

[ToUtahNow]

I put the pressure gauge on the outside hose bib.
The readings are the same. Around 50psi normally. After running hot water for 5 minutes, shutting everything off, around 10 minutes later, the gauge was up to 160.

Also, I manually opened the T&P and it did open and water came out (a bit brown at first). It seems to shut all the way, but I'm not 100% confident with that.

Finally, I wound up at Home Depot. I spoke with a couple of guys in the plumbing department. The one guy has been a plumber for 40 years. He recommended the first thing I do is replace the PRV. The other guy concurred that in this area, a lot of 8 year old homes are starting to need new ones.

So I bought one. I got the old one off. Now I have another issue. In the picture below you'll see what I'm going to call a brass fitting connected to the copper pipe. It is screwed on. Slightly behind that is the nut that will hold the fitting to the PRV. It seems the the threads on that nut are wider than the threads on the new one, so it will not fit when I try to attach it to the new PRV. So I need to get the fitting off so I can put the new fitting and nut in their place. Unfortunately, I can not get the fitting off! I've tried putting a wrench just behind the fitting (on the copper pipe nut) and turning the fitting with vice-grips. But it won't budge. I'm afraid to apply to much force, because if I snap the water line coming into the house (before the shutoff) I'm really gonna be screwed!

Any ideas on how to get this fitting off? Is there something I can spray on it?

Thanks!
http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fittingt.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/fitting.jpg)

Before you go too far consider that if your PRV was bad your pressure would be high on the cold side as well. The PRV you currently have is a Wilkins 600. If you are replacing it with a different brand/model you would likely nrrd to change the union tailpiece and union nut. Heat might help but you shouldn't need it. If you do use heat be careful not to not cause the MIP adapter to end up out of round.

Mark

[adamw]

Using the suggestion for the crescent and pipe-wrench combo I was able to get it off. I also applied just a little heat first.

NOW #&%*#*%& with the new brass nut and fitting in place, when I tighten everything back up, I get a drip from that fitting where it connects to the copper.

Probably just should have called a professional from the beginning! Now I don't know what to do to get it to stop dripping. Before I put the new fitting on, I used a brass-bristle brush to clean up the threads. The first time, I put some plumbers tape on it. It leaked. I took it off, cleaned off the plumbers tape with the brush, put it all back without plumbers tape. It still leaks. I'm pretty sure I have the fitting screwed onto the copper as tight as it will go. I'm afraid if I try to make it any tighter it will snap something.

NOW WHAT!?!?!

[adamw]

If any of you professionals would be so kind as to PM me your phone number to maybe help me through this over the phone, I'd be very grateful!

[PLUMBER RICK]

Using the suggestion for the crescent and pipe-wrench combo I was able to get it off. I also applied just a little heat first.

NOW #&%*#*%& with the new brass nut and fitting in place, when I tighten everything back up, I get a drip from that fitting where it connects to the copper.

Probably just should have called a professional from the beginning! Now I don't know what to do to get it to stop dripping. Before I put the new fitting on, I used a brass-bristle brush to clean up the threads. The first time, I put some plumbers tape on it. It leaked. I took it off, cleaned off the plumbers tape with the brush, put it all back without plumbers tape. It still leaks. I'm pretty sure I have the fitting screwed onto the copper as tight as it will go. I'm afraid if I try to make it any tighter it will snap something.

NOW WHAT!?!?!


go back to h.d . and speak to that pro with 40 years experiance.

oh, while you're there, buy the expansion tank everyone told you about. and you can return that regulator you didn't need.

if only you would read befeore you act. i'm taking this thread as a complete waste of our time.

rick.

[DuckButter]

You need to prioritize the T&P valve on your water heater...absolutely most important..the rating on the pic states it's a 150/210, which is what it should be...yet it's not triggered by 160 psi..thats VERY bad.
The "guy" at home depot is likely guessing.
You safety is first priority, without a functioning T&P on that water heater it could explode.
I'm not sure why you're replacing the PRV without doing the T&P and expansion tank first.
If there's still an issue once the expansion tank is on...then you look into the PRV.

[DuckButter]

I'll put this in other terms...the guys at home depot give myself and a few others here a good living.
If I had a nickel for every customer that tells me "The guy at home depot said this would work", or "The guy at the hardware store said...."...I'd be retired.

[haycad]

rick and duckbutter are right how many hours to you have into this? and money in parts u didnt need? next time hire a plumber and save yourself some time and money.! what is your proffesion? ive worked on cars before but it doesnt mean im gonna tear apart my transmission just cuz a guy at the auto parts store thinks he knows what it is

[gear junkie]

I think Adam was on the right path by coming here but went astray towards the end. He could do this job if he listened to what everyone was saying. He got steered a little wrong by listening to the guy at HD. He never told us how to do our job or insulted us in any way. He came to us for help and posted in the right category but needs to remember to listen to the help offered. Adam, you can do this, take pictures of what's leaking or wrong. It'll speed things up. Just listen to us. Or you could just pay for a plumber.

