Increasing my prices.

[Service Guy]

I started my own residential service business last year and I have noticed a common trend.
Price is not the problem, the going out on 'free estimates' and 5-10% of the time getting to a cheapo-HO's house is. 90%+ of my customer's never give me any price-objection as I am a very confident, skilled service plumber who knows all about presentation and professionalism. But the small minority 'price-shoppers' that ask "what's your rate?" on the phone before they even say their name or any other info. are getting on my nerves.
The last straw was a couple of days ago, a nice gentleman called me with a leaky toilet and I made an appointment to meet him within 45 minutes. I show up, put on my shoe-covers and make some small-talk, he shows me the toilet, the fill-valve is leaking, spraying everywhere when it fills, one bolt is holding the toilet down and the other bolt is completely free... the house is 50 years old and I can tell a broken closet flange when I see a toilet that loose.
I tell him I will have to replace the fill-valve and supply, pull the toilet, repair the flange and reset the toilet with a new seal and bolts...problem solved. I tell him I'll be right back and go the truck to get my price-book and make sure I have a new flange. I come in and tell him teh total will be around $226 for all parts and labor.
He immediately says, "THATS TOO HIGH!, all you have to do is reset the toilet with a new seal!"
I say, "Well, I also have to replace the fillvalve and supply, and repair the broken flange which will have to be screwed to the tile and concrete and/or wood underneath, so its actually very reasonable."
He says, "That's way too high, its not that hard, I could do it myself."
I say, "Well what do you think it should be?"
He says, "I don't know, maybe $125?"
I say, "Alright, well if you want to get other bids go ahead, call me if you change your mind."

THATS IT!!! No more free estimates, I haven't decided how much but I am implementing a minimum service charge, trip charge, whatever on EVERY call!

I have been doing service plumbing 10 years and I have noticed that the NUMBER doesn't matter. Customer A will always complain wether you say $200 or $100, customer B will always agree wether its $200 or $100.
Bottom line is this: ITS NOT THE PRICE, ITS THE CUSTOMER! This obvious fact eluded me all these years, but I have finally awoke.
No matter what I charge, 90-95% of my customers will like my service and agree to the terms. And no matter what I charge, 5-10% of my customers will bi*ch and moan.

So I am raising my rate immediately, its time to make some decent money and stop worrying about the price-shoppers out there. They don't contribute anything to my busniess anyway.

P.S.- I bet the guy calls me back after calling around, as I am very competitive for this area, and its happened to me before many times. When he does call, I'll tell him we've had a price-increase.:D

[DuckButter]

He won't call back, for starters he has his ego, but also he'll likely find the neighbors 18 year old that was a "plumber" before he quit and went to work at Burger Kings.
Then weeks later when he see's spots on the ceiling below he'll call someone else to avoid the potential insult to his ego and pay more than you quoted in the first place.
You're right to charge a minimum service fee for scheduled jobs.
ALso, the $226 isn't a bad price at all for a tank rebuild and flange replacement.
Good for you for not folding.

[Service Guy]

Thanks. I never negotiate. Its bad business.

[bigPipe09]

I am with you 100% on this. I've been in business just over a year, and find the small amount of service plumbing that we do is full of price shoppers. After about 6 months we started charging a 50 dollar "dispatch" fee to new customers who were requesting estimates. We only charge this to customers we haven't worked for before, and most have become repeat customers since the first visit. We also waive the fee if we end up getting the job. i find it works pretty good to weed out the price shoppers

I know this will probably garner some criticism from the forum pundits, but as of 2008 we also started charging a 2 hour minimum to our commercial/Industrial clients.

[Crappy days]

I am with you 100% on this. I've been in business just over a year, and find the small amount of service plumbing that we do is full of price shoppers. After about 6 months we started charging a 50 dollar "dispatch" fee to new customers who were requesting estimates. We only charge this to customers we haven't worked for before, and most have become repeat customers since the first visit. We also waive the fee if we end up getting the job. i find it works pretty good to weed out the price shoppers

I know this will probably garner some criticism from the forum pundits, but as of 2008 we also started charging a 2 hour minimum to our commercial/Industrial clients.

