Uncomfortable Subject

[DUNBAR]

We all know what this is........











PAPERWORK
:crying::crying::crying:


I'll be the first to admit, almost like I'm in a AA meeting that I fail miserably at this side of the business.

You can give me post it notes, you can put it on my forehead, it doesn't matter

You can give me those neat little stackable shelves to put all your little paperwork items in, it doesn't matter.

You can give me pegboards/corkboards/dry erase boards, it doesn't matter


And still, I can take the time to write about it....still not do anything to help my cause. It's just like my truck; I can spend every day after work cleaning it up, by the end of the next day, it's trashed. Same goes with my paperwork, same goes with my shop.


Bottom line is every time I frequent the numerous sites I belong to, I really should be doing paperwork, doing follow-ups with my customers as that is what truly makes the wheels turn on the financial front.

This year I plan on going back into my records and cherry-picking customers that I feel I can continue a working relationship with, give them a nice coupon *minimum $15-$25* and drop a small sales pitch about my second business. Those numbers in discount don't bother me as I can make it up somehow or another. My intent is to get a really good established repeat business going which I feel is 2 years away from cutting the cords from some of the advertising I've been throwing the past few years. Some portals of advertising I'll never give up, like the ones involving sponsorships to schools, community events and the like. Damn I'm going off topic.


I wish I could kick my habit and be one of these neat freaks like I used to be years ago. I don't have a significant other to pawn the work off on; women can organize like I can plumb, but I can't do the reverse. Hats off to their ingenuity to perform those tasks because I'm as useless as t*ts on a fish when it comes to paperwork. Dr. Phil wanted nothing to do with me, I guess if he figured he couldn't make me cry there's no money in it for him.


So when I'm here, I'm avoiding paperwork like it's homework when I was in high school. A good CPA keeps me organized on the legal front completely. I would never do my own taxes knowing how risky that is. Too much money moving to have one mistake hit me like a brick years later because I forgot a zero or thought a 3 was a 6, or that 7 was an unlooped 2.

[ToUtahNow]

What a relief I was worried this was going to be another bidet thread.

Mark :smack-head:

[ToUtahNow]

I actually try to stay up on reports but I get really behind on my billings. I only bill once a month and I promised Brenda I am finally going to do my billings for October today.

Mark:help:

[DuckButter]

Dunbar,
Alotta sole props like us use software, with scheduling & reminder features.
I don't.
When I get a call, I immediately mapquest their address & copy the map to wordpad showing the nearest highway exit, type out their phone numbers, E-mail & all other pertinent info. (yup, I could do well to get a TomTom...I know)
If I give them an estimate I note the amount & date on the wordpad doc, then put in a "pending" folder on my computers zip drive which I open every night when I get home to make my calls from (a seperate drive so I don't lose them if my PC dies).
Each year I open a new Notepad document entitled "YEAR 06" "YEAR 07"...etc. (Bit nostalgic naming "YEAR 08"...knowing the stats on startup bus.'s for the first 5, fingers still crossed for two more)
On that document I keep listed columns, on the left is the date, name of customer next, amount of expenses (stock..parts..any expense incurred for that job) totalled in one amount for that given day, then there's the check amount, and finally the days net take on the right.
All reciepts, contracts & a copy of the check go into a manilla folder in my desk with the date on the folders tab, they're arranged in order by date with the customers name next to it.
Aside from my pending file on my zip drive, I also have a existing/previous customer folder, & a lost jobs folder.

Final note...I ALWAYS put reciepts, checks, all other paperwork in one of two places before filing.
A small portable metal file that goes everywhere with me...then a drawer in my desk thats devoted to ALL pending paperwork that I place paperwork in from my metal file at the end of each day.
When I'm so busy it's too late to sort when I get home, I go back and sort by date when it slows down.

[westcoastplumber]

In regards to my bookeeping, I have everything in 3 places, on the computer, in a register, and on the back of each invoice, the complete breakdown of the job, money wise. Everything for the day stays paper clipped until I get a chance to enter it. I have paper clips in my van and at my desk.

As far as all the other paperwork, I have to be organized, it is like a sickness I have, everything has a place.

Same with my van and garage, everything has a place!!