[gear junkie]

You seriously need to let it go Ben. Even though you won't admit it, you are constantly making references about me (do our job or insulted comment). You did this in a few other threads. You just need to stop thinking about me and concentrate on helping people here. IT'S OVER
What are you talking about? No one is thinking about you. It was over a long time ago, you just never realized it.

[adamw]

Hi Guys.
First of all, again, thank you for all your help, comments, advice, support, etc.
It may not seem like I am listening to you guys part of the time, but I am! I'm also listening to my neighbors from their own experience of either DIY or hiring a plumber. I'm also listening to people on other forums. I'm also listening to plumbers locally.
I am trying to process ALL of this information as best I can and make one (or more rational decision on how to proceed.
I am a computer programmer so my line of thinking is very much along the "debugging" and eliminating one thing at a time till I find the bug.
I've also worked on cars, and done fix-it type stuff around the house. I do consider myself fairly handy, but if things are outside my abilities I will go to the pros. I'm also very cheap. So if I can fix it myself, I will.

As for the leak, I fixed it. One of the guys from the forum recommend I get some pipe dope along with 2 layers of teflon tape. So I did that, and the leak is gone. I have adjusted my pressure to 50psi.

I bought a T&P valve and plan to put that in tonight. I'm hoping it is as straightforward as it seems. I'll be putting some teflon and dope on that too!

I was at HD looking to purchase an expansion tank. After looking at all that will be involved to install it, I think I am going to leave that part to a pro. A local guy is supposed to call me on Monday with an estimate.

I'll let you know how the T&P install goes. I'm also going to run my hot water test again to see if the PRV had anything to do with it. According to what the majority of what you folks are saying, it won't. But I will let you know the results of that test too.

Thanks again for all your help, and please do not feel like any of your efforts have been wasted here!

[fronty]

What are you talking about? No one is thinking about you. It was over a long time ago, you just never realized it.

Whatever Ben. Here is a quote from the Electric water heater thread.


Sauk 98, you were a great DIY'r to help out. You were respectful, kept us updated and never claimed to be something you're not. I'll help you out anyday.

It is the same crap you have been pm'ing me and were posting in my thread. Who else have you made claims about being something they are not? You know what I'm talking about. I know I touched a nerve with you for some reason, but you seriously need to let it go. You wouldn't leave me alone in my thread, through pms, and now through other threads. I'm asking you personally to drop it. This is getting absolutely ridiculous. I apologize for doing this out in the open, but I believe this is the only way. I'm 100 percent serious. Let this crap go.

[DuckButter]

The pressure off the street main is 100.

[rick1643]

Whatever Ben. Here is a quote from the Electric water heater thread.



It is the same crap you have been pm'ing me and were posting in my thread. Who else have you made claims about being something they are not? You know what I'm talking about. I know I touched a nerve with you for some reason, but you seriously need to let it go. You wouldn't leave me alone in my thread, through pms, and now through other threads. I'm asking you personally to drop it. This is getting absolutely ridiculous. I apologize for doing this out in the open, but I believe this is the only way. I'm 100 percent serious. Let this crap go.



Look who's not letting it go...Fronty. Are you paranoid or just an attention whore. Quit stalking Gear and give it a rest.

[adamw]

I replace the T&P without incident (just got the floor a little wet).

Turned the thermostat back up, and the pressure built up to near 150 again... but this time, the T&P valve opened up.

The old T&P is below. Not that I've ever seen an 8 year old T&P before, but this one looks pretty corroded.

Now I'm going to contact the plumber on Monday and see if I can't get him here sooner then the end of the week. In the meantime, I'm gonna have to keep letting the pressure off in the sink after we use hot water.

I'll post again after the expansion tank is installed to let you know how that goes.

Thanks again for everyones help!!! If you guys ever need computer help, please PM me.

http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/oldTandPt.jpg (http://www.c3vr.com/member_uploads/1_100/4/oldTandP.jpg)

[drtyhands]

I think it was cool watching you work through it.Good luck with your plumber.

I'm thankfull for your thanks to the guys.A lot of people don't appreciate the efforts these guys put into someones task in need of help and even go so far as being rude when it gets challenging.

[gear junkie]

Knew you could do it. Thanks for offering to help us with computer problems. I'm totally computer illiterate so expect a few questions. Thanks and stop by anytime.

[drtyhands]

Look who's not letting it go...Fronty. Are you paranoid or just an attention whore. Quit stalking Gear and give it a rest.Someone get this man a cigar.My sentiments exactly.Thanks Rick:bravo:

[westcoastplumber]

Good Job, I know we all can't wait to hear the final diagnosis, please be sure to get back to us!!

Very glad you fixed the t&p, thats is a very serious safety issue, and I am glad you did the right thing and fixed it right away.

[rick1643]

Someone get this man a cigar.My sentiments exactly.Thanks Rick:bravo:
Anytime Adam, hope you guys had a good time tonight. I was going to go but had a couple of jobs today, and the thought of driving three hours in the rain on the freeway when we are waiting for snow wasn't appealing. Next time for sure........Rick

[DuckButter]

I'll post again after the expansion tank is installed to let you know how that goes.

