4 toilets on a 3" horizontal Line - Code Q?

[Team Scream]

Somewhere I read in the UPC that if the toilets are far enough apart you can actually have 4 toilets on a 3" line?
Does anyone know where this little bit of information might be found or maybe can quote it off the top of your head?
I know the general rule is 3 toilets on a 3" line but there is an exception and I need that info if you know it please share!
Thanks!

[ToUtahNow]

First welcome to the forum. Had you joined a day earlier you could have met a bunch of us and our wives in Redondo Beach last night.

I have never heard or seen an exception in the UPC regarding a 3-water closet limit for a 3" horizontal line.

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

Welcome to the forum.

I have yet to read such an exclusion in the UPC.

[drtyhands]

I haven't seen anything in my code excluding the pipe increase based on distance.

Welcome to the forum.

[yasudaplumbing]

Same here, never heard of any exception to allow 4 toilets on a 3" line.
It was always 3 toilets maximum on a 3" line.

:welcome: to the forum.

Tracy

[Team Scream]

Hey thanks for the welcome gentlemen!

What I have going on is I am building 2 detached "office" structures in my backyard here in Torrance, each structure is 15' x 15' and will be slab 6" above grade with the slab being finished floor (think decorative concrete finish).

Each "office" will have an ultra small bathroom (3' 6" x 6') and contain a toilet and a pedestal sink.
Here on out I will refer to these buildings as "East Office" and "West Office".

I did a complete interior remodel 2 years ago to the main house and installed all new copper supply and ABS (3") drains.
There are 2 existing bathrooms in the main house each full bathrooms (shower/toilet/sink).

The layout is pretty simple in that the 2 bathrooms of the main house are the farthest fixtures away from where the main 3" sewer line leaves the house and ties into the 4" cast iron out in my front yard/porch.

That being said, my intention was to route the drain from the west office to a spot directly in front of the east office and wye them together.
At that point I will penetrate the foundation of the main house and run straight to the point where the house sewer line leaves the house and meets the 4" main sewer line.

My challenge is that everything under the house is 3" and it would be a big deal to dig up the front porch area and get at the 4" tie in.

What do you guys think will fly here?
I have a permit for all of this work, but somehow I don't see the inspector assigned to my project crawling under the house to inspect the tie in, it is a bit of a crawl and this guy seems to be pretty happy with his hair do and fancy pressed shirt when he shows up and for the life of me I just don't see him getting dirty......call me naive but its a gut feeling I get.

Every toilet in the house is a new 1.6 lpf unit.

The 2 existing toilets are over 40' from the (proposed) tie in point and I had a guy tell me he swears up and down that there is an exception to the 3 toilet per 3" rule based on linear feet of separation.

So let me know what you guys think.
I really don't want to have to dig up the front porch to replace a 10' section of 3" with 4" but as a last resort if push comes to shove I may have to?

The kicker is that I need to get the (rough) plumbing bought off so I can tie steel and pour concrete next week before all of the sand dries out again.

By the way, thanks again for the warm welcome and invitation to meet up with you guys in Redondo, sorry I missed that and I hope you guys had fun.

P.S. I work in show business, and I am currently unemployed thanks to the writers guild of America and as a result I am taking on a lot of the work on this office project myself to save myself some money....any help is most genuinely appreciated!

[westcoastplumber]

Sounds like you need to dig around the house to the front of the porch and tie in there, I would not touch the porch.

You will have a 4" clay main, or ABS, if its been upgraded.

Have you checked out grade? are you at a 1/4" per foot?

I have yet to see a job where I can add a 3" sewer in the back yard, and be able to run the sewer under the house and tie it in, I have always need to run around the side of the house and then to the 4" sewer. This includes drain re-routes also, and washer relocations to the garage int he back, etc.

You need to know depth of your current sewer and location to know where to tye in at.

[westcoastplumber]

As far as the inspector comment I just read, I suggest doing it right.

I have had inspectors crawl far back under houses, now, depending on the inspecotr, I have built trust with some of them, but still I perfer they crawl back to look, I did my job, I need them to do theirs.

Always do the job right, does not matter if the inspector is going to crawl back there or not.

[ToUtahNow]

Consider when you sell the house with the illegal connection you will have to disclose it or be responsible for it when it is discovered.