[yasudaplumbing]

I have that problem too. I still have about 40 invoices to send out from last year ('07).

I kinda have the problem of wanting to help people out more so than sending out their bill. I have numerous customers calling me inquiring about their invoice (lost in the mail?, forgot?, wrong address?). I just tell them I got too busy and will do it soon.

My stuff that helps me:

Phone message books with the little carbon copy tear off pages (2 1/2" x 3 1/2"), 4 messages per page. This always stays next to my telephone/answering machine. Sometimes I lose the top original copy and can always refer back to the main book/binder. I usually get these at Costco/Sams in a 3 pack.
5"x 8" yellow note pad to write materials & labor down for small jobs. 8 1/2"x 11" yellow note pad for large jobs.
When I get back home, I tear off the job notes and staple it to the phone message and throw it into a "Need to Bill" tray.
QuickBooks "Simple Start" accounting software by far has helped me the most this past few years. Forget about the "PRO" version, too much unnecessary "fru fru" B.S., I tried it.Simple Start is geared towards the "one man band" sole proprietor deals:

I invoice with this, emails straight from the program, one at a time or after preparing 20 invoices, you can email all 20 at once.
writes estimates and other forms
has a customer/vendor database
I write and print checks with this.
Tracks and receive payments
prepares deposits for you. Yesterday I had to deposit 22 checks. Forget about hand writing a deposit ticket. I just clicked away and my $150 HP laser printer prints the deposit ticket, all you need to do is endorse the back of your checks with your stamp.
you can enter/track your own credit card purchases and payments for your supplies and tools.
This program does a lot more, I'm still trying getting to know the finer points.
you can receive credit card payments as well
Running reports: profit & loss standard, balance sheet summary, general ledger, journal, trial balance, income tax summary.I bought this program at Sam's Club after much research.

When tax time rolls around, I just click a few buttons and print a couple of sheets and give it to my accountant, who by the way, was not happy, but totally ecstatic when I found this program. My life and hers became a lot easier.

Dunbar, because it's only Jan. 6, it is definitely easier to switch over to a program like this because you only have 6 days of entry to do, along with the normal start up entry stuff.

If you have any questions PM me.

Tracy

[gear junkie]

Need a pros only forum. I nominate this for 2008 thread of the year.

[Drain Medic]

I agree, i really wish we did have a private business category

[DUNBAR]

I third the motion Motion Carries


Some of this subject matter is not necessary for the general public to see and keeps me from discussing numerous facets of the biz.

[Drain Medic]

I third the motion Motion Carries


Some of this subject matter is not necessary for the general public to see and keeps me from discussing numerous facets of the biz.



Dunbar, your a unique individual, i would love to talk business with you in PM if your ever interested, that goes with anyone.... I love to talk business

[Ace Sewer]

About the second time I did so many jobs in one day and felt I was too busy to take the time to write them up as I went, then went to bed exhausted, too lazy to do them then, then woke up to the phone ringing the next morning, then couldn't remember them all, I changed forever. I write up every job on site before I drive away. It's the only way I can keep track. I'm too scattered by nature to make it work any other way. I have the luxury of a partner who is not in the field who does the mailing and collects the checks and makes the deposits and pays the bills and does the payroll and keeps the vans insured and plated and such. If I didn't, I'd hire an accounting service to do it; for me it'd be money well spent as it's work I hate and am not good at and I'm spread too thin as it is.

[ToUtahNow]

About the second time I did so many jobs in one day and felt I was too busy to take the time to write them up as I went, then went to bed exhausted, too lazy to do them then, then woke up to the phone ringing the next morning, then couldn't remember them all, I changed forever. I write up every job on site before I drive away. It's the only way I can keep track. I'm too scattered by nature to make it work any other way. I have the luxury of a partner who is not in the field who does the mailing and collects the checks and makes the deposits and pays the bills and does the payroll and keeps the vans insured and plated and such. If I didn't, I'd hire an accounting service to do it; for me it'd be money well spent as it's work I hate and am not good at and I'm spread too thin as it is.

When I was doing service I wrote my invoice on the job.

Mark

[stxrus]

When I was doing service I wrote my invoice on the job.

