confusing recirculating hot water/sediment

[rcatty]

I have been in this house for 10 years. I am on a well, and have two hot water tanks set up to work in parallel. I am getting a sediment discharge in my hot water, only from my upstairs faucets and showers. The hot water tanks were extremly dirty and it took several drainings and flushings to clear most of the debris. Apparently, I have a recirculating system, as I notice copper pipes entering the drain valves at the bottom of the tank. I see no pumps anywhere on the system, nor have I heard anything "pumping" since I have been in this house. The recirculating pipes branch off in two opposite directions to either side of the house. The recirculating system seems to work fairly well on one side of the house (although lately nowhere as good as in the past). I see no positive results on the other side of the house, where I traced that circulating line. Indeed that side of the house, be it upstairs or downstairs, never showed any benefits of instant hot water.



The recirculating lines are very hot for about 10-15 feet as they join the bottom of the hot water tanks. I see no check valve anywhere. I suspect I am getting backflow up the recirculating pipes with hot water off the bottom of the tanks. Is it possible that sediment off the bottom of the tank could be pushed up to my second floor faucets via the recirculating lines causing the sediment discharge? The upstairs faucets in the master bathroom with the fastest hot water, discharge the most debris. However, in a second upstairs bathroom there is discharge from one sink faucet and the bathtub faucet (the instant hot water, if installed in both faucets works poorly, if at all). Interestingly, I see no discharge from the second sink faucet in that bathroom. A third bathroom upstairs discharges in a similar fashion to this latter bathroom, but the instant hot water appears to work (this is on the same side of the house as the master bathroom, and must feed off the same branch of that end of the recirculator. The other bathroom, that works poorly, if at all, is at the far end of the house and has a long (25-50 foot) horizontal run to the water heater. I don't see how that could work properly on a gravity based system ? In summary, how do I stop this sediment discharge, and secondarily, how do I fix my recirculating system on the other side of the house? Thank you

[gear junkie]

Can you post lots of pics so we can offer the best help? Take pics of everything, even if you think it's unimportant.

[drtyhands]

There is a possibilility that your house was designed with a gravity feed recirc system,that may be why you don't see a pump.These systems still use check valves.Sounds like your second bath's hot supply branch is too far off the "loop".

Your sediment problem.....What does sediment look like?
If it was my house,I at first thought would,flush the water heaters.Any other similar symptoms with the houses in your area.

[westcoastplumber]

Pictures would be great. I agree with Adam, sounds like a gravity feed loop, remember the drawing on the napkin at the cheesecake factory adam?? in thousand oaks?? steves gravity loop?

Does the line run all the way up to the attic and go back down?? The loop won't work unless it goes goes up to the attic and back down the walls.

As far as the sediment, you being on a well is a very good reason to install a filter system.

[drtyhands]

Pictures would be great. I agree with Adam, sounds like a gravity feed loop, remember the drawing on the napkin at the cheesecake factory adam?? in thousand oaks?? steves gravity loop?

Does the line run all the way up to the attic and go back down?? The loop won't work unless it goes goes up to the attic and back down the walls.

As far as the sediment, you being on a well is a very good reason to install a filter system.
This raises the issue of the pheonominon of forum cross over.Many things that happen with the forum happen in my daily travels,many things that happen in my travels are discussed within a short period thereafter.

I mention speeding on the forum,I get pulled over and get a warning.

Steve educates me on gravity loops,a few weeks later a friend tells me he finds a natural one when his pump fails.

Rick works on a house down the street from one that I am on the day before I get there 30 miles from my house.

There are many,many others.The freaky coincidences are uncanny.

