Rough plumbing Inspection - Calif question

[Team Scream]

Well man this forum is amazing, the quality of people who frequent the place is outstanding, this is my 2nd thread here.

Here is what I have.

2 small detached offices in my back yard going up.
These offices are slab on grade in which the back wall of each building is a CMU block wall.
The plumbing for each building is at the back near these block walls.
I am almost done with the rough plumbing which consists of 1 toilet and one sink in each office.
I really want to get plumbing inspection done tomorrow if possible so I am trying to prepare for it.

The inspector hinted that I will need to do a drain test and mentioned a 10' vertical pipe, but this guy is not very forthcoming with the information so I need to know what the rule of thumb is when doing this.

I imagine that I will have to plug the clean out with one of of those rubber inflatable devices at the lowest part of the drainage system (where it enters beneath the house and connects to the main) and then fill the entire system with water and pull the plug when he is ready to see it drain?

My questions:

(1) Placement of the 10' section of vertical (test) pipe?
Do I use a 10' piece of 3" pipe sticking up vertically out of the toilet drain (closet bend)? or somewhere else?

(2) Do I just put rubber caps on the toilet vents and sink drains?

(3) Since he wants to see all of the fittings how do I support all of the waste line pipes that are just sitting in their trenches on stakes with plumbers tape which hold them at the proper slope now?

Thanks for any advice.
I witnessed the drain inspection when we did the main house a couple years ago and I remember having to fill the vent line with a hose from the roof until water came out of the other vents, but since these offices are much smaller and there are no vents through the (not yet existing) roof I am at a loss here.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Well man this forum is amazing, the quality of people who frequent the place is outstanding, this is my 2nd thread here.

Here is what I have.

2 small detached offices in my back yard going up.
These offices are slab on grade in which the back wall of each building is a CMU block wall.
The plumbing for each building is at the back near these block walls.
I am almost done with the rough plumbing which consists of 1 toilet and one sink in each office.
I really want to get plumbing inspection done tomorrow if possible so I am trying to prepare for it.

The inspector hinted that I will need to do a drain test and mentioned a 10' vertical pipe, but this guy is not very forthcoming with the information so I need to know what the rule of thumb is when doing this.

I imagine that I will have to plug the clean out with one of of those rubber inflatable devices at the lowest part of the drainage system (where it enters beneath the house and connects to the main) and then fill the entire system with water and pull the plug when he is ready to see it drain?

My questions:

(1) Placement of the 10' section of vertical (test) pipe?
Do I use a 10' piece of 3" pipe sticking up vertically out of the toilet drain (closet bend)? or somewhere else?

typically on something this small, i would run the vent up to the roof level and fill it to the roof . a 2'' vent is required for the toilet vent. the 10' mark is basically a 5psi test.

(2) Do I just put rubber caps on the toilet vents and sink drains?

a jim cap is a rubber cap. they are fine.

(3) Since he wants to see all of the fittings how do I support all of the waste line pipes that are just sitting in their trenches on stakes with plumbers tape which hold them at the proper slope now?

i would hope that you backfill the ditches to a firm bed of sand. the rebar is not a good idea on abs pipe. neither is metal plumbers tape. the pipe will move with temperature and the metal can wear it thin. backfill to the bottom of the pipe and pull the stakes.

Thanks for any advice.
I witnessed the drain inspection when we did the main house a couple years ago and I remember having to fill the vent line with a hose from the roof until water came out of the other vents, but since these offices are much smaller and there are no vents through the (not yet existing) roof I am at a loss here.

post some pictures of your progress and we can give you a once over;)

typically the ruff inspection will include all the underground. so unless you have all the other lines, water, gas , electrical. you might be a little early for the inspector. this is a combination inspector, correct? have him come and inspect and then get his call on what he wants to see next when he comes out again.

rick.

[drtyhands]

The "other" lines and rebar in footings are installed after groung work soil pipe inspection and backfill to rough grade but before sand and visqueen.

[westcoastplumber]

Adam, I am sure you will agree, Jim Caps can and will blow off during a 10' head test, I would use a test waffer or knock out and then a jim cap.