Mark

BINGO!! that is exactly what i do. if there is need of a followup written report i make notes and prep the reoprt ASAP. if it a mailed invoice (few and far bwetwen) it goes out the next day.i prefer to deliver the written (if needed) & invoice by hand. that way i know it got where it needs to be.

sometimes i do get a bit lax on collections. but i try to make the calls for late payments every monday, with the reminder that the bill goes up every friday at noon.

my desk is a shambles most of the time, but i can find what i need. i back up my business data on either a flash drive to be downloaded to an extrnal HD or directly to the HD.

steve

[Josh]

I think this private forum thing will take care of itself some time this year. Sorry to talk in vague terms but there will be a way to differentiate the pros and screen out the general readers from business specific topics.

[NHMaster3015]

History of sanitary sewers. My what a great site, just what I was looking for. Thanks so much.

[Drain Medic]

History of sanitary sewers. My what a great site, just what I was looking for. Thanks so much.


Yes it is a pretty neat site, the Big Sink Hole, to the wooden sanitary and water lines....

Good info

[DuckButter]

I think this private forum thing will take care of itself some time this year. Sorry to talk in vague terms but there will be a way to differentiate the pros and screen out the general readers from business specific topics.
My new personal hero...HAIL JOSH!
Ridgid has always been "THE" name for plumbers..in my area at least...suitable that you guys would provide a place for us to unwind, let down out hair and bicker in private...lol.

[DuckButter]

Dunbar, your a unique individual, i would love to talk business with you in PM if your ever interested, that goes with anyone.... I love to talk business
I'll vouch for that, dude...thank you for your honest and truthful experience.

[Josh]

Ok everyone as a temporary solution until we have what I eluded to earlier... I am willing to let you guys steer me and try new things out with the forum. Look at the bottom of the list of forums. Now the tough part. How do I restrict permission to this forum?

The only way I thought of is to have everyone who wants to be allowed in to pm me their contractors license # , city, state

Would this be sufficient. Would this exclude anyone who really should be reading this forum? If you guys really want to do this I want this seperate forum to be reserved for discussion that really shouldnt be visible to casual browsers. I dont want everyone to go in there an hide away. The RIDGID Forum is about educating everyone and sharing the wealth of knowledge. I really want this private forum to be used in rare situations.

I tend to see value in letting customers see that you actually do have to manage your resources and work hard at managing your business. Comments like Sylvan's were the negative type of discussions but he woulda posted those outside anyways.

Let me know what you guys think. Both positive and negative reactions.

Josh

[ToUtahNow]

I think we need a separate forum for Plumbing Contractors, and one for Journeyman Plumbers and one for Drain Cleaners. Then to go one step further they should be broken down by UPC, IPC, NSPC and Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Then if it really works well we can divide flat-rate and T&M.

Mark :D

[Josh]

dont give anyone ideas Mark. :D if it were up to some people on this forum we would have 2000 separate forums.

I am still cautious about changing anything after dog influenced me to change all the forums to pros only discussion :p

[gear junkie]

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15094&page=2
This is where I had an idea.

[DuckButter]

I'm guessing Marks not for this.
Can't win 'em, all.
Apologies for being from Mass(?)

Josh, licensing is one factor, also number of posts..as Ben said elsewhere.
Don't know if it should be plumbers only, maybe cert/licensed HVAC, builders, electricians....guys?
A combination of two major factors.
One that would be based on the fact that you are a professional..licensing and referrals from other established Ridgid members would be a good start.

Number of posts, or time as member on this forum ought be another factor to consider.
Maybe even a vote from members to join, though the "politics" of that one could get ugly.
Simply joining based on the fact that you have a license, but maybe not here to stay might not be good.
One of the great things about this site is the familiarity we have with eachother...though a bit clicky when just joining, thats how anything is.
I saw that and knew I'd have to expect time to pass before fitting in.

As for the regular forum, you have a very good point about the potential for neglecting the open forum...thats one idea's are needed on.

[DuckButter]

Another point...apprentices....do we include them?
I'd like to...thoughts?