[rcatty]

First, I have no idea where the recirculating pipes run. I did not install the system. In fact, I had no idea there was a recirculating system until I read something on a board, and saw the pipes in the bottom of the drain valves. I always noticed that my hot water worked great in my master bathroom, but never knew why. Now I realize I must have some type of recirculating system. I can trace the pipes to the end of my basement, and then the one pipe disappears going upstairs, the other pipe disappears into a built in shelving/storage system at the far end of the house. I have never seen water pipes up in the attic. The system works fine in my master bathroom, and is non existent on the other end of the house. My biggest concern is the sediment that discharges through the hot water on the second floor. Can this be from a backflow problem ? I see no checkvalves anywhere, nor do I see/hear any pumps.

[rcatty]

the sediment is small/tiny black bits. Why none of this from my first floor supply faucets?

[westcoastplumber]

Pictures would be great.

As far as thge sediment, you need a filter on the incomming house line, then flush the system again, and your problem will go away.

If you indeed do have a gravity feed recirculation loop, the sediment will exit the bottom of the tank and be feed into the water system.

I believe a filter is your best bet...anyone else??

[rcatty]

I flushed/drained the tank several times , but this had no effect on the sediment in the upstairs hot water.

[rcatty]

Westcoast plumber: will the sediment leave the bottom of the tanks via the recirculating lines and work itself all the way up to the upstairs faucets or is it somehow entering the second floor lines and contaminating the hot water lines?

[westcoastplumber]

Westcoast plumber: will the sediment leave the bottom of the tanks via the recirculating lines and work itself all the way up to the upstairs faucets or is it somehow entering the second floor lines and contaminating the hot water lines?


Technically the loop should be tied tot he farthest fixture, so if your upstairs faucet is at the furthest point from the tanks, yes.

[rcatty]

So does it sound like the sediment is a product of the recirculation line, via a backflow problem ? When I turn on my hot water faucet could the water be drawn from the recirculating line rather than the correct hot water supply line? Is there a way to troubleshoot this?

[westcoastplumber]

Your sediment is from the tank build up, possible dip tube, nasty water, possible galvanized in the system, do you have a picture of the sediment?

possible problems with the fixture?? any one of these can cause sediment

Need pictures to truly give an accurate answer. I believe the sediment is from the well, the sediment location is caused by the gravity loop, really, truly need pics of the sediment and the tank set up.

[westcoastplumber]

So does it sound like the sediment is a product of the recirculation line, via a backflow problem ? When I turn on my hot water faucet could the water be drawn from the recirculating line rather than the correct hot water supply line? Is there a way to troubleshoot this?


The only way the water can be directly taken from the recirculation loop is if for some reason the main feed was closed, do to a closed check valve or gate valve. very highly not possible though.

A circulation loop is just a return line for the hot water, makes a complete circle back to the water heater, instead of an ending point at the last fiuxture.

way to test, close the 1/2" line coming from the bottom of the tanks, hopefully there are isolation valves, and then turn the water on at the fixtures.

[drtyhands]

Ratty,I think your hot is drawing off the line at the bottom of the tanks.

Need a check valve on it.All tanks have sediment.You can flush the tanks today into a bucket and tell us what you find.When they plumbed it I hope they left you a drain spigot/hose bib.

Pictures of piping?

[DuckButter]

Ratty,I think your hot is drawing off the line at the bottom of the tanks.

Need a check valve on it.All tanks have sediment.You can flush the tanks today into a bucket and tell us what you find.When they plumbed it I hope they left you a drain spigot/hose bib.

Pictures of piping?
I think you got it, plus when he flushes the tank he's prolly getting a large amount of water from the line as well as the tank...meaning his flushing isn't as effective....defintely needs a check valve.

[plumberscrack]

I leave swing checks out of gravity circulation lines. I do install 2 isolation valves in case someone wants to add a pump later. I'm not sure the weight of cold water will push past a swing check:confused: Gravity circ. is easy here with rowhouses. All of the bathrooms are stacked over each other.

[drtyhands]

I leave swing checks out of gravity circulation lines. I do install 2 isolation valves in case someone wants to add a pump later. I'm not sure the weight of cold water will push past a swing check:confused: Gravity circ. is easy here with rowhouses. All of the bathrooms are stacked over each other.
Because his system is not working properly at this time I'm thinking the check valve.