Shading the sewer and drains is an excellent idea, clean spoil will please the inspector and at the same time, keep the pipe stable and ready for backfill with no belly's.

[gear junkie]

I always had to leave my joints exposed until after the pressure test was done.

[drtyhands]

Adam, I am sure you will agree, Jim Caps can and will blow off during a 10' head test, I would use a test waffer or knock out and then a jim cap.

Shading the sewer and drains is an excellent idea, clean spoil will please the inspector and at the same time, keep the pipe stable and ready for backfill with no belly's.
Thousands of jim caps under test Robert sometimes 30' on 2" with no support.Displace all air and cap.no blow.Knock out I.P.O.'s I use on top out:)

[westcoastplumber]

Thousands of jim caps under test Robert sometimes 30' on 2" with no support.Displace all air and cap.no blow.Knock out I.P.O.'s I use on top out:)


hmmm, I member you and I having this conversation and you agreed that they do blow out, I for one have heard them blow out.

[gear junkie]

Shading the sewer and drains is an excellent idea,
What do you mean "shading"?

[drtyhands]

What do you mean "shading"?
Putting backfill around pipe leaving the top exposed for inspector

[PLUMBER RICK]

What do you mean "shading"?

covering the pipe with an unbrella so the white pvc, doesn't turn into black abs:killingme:

rick.

[Team Scream]

You guys are awesome and funny at the same time, what a great place.
I will do on the "shading" and I will use test caps and jim caps on the other lines, now all I need to do is figure out how to seal the clean out at the house so I dont have to spend $50.00 on a "hot dog".
I will post up some pictures tomorrow....I am beat up today, too many hours under the house today...I am feeling my age...
Thanks for the help guys!

[PLUMBER RICK]

You guys are awesome and funny at the same time, what a great place.
I will do on the "shading" and I will use test caps and jim caps on the other lines, now all I need to do is figure out how to seal the clean out at the house so I dont have to spend $50.00 on a "hot dog".
I will post up some pictures tomorrow....I am beat up today, too many hours under the house today...I am feeling my age...
Thanks for the help guys!

go to costco and a hot dog and coke is $1.50:D

these usually can be rented or a double test plug.

can you just jim cap the last connection and let the water out after the test? no problem if the water is not under the house. another way is visquene, then snake to pop the visquene and then remove the plastic visquene when drained.

try to get the plumber to bring you 1. you will need him down the road.

or you can do a 5# air test and not have to worry about the spilt water under the house or ditch;)

or you can spend the 50 on the donkey d$ck:D

rick.

[DuckButter]

One thing is certain.
While on strike, I don't think Team has any concerns his writing (comedy?) job is jeopardy from anyone here.

[Ace Sewer]

...so I dont have to spend $50.00 on a "hot dog".

I can probably send you one; took one out of a clogged main line today. I left it with the homeowner but after he's used it to hit the guy who left it in his cleanout over the head a few times he'll be done with it.

[drtyhands]

hmmm, I member you and I having this conversation and you agreed that they do blow out, I for one have heard them blow out.

I do remember us talking about it.We used jim caps because the I.P.O.'s were not glued on the day before and we didn't know when the inspector was going to show on your job.So the glue would not dry in time to fill your top out up.Plastic crushes and slips off if you don'y put a I.P.O. plug in the pipe first.

The inspector has no way to tell if there is water in the stacks during a ground work inspection with IPO's.Niagra or jim caps for ground work.

[westcoastplumber]

I do remember us talking about it.We used jim caps because the I.P.O.'s were not glued on the day before and we didn't know when the inspector was going to show on your job.So the glue would not dry in time to fill your top out up.Plastic crushes and slips off if you don'y put a I.P.O. plug in the pipe first.

The inspector has no way to tell if there is water in the stacks during a ground work inspection with IPO's.Niagra or jim caps for ground work.


the other thing I see, which I forgot to comment on yesterday is blown off jim caps under houses after a mainline stoppage.

I will never install jim caps under houses or out of plain view.