Thanks again for everyones help!!! If you guys ever need computer help, please PM me.

I can breath already!
THAT was what we were mainly concerned with...extremely dangerous when a T&P doesn't work.
The expansion tank is next in priority.
As for your offer...not so fast, we can definetly use some helpful advice on internet marketing, PPC, and whats "in" as far as web pages...etc.

[rick1643]

Stay out of it.Why, Are you the ThreadMaster?You don't even know what is going on. I know exactly whats going on, I've followed this from the beginning.I don't even know who you are.I state my name, occupation, and location, which is more than I can say for you. You have like 2 posts here. Gear Junkie keeps reiterating the same crap over and over. This was through PM's, my thread, and other threads. I have moved on, and I am asking other questions without even mentioning him. Gear Junkie is the one that has moved on, he is here helping someone else. You followed him here to harass him more and to stir it up all over again. Isn't 350 posts to your thread enough.You also could be more original and not take my comment (stalking).Hows this for an original comment "Bite Me"

[MrsSeatDown]

Other Rick, if you chose KissMyAss instead of bite me, you could have included a cute smiley:kma:

:lmao: Joey

[DuckButter]

Someone get this man a cigar.My sentiments exactly.Thanks Rick:bravo:
At this point Bens gonna hafta watch every word he types in case it was used on that thread...for example, he typed the word "the" numerous times there..so use of that word might be construed as referrencing that thread...Ben, sorry...no more "the" in your dialogue.

[drtyhands]

Stay out of it. You don't even know what is going on. I don't even know who you are. You have like 2 posts here. Gear Junkie keeps reiterating the same crap over and over. This was through PM's, my thread, and other threads. I have moved on, and I am asking other questions without even mentioning him. You also could be more original and not take my comment (stalking).
Thats it,
I have grown tired of the whining and attacking.Fronty go take a some time off,come back and be a positive influence.Your ego is crying.

[haycad]

good job with th d.i.y. t&p make sure to keep an eye on it after the plumber puts in the expansion tank. they are a 1 time valve somtimes you get lucky though and they seal up. good job!

[Drain Medic]

Now hijacking other threads at that

[gear junkie]

Stay out of it. You don't even know what is going on. I don't even know who you are. You have like 2 posts here. Gear Junkie keeps reiterating the same crap over and over. This was through PM's, my thread, and other threads. I have moved on, and I am asking other questions without even mentioning him. You also could be more original and not take my comment (stalking).
Fronty doesn't even bother me anymore because I believe he actually has some medical or social disorder(not joking). I think it's pretty sad and pathetic so Fronty, please get help. You have had some long term underlying issues that flared up in our conversation. I hope you get the help you need.

Ben(just a concerned member)

[fronty]

Stay out of it.Why, Are you the ThreadMaster?You don't even know what is going on. I know exactly whats going on, I've followed this from the beginning.I don't even know who you are.I state my name, occupation, and location, which is more than I can say for you. You have like 2 posts here. Gear Junkie keeps reiterating the same crap over and over. This was through PM's, my thread, and other threads. I have moved on, and I am asking other questions without even mentioning him. Gear Junkie is the one that has moved on, he is here helping someone else. You followed him here to harass him more and to stir it up all over again. Isn't 350 posts to your thread enough.You also could be more original and not take my comment (stalking).Hows this for an original comment "Bite Me"

Sounds good to me. Just don't copy other people. My point isn't following him here; it is they fact that he won't let it go. I have chose to ignore him. I realized this morning that every time I see him reference me, I laugh and shake my head. I actually find it amusing. I should find humor and be flattered that I affected someone so positively. Seriously, I could write a whole thread on psycho Ben and you would think he is crazy. I had a few friends read through his threads, pms, and such not telling them that I was fronty. They all thought this guy was a stalker. Nobody here knows the full story except Ben and I, which is a little scary.


EDIT: I went back and deleted all of my threads. This wasn't the proper venue to handle it. I should have contacted Josh the webmaster or called the police.

[westcoastplumber]

This is the start of a good thread about to be closed. Momma needs to spank everyone involved on the knukles, with a ruler and stand them in the corner.

This site is becomming more and more like the lifetime channel.

[PLUMBER RICK]

This is the start of a good thread about to be closed. Momma needs to spank everyone involved on the knukles, with a ruler and stand them in the corner.

This site is becomming more and more like the lifetime channel.


you watch that too:eek:

does oprah know that:D

rick.

[gear junkie]

This is the start of a good thread about to be closed. Momma needs to spank everyone involved on the knukles, with a ruler and stand them in the corner.