There is the fact that I left out on purpose that it is Steve's little trick with the check.I'll let it go awhile till I know it's O/K for me or someone with his permission to say something.I think it may help our O/P.

[drtyhands]

I leave swing checks out of gravity circulation lines. I do install 2 isolation valves in case someone wants to add a pump later. I'm not sure the weight of cold water will push past a swing check:confused: Gravity circ. is easy here with rowhouses. All of the bathrooms are stacked over each other.

WHY ARE YOU SITTING IN A HOTEL 100'S OF MILES FROM YOU HOME ON A COMPUTER?????

GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND SHOW YOUR LADY CALIFORNIA!!!!!


GO TOUCH TONGUES WITH A WHALE OR SOMETHING.

:nyaa-nyaa4:

[rcatty]

I thought of trying to turn off the recirculation lines but there are no shut off valves on those lines. The lines are soldered into a nipple on the drain valve stem.

After some testing this morning, it is clear that the recirculating system does not work on the far side of the house. It does work on the side closest to the water heaters.

Most of the discharge occurs in the master bathroom sink immediately after the hot water valve is closed. That is to say that once I turn off the hot water, a few drops filled with sediment will drip out. I am wondering if once the hot water is turned off the backflow has an immediate chance to push past the now turned off faucet to drip out ?

What do you want pictures of...I will get, and how do I upload the pictures to you??

[drtyhands]

A wide angle including the heater,hot outlet and recirc,hopefully all in one shot.

Yep,I had a feeling there would not be anything at the bottom.Do they at least have something at the bottom so you can flush the tanks?

[rcatty]

it wont let me upload pics...says my pic file is too large

[rcatty]

there is the standard drain valve that I can hook my hose to......but the recirl pipe is on this stem, and is soldered in. I have pics but how do I post as They say my file size is too large

[drtyhands]

We have to wait for the others to help us.I am a computer idiot.

[ToUtahNow]

there is the standard drain valve that I can hook my hose to......but the recirl pipe is on this stem, and is soldered in. I have pics but how do I post as They say my file size is too large

You need to resize your photos. Here is a link to a free download of the program I've used over the last few years.

http://bluefive.pair.com/pixresizer.htm

It is a very user friendly program.

Mark

[DuckButter]

I leave swing checks out of gravity circulation lines. I do install 2 isolation valves in case someone wants to add a pump later. I'm not sure the weight of cold water will push past a swing check:confused: Gravity circ. is easy here with rowhouses. All of the bathrooms are stacked over each other.

Good chance it would slow it down, but from what Rcatty says, it barely works as is.
On top of that, seems to have become a counterproductive detriment with the sediment issue.

[DuckButter]

I think you got it, plus when he flushes the tank he's prolly getting a large amount of water from the line as well as the tank...meaning his flushing isn't as effective....defintely needs a check valve.

After reading this, wanted to be clear...I didn't intend to sound like a check would do anything for aiding with flushing the tank.
Personally, I'd probably put in a circ, or eliminate it altogether.

[drtyhands]

How much does cold weather affect a gravity system if the supply riser is on an exterior wall?

I'm trying to figure out how the system is not working properly.

I don't think that furthest bathroom is ever going to be part of this system with a pump and check valve.Which may be what is going to have to be installed,along with some way to flush the tanks.based on the information as I understand it now.

I can't beleive a plumber left the tanks with no way to drain.Recirc tied into the stem? Very confusing instalation.

Mark,
Maybe your new N.O.R.A.D. supercomputer has a crystal ball program you can run on this:eek:

[DuckButter]

I betcha the circ line is split.
He says one side of the house works, the other doesn't.
If it is split, then the shortest loop is going to over-ride the longer.
Explains why he says it works well on the side nearest the heater...I also bet there's no limiting or control valve, like a circuit setter on either split.

