pressure reducing valve repair/replace?

[dcw]

I have a pressure reducing valve (PRV) that appears to have gone bad. About 3 months ago, it started whistling VERY loudly when two faucets or a faucet and a toilet where running at the same time. So I adjusted the pressure down some (counter-clockwise) and that worked. Seemed to work--quiet pipes, happy wife. :D

But now I get a pressure reading at 80 after the water is turned off for a while. Also there is a very short “burst” of water when the water it turned on and then it levels off at a normal pressure level (actually very low because I have the pressure adjustment screw all the way out.). Also, if the water is off for about 30 minutes, I start to see small leaks/drips at a toilet and a faucets, etc. Again, the adjustment screw I have threaded all the way out (counter-clockwise) and still pressure builds when no water is on for a while. Also, if I turn the PRVadjustment screw clockwise (more pressure) I start to get the whistling again. Wife not happy. It is loud --like neighbors say "what's going on in your house" loud. They look at me funny when I say, "Oh, someone must be taking a shower." :rolleyes:

Here is a picture of the PRV. I believe it is a 25AUB-Z3 http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/25AUB_Z3.jpg (http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/25AUB_Z3.jpg)

The problem is this: the PRV is installed in a ceiling in the basement. Very small access panel in the ceiling. And worse, the PRV is between two joists such that the entire PRV can not spin to get it off the downstream side without it hitting the joists.

My questions are this: As seen in the picture there are two bottom cleanout plugs. Given that I have whistling when pressure is turned up and pressure build-up even when the pressure adjustment is set at low, is cleaning out those two plugs likely to give me any benefit? Or is the problem more likely up in the guts of the PRV such to clean/service it, I would have to take the bell or spring housing off? And if I do that, should I just replace the whole PRV as now I can get the PRV base to spin between the joists?:confused:

Also, if I go with a replacement, can I install using the reverse process described above: take the spring housing off the new unit, install the base onto the pipes, reinstall the spring housing on the base once it is on the pipes?:confused:

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Regards, DAVE

[Pete M]

I have a pressure reducing valve (PRV) that appears to have gone bad. About 3 months ago, it started whistling VERY loudly when two faucets or a faucet and a toilet where running at the same time. So I adjusted the pressure down some (counter-clockwise) and that worked. Seemed to work--quiet pipes, happy wife. :D

But now I get a pressure reading at 80 after the water is turned off for a while. Also there is a very short “burst” of water when the water it turned on and then it levels off at a normal pressure level (actually very low because I have the pressure adjustment screw all the way out.). Also, if the water is off for about 30 minutes, I start to see small leaks/drips at a toilet and a faucets, etc. Again, the adjustment screw I have threaded all the way out (counter-clockwise) and still pressure builds when no water is on for a while. Also, if I turn the PRVadjustment screw clockwise (more pressure) I start to get the whistling again. Wife not happy. It is loud --like neighbors say "what's going on in your house" loud. They look at me funny when I say, "Oh, someone must be taking a shower." :rolleyes:

Here is a picture of the PRV. I believe it is a 25AUB-Z3 http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/25AUB_Z3.jpg (http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/25AUB_Z3.jpg)

The problem is this: the PRV is installed in a ceiling in the basement. Very small access panel in the ceiling. And worse, the PRV is between two joists such that the entire PRV can not spin to get it off the downstream side without it hitting the joists.

My questions are this: As seen in the picture there are two bottom cleanout plugs. Given that I have whistling when pressure is turned up and pressure build-up even when the pressure adjustment is set at low, is cleaning out those two plugs likely to give me any benefit? Or is the problem more likely up in the guts of the PRV such to clean/service it, I would have to take the bell or spring housing off? And if I do that, should I just replace the whole PRV as now I can get the PRV base to spin between the joists?:confused:

Also, if I go with a replacement, can I install using the reverse process described above: take the spring housing off the new unit, install the base onto the pipes, reinstall the spring housing on the base once it is on the pipes?:confused:

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Regards, DAVE

If you can replace it - do so. It's not an expensive part. If you rebuild it, it may be unreliable.

[dcw]

Thanks. I understand that replacing is a better option but there are other issues going on here---tight quarters, difficult to reach, partial disasemmbly to remove the orginal one. And so what I am looking for is an indiaction of whether cleaning the PRV via the two cleanout plugs is a viable option to start with (given what I am describing as my pressure problems) and whether if I do have to do a full reinstall, can I install as I describe (base first, then spring housing.)