Sounds good to me.:way-to-go:

[Frankiarmz]

Why not charge for the service call and if the consumer trys to argue over the price, offer him an instructional video at a fair price. This way after watching he'll appreciate the work involved, or still think he can do it himself. Either way, you made some money and will probably get called back once he realizes the difference between watching someone do a job and doing it yourself. As a homeowner and DIY'er I know the difference between how easy a Pro can make a job seem and actually having the tools in my hands and responsibility on my shoulders. If anything encourage them to save money and give it a go since it doesn't seem like much work for what you want to charge. Once they screw it up your prices won't be so high.

[drtyhands]

I am with you 100% on this. I've been in business just over a year, and find the small amount of service plumbing that we do is full of price shoppers. After about 6 months we started charging a 50 dollar "dispatch" fee to new customers who were requesting estimates. We only charge this to customers we haven't worked for before, and most have become repeat customers since the first visit. We also waive the fee if we end up getting the job. i find it works pretty good to weed out the price shoppers

I know this will probably garner some criticism from the forum pundits, but as of 2008 we also started charging a 2 hour minimum to our commercial/Industrial clients.No argument from me.

[ToUtahNow]

Our "free estimates" were limited to over the phone except for new construction and remodels.

Mark

[tinmack]

Our "free estimates" were limited to over the phone except for new construction and remodels.

Mark

Sounds like a plan. Toilet guy could have been priced on the phone without the trip, as with most price shoppers. What a great deal for them if you actually go out to see them, spend your time and gas, especially if it's raining or a snowstorm. Then they say no to your price Then you have to leave. They never have to move from the house.

They are not worth your time, money, or expertise. Price 'em on the phone and, like others have said, tell them it's a minimum charge of at least an hour. Any time I've called for a repair I assume at least an hour.....does your doctor/dentist/lawyer etc. expect expect to bill you for any less?

You shouldn't either.

[PLUMBER RICK]

anytime i need to look at something for a free estimate, it's on my sch. at a time when i'm in the neighborhood.

if it involves crawling, it's not a free estimate.

truthfully less than 1% of my jobs are an estimate. these are typically jetting buildings where i need to get a c/o count. if i've already jetted the building in the past, i just look at my past estimate and check my real working time. adjust if needed.

i give an estimate before i do the job, but i do the job while i'm there.

rick.

[All Clear Sewer]

I get price-shoppers at least 5 times a day. I know if they are asking for a price then I could tell em it`s free and they would ask me how much am I gonna pay em to work at their house. I get so sick of these tire kickers. 90% of my people never ask for price, they just say HELP ME please! :D

if you want a price I jack it up to cover my butt, if you want me to fix your problem I only charge for my time :D No Free estimate other then, big replacements or on the phone cover my butt price ;)

[DUNBAR]

I go to the foot doctor this morning thinking I'm going to be spending 100's of dollars having a bone spur removed. Been practically limping for months all because I've procrastinated badly.

Get there, $50 later he cuts out a cyst, not a spur and injects me with cortisone! Woooohoooooo!!! If I could get cortisone on the black market I'd do it! (for my knees)


Hour later and I feel like a marathon runner realizing how stoopid I was putting off something so simple. Soooo, I go on a shopping spree with all this money I've saved for the expense of the foot doctor.

$70 gift certificate to the foot doctor to say thank you for treating me so good. He deserved it.


$200 worth of dog food/phones/plastic drop cloths/shop lights and now I'm feeling a little guilty:shocked2:, call comes in.


"Ring ring! Ring ring!"