[westcoastplumber]

Maybe a check valve??? the stem??? Really need pics!!! pics would answer all our questions, I am sure.

Take pics of this sediment also.

[rcatty]

Here are some of the pics; special thanks to the member who pointed me to the downsizing software.....

[rcatty]

additional pics

[rcatty]

more pics

[DuckButter]

On the two recirc lines that connect to eachother, then a single 3/4" line goes straight up...does that line split in two directions above?

[westcoastplumber]

On the two recirc lines that connect to eachother, then a single 3/4" line goes straight up...does that line split in two directions above?


It looks like they split off at the second picture, the one with the insulation.

The debris looks alittle like rust from a tank, it could also be from the copper pipe. Who put pepper in your hot water tank??

I would cut the line after the tee, above the water heaters, where it goes to one line, install a ball valve, it is very easy to do this right there, and shut it down, see if you have hot water pressure, see what changes, if the sediment stops, you found your problem. your out nothing because you should have these isolated anyways.

[DuckButter]

It looks like they split off at the second picture, the one with the insulation.

The debris looks alittle like rust from a tank, it could also be from the copper pipe. Who put pepper in your hot water tank??

I would cut the line after the tee, above the water heaters, where it goes to one line, install a ball valve, it is very easy to do this right there, and shut it down, see if you have hot water pressure, see what changes, if the sediment stops, you found your problem. your out nothing because you should have these isolated anyways.

Why not just put a check then?
Needs to be on the horizontal, so he'd have to add an offset, but that would still allow it to "possibly" function.

I think thats what you meant..I think.

[westcoastplumber]

Why not just put a check then?
Needs to be on the horizontal, so he'd have to add an offset, but that would still allow it to "possibly" function.

I think thats what you meant..I think.



Your in hiding ducky!!!! invisable opinions don't count:p

Ok then, add a check and a ball valve, either way, there needs to be a ball valve on there, it is a must.

A check is a great idea, easy to install and cheap, when you install it with the ball valve, at the same time.

a 3/4 ball valve, a 3/4 check valve, a little section of type L pipe, maybe a coupleing if you can't move the pipe a bit.

[rcatty]

picture dsc o71 shows where the two lines split. That is after several bends and about 10 linear feet from the drain valve hook-up.

Ok, so what do I need, and where?

Thanx for your help, I really appreciate it!

[myakka]

Add a ball valve to each side to isolate/balance the two recirc. lines befor they tie together(http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2503&d=1199663057)
add aball valve to each side to isolate the two tanks, when they split to tie into the bottom of the tank.(http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2499&d=1199662574)
the sediment is most likely the tanks or the nipples on top of the tanks.
Just my opinion
Mike

[rcatty]

The ball valve functions as a shut-off valve...correct? Does that go on the vertical line up after the initial tee and before the line bends to a horizontal?

The check valve would have to go on a horizontal ? How far up the line from the initial bend to a horizontal ?

Thank you

[drtyhands]

We already know that it is in the hot no/yes?

A ball valve on each water heater hot riser so if one goes out he does not loose hot water entirely I suggest.

A ball valve on the 1" combination riser? What are we trying to accomplish with this.

[drtyhands]

rcatty,have you flushed out the heaters yet to see if the sediment output decreases out of the faucets.

The system could still be drawing out of recirc return line.

Let the copper cool down.turn the faucet on like you would normally which pipe gets hotter supply or return,give it some time,a couple of minutes should tell you a difference.

I'm looking to maybe putting a ball valve,union and check with a modification on the return.

[westcoastplumber]

We already know that it is in the hot no/yes?

A ball valve on each water heater hot riser so if one goes out he does not loose hot water entirely I suggest.

A ball valve on the 1" combination riser? What are we trying to accomplish with this.