This site is becomming more and more like the lifetime channel.
Robert, the more fronty writes the more I can see that his actions are inherit, he can't help them. Sylvia was a total loser because he chose to be. I don't believe fronty can control it. He needs psychological help. Would you pick on a retarded kid, of course not. A retarded child can't help the cards he was dealt anymore than Fronty can. He's just lashing out the only way he knows how. I have broad shoulders, I can take the abuse Fronty. Just please get help. I hope everyone sees where I'm coming from. Everyone needs help at some point in their life. Fronty needs help now.

Ben

[PLUMBER RICK]

since i've been somewhat quiet over all this:killingme:

how about both of you just ignore each other and let it go.

no more he said, she said:D

can't we all just get along:love:

please, we're going downhill fast.

rick.

[fronty]

since i've been somewhat quiet over all this:killingme:

how about both of you just ignore each other and let it go.

no more he said, she said:D

can't we all just get along:love:

please, we're going downhill fast.

rick.


Done.

I have done that for his last few posts. Every time I see his name/picture I just scroll right past it. It wastes too much time out of my life.

Rick, you are one of the most level headed people here. I appreciate all the help you have given me and help in the future.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Done.

I have done that for his last few posts. Every time I see his name/picture I just scroll right past it. It wastes too much time out of my life.

Rick, you are one of the most level headed people here. I appreciate all the help you have given me and help in the future.


well then you were not at the west coast gathering last night:killingme:

my wife and a few others would think otherwise:D

thanks for taking my lead and the same goes with ben;)

believe me i've been there done that. all you need to do is read back for 3 years.

if this went on any longer, i might have been de-throwned by the new guy:D

lets keep it clean and it will all wash over;)

just look at dog:running-dog: and i, we're going on a date soon:cool:

well maybe a threesome as joey wants to tag along:love:

thanks all.

rick.

[oldslowchevy]

EDIT: I went back and deleted all of my threads. This wasn't the proper venue to handle it. I should have contacted Josh the webmaster or called the police.


hummmm i wonder why someone that is so innocent would delete all of there threads??? now that makes no scents what so ever

[fronty]

hummmm i wonder why someone that is so innocent would delete all of there threads??? now that makes no scents what so ever

I deleted them because it wasn't the proper venue. I already said that. Please do not continue this.

[oldslowchevy]

I deleted them because it wasn't the proper venue. I already said that. Please do not continue this.

this is a free country and you will not be a dictator of what what i say or who i say it to.

this is an open fourm, an in an open fourm i am free to speak, responed, ask questions, and post civil commets to who ever i like.

now i asked a question, and because you do not like me you jumped right to the defensive yet again, now if you would have simply said .......

"I deleted them because it wasn't the proper venue."

...... i would not have felt the need to respone to your response because both my question and coment would have been answered, but then you added the last part witch set me off kilter.

this is not an atack on you, so please do not take it that way, it is just the way i feel.

[fronty]

this is a free country and you will not be a dictator of what what i say or who i say it to.

this is an open fourm, an in an open fourm i am free to speak, responed, ask questions, and post civil commets to who ever i like.

now i asked a question, and because you do not like me you jumped right to the defensive yet again, now if you would have simply said .......

"I deleted them because it wasn't the proper venue."

...... i would not have felt the need to respone to your response because both my question and coment would have been answered, but then you added the last part witch set me off kilter.

this is not an atack on you, so please do not take it that way, it is just the way i feel.

Nothing was meant by the last comment. I would like to not continue what has been going on. Your comment does nothing except further instigate a situation that persisted way too long. I also never said I dislike you. I think everyone is in agreement that this is over (this includes Ben and I).

[Josh]

Glad everyone is done with this one. This forum is still far more civil than any I have participated in and as the Admin I want to keep it that way.

as a wise man once said "Can't we all just get along"

http://img.timeinc.net/time/2007/la_riots/king_rodney.jpg

[DuckButter]

I'd really like to hear from the O/P about how it turned out.

[adamw]

I'd really like to hear from the O/P about how it turned out.

Waiting on a pro to be able to come out to put the Tank in.
I'm starting to wonder if I want to wait, and spend the $140 in labor it will cost me to have it put in.
Maybe I'll give it a go myself using compression fittings.

I'm also thinking about one of those recirculating systems and water detection/auto shut-off systems.

[DuckButter]

Adam, in lieu of your difficulty with the PRV, you may want to consider the fact that your water will be completely down until the soldering is done.
For us, it would be a fairly simple project...your call.

Also, glad the bickering didn't scare you off.

[adamw]

Adam, in lieu of your difficulty with the PRV, you may want to consider the fact that your water will be completely down until the soldering is done.
For us, it would be a fairly simple project...your call.

Also, glad the bickering didn't scare you off.

I own a few websites with forums and I know all about posts getting out of hand. However, on my sites, me and/or my moderators would have never let it get as far as it did here. I was staying out of it, especially since I don't know anyone here. IMO, they should have taken it to PM. It is one thing to take a thread off-topic, but to take it an off-topic fight is another. Plus, it only involved two people. No one else needed to be a part of it.