80 gallon electric water heater replacement, old one coming out is a great deal smaller than the new one going in. She red flags me for charging $10 more for the permit (I do this for my time on the internet filling the application out) because it's par for the course. All I've been doing lately is turning away wather heater calls and since I just wanted to recoup my spending, I feel inclined to give in to temptation.

She tries to commit me to $250 which includes the permit fee. I tell her that haul away is extra, along with any work other than a regular switch out. I should of hung up the phone right there.

We go back and forth a little and she's hesitating to tell me that there's a "pipe" in the way from getting the old one out.

"Is it a gas line or a condensation line?" << Next to the furnace.

"I can't tell. So you're telling me this won't be over 3 hours?"

She totally ignores the confusion regarding that pipe blocking the removal of the heater....

"Yes. 3 hours unless we have to rework/remove piping to get the new water heater in."

"Oooohkay then. My husband says that there's a couple inches that you'll have to get this in. Let me call you back with measurements and let you know from there."

Been an hour; no call. They won't be calling me back because you can tell with the attitude on the other end of the phone..

I gots a fix


From now on, when I get a price shopper over the phone, I usually end up with a home phone number which leads to an address. If it is a cell phone, plan B.

I'll give them a few days to call me back, then I'm releasing the hounds. I'm going to sell their address & phone number to these free coupon websites along with a select few other "not going to mention" sites that are notorious for making litter of your mailbox or phone.

You waste my time, I'll now make a point with a few clicks of a mouse to make sure that you experience what was given to me; a waste a time. Maybe throw in a magazine subscription that says "Bill me later" :grin:

My new program starts today, time they feel my luerve :canoodle:

Very hard to get off those mailing lists once you're on them too. Woot! Woot!

Go ahead and criticize; there'll be silent cheerleaders to my cause that gives precedence to my hardship shared by many. All I wanted to do was pay off my shopping spree DAMN!!!!

[stxrus]

when the tire kickers call i tell them that a simple blockage typically runs between $150.00 and $225.00. if there are complications the cost will probably go up. if they want a "flat rate" it will be $350.00, if i am there for only 1/2 hour or all day.

the "flat rate" is something i've added recently and so far no one has opted for it.

i charge more per hour than my competition and still get out quicker than they do and/or do a more thurough job.

sometimes i loose a job to a plumber with a top snake and a plunger, but more often than not i get the original call or the "my plumber couldn't fix it" call. most don't do cleaning calls.

steve

[Service Guy]

Thanks for the support guys. Around here many people are used to 'free estimates' and complain about paying a trip fee or paying by the hour for drive time. Of course many smart companies are doing it anyway, because traffic is just getting worse and 'windshield' time has to be payed for by somebody.
I am an upfront pricing guy and I hate pricing over the phone because 9 times out of 10, the customer describes the problem totally inaccurately. I actually had a guy tell me on the phone his 'distribution box' needed to be replaced, so I am thinking he has a septic problem, I get out there and he points to his well pump pressure-switch!!!

So I am going with this (for new customers), "There is a $20 fee to come out and inspect the job, we'll give you a price upfront after assessing the work needed. I can't price your particular job without looking at it, but I can tell you that a basic service call is $80." (basic service meaning less than an hour with driving.)
That should weed out the people who just want someone to work for peanuts.
In my experience, as I said before, those types of customer's never end up contributing anything positive to the business anyway, so I'd rather turn them away then let them waste my precious time and gas.

[DUNBAR]

Do the 1/3 1/3 1/3 rule when giving a paid estimate;


20 minutes to the job
20 minutes for the estimate
20 minutes for the trip back

I've given paid estimates and it's funny how they

like to get an hour and a half for an hour estimate.

A lady called monday,

"I'm calling to get a free estimate for my insurance company. When can you come out?"

"Ma'am, we don't do free estimates."

"Well, how much do you charge for an estimate?"

"$70 which is refunded to you when the work is done."

"Well, Thank you for-CLICK!