Mark

[Team Scream]

Hi WestCoast.
Thanks!
Yes I have checked grade.

The distance from where I plan to wye the 2 offices together at the back of the house to where I plan to tie into the waste line under the house is 26 feet.

That makes 6-1/2" of slope from the wye to the tie in.

Now since I am running laterally (actually diagonally) from the west office to a point just in front of the east office and that length is roughly 40' then I need 10" of slope to the wye.

I will dive the east office waste line into the west office tie in at the wye and still have plenty of room left for the 6-1/2" of required slope to the front of the house.

In other words the math works for what I am trying to do here.

Thanks for taking the time to reply but I have been under the house so many times to take measurements and scope things out that i am certain there is enough slope available to pull it off.

You may be right about the clay 4". I was under the impression that it was iron but it has been a couple of years since I had that work done.

The main waste line to the street actually is pretty deep, it does not penetrate the foundation but rather routes below it so figure I have well over 16" of slope available from the back yard wye/tie in to the front of the house to play with and again I only need 5 or 6" to make it work to spec.

This may be one of those rare instances where I have the house you have not seen where this can actually be accomplished without having to run the line around the side of the house......hopefully this rings true.

I was really hoping that someone other than the guy I spoke with had heard of this exemption to the 3 toilet per 3" line rule.

Also one last thing.

Keep in mind that the point where I want to tie in the office waste line to the main house waste line is AFTER all of the other drains for the entire house. In other words at the point of the tie in to the main waste line there is only about 6 feet of 3" pipe till it hits the 4" under the front porch if that makes any difference?

[westcoastplumber]

If you had the UPC, I could give you the page number, where it is not allowed, any exemption would be listed on the same page, if there was one, but there isn't.;)

[ToUtahNow]

Hi WestCoast.
Thanks!
Yes I have checked grade.

The distance from where I plan to wye the 2 offices together at the back of the house to where I plan to tie into the waste line under the house is 26 feet.

That makes 6-1/2" of slope from the wye to the tie in.

Now since I am running laterally (actually diagonally) from the west office to a point just in front of the east office and that length is roughly 40' then I need 10" of slope to the wye.

I will dive the east office waste line into the west office tie in at the wye and still have plenty of room left for the 6-1/2" of required slope to the front of the house.

In other words the math works for what I am trying to do here.

Thanks for taking the time to reply but I have been under the house so many times to take measurements and scope things out that i am certain there is enough slope available to pull it off.

You may be right about the clay 4". I was under the impression that it was iron but it has been a couple of years since I had that work done.

The main waste line to the street actually is pretty deep, it does not penetrate the foundation but rather routes below it so figure I have well over 16" of slope available from the back yard wye/tie in to the front of the house to play with and again I only need 5 or 6" to make it work to spec.

This may be one of those rare instances where I have the house you have not seen where this can actually be accomplished without having to run the line around the side of the house......hopefully this rings true.

I was really hoping that someone other than the guy I spoke with had heard of this exemption to the 3 toilet per 3" line rule.

The information on the 3" line is in a footnote in Table 7-5. If there was an exemption there would be an exception listed with the footnote. Distance would not tie in to an exemption as distance as nothing to do with the reason the requirments exists. If you need a copy of the table shoot me a fax number and I will send you one.

Mark

Better yet Westcoast (Robert) lives 5-minutes from you he can stop by and show the table to you.

[toolaholic]

Better Yet, Hire Robert,He's The real deal, in all of our opinions. He'll be in and out in a heartbeat! You can save money elsewhere!

[yasudaplumbing]

If you had the UPC, I could give you the page number, where it is not allowed, any exemption would be listed on the same page, if there was one, but there isn't.;)

The information on the 3" line is in a footnote in Table 7-5. If there was an exemption there would be an exception listed with the footnote. Distance would not tie in to an exemption as distance as nothing to do with the reason the requirments exists. If you need a copy of the table shoot me a fax number and I will send you one.

Mark

Don't you guys have amendments to the UPC on a separate pamplet? I thought every town/city had these which are available when purchasing a UPC code book. The amendments which are approved by our city allow us to legally stray or exempt us from following certain codes in the UPC.

Contrary to what I mentioned in my earlier post, now that I think about it (after having my first cup of coffee :D) , IIRC, about 5 years ago, a fellow journeyman friend of mine did mention something about approving a change in waste line sizing regarding 1.6 gallon toilets which contradicted the UPC.