[Josh]

I just don't have time to screen people that much. 95% of the work I do on the forum is "off the clock" I really lean towards not having a private forum but I do see some value in it. I don't want to hide any of the knowledge on this forum. But if there is discussion that needs to happen in addition to what is posted on the forum then I want to accommodate the pros.

http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15094&page=2
This is where I had an idea.

[ToUtahNow]

Duck,

I'm for what ever the majority wants so I'm okay. I just hope the new forum does not become a Clubhouse where most of the current interaction ends up.

Mark

[Josh]

Guys.. this is sounding more and more like discussion that should be done through PMs and via cell phone. I dont know if a new forum is really the solution for this. I didnt put Mark up to his comments but I do agree with him. I believe that if you dont have anything to hide in the way you do business then theres no reason you cant discuss it on the forum. if its something that doesnt belong posted publiclly then putting up hoops for people to jump through isnt going to be the solution.

Josh

[DuckButter]

I just don't have time to screen people that much. 95% of the work I do on the forum is "off the clock" I really lean towards not having a private forum but I do see some value in it. I don't want to hide any of the knowledge on this forum. But if there is discussion that needs to happen in addition to what is posted on the forum then I want to accommodate the pros.
Drop it on regular members for vote...
Say members with 500 or 1,000+ posts, and established licensing/professional credentials have a say in voting.
Nobody knows a plumber better than a plumber, HVAC, Electrician...so forth.
Something to that effect.

[ToUtahNow]

Guys.. this is sounding more and more like discussion that should be done through PMs and via cell phone. I dont know if a new forum is really the solution for this. I didnt put Mark up to his comments but I do agree with him. I believe that if you dont have anything to hide in the way you do business then theres no reason you cant discuss it on the forum. if its something that doesnt belong posted publiclly then putting up hoops for people to jump through isnt going to be the solution.

Josh

LOL-Don't make me look like the bad guy here. I say let them have their forum and let's see how it works. If it makes sense after a month keep it. If it does not then burn down the Clubhouse.

Mark

:thisthreadisworthle

[Josh]

We need to talk this through a bit more guys. Regardless of the rules I set up for admittance we are going to run into problems. If we base it on votes then we introduce politics and a club mentality. If we base it of credentials then I guarantee someone will end up in there that you wont want in.

Lets really think this one through a bit more.

Josh

[DuckButter]

Guys.. this is sounding more and more like discussion that should be done through PMs and via cell phone. I dont know if a new forum is really the solution for this. I didnt put Mark up to his comments but I do agree with him. I believe that if you dont have anything to hide in the way you do business then theres no reason you cant discuss it on the forum. if its something that doesnt belong posted publiclly then putting up hoops for people to jump through isnt going to be the solution.

Josh
Dunbar made a great argumennt for that.
So many posts get undermined or sidetracked with outside comments or DIY'ers getting upset when we comment on having to repair work they've done.
We go from discussing safety features/issues on fixtures to finger pointing at how someone was insulted by hearing something said the wrong way.

[DUNBAR]

I just shaved off my left eyebrow reading this.

I'm thinking in the situation of a hidden forum....it's like a moderator on a forum that can see just another forum, regular members excluded.

After awhile you don't even realize that it's hidden to anyone else and the viewing public isn't aware of its existence.

Well, it sounded good when it was in my head.

[Josh]

Its not a matter of hiding it or restricting it. Its a matter of who gets in and do you really trust that nobody will ever get into the private forum that doesn't belong there. I really think that PMs and setting up private chats in RIDGIDChat is the way to go.

Im listening though.. convince me.

Josh

[DuckButter]

Its not a matter of hiding it or restricting it. Its a matter of who gets in and do you really trust that nobody will ever get into the private forum that doesn't belong there. I really think that PMs and setting up private chats in RIDGIDChat is the way to go.

Im listening though.. convince me.

Josh
Thats a better idea even...if you mean a private chat room.
The whole idea is that when we want to talk about situations, techniques, tools or other topics that we're not comfortable in the open..we call eachother or pm.
Effectively we are hiding in a sense, just not in the forum.
The whole idea is having a way to communicate all together rather than one to one.
A thinktank of sorts.

[DUNBAR]

We need to see the west coast plumbers show up to give their two cents on these matters since it involves them as well.