I hung up on her, felt good like a foot rub.:killingme:

[NHMaster3015]

$250.00 to change a water heater? For that price you might as well just give her the damn thing and the shirt off your back as well. Hell I don't know about you but we pay 200 for the heater in the first place and If there's anyone nuts enough to think that I'd install it for 50 bucks they can go $#t in their hat.

[DUNBAR]

$250.00 to change a water heater? For that price you might as well just give her the damn thing and the shirt off your back as well. Hell I don't know about you but we pay 200 for the heater in the first place and If there's anyone nuts enough to think that I'd install it for 50 bucks they can go $#t in their hat.



Where can you buy a 80 gal elec, 12 year warranty for $200?

You find me a source and I'll start installing heaters again.

Labor only, including a $35 permit, extra for haul away and anything
above and beyond a easy switchout.

That's the "catch" I embed into my statements because when I give a

flat rate quote of $300-$400 for a changeout, they freak out completely and run to the next plumber.

Sooooo......I throw the hourly rate at them, tell them to expect 2-3 hours figuring the pickup of the heater, installing it and bringing the old one home for a disposal fee,,,,definitely 3 hours. Throwing caution to the wind leaves a fixed number OUT of the equation hoping they grab the idea instead of just working off a number and trying to go down. BTW, they never called back.

Back in 87 I could buy a water heater for $125, put it in for $75 plus $20 for parts.

:angry:

[Service Guy]

$250.00 to change a water heater? For that price you might as well just give her the damn thing and the shirt off your back as well. Hell I don't know about you but we pay 200 for the heater in the first place and If there's anyone nuts enough to think that I'd install it for 50 bucks they can go $#t in their hat.

I think the HO had already bought a water heater. Thats how I understood it anyway. I am around $300 to install a customer-supplied electric WH.

[Service Guy]

"Well, how much do you charge for an estimate?"

"$70 which is refunded to you when the work is done."


Dunbar thats not a bad idea, but I would lose EVERY new customer to competition if I did that. People around here will not pay $70 just to found out the cost. I wish. If I were already established maybe, but I NEED new customers since I have only been at it less than a year.

Even my $20 'trip fee' idea will be enough to turn away the 'bottom-dwellers' who only want cheap handymen to do the work. I am afraid to go too high and scare off EVERYONE!

Its a damn double-edged sword!:banghead:

[DUNBAR]

Dunbar thats not a bad idea, but I would lose EVERY new customer to competition if I did that. People around here will not pay $70 just to found out the cost. I wish. If I were already established maybe, but I NEED new customers since I have only been at it less than a year.

Even my $20 'trip fee' idea will be enough to turn away the 'bottom-dwellers' who only want cheap handymen to do the work. I am afraid to go too high and scare off EVERYONE!

Its a damn double-edged sword!:banghead:


But remember this,


The phone rings during your estimate......do you answer it?

OR

Does the person back at the shop know to talk the talk to keep the customer inclined to buy until you're done? People love talking to the one who knows....

that's a fact. The secretary is going to be shuffling most times unless he or she plays a very active role in the profession. They're return questions to the customer will definitely tell you if they know the score.


Remember that there are people whizzing down that list of plumbers until they hear something that sounds right to them.....willing to commit.


You can't work for $20 an hour as a plumber, especially when they point out a screwed up fill valve in the toilet when they lift the lid...

You take a brief second and bend the float arm to drop the float ball so the water level is an 1" below the top of the overflow tube.

Now, you're the man with the plan because you fixed that nagging leak in the toilet for $20 UNTIL

they call 3 days later, the toilet is leaking more than before and now you own the repair to put a new fill valve in.

Of course, you're not "supposed" to bend that float arm rod but you find me a plumber who hasn't done that at some point in their career and I'll bet they're following the railroad rule; lie, lie, then deny. :rotflmao1:


Read ToUtahNow's signature line at the bottom of his posts. You'd be better off cold-calling customers in the white pages than driving around town for peanuts.