I honestly don't remember the context because I really didn't care. I wasn't going to change my practice of running 4" for 4 toilets. I figured once someone changed the 1.6 flappers to regular flappers, the toilets would be 3 gallon flushers anyways.

Tracy

[Bob D.]

NSPC reads thus:

11.5.6 Restrictions on the Number of Water Closets on 3" Drains
a. 3" Horizontal Fixture Branches
No more than four water closets or bathroom groups shall be installed on a 3" horizontal fixture branch.

EXCEPTION: Where the water closets are rated 3.5 gallons or more per flush, no more than two water closets or bathroom groups shall be permitted.
b. 3" Stacks
No more than four water closets or bathroom groups shall be installed within any branch interval of a 3" stack, and no more than a total of twelve on the stack.



EXCEPTION: Where the water closets are rated 3.5 gallons or more per flush, no more than two water closets or bathroom groups shall be permitted in any branch interval, and no more than a total of six on the stack.
c. 3" Building Drains and Sewers1. In single dwelling units, no more than six water closets or bathroom groups shall be installed on a 3" building drain or building sewer, or branches thereof.



EXCEPTION: Where the water closets are rated 3.5 gallons or more per flush, no more than three water closets or bathroom groups shall be permitted.
2. In other than single dwelling units, no more than four water closets or bathroom groups shall be installed on a 3" building drain or building sewer, or branches thereof.EXCEPTION: Where the water closets are rated 3.5 gallons or more per flush, no more than two water closets or bathroom groups shall be permitted.d. Mixed Water Closets on 3" Drains




Where 3" drainage piping serves a mixture of 1.6 GPF water closets and 3.5 (or higher) GPF water closets, the 3.5 (or higher) GPF water closets shall be counted as two water closets for the purpose of determining the total number of water closets on the 3" drainage piping. The drainage fixture unit (DFU) load for each 3.5 (or higher) GPF water closet shall be as indicated in Table 11.4.1

[Team Scream]

Hey thanks guys.
I do have a question about interpretation.
What I deduce from reading Bob D's excerpt post from the NSPC code is that you cannot have more than 3 toilets on a 'horizontal branch".
Well what defines a "horizontal branch" ?
If you look at the picture I have attached the red lines represent the new proposed waste line which totals 2 toilets and 2 sinks. The Blue lines represent the existing waste lines of the house which include the items listed in the drawing.

My question then is this:
Is the red line (representing the new proposed waste line) a separate "horizontal branch" because of where it ties into the main 3" line that serves the house? And if it is a separate "horizontal branch" then I should be able to legally do what it is I am asking correct?

Again thanks guys for all of the help.

Heres the image.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2261/2174073518_4bb0ea9923_o.jpg

[Bob D.]

"What I deduce from reading Bob D's excerpt post from the NSPC code"

Please remember that the NSPC is not used in your state, so even though the codes may be similar from one to the next, nothing in the NSPC should be applied or taken as correct for California and most other states.

[PLUMBER RICK]

The information on the 3" line is in a footnote in Table 7-5. If there was an exemption there would be an exception listed with the footnote. Distance would not tie in to an exemption as distance as nothing to do with the reason the requirments exists. If you need a copy of the table shoot me a fax number and I will send you one.

Mark

Better yet Westcoast (Robert) lives 5-minutes from you he can stop by and show the table to you.

mark is right on with table 7-5.

the 4 toilets you might be referring to are for vertical pipe or stack.

so if you had a 4 story apt. or condo. you could then install 1 on each floor of the stacking units. now once you hit the horizontal line it would then be 4''.

that might be what you were interpreting as 4 toilets for 3'':confused:

rick.

[ToUtahNow]

Team Scream.

The pipe down stream from where your red line ties into your blue line needs to be 4" under the UPC.

Mark

[Team Scream]

Thank you so much Mark
I really appreciate it.
I am actually going down to the city tomorrow to talk to the inspector before he heads out into the field to clarify a couple of other issues as well and I intend on having him tell me what he expects to see during his inspection.
I am not trying to get away with anything and I want to do it the right way as WestCoast mentioned but I really don't want to have to do more than is truly required.