Actually there's a bunch of regular members that fall into the gammut of expertise/knowledge I'd say fits the bill that randomly post on here. They need to be asked how they feel to get a complete opinion.

Josh I'm sure you're excellent of knowing who's spouting knowledge and who's not; usually the conversation/participation by a member will spell out how well trained they are.


Here's what I'd propose in your shoes:


Minimum 500-1000 posts on this site; you can make a great asessment of one's knowledge seeing this posting history in one place. Of course this requirement will instantly knock me out of the window of opportunity and that's okay. It should be a privilege to the longstanding members to get in to that side of the forum.

Of course if someone starts posting for posting count, they don't deserve the ability to get in.

Trying to chat (even though I've never tried it) I have seen is hard to coordinate, especially if it's done on a voluntary basis and requires a set time. Open door chat is really nice but hard to get in when you want to speak to certain individuals I'm sure.

I do the PM thing off and on with a few members and it's a good function on a forum board for off-forum convos. I sometimes don't remember to check if I have any sometimes.....even though it's in the right hand corner of my screen.

I'd say that with anything, try it and see if it floats. If it sinks then it was idea that didn't work and things go to normal. I'm sure a forum exclusive to pros would be uplifting for moral, and a reward for those who contribute freely to those who need advice/recommendations.

I'm willing to wait till I earn status. :grinning-moose:

[DUNBAR]

Thats a better idea even...if you mean a private chat room.
The whole idea is that when we want to talk about situations, techniques, tools or other topics that we're not comfortable in the open..we call eachother or pm.
Effectively we are hiding in a sense, just not in the forum.
The whole idea is having a way to communicate all together rather than one to one.
A thinktank of sorts.


Crap! He went to bed~!


Oh wait, this post shouldn't count. :run:

[Nevada plumber]

I have to agree with Utah in that I don't see the need for a private forum. I feel that if you want to talk about something that you are uncomfortable about someone else possibly seeing, then use a private message or pick up a phone. I personally don't care if some homeowner sees a thread about how I run my business, or how I set my rates, etc. As for an irritating homeowner or do it yourself person that tries to derails a thread, if no one responds to them, they tend to go away.

[yasudaplumbing]

I have to agree with Utah in that I don't see the need for a private forum. I feel that if you want to talk about something that you are uncomfortable about someone else possibly seeing, then use a private message or pick up a phone. I personally don't care if some homeowner sees a thread about how I run my business, or how I set my rates, etc. As for an irritating homeowner or do it yourself person that tries to derails a thread, if no one responds to them, they tend to go away.
My thoughts exactly.

Honestly, I would rather have homeowners see the reason why I charge the rates I've set (Labor, Materials, Travel Time, Liability Insurance, etc.). To me, the more homeowners are educated about running a mobile shop, the less likely they are to grumble.

We all know who the respected professionals are here, so if a newbie chimes in, take it with a grain of salt.

Tracy

[PLUMBER RICK]

too me it's the reason why i don't join the phcc. it's a boys club out for flat rate.

the forum is not just for pros. it's for the common joe. there is plenty of communications here both on chat and on the phone. there isn't a day that goes by that i don't get or make a phone call to another member.

i really feel that a private forum will take away from the whole reason why we are here. to share our knowledge and help people out. both public and pros.

i have to agree with mark;), nevada, and tracy. along with josh:bravo:

to me the private stuff can be handled like it's been before.

i doubt the t&m guys really need to hide their trade secrets. sorry, but this is how i feel and this is what i see it boiling down too.

rick.

i can hear the phone ringing now:eek:

[CPlumb]

What about us " Johnny come lately s " . Guess it's kinda like " Hey , you're a REALLY GOOD player , but we;ve already got our team ,,, sorry"

Boys Club . Oh ,well there goes another good forum . Too bad, really liked this one.

CPlumb

[ToUtahNow]

What about us " Johnny come lately s " . Guess it's kinda like " Hey , you're a REALLY GOOD player , but we;ve already got our team ,,, sorry"

Boys Club . Oh ,well there goes another good forum . Too bad, really liked this one.