[Team Scream]

I can probably send you one; took one out of a clogged main line today. I left it with the homeowner but after he's used it to hit the guy who left it in his cleanout over the head a few times he'll be done with it.

Ace, thats awesome brother, I do appreciate it, thats some funny stuff tho, did the guy leave without doing a system check before he bowed out? what a kook!

I couldn't justify the $50.00/one use tool option, I got a "test plug" from Lowes which is a red plastic/rubber seal/wing nut in the middle unit which I am sure will have me soaked at the end of the test but it was 3 or 4 bucks so I snagged it.

I got my soft copper rolls, my ball valves (since I figured it would be a good idea to have a shutoff between the house and the offices) and I got my 1-1/2" electrical conduit.
I also trenched out under the house and got my slope dialed in and the 3" waste line run from the combi that joins the 2 offices together to the 4" tie in and I am thinking that I can probably be ready for inspection on Monday if I bust my behind all weekend.

I promise I will take pictures and post them when I get all the ground work done on Sunday.

Thanks again Ace for the offer, I really appreciate it, now if you want to send that hot dog to me I can email you a USP shipping label that you can print and tape on a box? I would love to have the thing especially since there is no guarantee that I will pass inspection and I may need it sooner than I think......lol :eek:

[drtyhands]

the other thing I see, which I forgot to comment on yesterday is blown off jim caps under houses after a mainline stoppage.

I will never install jim caps under houses or out of plain view.

Yep,they are not an approved fitting for permanent instalation.They are for temporary use only.Solvent weld caps,threaded cleanouts or blind plugs are good.

[Team Scream]

Hey guys I have a question?
Where will the inspector want me to put the test plug or the hot dog?
under the house where the waste line joins into the 4" main? or will he allow me to put it in the clean out in the waste line right before the 3" continues under the house?

I need to know before I glue everything together.
Thanks fellas.

[drtyhands]

At your connection.

[Team Scream]

At your connection.

Ok thanks DH,
What I did then is I put a 3" Y on its back less than a foot from where the 3" line from the offices meets the 4" main and left the arm that points up open so I can stick a hot dog down in there, obviously the vertical arm points back towards the offices (uphill and not downhill).

I guess that means that I will be under the house waiting for his queue to have me pull the plug?

[drtyhands]

NOOOO-HO-HO MY FRIEND.

THE WYE POINTS DOWNHILL TOWARDS THE STREET MAIN:)

The test balloon will plug the water back.When you let the air out slowly you won't get drenched.All fitting must go with the flow.:wave3:

Also add a 8" piece or so to the wye to help the balloon not go too far into the main.

[Team Scream]

Yes sir I believe I understand the concept.
I added the 3" WYE just before the tie in to the 4" main, and yes there is about 10" of 3" pipe after the WYE which I then tied into the 4" main via reducer.
Here is a quick illustration of what I did.
http://www.teamscream.net/pics/Test%20WYE.jpg

[Ace Sewer]

not what you are trying to accomplish, but for drain cleaning puposes, a cleanout swept so you can clean up this system, the opposite of your drawing, is nice. best is two, one swept up, one down, criss-crossing each other.

[drtyhands]

Yes sir I believe I understand the concept.
I added the 3" WYE just before the tie in to the 4" main, and yes there is about 10" of 3" pipe after the WYE which I then tied into the 4" main via reducer.
Here is a quick illustration of what I did.
http://www.teamscream.net/pics/Test%20WYE.jpg
Sweet

[drtyhands]

not what you are trying to accomplish, but for drain cleaning puposes, a cleanout swept so you can clean up this system, the opposite of your drawing, is nice. best is two, one swept up, one down, criss-crossing each other.
Do you like these under the house Ace.You do raise a good point.Now would be a good time to put in some clean-outs for future snaking.In low visibility areas if possible.Where are your clean-outs scream? your only allowed 135 degrees of change before you have to add one in.Sorry I didn't look back to see if someone mentioned it yet.Kinda late.