I figured 1 ball valve, where the line ties toghether, above the tee. Now that you mention it, maybe 2 would be good, 1 for each, right off the top of the tee, at the bottom of the water heater, so when one or the other water g
goes out, you can isolate it, and also isolate it to complete this test.

No need for three ball valves on the system, either one after the 2 lines tie in, or 2 att he bottom of the heaters, to isolate each instead of both at the same time.

I don't think this is 1", it looks like 3/4 and 1/2

[DuckButter]

Your in hiding ducky!!!! invisable opinions don't count:p

It's all good till ya get 5 PM's because someone thinks your around when you fell asleep logged in...weighing the lesser of two evils...might switch back.

[drtyhands]

The ball valve functions as a shut-off valve...correct? Does that go on the vertical line up after the initial tee and before the line bends to a horizontal?

The check valve would have to go on a horizontal ? How far up the line from the initial bend to a horizontal ?

Thank you
The check valve is going to be modified by drilling an 1/8" hole in the swinging internal flapper.This is the Modification that the plumber has allowed me to post.This is going to be installed on the return.horizontally as close to the now inlet of the heater.

[drtyhands]

Robert your confusing me.The only1/2" I see is a 1" piece on the recirc tee.Is there 1/2 up on the outlets/inlets on top of the heaters.

[drtyhands]

I figured 1 ball valve, where the line ties toghether, above the tee. Now that you mention it, maybe 2 would be good, 1 for each, right off the top of the tee, at the bottom of the water heater, so when one or the other water g
goes out, you can isolate it, and also isolate it to complete this test.

No need for three ball valves on the system, either one after the 2 lines tie in, or 2 att he bottom of the heaters, to isolate each instead of both at the same time.

I don't think this is 1", it looks like 3/4 and 1/2

Because we are troubleshooting and re-routing,the ball valve on the recirc to assist troubleshooting and future servicing of the check valve.

[DuckButter]

Communicating plumbing online almost always becomes a "Who's on first" chat...LOL.
I think what we all agree on are three things...
1-Ball valve at the single vertical line to be able to isolate the tanks for replacement.
2-Check valve(s) to stop incoming debri's from travelling to fixtures.
3-Two seperate valves on each split to regulate flow and even it out to both sides.

Hopefully that narrows it, until someone else pops in with another idea...aaarrggg!

[myakka]

I think i've been misunderstood. I am under the assumption that this picture(http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2503&d=1199663057) shows the reunification of a split recirc. line. I suggest installing ball valves as balancing valves, upstream, to improve the recirculation from the farthest bath. I don't understand the the recomendation of a 1" ball valve on the riser. Did I imply that?
Mike

[DuckButter]

I think i've been misunderstood. I am under the assumption that this picture(http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2503&d=1199663057) shows the reunification of a split recirc. line. I suggest installing ball valves as balancing valves, upstream, to improve the recirculation from the farthest bath. I don't understand the the recomendation of a 1" ball valve on the riser. Did I imply that?
Mike
I'm with you, a split circ should have some way to modify flow on each.
Robert (Westcoast) was the one to suggest the ball valve on the riser...not a bad idea, but I wonder if that'd be overkill with two valves on the same line further up now.

[drtyhands]

Communicating plumbing online almost always becomes a "Who's on first" chat...LOL.
I think what we all agree on are three things...
1-Ball valve at the single vertical line to be able to isolate the tanks for replacement.
2-Check valve(s) to stop incoming debri's from travelling to fixtures.
3-Two seperate valves on each split to regulate flow and even it out to both sides.

Hopefully that narrows it, until someone else pops in with another idea...aaarrggg!
aaaarrggg,I agree.The rest I don't,sorry.I'll let a better typer explain further.

[myakka]

I still recommend one ball valve for each tank after the recirc. line splits off to each tank( http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2499&d=1199662574)
Mike

[DuckButter]

I still recommend one ball valve for each tank after the recirc. line splits off to each tank( http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2499&d=1199662574)
Mike
Robert, Adam...there it is.
He got it...could just utilize the two horizontal lengths just above the return...put ball & checks on each, using Adams trick on the checks.
This whole thread got interesting..I just hope we didn't baffle the poor O/P !