Regards, DAVE

[PLUMBER RICK]

dave, your pressure build up as described has to do with thermal expansion. when the water heater heats up the water, there is a pressure rise. this is normal and thus the reason why it's a short burst of pressure when you turn on a faucet.

your regulator has a thermal bypass feature in it. as long as the city pressure prior to the regulator is lower than your relief valve (125-150#) the excess pressure will go back into the city line. provided there is no check valve, backflow preventer in the system.

an expansion tank is required to absorb the pressure and prevent the spike you're describing.

as far as regulators go. it's quite easy to remove the bell and spin off the body. i would suggest installing a double union model like a wilkins #70 double union as this will allow you to remove and install the unit in tact.

there is a very in detail thread from last week that explains all of this you have described.

i will try to post the link to it.

rick.
http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15022

[dcw]

Thanks for the reply. I loved that last thread by the way---fear not, I shall follow your advice :).

Anyway, this “pressure build up” has not been a constant thing---it only started 3-4 months ago when the high-pitched whistling started and I actually turned the pressure DOWN using the PRV adjustment screw. And actually I followed the logic of that last thread and I turned off my water heater for a day and ran the hot water in a bathtub until I was completely out of hot water. ;) So while I have been testing and measuring the pressure with a gauge, I have no hot water in the tank and no water being heated at all (heater is actually off at this point). Same result---burst of pressure on turning on any faucet or washing machine, then settles down to normal pressure (at what I set it at on the PRV); PRV to lowest setting still allows pressure to build up until released by something turning on or slow leaks/drips at a few of the faucets. Pressure is at about 20 at gauge hooked to outside bib (which is subject to the RPV) when the PRV is at maximum counter-clockwise adjustment. Also, it doesn’t take long for the pressure to build up once I turn a faucet on and then turn it off (10 minutes?)

Could a dirty screen in the PRV be the culprit? Also, there are two cleanout plugs—any benefit or detriment to trying both instead of the screen plug only? :confused:

Its like the PRV works—it will up and down the pressure as I adjust the screw. But when the system is closed and everything is off, its like something is causing the pressure to build over time. And having taken the hot water heater off-line, I can’t think of anything else but something screwy going on in the PRV.:rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Please let me know your thought on this given the heater is off-line. Give me something that sounds good because I got the wife wanting constant updates and I've got to keep her convinced I can fix this.:D

Thanks again.

Regards, DAVE

[PLUMBER RICK]

dave, it's very common for a regulator to start to creep up.

a bad o-ring or the o-ring boss is to balme. this is what i see on bad regulators. the screeching is from possibly a loose washer or one that has lifted off the washer cup.

i have yet to find a regulator with a bad seat. i didn't look at your regulator breakdown parts list. there are some newer style regulators that are cartridge style. you replace the cartridge and it's all new.

as far as your 2 screen ports. i is the screen/ filter. the other should be a port for the removal of the diaphragm screw. i will look at your link and see the parts.

rick.

[Bob D.]

Do you know your supply pressure from the street before the PRV?
You might need to reduce the pressure in stages to eliminate the noise.

Isn't this a soft seat on this regulator? Might have gotten something past the screen that has damaged or is hung up on the seat.

What happens if you remove the adjustment screw completely (not just back it off all the way)? From looking at the cut of the valve interior you should be able to do this safely. If you get any water weeping or under pressure with the adjuster screw removed then the diaphragm is shot.

[dcw]

Plummer Rick and Bob--Thnaks for your input! I do not know the pressure coming off the street. How would I test for that? Maybe the front bibb is before the PRV--I'll check and post.

As far as removing the adjustment screw, I can't. It gets to a point and then it just spins and spins-- like there is a flange or something that keeps it from inadvertantly coming out. No water leaks out when I back the screw out as far as possible (decreasing the pressure).

See my worried face--this is me:o Here is my wife now:cool: and she soon shall be :mad:

Thanks again!
Regards, DAVE

[westcoastplumber]

You should put a test guage on the hose bibb closest to the street, you can purchase a cheap one at home depot for around $12.00, this will tell you if you are over 60-80 psi.

I understand you have a tight space, I would cut your old regulator out, I assume it is in copper, and solder on some new fittings and a union regulator that you can change out yourself, very easy in the future.

Since you have done the hot water test and have the same result, then this is not a thermal expansion problem as recently mentioned.

If you are going to purchase the regulator yourself, make sure it is a bypass model then you will not need to install a pressure only on the house side, after the meter as this model will let pressure back into the city water system and it is not considered a closed system.