[Ace Sewer]

Do you like these under the house Ace.
no, best just outside foundation

[ToUtahNow]

Hopefully he has a 4" two-way cleanout (prefer two separate 4" cleanouts)where he tied into his 4" in the front yard. If so he may not need a cleanout under the house. If he does need a cleanout under the house it needs to be within 20' of the crawl hole access.

Mark

[Team Scream]

Yes I have a cleanout at the clay tie in at the front of the house, I have an end of line cleanout at each office, I also (will) have a cleanout on the flat vent for the toilet in each office.

There are cleanouts everywhere in the existing waste system as well, one for the kitchen, and one for each bathroom all of which are outside the house.

Keep in mind guys that this is a small house and these offices are small as well.
For example, the distance from the end of line cleanout at my east office to the 4" tie in under the house is about 50 feet.

Now as far as the direction change the west office makes one 1/4 bend before it heads straight under the house. Because of the difference in height (roughly 4") based on distance from the back of the house where the 2 offices tie in together I had to get creative. Heres some pics.

This first pic is the west office, the plastic plumbers tape you see on the 2" flat vent is there to support the pipe temporarily, it will not be there when we pour the footings and slabs.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/2190206778_83f550e7df_o.jpg

This is the east office, the plastic plumbers tape you see on the 2" flat vent is there to support the pipe temporarily, it will not be there when we pour the footings and slabs.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2156/2189419877_967647e7e9_o.jpg

This is where I tie in the east and west office drains.
Edited from earlier, I went and got a wye instead of the combi that was there.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2326/2190416300_c58b83c775_o.jpg

[westcoastplumber]

Ummmm, has the inspector already looked at this??

Maybe I am not able to tell, but did you roll your flat vents into the main on a 60 degree, they look like they tie right in, I have made this mistake before, it is easy to miss when you are in the heat of the moment.

What about backfill?? the pipe looks like it is laying right ont he ground? I suspect you are going to backfill.....

On the last picture, instead of the comby and the 1/8 bend, you could have moved further downstream and used a wye, less bends and less fittings, better for the flow

Overall looks like a fun project and many congrats for your efforts.

[Team Scream]

Thanks WestCoast,
Yes the flat vents are on an angle, maybe not exactly 60 degrees but definitely above centerline of the main.

As far as the combi, did you see an earlier picture?
I changed it out to a wye this morning and took another picture, it definitely eliminated one of the bends and is a much cleaner flow path.

Do you think the inspector is going to be picky about being exactly 60 degrees on the flat vents? or will he see that they are pointing uphill and above the centerline of the main 3"?

All of the pipes that are inside my forms are backfilled pretty much, the stuff outside the forms and near the house are just laying in the trench for now until I am satisfied I have it dialed in.

Thanks a lot for the compliments, it is a fun project but this part of it....the plumbing has been a pain in the butt, I have been frustrated a few times and wasted a few fittings in the process.

[drtyhands]

The 3x2 wye needs to be kicked up above the flowline then leveled back to horizontal with an eighth bend.We usually use a 4x3 ell on out W/Cs so a 4"water closet flange can be installed after concrete.3" are too resstrictive on the discharge horn of the toilet.

Who knows how educated the inspector is.I think I saw an inspectors certification card on the back of a cereal box the other day.:groucho:

[PLUMBER RICK]

as was already mentioned in roberts and adams post. you need to have that 2'' vent for the toilet on at least a 45 degree angle upward. 45 degree is considered vertical and will pass inspection. flat venting is not allowed in this case. now if the inspector is not that critical, then at least install a c/o on the 2'' vent line as it can plug and not self clean if you get a stoppage on the 3'' line.

as adam has mentioned, a 4x3'' closet bend is a wise choice. also wrap/ foam insulate around the bend for your concrete pour and any pipes that penetrate concrete.

looks great for a diy;)

rick.

[drtyhands]

Rick,if I was an inspector and failed him for flat venting I should be taken out front of city hall,tarred and feathered.

Scream has an existing structual condition allowing him to flat vent,his tie in elevation:)

Also,he's better off not foam wrapping now.A lot of the inspectors these days want to see all of the pipe and fittings.He should do it before the steel goes in,then touch it up after the steel scrapes it to shyt.