The only reason I had trouble with the PRV is because I didn't have the know-how and supplies. After getting advice here, armed with a pipe-wrench and crescent wrench I was able to overcome my first challenge in no time. Then my leak issues were resolved with a couple rounds of teflon tape and pipe dope. So, knowing these things now, I may have better luck with the tank. I know it is your profession and all, but if I can do it myself, I'd like to save the $140. I'm not putting you guys down, I'm just cheap. If I wasn't cheap, I probably would have never had to check out this forum in the first place. :rotflmao1:

[biscuit]

Whichever direction (hire it out or diy) you take, good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

Regards,

[DuckButter]

I know it is your profession and all, but if I can do it myself, I'd like to save the $140. I'm not putting you guys down, I'm just cheap. If I wasn't cheap, I probably would have never had to check out this forum in the first place. :rotflmao1:
Now, I know you were kidding, but this illustrates part of my angst with freebie online DIY requests.
For all the paid advertizing that affords me calls with comments like "I can do this myself, but wondering what you'd charge." - Or the calls from people asking a lot of questions about what stock I use and how I do the work...taking 10-15 or more of my time trying to pick my brain..all at my time & expense...I hope you can understand my reservations.
Things are slow right now for the trades in general..the humorous irony comes to mind that with the extra time on our hands, how many guys are in another forum hundreds or thousands of miles from me helping a guy I gave a free estimate to this month?
Then there's the requests for gas work, or major work that would be rediculously inefficient to walk someone through online, with too many minute details that could be missed, creating potentially life threatening conditions.
As for your dilemma, it's no life threatening task, worst case your without a shower for a night or two.

[Ruudacguy]

Now, I know you were kidding, but this illustrates part of my angst with freebie online DIY requests.
For all the paid advertizing that affords me calls with comments like "I can do this myself, but wondering what you'd charge." - Or the calls from people asking a lot of questions about what stock I use and how I do the work...taking 10-15 or more of my time trying to pick my brain..all at my time & expense...I hope you can understand my reservations.
Things are slow right now for the trades in general..the humorous irony comes to mind that with the extra time on our hands, how many guys are in another forum hundreds or thousands of miles from me helping a guy I gave a free estimate to this month?
Then there's the requests for gas work, or major work that would be rediculously inefficient to walk someone through online, with too many minute details that could be missed, creating potentially life threatening conditions.
As for your dilemma, it's no life threatening task, worst case your without a shower for a night or two.

Duck, do you really think the advice offered on this forum and others like it is worth one eleventy-million'th of a percent of the total work out there? Not trying to argue, I just dont see the harm in offering advice.

[saysflushable]

Just read this Thread.

If it was my house the water heater would be shut off until it is fixed.
I've seen the aftermath of an exploded W/H. The CPVC water pipe ruptured before the W/H in 2 instances. 1 had galvinized pipe going to it---not pretty---. None of the water heaters had pressure relief valves.
I understand your relief valve is new and working fine but why take the chance.

Just a thought
Saysflushable

[DuckButter]

Duck, do you really think the advice offered on this forum and others like it is worth one eleventy-million'th of a percent of the total work out there? Not trying to argue, I just dont see the harm in offering advice.
I agree, just an attempt to put things from my perspective.
The point I made about more dangerous work stands though..you have seen more than your share of homeowners that swear by their credentials, all to see a trainwreck in work they'd done and then stand there and try to explain it has to be redone, as they seem convinced you're looking to make more money.
The trades in general are incredibly easy to underestimate.
Even for us at times...first few estimates on larger jobs quickly teaches us to remember the time & difficulty involved in particular tasks...even we tend to forget when it's on paper.

[DuckButter]

Just read this Thread.

If it was my house the water heater would be shut off until it is fixed......
Just a thought
Saysflushable
100% with that thought, seemed like pulling teeth just to get him to add the new T&P though.
Really freaked me when the HD guy took precidence, but his confusion was understandable.

[Ruudacguy]

The point I made about more dangerous work stands though..you have seen more than your share of homeowners that swear by their credentials, all to see a trainwreck in work they'd done and then stand there and try to explain it has to be redone, as they seem convinced you're looking to make more money.


I have seen plenty of that. I see it less and less though as my new customer list decreases every year I am in business. I dont turn down all 'new' work that calls, but just like you, I can tell whether or not I should schedule a call with that person within 5 minutes of talking to them.

More to the point of the DIY threads, I like them. It forces everybody to think, and if everyone isnt learning something, they should be. I consider myself and above average Tech, and installer, and I still learn new stuff in the HVAC forum. I learn ALOT in the plumbing forums. Nothing I can ever apply, but atleast I have the knowledge.

One thing I do learn in about 95% of the DIY threads: The OP's would have spent less money to hire a local plumber to fix their problem, instead of "throwing parts" at their systems. NOT because of bad advice from the forum members, but of because bad descriptions of their own problems.

[westcoastplumber]

I can only say that properly installing a expansion tank and making sure that indeed that was your problem, is alot harder then fixing a leak on a PRV.