[JERRYMAC]

:D
Here's what you need to do,

#1 replace the existing PRV. if you can get apart to remove great ! install a new double union PRV. this will allow you to slide into place without tearing down, you "MAY" have to get from a plumber or plumbing supply the big box don't always carry this kind,

#2 at the same time buy and install a new thermal expansion
tank above water heater, on cold side tee,

AND MAKE YOUR WIFE HAPPY ! ! :):):)


JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

P.S. the reason this suddenly happened is because the city
raised the street water pressure to handle the new construction in town and they "DO NOT NOTIFY" homeowners
i have seen this happen in differnt parts of the country,:(

[dcw]

Okay, went outside with the pressure guage and street pressure is about 110.

Okay, my last questions are (hopefully): Should I even bother to remove the two plugs to see if cleaning out the PRV and the screen will fix the problem? Remember, the initail problem was very loud whistling pipes when two faucets on. Now the problem has expanded to add I have high pressure even when PRV is set to lowest possible pressure. Whistling is gone when set to lowest possible pressure BUT I still get pressure creep (80-90) and a blast of water when PRV is at lowest pressure setting.

Again, is what I am experiencing more likely to be up in the guts of the PRV such that I have to basically take the thing off to service/clean it? Is removingthe plugs and cleaning the PRV a pipe-dream (pardon the pun) that will likely do nothing for me?:indecisive:

[dcw]

Re: pressure reducing valve repair/replace?
Okay, went outside with the pressure guage and street pressure is about 110.

Okay, my last questions are (hopefully): Should I even bother to remove the two plugs to see if cleaning out the PRV and the screen will fix the problem? Remember, the initail problem was very loud whistling pipes when two faucets on. Now the problem has expanded to add I have high pressure even when PRV is set to lowest possible pressure. Whistling is gone when set to lowest possible pressure BUT I still get pressure creep (80-90) and a blast of water when PRV is at lowest pressure setting.

Again, is what I am experiencing more likely to be up in the guts of the PRV such that I have to basically take the thing off to service/clean it? Is removingthe plugs and cleaning the PRV a pipe-dream (pardon the pun) that will likely do nothing for me?:indecisive:

[westcoastplumber]

Re: pressure reducing valve repair/replace?
Okay, went outside with the pressure guage and street pressure is about 110.

Okay, my last questions are (hopefully): Should I even bother to remove the two plugs to see if cleaning out the PRV and the screen will fix the problem? Remember, the initail problem was very loud whistling pipes when two faucets on. Now the problem has expanded to add I have high pressure even when PRV is set to lowest possible pressure. Whistling is gone when set to lowest possible pressure BUT I still get pressure creep (80-90) and a blast of water when PRV is at lowest pressure setting.

Again, is what I am experiencing more likely to be up in the guts of the PRV such that I have to basically take the thing off to service/clean it? Is removingthe plugs and cleaning the PRV a pipe-dream (pardon the pun) that will likely do nothing for me?:indecisive:


I would replace the PRV, and yes, what you are experiencing is probably caused by the diaphram.

Replace it, cut the copper, and install a dual union set up, I doubt that cleaning anything will help, you can try, if you have nothing better to do, sure, give it a try, just be ready to replace it if you cannot get anything back toghether correctly or it leaks afterwards or is worse off.

Keep on mind, your PSI should be 80 max.

[plumberscrack]

Check with your municipal water supplier. Typically if the incoming water pressure is over 80psi they will provide you with a PRV. Of course you will have to find someone to install it. I wouldn't bother trying to rebuild the old one.

[Woussko]

My bet is you'll end up having to take your PRV totally apart, clean it out really well and install a rebuild kit. Most likely the diaphragm has a tiny hole in it. This is more of a PITA than it's worth so replacement of the whole thing is in order. I really think you would do well to hire a good plumber to help with this project.

In addition to replacement of your pressure regulator (aka pressure reducing valve) you really need to have a pressure relief (safety) valve installed just down stream of it that's set to blow at about 75 PSI. This is to prevent back pressure building up and busting the diaphragm in the new one and also to prevent damages elsewhere in your house. Anyone that works with well water systems and pumps knows about this type of relief valve. They are used in case the pressure switch sticks and the pump doesn't shut off. In such cases if you don't have a pressure relief valve something has to give and you end up with damages and a flood.

I recommend installing a 0-100 or 0-160 PSI pressure gauge just after the regulator and another 0-200 or 0-300 PSI just after your main water shut-off valve. This way you can see what's going on. There are special copper sweat Ts with a side port that's threaded. Good plumbers know about them and any needed bushings as well.

As for installing an expansion tank for your water heater, please have it done. It will save you much grief later on.

Have check valves installed as per local code requirements and it would be wise to install and new T & P safety relief valve on your water heater.

Grief prevention is the keyword here, and unions really come in nice when something needs to be removed for service.