[Team Scream]

Ok I thought I would update you guys on what has transpired since yesterday when this thread began.
I took all of the advice to heart and did not even bother going to the city.

I started at 8 AM this morning and dug up all of the dirt in front of my porch so that I could expose the 3" waste line to 4" clay connection that was supposed to have been done when I had all of the waste lines replaced 2-1/2 years ago.

What I found was that there was a 3" cast iron pipe connected to a wad of concrete and that my 3" ABS waste line was connected to this cast iron pipe with a basic flex interconnect.

So I took the bull by the horns and cut the 3" ABS, then went under the house and cut the opposite end of the 3" pipe that went under the front porch, under the foundation footing and served the entire house.

Then went do the plumbing supply and purchased all of the items I needed to replace the 3" pipe with 4" pipe to complete the task mentioned in the original post.

I also called a local plumber who is showing up tomorrow to cut the clay pipe nice and clean for me at which point we will connect the 4" ABS I ran under the porch to the 4" clay city waste line.

I temporarily installed a 4" to 3" reducer and used a new 3" flex hub to reconnect my new 4" to the cast iron 3" so that we can shower and use the bathrooms tonight.

I then went under the house and reconnected the sink drain (4x2) and temporarily rejoined the original house lateral 3" branch to my new 4" branch (4x3) and did a flush and shower test by having my wife and kids flush the toilets and run both showers at the same time to make sure I don't end up with a flood under the house overnight.

All in all I am glad I did this because the cast iron 3" pipe that my old 3" ABS was connected to was pretty crusty inside and the more I thought about it like WestCoast said, do it right or don't do it at all.

So when this is all said and done the waste system should be bullet proof and I may even go the extra mile and run 4" up to both of the existing bathrooms and have the 3" shower and toilet drains all tie into 4" ABS so that I never have to think about it again.

I really appreciate all of your help and I can say without a doubt that this forum by far has more cordial professionals who are willing to participate in a thread than any other trade forum I have visited and I want to thank you guys for that.

Again remember that I am doing most of this work myself by financial necessity and not because I want to try and just save a few bucks.
Every hundred dollars counts with this project and the more I do the more I can basically pay myself during this writers strike which has left me unemployed for the last 2 months.

Thank you guys for taking the time to help me understand what I needed to do.

[ToUtahNow]

Thank you for the update as so many times we never hear the outcome.

Mark

[yasudaplumbing]

Team Scream,

Good Job! :clapping::bravo:

I'll call you next time I need help on a big job :D.

You'll have to buy your own airfare & pineapples though :packed:.


Tracy

[westcoastplumber]

You know whats funny Team Scream, I spoke with a plumber in the supply house today, I think he was there getting parts for your job, cause he was talking about the section under the patio......does Casey ring a bell???

[Team Scream]

You know whats funny Team Scream, I spoke with a plumber in the supply house today, I think he was there getting parts for your job, cause he was talking about the section under the patio......does Casey ring a bell???

Lol....that would be a really funny coincidence but no....the guys name was Fernando from Surf Side Plumbing, good dude, fast worker and I had him all day.
We got all the waste and vent lines stubbed up in both buildings, got the 2 buildings waste lines joined in front of the east office, and got the clay pipe cut nicely and managed to get the 4" clay to 4" ABS hub installed perfectly lined up and a thing of beauty.

The only thing left is the 3" run under the house to the new 4" interconnect and I will have that knocked out tomorrow. That will complete the waste line part of the job.

I do have a question regarding the copper that I am going to run from the 1" main out to these buildings.
Can I use 1" copper coil? is there such a thing? I was hoping to avoid having to silver solder all of the joints that will be embedded in concrete which if I am not mistaken is required? or can I just sweat pipe normally if it is embedded in concrete?

One other question I have is regarding gas line:
Can I use 1" black pipe and embed it normally? or is there some special requirement for gas line that is embedded? I am not convinced that it is a good idea to consider tankless water heaters in each of these buildings so I may try to figure a way to install small 30 gal gas tank heaters up in the attic of each building? is that allowed? attic installation? or am I dreaming?

Thanks guys!

[westcoastplumber]

I know it is cheaper to put the copper in the concrete, you would use sof copper and run loops, but I would never do that. I run it up the wall and over to the fixture, I never run my copper under the slab.