For $140.00, it does not seem smart to risk a flood in your basement, which will cost you more in the long run. The water being off for a night or two isn't even worth the $140.00.

I have become sympathetic to customers on tight budgets and have lowered my costs to take care of some of them, I believe the customer is not the blame of all this, the economy and the government have alot to do with us losing our work to not only DIY'ers, but also illegals.

Not only plumbing, but electrical, gardening, painting, framing, tile, drywall, every trade is suffering because of the "influx" and no one will believe it until it is to late.

Sadly, people cannot afford to get a Qualified, Knowledgable service tech who does a quality job, and whats worse is their house is their largest investment.

[drtyhands]

Now, I know you were kidding, but this illustrates part of my angst with freebie online DIY requests.
For all the paid advertizing that affords me calls with comments like "I can do this myself, but wondering what you'd charge." - Or the calls from people asking a lot of questions about what stock I use and how I do the work...taking 10-15 or more of my time trying to pick my brain..all at my time & expense...I hope you can understand my reservations.
Things are slow right now for the trades in general..the humorous irony comes to mind that with the extra time on our hands, how many guys are in another forum hundreds or thousands of miles from me helping a guy I gave a free estimate to this month?
Then there's the requests for gas work, or major work that would be rediculously inefficient to walk someone through online, with too many minute details that could be missed, creating potentially life threatening conditions.
As for your dilemma, it's no life threatening task, worst case your without a shower for a night or two.So I guess this means you won't be wearing your "Ridgid Forum" hat to the county fair.

[DuckButter]

So I guess this means you won't be wearing your "Ridgid Forum" hat to the county fair.
No problem with the Ridgid forum at all...just going on and on and on about my rationale for a pro only forum..and on, and on.
Many of my tools have the Ridgid name on them, the ones that are good...doesn't mean I'm a walking billboard for them.

[drtyhands]

No problem with the Ridgid forum at all...just going on and on and on about my rationale for a pro only forum..and on, and on.
Many of my tools have the Ridgid name on them, the ones that are good...doesn't mean I'm a walking billboard for them.
I'm just teasing ya.I know how much you honor Ridgid.

[adamw]

I can only say that properly installing a expansion tank and making sure that indeed that was your problem, is alot harder then fixing a leak on a PRV.

For $140.00, it does not seem smart to risk a flood in your basement, which will cost you more in the long run. The water being off for a night or two isn't even worth the $140.00.
I called 5 plubmers on Friday...
Got one on the phone immediately. He set an estimate appointment for me for that night. He showed up, albeit 20 minutes late. He seemed very knowledgable, reasonable, willing and able. Said he'd get back to me Monday with an estimate. Said he wouldn't be able to do the work until late this week or sometime next week. Haven't heard from him yet with the estimate. Just called him. He sounded really wishy washy. Saying he has yet to complete the estimate. Said he'd call me tomorrow.
Got a call back from another another guy last night. Gave me a rough estimate over the phone. Said he couldn't come till late NEXT week. Said I'd call him back after talking to the wife. Plus I wanted to wait to hear back from the first guy.
The other 3 have not returned my message.

At this point, sounds like I have two guys to choose from. I'm leaning toward the 2nd guy. If the first one is in no hurry to get the estimate too me, I guess he's in no hurry for the work. I, however, am in a hurry to get this resolved!


I have become sympathetic to customers on tight budgets and have lowered my costs to take care of some of them, I believe the customer is not the blame of all this, the economy and the government have alot to do with us losing our work to not only DIY'ers, but also illegals.


You could probably also blame the big box stores. They make even the dumbest people feel like they can DIY. Their bad advise doesn't help, either.

[DuckButter]

Adam...you gotta be kidding me!
If a guy has to stop by and scope something as simple as installing an expansion tank...then sit down and do the math...thats not knowledgeable or experienced.
I wouldn't make the effort to stop by...frankly it's too small to make it a 2 trip ordeal.
If I had stopped by, it would be in and over with...weird to not take the 45min -1 hr to do it while there, if he knew what he was coming to look at.

[adamw]

Adam...you gotta be kidding me!
If a guy has to stop by and scope something as simple as installing an expansion tank...then sit down and do the math...thats not knowledgeable or experienced.
I wouldn't make the effort to stop by...frankly it's too small to make it a 2 trip ordeal.
If I had stopped by, it would be in and over with...weird to not take the 45min -1 hr to do it while there, if he knew what he was coming to look at.
Actually, he didn't know about the pressure issue. As of Friday morning, I was calling around for estimates on a tankless system. When this guy got out, I talked to him about all my other issues too. So we actualy discuessed a few things: Changing the T&P (which I already did now), adding an expansion tank, moving the unit about 2 feet, and putting a pan under it. He said he still has to get a price on the pan.
The guy that called me last night was able to give me an estimate on the phone for the expansion tank. $140 (labor only).

[DuckButter]

You could probably also blame the big box stores. They make even the dumbest people feel like they can DIY. Their bad advise doesn't help, either.
Imagine a "programmers bargain outlet" that sold compilers, editors and full DIY "professional" quality programming quicky tutorials along with top notch advice on programming.