Please note that appliances such as clothes washers and dishwashers are designed for around 40 PSI (please no less than 30 or more than 65 PSI) at the inlets. Too high and you can bust up the insides of the solenoid valves and too low pressure and the machine may not totally fill up as it needs to.

[DUNBAR]

Check with your municipal water supplier. Typically if the incoming water pressure is over 80psi they will provide you with a PRV. Of course you will have to find someone to install it. I wouldn't bother trying to rebuild the old one.



Thought I'd respond to this while I'm waiting for my pot pie burning up in the toaster oven.

In my area they only install a high pressure prv when the pressure is above 135, and that is only when they are concerned about their meter, not your water supply system.

The meters are designed to blow out at 150 psi. So in essence, the water district doesn't care how damaging their pressure is, you own from the meter to the house and everything inside it. Tough luck for the victims.

To the OP:

You're overthinking the situation; a plumber would of come in and replaced the prv without second thought, installed an expansion tank if there was none present and it would of been a memory. Rebuilding such a device can never be guaranteed.


Whoops! Pie is served. :have-fun:

[plumberscrack]

Thought I'd respond to this while I'm waiting for my pot pie burning up in the toaster oven.

In my area they only install a high pressure prv when the pressure is above 135, and that is only when they are concerned about their meter, not your water supply system.

The meters are designed to blow out at 150 psi. So in essence, the water district doesn't care how damaging their pressure is, you own from the meter to the house and everything inside it. Tough luck for the victims.

To the OP:

You're overthinking the situation; a plumber would of come in and replaced the prv without second thought, installed an expansion tank if there was none present and it would of been a memory. Rebuilding such a device can never be guaranteed.


Whoops! Pie is served. :have-fun:

I like pie too :oink: :D

I'm pretty sure I have never seen a pressure reducing valve before the water meter :confused:

[DUNBAR]

I like pie too :oink: :D

I'm pretty sure I have never seen a pressure reducing valve before the water meter :confused:


Yep yep!

Double set of meter brackets in the pit. I'll take a picture of one next time I have to deal with a shutoff at the main.

[dcw]

Okay, since I had nothing better to do (westcoastplumber convinced me to do so ;)) I loosened the screen plug and spent an hour with a plastic container the size of a shoe letting the water drain out, replugging the PRV, fishing the shoe-sized container through the hole in the ceiling and emptying the bucket. Finally got the plug out to look at the screen. There was some stuff in it but not as much as the toothpick or a wad of gum I was hoping to find.

So, I am back to tighten everything back again but have a question. The plug and the housing are brass. Should I use some teflon tape and/or plumber's putty to avoid any leaks from the plug?

And then I'll turn the water on and pray for no whistling and/or pressure problems. Let me know about the tape or putty. Thanks again!

Regards, DAVE

[PLUMBER RICK]

teflon if needed. there should be a fibre gasket already there.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

Okay, since I had nothing better to do (westcoastplumber convinced me to do so ;)) I loosened the screen plug and spent an hour with a plastic container the size of a shoe letting the water drain out, replugging the PRV, fishing the shoe-sized container through the hole in the ceiling and emptying the bucket. Finally got the plug out to look at the screen. There was some stuff in it but not as much as the toothpick or a wad of gum I was hoping to find.

So, I am back to tighten everything back again but have a question. The plug and the housing are brass. Should I use some teflon tape and/or plumber's putty to avoid any leaks from the plug?

And then I'll turn the water on and pray for no whistling and/or pressure problems. Let me know about the tape or putty. Thanks again!

Regards, DAVE


There should be gaskets where needed. I would not use paste, because it could get inside and clog something up.

If a gasket or seal broke, hmmmm, it may leak. put it back toghether, turn the water on and see where it leaks.

If you need to, teflon tape is better then dope, it will not break apart and clog if you install it properly, on the outside of the threads

[westcoastplumber]

Oh yeah, did you inspect the diaphram and the spring? the disk? to make sure all is well and not corroded or cracked?? there is also another nut inside you can turn, make sure it is tight, not sure about your prv, I don't have a breakdown of your valve.

[Bob D.]

"The problem is this: the PRV is installed in a ceiling in the basement. Very small access panel in the ceiling. And worse, the PRV is between two joists such that the entire PRV can not spin to get it off the downstream side without it hitting the joists."

The only way to inspect the diaphragm on that PRV is to back off the adjuster screw 100% and take the top hat off (a half dozen screws). From the sound of it there may not be enough head room to disassemble and inspect in place. Trying to reach up in a tight dark space and get the spring and spring washer seated properly with one hand then set the top hat (spring cage) on and start the screws will be a PITA I think.

http://www.watts.com/pdf/1910200.pdf

If his PRV has the bypass feature it does nothing until the backpressure exceeds the inlet pressure, then it allows the backpressure to bleed of into the main. I think he said the main pressure was 110 PSIG.