CPlumb

No need to get nervous this will all work out.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

I have to agree with Tracy. If you're not ripping the public off than why should you hide the business side? I personally don't give a rats you know what what Joe home owner thinks of my rates. If he does'nt like it he's got plenty of other places to try (though we all charge about the same around here) If he's really interested he can sit down with my accountant and get a first hand education as to why I charge 97 bucks an hour.

[DUNBAR]

Okay then, How bout this:


Josh, Please change my user name to RUGGED <<< All caps please!!!


That way I can hide behind my username like the majority are doing here without any way of tracking back to statements made online.

I shouldn't of used my "professional" name on here because there are times I go off the handle, off topic or like to discuss specifics in regards to numerous things involving plumbing.

These specifics have to be told sometimes to fully explain what why and how it happened. There's been many a times I've wanted to either help someone in their situation, add insight to a potential problem and caught myself thinking back to the simple fact;

it's a public forum

it can be read for years through cached pages or search engine finds

can be seen by my former,current, future customers that may or may not be in my best interest

^^^^ I promise with the above line, I'm sure there are heated moments in conversation permanently inked in the rolodex of info across the www you wouldn't want clientell seeing/hearing/having a head's up, especially if you meant it differently than the way it was portrayed.

Even though the internet is huge, names and word jumbles can lead you to a statement you've made in the heat of the moment, or you've changed your mind and have a different take, different work practice or even left the state where a situation presented a bad bad situation and like most humans, acted out on it whether it was good or bad for you personally, good or bad for you for business.

It just would be nice that if these web crawlers do pick up snippets of info that was here today, never gone tomorrow, it sure would be nice that when the user went to click on that link trying to gain info regarding certain subject matter, it took them to a restricted access page that keeps this private content where it belongs.

But seriously, go ahead and change my username so I can get the same luxury afforded by anyone that say anything and not be held accountable for it. Fair enough. I up and removed my company url weeks ago just because I was trailing this line with certain subject lines and felt compelled to NOT give the keys to the cadillac to allow a free ride to where it's coming from.




Word!

[DuckButter]

I'm notorious for defensiveness with DIY requests, I generally avoid the "ask" forum until a recent thread got my attention...my bad.

I think this may have a lot to do with my particular market, I get alot of "sneaky" calls drumming me for free info, free estimates or requesting rediculously low prices, yup, it gets to me.

One example of why I think a place to openly chat without concerns for general public viewing are those scenario's we occasionally come into..like a customer who wants to pay less after the fact because they feel you may have made a mistake, a concern that maybe you'd used inferior stock or fixtures and want input from other experienced members altogether.
It's one thing to take a "tongue lashing" from other tradesmen in your field, another altogether to hear from someone who has taken it upon themselves to impose wisdom because they once installed their own kitchen faucet.

I'm DON'T support the idea of elitism, nor clicky or nefariously scheming venues...just a simple place we could let down out hair and talk shop without reservation.
Cplumb makes a very valid point, he's a pro..thats pretty obvious...this is why I opted to mention a vote and/or referrals from regular members as a prerequisite aside from seniority....as I said before, nobody knows a plumber like a plumber.

[NHMaster3015]

I guess I can see where you're coming from here. It would be nice to have a secure place online to talk about plumbing and whatever issues. I'm not sure how to go about it though. Guys that want to sneak in probably will. The other thing here is that only people that have an interest in plumbing are going to visit the Ridgid site anyway (Everyone else is looking at porn) So I'm not sure if it's worth being exclusive because of the few that may visit from time to time.

[DUNBAR]

I haven't gotten any paperwork done but I did tell my phone company to start removing some of my advertising.


Think some of the topics here are heated; wait till this guy calls; he's going to be acting like I've made the worst decision in the world and the sky is falling. I'm going to tell him straight up; keep it up and I'll keep dropping more. :jumping:

[franklie]

what about our international brethren that join us on occasion here? we've got professionals from Europe, Australia sharing with us as well?

[DuckButter]

what about our international brethren that join us on occasion here? we've got professionals from Europe, Australia sharing with us as well?
I wish more of you would, one of the most attractive (albeit frustrating) features here is diversity...fascinating to read and swap idea's from different jurisdictions and schools of thought, specifically with newer technology like high eff. boilers, heaters ..etc.