Then you get calls from mystified customers with blank looks who can't figure out where the 5 thousand syntax errors are, as they explain "It's almost done...shouldn't take you long... shouldn't cost that much...right?"

[westcoastplumber]

Well, I am sorry you are having so much trouble with getting the help you need.

I make it a point to get the customer estimates within 24 hrs, and also, if I am not able to, give them a courtesy call to make sure they know I am on it.

Sucks that professionals are treating their customers this way.

[PLUMBER RICK]

100% with that thought, seemed like pulling teeth just to get him to add the new T&P though.
Really freaked me when the HD guy took precidence, but his confusion was understandable.

pulling teeth and hair.

I called 5 plubmers on Friday...
Got one on the phone immediately. He set an estimate appointment for me for that night. He showed up, albeit 20 minutes late. He seemed very knowledgable, reasonable, willing and able. Said he'd get back to me Monday with an estimate. Said he wouldn't be able to do the work until late this week or sometime next week. Haven't heard from him yet with the estimate. Just called him. He sounded really wishy washy. Saying he has yet to complete the estimate. Said he'd call me tomorrow.
Got a call back from another another guy last night. Gave me a rough estimate over the phone. Said he couldn't come till late NEXT week. Said I'd call him back after talking to the wife. Plus I wanted to wait to hear back from the first guy.
The other 3 have not returned my message.

At this point, sounds like I have two guys to choose from. I'm leaning toward the 2nd guy. If the first one is in no hurry to get the estimate too me, I guess he's in no hurry for the work. I, however, am in a hurry to get this resolved!



You could probably also blame the big box stores. They make even the dumbest people feel like they can DIY. Their bad advise doesn't help, either.

what was wrong with our advise? before you spent more time and money on a regulator that you didn't need and didn't fix your problem:confused:

Adam...you gotta be kidding me!
If a guy has to stop by and scope something as simple as installing an expansion tank...then sit down and do the math...thats not knowledgeable or experienced.
I wouldn't make the effort to stop by...frankly it's too small to make it a 2 trip ordeal.
If I had stopped by, it would be in and over with...weird to not take the 45min -1 hr to do it while there, if he knew what he was coming to look at.

i too would have one on my truck and have it installed faster and cheaper than coming back later. nothing more than a 3/4'' tee and a fip. along with a ball valve for just in case when it ruptures down the road.

the time you spent on research, shopping/ parts, errors and everything else, what do you think you saved? sure you learned a lot, and got a good lesson, but it's like in your line of work you can't afford $140.00.

i do my own work on my work truck too. it's not because i can't afford it. it's because i can't have the downtime and i can do it on my own schedule.

even if it's on a sunday.

in your case, you had a serious issue that could have flooded as it did with the filter, or could have been worse with the bad relief valve.

why didn't the guy who replaced your filter come back to find and fix the real issue?

rick.

[adamw]

why didn't the guy who replaced your filter come back to find and fix the real issue?

rick.

Cause I called him multiple times about it, he kept saying he would stop back to check the pressure again and/or call me back to set up a time to check it out and never did. I called him 3 times about it. He never followed through.

[JayH]

Rather than starting a new topic on the same subject, I figured I would add it here...

Symptoms -

High Pressure on Cold Water side AFTER hotwater heater has cycled - (~180-200psi, according to the HD guage)
Initially had toilets running randomly - replace guts
Had a saddle valve give up the ghost (1st laundry room flooding) - Replace the pipe that was on. The saddle valve was for a whole house water heater, has not been hooked back up.
Water Filter blew out (yesterday) making second laundry room flood


Corrective actions - to date

Replaced line that saddle valve was on.
Removed the Water Filter from the line by installing a straight thru pipe


Actions Need to be taken
- This is based on the information found within this thread.

Replace PRV on Hot Water Heater, tested this today and when i extend the lever out, there is no water or air coming out - no noise.
Install Expansion Tank on Hot Water Heater side (cold) of the Pressure Regulator.


The house was built in 2001 and I'm the second owner. There were no water line modifications by the original owners. I installed a Water Filter and the whole house humidifier 2 years ago. This issue began this winter with the ground water temp running about 55f. I know the city I live in has made some modifications to add another housing development off the main line, but I don't think that should have an impact all the way down to my house level. I'm just interested in why this would begin to happen all the sudden, because the weakest link has been breaking and I have been fixing them?

We had a neighbor 2 doors down have their refrigerator water line burst on them (which IMHO) would be the weakest link the original plumbing setup. I did not ask is they had an expansion tank installed or if they found the source of the problem, they have since moved.

I am suspicious of the Pressure Regulator (WATT) that is within the house, but the water pressure is not high when the hot water heater is cycling - normal pressure is about 65psi - which is within spec's valve.