Puts the truck in the neighborhood but what happens is people talk! You get sent home with your tail between your legs you can forget that immediate area for future business!

I held on to my first year invoices as a reminder of what happens when you underbid to get your hands moving.......horrible transactions where I did hours of work and didn't make nearly anything. The pain sent me to Dr. Phil one year. :wave3:

[Herk]

I charge a $38 "diagnostic fee," if I don't have to disassemble anything. Some other flat rate companies charge as much as $79 in this area for the same thing. I tell them that on the phone - never quote prices on a sight-unseen job. Usually, they just say, "Oh, that's all right. You can't go out for nothing."

So far, I haven't had to collect the diagnostic fee, since it's waived if I do the job. Maybe my flat rate prices are too low . . ?

[Crappy days]

Monday through Friday 8 am to 5pm free estimates at my convenience. If the customer cannot wait oh well. Minimum for a water heater install is 450.00 plus parts ,includes hauling the old heater away. Any thing lower you might as well install for home depot as they charge 300.00 plus part for basic install.

:rolleyes:

[Service Guy]

But remember this,


The phone rings during your estimate......do you answer it?

OR

Does the person back at the shop know to talk the talk to keep the customer inclined to buy until you're done? People love talking to the one who knows....

that's a fact. The secretary is going to be shuffling most times unless he or she plays a very active role in the profession. They're return questions to the customer will definitely tell you if they know the score.


Remember that there are people whizzing down that list of plumbers until they hear something that sounds right to them.....willing to commit.


You can't work for $20 an hour as a plumber, especially when they point out a screwed up fill valve in the toilet when they lift the lid...

You take a brief second and bend the float arm to drop the float ball so the water level is an 1" below the top of the overflow tube.

Now, you're the man with the plan because you fixed that nagging leak in the toilet for $20 UNTIL

they call 3 days later, the toilet is leaking more than before and now you own the repair to put a new fill valve in.

Of course, you're not "supposed" to bend that float arm rod but you find me a plumber who hasn't done that at some point in their career and I'll bet they're following the railroad rule; lie, lie, then deny. :rotflmao1:


Read ToUtahNow's signature line at the bottom of his posts. You'd be better off cold-calling customers in the white pages than driving around town for peanuts.

Puts the truck in the neighborhood but what happens is people talk! You get sent home with your tail between your legs you can forget that immediate area for future business!

I held on to my first year invoices as a reminder of what happens when you underbid to get your hands moving.......horrible transactions where I did hours of work and didn't make nearly anything. The pain sent me to Dr. Phil one year. :wave3:

Alright Dunbar, you've got me thinking and you're absolutely right. No free estimates, a service call is $80 minimum, PERIOD. No ifs, ands or buts. If they don't like it, they're not worth it. I am tired of driving around doing 'estimates', I don't do estimates, I am a service plumber, I DO SERVICE.

[Service Guy]

That will be my signature to help burn it in my brain!:thumbup:

[tinmack]

You go GUY........

[NHMaster3015]

sorry, not 80 gallon, 40 gallon electric. We buy them 40 at a time for a shade under 200 ea.

[PLUMBER RICK]

sorry, not 80 gallon, 40 gallon electric. We buy them 40 at a time for a shade under 200 ea.

we use very little electrics here.

out of curiosity, what does a 40 or 50 gas run you guys.

with our new lo nox scaqmd (southern calif. air quality management dist.) requirement, they are costing us $430- 460 plus tax. in fact most 30's are more expensive than a 40.

rick.

5 years ago i was paying $110-150.

[Service Guy]

Standard vent 40 gallon natural gas...around $360+tax.

[DUNBAR]

Alright Dunbar, you've got me thinking and you're absolutely right. No free estimates, a service call is $80 minimum, PERIOD. No ifs, ands or buts. If they don't like it, they're not worth it. I am tired of driving around doing 'estimates', I don't do estimates, I am a service plumber, I DO SERVICE.