As for the gas, black pipe cannot be buried, it has to be scotchcoat wrapped pie and 20 mill on the joints, it cannot be run imbedded in concrete and is usually run up the walls and in the cieling.

It can be run under concrete, with special exceptions and has to be vented and sleeved, yours is not special, and needs to be run up the walls and throught the cieling to the fixture needing gas.

[westcoastplumber]

Lol....that would be a really funny coincidence but no....the guys name was Fernando from Surf Side Plumbing, good dude, fast worker and I had him all day.
We got all the waste and vent lines stubbed up in both buildings, got the 2 buildings waste lines joined in front of the east office, and got the clay pipe cut nicely and managed to get the 4" clay to 4" ABS hub installed perfectly lined up and a thing of beauty.

The only thing left is the 3" run under the house to the new 4" interconnect and I will have that knocked out tomorrow. That will complete the waste line part of the job.

I do have a question regarding the copper that I am going to run from the 1" main out to these buildings.
Can I use 1" copper coil? is there such a thing? I was hoping to avoid having to silver solder all of the joints that will be embedded in concrete which if I am not mistaken is required? or can I just sweat pipe normally if it is embedded in concrete?

One other question I have is regarding gas line:
Can I use 1" black pipe and embed it normally? or is there some special requirement for gas line that is embedded? I am not convinced that it is a good idea to consider tankless water heaters in each of these buildings so I may try to figure a way to install small 30 gal gas tank heaters up in the attic of each building? is that allowed? attic installation? or am I dreaming?

Thanks guys!


The other thing, the only gas pipe that can run under the slab, penetrate the slab witout a sleeve is PSII Trac Pipe and you need to be certified to install this pipe.

Attic water heaters are fine, but you need a pan, a drain for the pan wich can drain to the lav by use of a branch tailpiece, better to drain it outside, straps, and service platform in front of the heater, a t&p that drains to the exterior, I think that covers the attic install of a electric or gas watre heater, combustion air and proper vent also required on gas. attic combustion air to be exact.

you are not allowed to have joints under the slab on copper,t his is why you loop them and manifold above the conrete, the only time you can have a braized joint is if you have a slab leak and need to do a repair, it has to be as minimal as possible.

[drtyhands]

When you are talking concrete I visualize your concrete hardscape,as your out buildings are so small why would you need joints under the slab.I have been allowed to silver solder under structure slab per my code.

Both your gas and water can be run under your hardscape concrete.We silver solder/braze under concrete,it's a far superior joint.You don't want to be breaking out your stamped concrete in a few years do you? there are a few things to consider while pondering this.Gas can be run in P/E pipe(fused plastic).yes you can get 60' rolls of soft copper.

What have you done to beef up the cieling rafters to carry the extra 300 pounds min. of water and heater?

the t+p has to go all the way down to within 6"-24" of finished grade.So your going to have to get someting in the walls.

I keep seeing the word "embeded",we are not allowed to run any pipe in the slab.Everything is under with sand and visqueen moisture barrier for slab.

[Team Scream]

When you are talking concrete I visualize your concrete hardscape,as your out buildings are so small why would you need joints under the slab.I have been allowed to silver solder under structure slab per my code.

I have about 50 feet of length from the west office building to the spot where I have a 1" copper water line already outside the house, this is the spot where my whole house water filtration system is located, I was going to run my supply line from this point.
My thought was that I would use the 60' roll style 1" tubing from this point to the west office and gently 90 up through the footing/foundation and stub out there above finished floor (in the wall). That way I have no solder joints from the source into the office building. From there I intended to use standard 1" copper pipe and sweat fittings normally once above finished floor.
After I hit the last fixture in the west office building I was going route down the east wall of the that building to tie back into roll style tubing and then head over to the east building under ground again and gently 90 up through the footing/foundation of the east office building and repeat the process for the east building and terminate there.

See the picture below for a diagram of what the layout of the backyard/office buildings look like, and by all means if you think there is a smarter way to do it then PLEASE let me know. Also I have included an alternate water line path which would require I place a "T" in front of the west building and hit the east building that way, but I was under the impression that if the copper is going to be buried under earth or concrete it requires a special type of soldering that I am not familiar with so when I laid this out in my head I made every attempt to keep one solid piece of tubing that was underground with no solder joints? Please let me know what you think?