Anyway - anyone want to provide some feedback on the path I'm going down and if there is anything anyone else can thing of? Oh yea - I want to ask is anyone has an opinion on the "SharkBite" Fast Push-Fit Connections that HD is selling? I have used them in the past two repairs and I have not had any issues with leaking, they feel very solid. I am okay with soldering and have a mixed CPVC and Copper piping where the problems are working and the expansion tank are going to be installed. I know they cost more, but I don't want to have to go replacing these things in a couple of months - any opinions?

Thanks for the reading the long winded and rambeling post :)
-Jay

[JayH]

Rather than starting a new topic on the same subject, I figured I would add it here...

Symptoms -

High Pressure on Cold Water side AFTER hotwater heater has cycled - (~180-200psi, according to the HD guage)
Initially had toilets running randomly - replace guts
Had a saddle valve give up the ghost (1st laundry room flooding) - Replace the pipe that was on. The saddle valve was for a whole house water heater, has not been hooked back up.
Water Filter blew out (yesterday) making second laundry room flood


Corrective actions - to date

Replaced line that saddle valve was on.
Removed the Water Filter from the line by installing a straight thru pipe


Actions Need to be taken
- This is based on the information found within this thread.

Replace PRV on Hot Water Heater, tested this today and when i extend the lever out, there is no water or air coming out - no noise.
Install Expansion Tank on Hot Water Heater side (cold) of the Pressure Regulator.




Well - completed the Actions to be taken...

Hot Water Pressure relieve valve was broken - new one works after testing.

The expansion tank was pretty easy as well - thread it on and go. I went with the 4.5gallon tank as my incoming water pressure is about 65 and I have a 55g water heater. Using their little graph on the side of the box said to get that size, so I did.

Everything is connected with those shark-bite connectors, with make life SO easy - but I'm still looking of opinions on them.

-Jay

[DuckButter]

You neighbors ice maker line arouses concern.
I doubt the line itself ruptured, unless it was poly.
The smaller the diameter on sched 40, the greater the pressure it can handle.
More likey a self piercing saddle valve was used, they're awful - sold at HD's & Lowes everywhere.
As for the Sharkbites...you'll be the best judge in a year or two as for how effective they are.
I won't use them on potable/high pressure...doesn't feel right making my customers guinea pigs.

[JayH]

You neighbors ice maker line arouses concern.
I doubt the line itself ruptured, unless it was poly.
The smaller the diameter on sched 40, the greater the pressure it can handle.
More likey a self piercing saddle valve was used, they're awful - sold at HD's & Lowes everywhere.


The fridges are what came with the house. Would new construction builders use saddle valves? Just wondering because if so, I'm pull my fridge out to replace the damn thing!

-Jay

[PLUMBER RICK]

jay, glad you found this thread as there is a lot of info here that would have o be repeated otherwise.

the main water pressure befrore the regulator is what psi? is there a backflow preventer or check valve on the system?

these are the 2 key issues i need to know to answer your question of why now;)

as far as shark bite. i am a big supporter and use them when needed.
i also own and support propress and a lot here are still skeptical.

answer the 2 questions and i will give you the answer you want;)

thanks for doing your search, research.

rick.

[JayH]

j
the main water pressure befrore the regulator is what psi? is there a backflow preventer or check valve on the system?


I'm not sure how to check the PSI before the regulator, as both of my outside faucets are after the Pressure Regulator. I'll look around my outside meter for a testable location or if that info is on the meter itself.

As far as a backflow/check valve - my guess would be that is built within the pressure regulator, inside the house.

Not sure if guesses count as answers :)

-Jay

[PLUMBER RICK]

I'm not sure how to check the PSI before the regulator, as both of my outside faucets are after the Pressure Regulator. I'll look around my outside meter for a testable location or if that info is on the meter itself.

As far as a backflow/check valve - my guess would be that is built within the pressure regulator, inside the house.

Not sure if guesses count as answers :)

-Jay

you can check with your water supplier for the high pressure side or see if a neighbor at the same elevation has a high pressure hose bibb and test there.

water pressure will drop approx. 1/2# (.48) per foot of elevation. so don't go looking at the house at the top of hill or the bottom. look at the same elevation.

the back flow preventer might be at the meter outlet. see the pictures earlier in this thread. also the water provider should know if you have meter protection.

guesses don't count, unless you want me to guess at your answers:D

[westcoastplumber]

We had a huge discussion on sharkbites at the supply house, about 15 of us or so, and almost everyone agreed they are good for one thing, T&P lines:D

fast and non pressure. Overall, sharbites are junk and we will find this out in 10-20 years.

Propress and sharkbite are 2 totally different technologies and should no tbe compared. Pressing a fitting is much better then sliding a fitting into place, pipe expands and contracts and so will the teeth and the rubber o-ring, sharbites will fail.

Our conversation involved plumbers from me, being the youngest, to guys between 30-45, oh yeah and one 23 year old new construction guy.

Let us know they work out, I would have went compression fittings before sharkbite, as long as it is exposed.

Hope you noted the date of installation and initials :p;) (rick)

[Bob D.]

For the rest of the story go here:

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15241