[DuckButter]

Nix my last...looked at the photo's again, the hot supplies are twinned.
The valves would have to be after the split on either side.

[drtyhands]

Ricks friend Steve had a chance to view the pictures.He is the one who first introduced me to the gravity feed recirc.

He suggested a few things for this home.

1.return the recirc to one tank only(O/P's choice it does not matter)
2.ball valve at the bottom and modified check valve on return
3.hose bib above the lower ball valve.

#3 is to remove any "air lock" that may be in the system.If there is any air in the system it won't function.Close the ball valve below the hose bib and force any air out of the hose bib with the water heater under house pressure.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Ricks friend Steve had a chance to view the pictures.He is the one who first introduced me to the gravity feed recirc.

He suggested a few things for this home.

1.return the recirc to one tank only(O/P's choice it does not matter)
2.ball valve at the bottom and modified check valve on return
3.hose bib above the lower ball valve.

#3 is to remove any "air lock" that may be in the system.If there is any air in the system it won't function.Close the ball valve below the hose bib and force any air out of the hose bib with the water heater under house pressure.

adam, very good for runnig this all the way through;)

you're going from a ruff man to a serious service man:D

now all we have to do is get my buddy steve on line and then the fun will really start;)

5 of us had the pleasure to meet him last night at the west coast dinner party;) even though he wasn't there long with his wife as she came down with the flu? he still really enjoys the post i send him and the discussions i fill him in on.

he is looking forward to the battle of the titans in ohio. and our next dinner party. so you see, steve is not my other personality, but a real sharp long time service plumbing contractor and great friend;)

rick.

[myakka]

Very good Steve
Especially simplifying the line to one tank.
The boiler drains(2)will have to go upstream of the balancing valves to be effective in purging an airlock on the side of the return line with the greatest resistance/ airlock.
DuckButter
You and I both missed the purge valves. If I remember correctly, isolation valves and pruge valves are required, by Mass. code, at the top( where it's taken off of the highest fixture)and bottom of the recirc. line, as suggested by Steve.

[drtyhands]

Balancing valves this is the second time you guys have brought up the fact that you want them.There is only one loop/zone from what I can see.We do not have a pump,and a tee off one return line feeding two heaters.What is the theory behind the valves.

I have seen a plumber try to fix his mistake by putting valves on a one pump-two loop system.He was not having success last we spoke.

You guys work with gravity more on the East Coast,what's the skinny

[rcatty]

ok guys, so what is the bottom line ???? Check valves, ball valves, bibs....i'm a layperson....help !!

[DuckButter]

DuckButter
You and I both missed the purge valves. If I remember correctly, isolation valves and pruge valves are required, by Mass. code, at the top( where it's taken off of the highest fixture)and bottom of the recirc. line, as suggested by Steve.
Right on that, with all the no heat calls from air lock WITH circs..indeed we missed a wee detail.

[DuckButter]

This whole thread got interesting..I just hope we didn't baffle the poor O/P !

ok guys, so what is the bottom line ???? Check valves, ball valves, bibs....i'm a layperson....help !!

See...we confused the poor fella.

rcatty, we're going back and forth about the correct way to have this line piped so that ALL fixtures receive an equal amount of hot recirculation, along with resolving the sediment issue....the fact the recirc line splits throws a lil' wrench in the plans.
Bottom line, there needs to be two major things...a way to control each of the splits (valves to semi close to inhibit flow on one or the other), and a way to keep the recirc lines from allowing sediment from the borttom of the tanks to get to the fixtures (one way check valves).

[rcatty]

I can appreciate the difficulty here. My undestanding is that the ball valves are simple shut-off valves...is that correct? Where would they be positioned ?

The check-valves are for backflow....where should they be positioned ?