From the Watts spec sheet:
http://www.watts.com/pdf/es-25aub.pdf

Standard Specifications:
A Water Pressure Reducing Valve with integral strainer shall be installed in the water service pipe near its entrance to the building where supply main pressure exceeds 60psi (413 kPa) to reduce it to 50psi (345 kPa) or lower. The valve shall feature a bronze body suitable for water supply pressures up to 300psi (21 bar). Provision shall be made to permit the bypass flow of water around the valve back into the main when pressures, due to thermal expansion on the outlet side of the valve, exceed the pressure in the main.



The Watts double union model w/solder connections is p/n: 25AUB-S-DU-Z3

[dcw]

Screen was replaced no leaks---still high pitched whining in pipes. BUT, I think I noticed something when I was doing all this messing around with the PRV. The house shut off is about 3 feet before the PRV and while the whistling is going on, I am having a very hard time deciding whether it is coming from the PRV or the shut off valve. :oThe hole in the ceiling is so small it makes it very difficult to guage the direction of the sound. But sound is definitley coming from one of them or both.

So, I now have a shiny screen in the PRV and that did not solve the problem. Since I do have somewhat better access to the shut off valve, I was thinking I could remove the innards of the shut off, clean/replace and then reinstall. Again, space is tight to be doing any soldering/replacement without doing some major drywall work (which I want to avoid because the carpet and room was just finished in the last month.)

As far as taking the spring housing off the PRV to inspect the diaphram, Bob D. is right in that I can not "see" the top of the PRV. So everything from removal of the screws and innards to repalcement of everything would have to be done "blind". I guess I could gorilla glue a mirror to the plywood flooring above and use that.:p

Right now, I'll have to wait a bit to see if the pressure build-up is continuing. That is my bigger fear because that smacks of undoubtedly replacing the PRV. Any one want to hazzard a guess as to whether it is possible that cleaning a screen can stop a PRV from allowing the pressure to continuously build?

The brand of the shut off is Imperial. Are they still in business or made if I want to buy a new one for replacement parts to use on the existing one that is installed.

Also, if I remove the parts of the shut off, will water flow back through the PRV? I know I have to turn the water off at the street but that is below my inside shut off so I won't have anything draining in. But will the house drain through the PRV (if it does I'll have to go through using my shoe-sized container again to keep everything dry):mad:

Thanks again for all the input.

Regards, DAVE

[PLUMBER RICK]

dave, hate to say it, but cleaning the screen is not going to fix the noise unless it was so clogged that the volume of water passing was so restricted that you were starving the system of water.

as far as draining. shut off the main at the meter and use a shop vac/ wet dry to suck out all the water. you can open another fixture to keep from getting a dead end vacuum and it will work real well. the sprinkler fitters/ fire use this trick all the time indoors.

if you really need to, you can buy the same regulator and strip all the parts. the seat is not fun to remove and it's most likely ok. i don't think i ever have seen a bad regulator seat. typically it's an o-ring and the stem it's installed on.

the shut off is not your issue unless it's a washer style globe valve.

get the shop vac and a new regulator.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

[quote=PLUMBER RICK;116122]
you can open another fixture to keep from getting a dead end vacuum and it will work real well. the sprinkler fitters/ fire use this trick all the time indoors.

quote]

Plumbers use this method all the time also, I used it yesterday to repair a leak in the wall, had to solder it, opened the hose bibb in the front of the house, and opened the fixtures upstairs and downstairs, drained the system so I could solder.

[PLUMBER RICK]

as far as draining. shut off the main at the meter and use a shop vac/ wet dry to suck out all the water. you can open another fixture to keep from getting a dead end vacuum and it will work real well. the sprinkler fitters/ fire use this trick all the time indoors.

get the shop vac and a new regulator.

rick.

[quote=PLUMBER RICK;116122]
you can open another fixture to keep from getting a dead end vacuum and it will work real well. the sprinkler fitters/ fire use this trick all the time indoors.

quote]

Plumbers use this method all the time also, I used it yesterday to repair a leak in the wall, had to solder it, opened the hose bibb in the front of the house, and opened the fixtures upstairs and downstairs, drained the system so I could solder.


the shop vac is the trick in his situation as his regulator is the lowest opening. gravity is the key issue and a vacuum defies gravity:duck:

rick.