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2125/2179195217_b5a4680c8d_o.jpg




Both your gas and water can be run under your hardscape concrete.We silver solder/braze under concrete,it's a far superior joint.You don't want to be breaking out your stamped concrete in a few years do you? there are a few things to consider while pondering this.Gas can be run in P/E pipe(fused plastic).yes you can get 60' rolls of soft copper.

When you say "fused plastic" or "PE" pipe is that something that I can buy and "fuse" myself wherever I need a joint of one kind or another? and also is "PE Pipe" ok to run inside the wall of a structure?

What have you done to beef up the cieling rafters to carry the extra 300 pounds min. of water and heater?

The engineer I had who stamped my plans (which I drew up myself by the way) has gone way overboard with everything here, for example I have (2) 5' X 3' windows in the front of each building where a strong wall would have more than sufficed, but since I required the ability to have a "lot" of weight above the ceiling he called out Hardy Frames between the windows, (2) #5 rebar top and bottom of all footings, the footings are 24" tall in the front of these buildings and 18" on all other sides, 2x8 ceiling joists all with MST straps, PHD5 and PHD2 holdowns all with SSTB20 anchors which anchor 4x4 posts at all 4 corners, every wall is a shear wall and the slab will be 6-1/2" thick floating inside the footings, and various other Simpson strap/clip hold down etc. The ceiling and roof are over built for how small these places are going to be...it's almost bomb shelter strong...lol.

the t+p has to go all the way down to within 6"-24" of finished grade.So your going to have to get someting in the walls.

Can you elaborate on T&P ? I have no idea what that means..sorry about that :(

I keep seeing the word "embeded",we are not allowed to run any pipe in the slab.Everything is under with sand and visqueen moisture barrier for slab.

Yeah I got used to using that word "embedded" after spending a few days with the engineer, sorry about that.
When I say embedded I mean anywhere a water or ABS line penetrates the concrete foundation, I have no intention of stubbing up through the slab with any water lines, but I do need to get it up through the footing/foundation into the wall and where it 90's up from the ground into the footing it is embedded in concrete right?
So again referring to the description above, I was told the right way to do that was to use continuous copper roll tubing to avoid solder joints?

[DuckButter]

With all said and done, thought it best to hold off.
Our code allows only 3 closets on a 3" main, 2 on each 3" branch.

[great]

With all said and done, thought it best to hold off.
Our code allows only 3 closets on a 3" main, 2 on each 3" branch.

Thanks for clear this up for us.

[drtyhands]

The engineer drew what would get approved by the city.He would not be in business if he had a reputation of repeatedly overstructuring.If you want the heater up there you should get it on the plans so it can be supported.Unless your bootlegging this whole thing then you can duct tape it over the bed,I don't care.

I'll let you search Temperature and pressure relief valve(t&p)

The PE pipe is very good product.It's not going to rot out under your concrete like black pipe.A lot of times inspectors will check for the installers proof of certification on PE.Your plumber should be fair to you for fusing a few joints in ditches you have already excavated.It's cheap like you so I think your going to like it:D

[Team Scream]

With all said and done, thought it best to hold off.
Our code allows only 3 closets on a 3" main, 2 on each 3" branch.

Took care of that, I now have a 4" main, connected to the 4" clay in front of the house.

Unless your bootlegging this whole thing then you can duct tape it over the bed,I don't care.

No bootlegging here sir, everything is on a valid permit.

It's cheap like you so I think your going to like it

Wow....that almost sounds like a pot shot? If I was the quiet sensitive type I might have to go crawl in one of these holes I dug and pout for a while as that would have hurt my feelings.....lol :)......actually I prefer the term "cost conscious" makes it feel a little more "politically correct".......you cranky guy you :)

In fact I mentioned to the engineer that I may want to put something as heavy as a water heater up in the attic, he too said that it could be done but I wanted to consult plumbers prior to committing to it to see if it was in fact a sound idea, and at that time I was still working everyday and was seriously considering tankless, but after reading a lot of posts here from both WestCoast and Rick I have come to the conclusion that they may be more trouble than they are worth.

The truth of the matter with regards to the placement of the heater above the ceiling is that there is one wall inside each office that separates the bathrooms from the main room which has an intersecting wall as well and he called out wedgeall anchors in the floor for each of these walls to ensure that the weight could safely be placed above this particular point......it's a work of art.....lol

[drtyhands]

Naw maaannn,I'm serious it's not a bad thing to call someone cheap,as long as it is said in the right tone and with a smile.To some people it's actually a compliment.Cause most of the rich guys I network with beat me on my price then take us out to dinner.