Finally the bib hose is to bled the system, where would that go ?

Thank you

[DuckButter]

Read Drtyhands post above regarding the three items.
Mindful the check valve(s) have to be installed horizontally on your setup. That makes it difficult to cover both sets of lines because available space on horizontal is limitied..you might consider putting one on each side near the split that feeds into the tank drains.
You also need a ball valve, with a drawoff (drain) above the ball valve, because air will build up in the upper portion of the recirc lines and cause it to cease flowing (no pump to push the air down..the only force that moves the recirc flow is lighter hot water rising above cold which falls back to the lower drains on the tanks)

Finally, you need a way to control flow where the recirc splits...the flow will favor the shortest split, which is likely why the only side that seems to work is the side nearest the heaters.

[DuckButter]

Balancing valves this is the second time you guys have brought up the fact that you want them.There is only one loop/zone from what I can see.We do not have a pump,and a tee off one return line feeding two heaters.What is the theory behind the valves.

I have seen a plumber try to fix his mistake by putting valves on a one pump-two loop system.He was not having success last we spoke.

You guys work with gravity more on the East Coast,what's the skinny
Unless I'm insane (very likely), there is a split.
on a split loop flow will always favor the path of least resistance.

[rcatty]

is the "draw off drain" the bib valve that the other fellow was talking about....to bled the lines?

What valve or mechanism is being used to "balance " the lines, so that the side that works is balanced to jump start the other side ?


How close can the check valves get to the point of entry at the drain discharge where the recirl lines connect to the drain spigot ?

[DuckButter]

is the "draw off drain" the bib valve that the other fellow was talking about....to bled the lines?
Yes

What valve or mechanism is being used to "balance " the lines, so that the side that works is balanced to jump start the other side ?
Seperate ball valves on each line after the split

How close can the check valves get to the point of entry at the drain discharge where the recirl lines connect to the drain spigot ?
Anywhere, as long as on the horizontal...but let the others chime in on that one.

[rcatty]

The two lines join about 15 linear feet from the tanks. I don't understand how the water from one line can flow into th etee that joins the other. If there is water in the second line would not it block or prevent water from comming into the line from the other recirculating line ?

On the other hand, on the side that is working properly there are several lines feeding into one line and that works ok. In other words fixture one has instant hot water, and so does fixtures 2-5. So room temperature water has to be returning giving me instant hot water. Hence several lines are working together without any "balancing" of the system (at least that I am aware of).

I suspect the second poorly, working line is a victim of lack of "good gravity". That line has a super long horizontal run from one side of the house to the other, before it makes a 90 degree turn, run another 15 horizontal feet before it meets the recirlulating line from the "good" side. Mind you at the point where it meets the other line, the recirl line from the tank is hot...thus you have "backflow" running all the way up there ( a good 15 linear feet). Under those circumstances, the hot water has to be blocking the flow of the room temp water trying to return. The hot water then flows up the tee, now on the route of the good line.

Frankly, I don't see how any of this works given the hot water back flow. When the hot backflow water meets the room temp return water what happens? Apparently, the room temp water finds it way to the bottom of the tank, overcoming the hot water backflow?

I'm confused?

[rcatty]

The ball valves; are they going up the system, after the two lines split off and go to their respectives sides of the house (aproximately 15 linear feet) , or at the immediate vertical pipes right after the tie in to the drain valves ?

[rcatty]

The bib valve would be placed "ahead" of the ball valve further up the lines toward the fixture?

[DuckButter]

The water in a water heaters tank is hotter on top, colder on bottom.
That temp difference should, in theory, be enough to trigger a flow in a gravity system.

[drtyhands]

So how did it turn out R.C.?

[rcatty]

i'm waiting on a plumber to come over and take a look....i'll update you as soo as I have his input....thanx for all your help

[drtyhands]

You sure made his job easy.Tell the Plumber to send the check to the Ridgid tool company,we have a bar-b-que to finance.