[dcw]

I just checked the pressure with a guage and I seem to be holding steady at 50 psi. It does not appear to be climbing to 80 after 15 minutes of non-use of water. When I had the screen plug off, I tightened and loosened the adjustment screw on the PRV a couple of times to the maximum extent each way. So, I am crossing my fingers and hoping at least the pressure doesn't keep climbing like it had been to 80-100 after about 15-20 of the water being off. I am not too hopeful but who knows?

Now, as far as the shut off valve, Plumber Rick used the term "washer style globe valve." Hey, how about some English for us stupid lawyers? What is that?

Mine looks like this except the part that turns (handle) faces down:


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ox6dqh_dAjW6XM:http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2002/Oct02_Ask_Handyman/20021001_Ask_Handyman_page004img002.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2002/Oct02_Ask_Handyman/20021001_Ask_Handyman_page004img002.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do%3FcontentId%3D19637&h=292&w=274&sz=15&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=Ox6dqh_dAjW6XM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshut%2Boff%2Bvalve%26gbv%3D2%26svnum% 3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

I assume then by the need for the shop vac that the house WILL drain through the PRV even though the screen plug is in?

Again, thanks for the input. I fear I am approaching the dreaded "I am calling a plumber tommorrow". BUT I AIN'T THERE YET!:D

Regards, DAVE

[PLUMBER RICK]

I just checked the pressure with a guage and I seem to be holding steady at 50 psi. It does not appear to be climbing to 80 after 15 minutes of non-use of water. When I had the screen plug off, I tightened and loosened the adjustment screw on the PRV a couple of times to the maximum extent each way. So, I am crossing my fingers and hoping at least the pressure doesn't keep climbing like it had been to 80-100 after about 15-20 of the water being off. I am not too hopeful but who knows?

Now, as far as the shut off valve, Plumber Rick used the term "washer style globe valve." Hey, how about some English for us stupid lawyers? What is that?

Mine looks like this except the part that turns (handle) faces down:


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ox6dqh_dAjW6XM:http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2002/Oct02_Ask_Handyman/20021001_Ask_Handyman_page004img002.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2002/Oct02_Ask_Handyman/20021001_Ask_Handyman_page004img002.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do%3FcontentId%3D19637&h=292&w=274&sz=15&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=Ox6dqh_dAjW6XM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshut%2Boff%2Bvalve%26gbv%3D2%26svnum% 3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

I assume then by the need for the shop vac that the house WILL drain through the PRV even though the screen plug is in?

Again, thanks for the input. I fear I am approaching the dreaded "I am calling a plumber tommorrow". BUT I AIN'T THERE YET!:D

Regards, DAVE

yes that's a globe valve:eek: the washer can be loose and will whistle/ chatter if the water gets under it. but that will typically happen when the valve is just partially open.

a globe valve is not typically approved for more than 1 fixture.

now we use ball valves. in the old days it was typically a gate valve.

it's ok, my brother in law and sister in law are both lawyers. so i know how to talk slowly and explain this to them:ignore:

rick.

[gear junkie]

Globe valves are designed for throttling water(stick your thumb over garden hose). Not good for stop valves because they impede flow. Ball valves are used as stop valves(on, off). I would replace the globe valve since it's in the same area and the water will already be turned off anyway.

[NHMaster3015]

At high flow rates, globe valves will indeed whistle due to the sudden change of direction through the valve. This causes an area of extreme turbulence between the washer and the seat and downstream of the valve as the flow straightens out again. Interestingly though, I have heard gate valves make a similar noise when not quite fully open and having worn gate ways (cheap valves I suspect) Globe valves should never be used on water mains because of their restrictive nature. The code prohibits their use and mandates a "full port, full open" valve for this application.

As for the PRV, I guess if you are doing the work yourself it may be worth cleaning and rebuilding the thing, but me, I'd just replace it.

[dcw]

Pressure build-up is back !!!:mad::mad::mad:

I noticed on a website the following:
When high house pressure is evident, open a cold water faucet. If your pressure gauge shows immediate drop to the regulated reduced pressure setting it indicates the regulator is operating correctly and that thermal-expansion is the cause of the expanded pressure. For additional detailed information, send for folder F-RV.

Plumber Rick has always been big on the thermal expansion idea so my question is this. The pressure does drop back to a normal level after the short 2-3 second “burst” of water (pressure gauge DOES show immediate drop). Given the above statement (When high pressure is evident, ….), is it possible that a PRV can leak slowly thus causing a slow build-up of pressure? If so, the above statement would be incorrect and I may have a bad PRV after all.

Someone also suggested notching the joist to allow the bell shaped PRV to spin but I am not to keen on that. Plus, to notch the joist I really gotta get up in there and cut drywall. If I cut the drywall to that extent, I really won’t have a problem then taking the PRV apart to get the PRV off the water line.