[westcoastplumber]

:confused: you changed the pics !! The pics with the comby and 1/8th are gone:angry:

I do like the wye, a much better, cleaner, free flowing drain line:p

the crap won't be on a roller coaster now.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Rick,if I was an inspector and failed him for flat venting I should be taken out front of city hall,tarred and feathered.

Scream has an existing structual condition allowing him to flat vent,his tie in elevation:)
not saying the inspector will call him? still if it can be properly vented, it should be. also a c/o on the vent if it remains flat is required.

all he has to do is get the waste line/ vent way closer to the wall and then he can 45 up. he is allowed a 6' dirty arm if needed.

by the way, i like your chicken just the way it was prepared. no tar and no feathers:lol:

although, once at a hamburger hamlet we got chicken wings with the feathers still on them:eek: needless to say, the placed was out of business less than a month later:shocked:

rick.

[Team Scream]

God I could kick myself in the *** right now.
The plumber that I met at Lowes who was nice enough to say something to me when I was curiously looking at a combi told me what the combi was (I already knew that but it was a nice segway into my next question), anyway I had a picture printed out of how I had the waste lines roughed together and he told me it was wrong, he then told me I could flat vent it and pulled out a 3x2 wye and stuck an 8th (street) bend on it and told me how to do it.
I was so freaking excited that there was an easy solution that I completely forgot to put the 8th bend on it when I got home.
Now all that stuff is glued together and I know I will have to cut it out and re do it. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::shocked2:

Man this is frustrating.

P.S. he told me and I did mention in an earlier post that I was going to put a cleanout on the flat vent.

P.S.S. Since I am going to have to cut this stuff out and redo it, can you guys tell me how to get a 4" closet bend in there?
That has me completely perplexed.

[westcoastplumber]

on your "toilet" 1/4 bend, you need to use a 4 x 3 closet bend or 4 x 3 1/4 bend. your waste will still be 3", its just your verticle to the toilet will be 4"

[heritage]

was a lot of work scream wasn't it. i like to run everything on right angles, not angeling across to your sewer that way you can also put a t on it's back for a vent to line up with a partition wall for the vent to run up. keep us informed on your inspection. they usually catch all flat venting. never heard of a cleanout for a flat vent in ohio.

[Team Scream]

on your "toilet" 1/4 bend, you need to use a 4 x 3 closet bend or 4 x 3 1/4 bend. your waste will still be 3", its just your verticle to the toilet will be 4"

Thanks bro!
Well after getting all the way to Home Depot only to realize I forgot my wallet I made the round trip again and got the 4x3 closet 90.
I also got new 3x2 wyes and 1/8 bends so I can redo the flat vent as you guys have me scared now that I do not have enough angle on the wyes.
I will be up at 6:30 AM tomorrow so I can bang it out before my plumber buddy shows up with the test balloon so we can test the system.
I want to do a dress rehearsal before the inspector shows up.

Thanks for all the help fellas.
For my first DIY plumbing project, I figure I have wasted about $130.00 in fittings and about 4 or 5 hours on the learning process which still leaves me ahead of the game a bit in my book.
I love the learning process, hate the frustration, and hate doing things twice but since I am learning it has all been a good experience so far.

I really want to do this part right before I call the inspector out, I don't want the guy to think I am hacking anything, especially this early in the game.

[drtyhands]

Scream,it looks good.It's going to look a lot better to the inspector if you could throw some backfill around the pipe(shading is the term we use here).This helps keep the pipe's uniform fall.Just put dirt in the ditches and drag your SQUARE shovel along the top of the pipe.This will leave a small amount of the top of pipe and fittings for the inspector to see.If you do have leaks they will soak and discolor the soil.He is going to want to see the pipe laying on a firm bed.

[westcoastplumber]

I made a sifter, it works exellent, it gets all the rocks, debris out of the spoil.

clean spoil does please the inspector and remember to have 12" of clean dirt over the pipe