What's a wedgeall? a redhead anchor? our architects draw in anchor bolts 24" on center anymore.

Sounds like your having fun.Good luck and don't forget to keep coming back so I can yank your chain some more:wave3:

ADAM:)

[DuckButter]

TEAM...I only mentioned my code as an afterthought...I'm 3K miles away...might as well be Mars from your perspective.
Thats why I avoided this thread.

[Team Scream]

I understand DuckButter,
Listen, heres the deal, I am so grateful to be getting advice from you guys its not even funny.
I consider myself extremely fortunate to (A) be able to do this work myself as much as possible and (B) to have a place like this that I can post up a question and have several answers from people who do it for a living. THANK YOU.

So here are my questions for today if you dont mind answering them I would genuinely appreciate it!


Water Line:

(1) Am I to understand that ANY water line that is underground needs to be either soft copper from a roll and CANNOT have solder joints UNLESS they are a particular type of solder? or it can be regular hard copper line but every joint needs to be silver soldered?

(2) Can I join this soft copper tubing to my main water line with regular solder as long as the joint/union is above ground?

(3) Does this soft copper tubing need to be sleeved EVERYWHERE or just where it penetrates the concrete footing? In other words am I required to sleeve the underground portion? or just the portion that 90's up through the footing?

Gas Line:

(A) PE Line, since I want to bury the gas line up to the offices, would I attach the PE line to the existing black pipe and then run the PE line underground to the office footing and up above into the wall and then attach it to black pipe and then up to the fixture(s)?
In other words, black pipe needs to be in the walls but PE pipe needs to be under ground and up through the footings correct?

I am having fun with this and I get a real sense of accomplishment when I get a big portion of the project done in a day like i have over the last couple/few days so again, thank you guys, very much!

[westcoastplumber]

I understand DuckButter,
Listen, heres the deal, I am so grateful to be getting advice from you guys its not even funny.
I consider myself extremely fortunate to (A) be able to do this work myself as much as possible and (B) to have a place like this that I can post up a question and have several answers from people who do it for a living. THANK YOU.

So here are my questions for today if you dont mind answering them I would genuinely appreciate it!


Water Line:

(1) Am I to understand that ANY water line that is underground needs to be either soft copper from a roll and CANNOT have solder joints UNLESS they are a particular type of solder? or it can be regular hard copper line but every joint needs to be silver soldered? Copper underground, should be type L, but ouside of a building can be type M, solder joints are ok underground outside, must be brazed under slab, you can either use soft or hard, outside the building, soft under the slab and jointless under the slab.

(2) Can I join this soft copper tubing to my main water line with regular solder as long as the joint/union is above ground? yes, ouside of the slab or building, regular solder is fine

(3) Does this soft copper tubing need to be sleeved EVERYWHERE or just where it penetrates the concrete footing? In other words am I required to sleeve the underground portion? or just the portion that 90's up through the footing? you need to sleeve copper, drain that penetraites the slab, meaning goes up through the slab or through the foundation, all must be sleeved.

Gas Line:

(A) PE Line, since I want to bury the gas line up to the offices, would I attach the PE line to the existing black pipe and then run the PE line underground to the office footing and up above into the wall and then attach it to black pipe and then up to the fixture(s)? Are you certified to use PE pipe and install it?? Please have a licensed plumber do this as it is much more dangerouse then just waste and water lines.
In other words, black pipe needs to be in the walls but PE pipe needs to be under ground and up through the footings correct?

I am having fun with this and I get a real sense of accomplishment when I get a big portion of the project done in a day like i have over the last couple/few days so again, thank you guys, very much!

For your safety, I would rather not give you advice on gas, except that you should run your gas underground with scotchcoat and then once at the office, run it up and through the wall, get the idea of running gas under the slab and through footings out of your head. Also, forget about the PE pipe, unless you will have a licensed, certified installer do this part for you.

[Team Scream]

Thanks Robert,
I appreciate the safety factor!
I think I am going to ask the other questions in another thread as the 4 toilets on 3" line part is over and done with.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, it is much appreciated!