How about this? If I have to replace the PRV can I leave the old one and install a new one in a "better" location? Thus I would have 2 PRVs. Possibly even OUTSIDE the house in the ground inside one of those green sleeve things (whatever they are called)? Thus, if the old PRV is letting the pressure build up because it is malfunctioning, if I remove any pressure going into the old PRV, who cares if it is malfunctioning? I would just set the old PRV to maximum pressure becuase it can only let the pressure increase to what is coming in. I guess the problem with that is if the whistling is the PRV, installing a 2nd PRV really would be doing nothing to correct that.

Anyway, tonight I will see if I can get the guts out of the shut-off valve, clean it and replace the washer to see if that stops my whistleing issue. If so then I'll have to decide about the pressure build-up and maybe check to see if it really is thermal expansion. Perhaps I did not properly get the hot water heater off-line before. Are there any other sources that would cause thermal expansion besides the water heater? Or what else could cause a build-up of pressure on the downstream side of the PRV? If there is nothing besides the hot water heater, then I got a bad PRV for sure so let me know about installing a 2nd PRV outside near the house.

Fianlly, what is the MAXIMUM one can have the house pressure at before one is risking problems with fittings developing leaks? What is the maximum you would ever set the pressure at in a residential hosue?

Regards, DAVE

[NHMaster3015]

In correct order, from where the water service enters the house you should have.

1 - full port, full open ball or gate valve
(city water, the meter goes here)
2- Backflow preventer
3 - Pressure reducing valve
4 - Thermal expansion tank (ST5)
5 - Service valve, full port, full open

The back flow preventer and the PRV both check water from flowing back into the mains. Because anytime you heat water, it expands, you need an expansion tank in the cold water lines. Back in the dark days before backflow preventers the expansion took place in the house and city mains. Without the tank it is possible and in fact common, for the T&P valve to weep. It is quite possible that your PRV was good all the time and excess hot water pressure is the culprit here. Do yourself a favor and change the globe valve rather than fool around with it. If you can't solder then get hold of a compression one. Make sure it's either a gate or ball valve. Sooner or later when that rubber seat dislodges itself from the valve and ends up plugging something up you'll wish you did.

[PLUMBER JAY]

dcw
please stop fooling around! Sorry there is no really easy fix.

Just cut open the drywall and install a new ball valve and then install a new prv. done (it is not thermal expansion because you eliminated that a couple days ago by turning off your hot water tank and the problem was still there.
If you are unable to soldier call a plumber. In my area it cost around a 150 to get the city to turn the water off and on. so when you get them to shut it off replace the globe valve don't try to fix it.

[Bob D.]

Everybody beat me too what I might have said but there is one thing that hasn't been touched on from your post about the globe valve which I quote in part below:
"Mine looks like this except the part that turns (handle) faces down:"

A globe valve should not be installed in this application but no matter where it is installed it should not be upside down (valve stem facing down). This will just cause problems down the road. If you put a globe back in (not the best choice), then roll it to the side or slightly up from the side. Stem to the top is the preferred position, and then rolled down toward 45° next best, with 90° from vertical the least best of the three. But a ball valve is still the best way to go.

Also, you mentioned 110 PSI at the street earlier, and the PRV cut sheet suggests using two PRVs in series to handle high pressures drops, and I would classify a 50 to 60 PSI drop in this category. Another though is that spring is weak and you it is not possible to get a good pressure setting no matter what you do. The spring could even be cracked, I've taken a few apart and found them with broken springs, but not this particular model.

[gear junkie]

globe valve should not be installed in this application but no matter where it is installed it should not be upside down (valve stem facing down). This will just cause problems down the road. Interesting, I've never heard of this. What specifically is the problem with the upside valve? Does this apply to other valves also(no need to mention swingcheck valve)?

[drtyhands]

Deposits settle in the stem.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Pressure build-up is back !!!:mad::mad::mad:

I noticed on a website the following:
When high house pressure is evident, open a cold water faucet. If your pressure gauge shows immediate drop to the regulated reduced pressure setting it indicates the regulator is operating correctly and that thermal-expansion is the cause of the expanded pressure. For additional detailed information, send for folder F-RV.

Plumber Rick has always been big on the thermal expansion idea so my question is this. The pressure does drop back to a normal level after the short 2-3 second “burst” of water (pressure gauge DOES show immediate drop). Given the above statement (When high pressure is evident, ….), is it possible that a PRV can leak slowly thus causing a slow build-up of pressure? If so, the above statement would be incorrect and I may have a bad PRV after all.

regulators that are going bad will creep up and cause your problem, i rather doubt i said that thermal expansion is the only issue you might have.

Someone also suggested notching the joist to allow the bell shaped PRV to spin but I am not to keen on that. Plus, to notch the joist I really gotta get up in there and cut drywall. If I cut the drywall to that extent, I really won’t have a problem then taking the PRV apart to get the PRV off the water line.

How about this? If I have to replace the PRV can I leave the old one and install a new one in a "better" location? Thus I would have 2 PRVs. Possibly even OUTSIDE the house in the ground inside one of those green sleeve things (whatever they are called)? Thus, if the old PRV is letting the pressure build up because it is malfunctioning, if I remove any pressure going into the old PRV, who cares if it is malfunctioning? I would just set the old PRV to maximum pressure becuase it can only let the pressure increase to what is coming in. I guess the problem with that is if the whistling is the PRV, installing a 2nd PRV really would be doing nothing to correct that.

Anyway, tonight I will see if I can get the guts out of the shut-off valve, clean it and replace the washer to see if that stops my whistleing issue. If so then I'll have to decide about the pressure build-up and maybe check to see if it really is thermal expansion. Perhaps I did not properly get the hot water heater off-line before. Are there any other sources that would cause thermal expansion besides the water heater? Or what else could cause a build-up of pressure on the downstream side of the PRV? If there is nothing besides the hot water heater, then I got a bad PRV for sure so let me know about installing a 2nd PRV outside near the house.

is your property subject to freezing? if so, i doubt you want it outside.

typically a regulator is not staged unless you have large volume needs or real high inlet pressure. neither of which you have. your old regulator will eventually totally fail and the diagphram will rupture. this will cause a leak either through an air hole vent, or the adjusting screw.

Fianlly, what is the MAXIMUM one can have the house pressure at before one is risking problems with fittings developing leaks? What is the maximum you would ever set the pressure at in a residential hosue?
max. pressure into house is 80#. you will lose approx. 1/2psi per foot of elevation and gain 1/2psi below the level of the regulator. actual #is .48# per foot.

Regards, DAVE

even a qualified plumber might need to cut the drywall to access the valve and replace it. a double union regulator is a better choice and so is a ball valve shut off.

rick.

[Bob D.]

Deposits settle in the stem.

Yup, that's why. Gate are better off too if positioned with the stem between 10 and 2 O'clock.

[gear junkie]

Deposits settle in the stem.

Yup, that's why. Gate are better off too if positioned with the stem between 10 and 2 O'clock.
Thanks guys, learned something new today.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Thanks guys, learned something new today.

just 1 thing.

i hope 2 things so you don't end up on the couch tomorrow:D

rick.

[gear junkie]

I had a good nights sleep. I picked out the couch for that very reason.

[row]

a small expansion tank would help or a water hammer arrester, or hydro cell would work to take up the pressure boosts, and shocking to your system. the PRV should just be replaced like mentioned before use double unions just to make your life easier.

[dcw]

Well, I've cracked and a plumber is coming on Wednesday. I was only able to get the handle off the shut off valve and the small nut. Could not get the stem out to clean it.

But I think the whistling is actually coming from a "T" where the water comes in the house. One part of the T turns 90 degrees into the house; the other line continues straight and then turns back outside the house to a hose bibb. That hose bid IS NOT subject to the PRV. When I turn on that outside bibb, I have no whistling whatsoever inside the house no matter what I turn on and no matter what I have the PRV set at. So when all the water has to turn that 90 degrees, I get whistling.

I'll just bite the bullet and get full access to the PRV. I'll put in another access plate or dummy air-return to make it look okay. I better cut the drywall because if I let the plumber do it, it will be a hatchet job or look like the drywall was cut with a butter knife. :D

The plumber did mention putting it outside but it seems the better thing to do would be just get rid of the bad one.

And just so none of you take offense to my comment about a plumber's general drywall skills, here is a lawyer joke:

Three surgeons were sitting at a table having lunch. The first surgeon said, “I find electricians are the best patients to operate on.” The other two doctors asked, “Why so?” The first surgeon responded, “Well when you cut them open, they are like an electrical schematic—all you have to do is reconnect red to red, black to black, close the appropriate circuits, etc. It is very easy.”

The second surgeon said, “I think plumbers make the best patients to cut open.” The other two asked, “How come?” The second surgeon said, “Well, when you cut them open, all you have to do is reconnect the pipes, replace the worn out valves, and solder the joints. Very simple and straightforward”.

The third surgeon sat there for a second and said, “You know, I think lawyers are the best patients to have to operate on.” Naturally the other two said, “Why do you think that?” The third surgeon said, “Well, because a lawyer has only two moving parts. Their mouth and their a-hole and they are both interchangeable.”

DAVE