I understand that the beginning is tough, I know that it is real easy to "cave-in" to temptation but here is where I screwed up:


I priced my work to get it, that's what could of sunk me instantly. Every job I took with large numbers, I truly did end up working for $20/hour.


There's no way to get around the learning curve when you've just entered the scene for the first time. You'll find out real quick from the business side that everyone wants to tell you how to spend your money (advertising moguls) and you get the luxury of basically employing people just like yourself in business.

You'll make some good relationships and you'll make enemies without even trying; just say no to a buddy or relation, friend that's trying to sell you something and watch how they've crawled from the woodwork, only to disappear because you said no.

If you're building inventory, sell the stuff you don't need, dead product, sell it on ebay and buy the common stuff so you can live off the good deals in inventory you buy in bulk, mark it up to strengthen that hourly rate.

Capital/borrowed money can be dangerous in the beginning; lump sums can show you how quickly you can make mistakes. Mistakes like thinking certain avenues of advertising work, when they don't. Not committing to a decent cell phone plan. Worrying about keeping every single city happy when it comes to occupational licenses. Letting your tax paperwork get way behind even though you know that your humble beginnings are going to be losses.

The IRS does understand this, but you start moving money into personal accounts, you will get branded in a horrible way and that's what instills fear thanks to the gubbament.

Remember that cash flow is important, cash itself is a devil's worship; manage it wisely but understand you can't show unmarked income to a degree into a business unless it's borrowed or lent to you. Meaning, You cannot run cash jobs not yielding receipts of where it's coming from, paying your bills with cash and watching a business checking account go nearly dormant. They'll know you're making money and living off it, they want proof.

Just walk the line, know when to step over it and don't go hog wild with side jobs. People want to pay me cash all the time and it's nice to a degree, but most times I'll say no because it bangs up my records, puts my liability of the work I did into question, disturbs the full equation of whether I'm a legit business or not.

When you're in a customer's home, you better be doing 2 things;

Completing the task at hand that brought you there

and

Having damn near everything on that truck when you see something broken, missing, fouling, leaking in that house. People don't mind spending another $15, $25, $50-$100 if you can convince them "while I'm here" that you've got the plumbing supply house right out in your driveway, I can fix it for a very reasonable price.

Use the slant that a separate call for that one task is quite a bit more expensive, kill all birds with one stone.

People will spend more money comfortably at their home if they see the instant results of your repair. When you replace that aerator that is either missing or screwing up badly, spritzing water all directions but down, whip out that plumber's grease and coat those fine threads, let them know you care enough that the application gives them the ability to safely remove that aerator down the road because calcium kept them from replacing it in the first place!

Same as a floor drain cover; keep all sizes on the truck, common ones are you're friend in the business for tacking an easy $15 onto the bill before you leave. Just buy that Rubberize-it product and coat the new ones; the old ones you know are rusted badly, plastic ones suck *** and yours can't be bought because you made it that way, made to not rust with the rubber coating.

Make the best of your time in the house; people ignore a lot in their homes when it comes to plumbing. Not all, but the majority.

You have to be a salesman in your profession and you're ability to sell anything from a stainless steel mesh guard for drains to an index cap on a faucet handle, a lint trap on a washing machine can add up quickly when you do your YTD balance sheets and notice how much of that inventory packed a punch when it came to adding to the bill.

[tinmack]

You have to be a salesman in your profession and you're ability to sell anything from a stainless steel mesh guard for drains to an index cap on a faucet handle, a lint trap on a washing machine can add up quickly when you do your YTD balance sheets and notice how much of that inventory packed a punch when it came to adding to the bill.


Probably the most useful thing noted in this thread. You can be the most awesome plumber/drain cleaner/whatever in the world but if you can't sell your work/charge properly for it/get paid for it then you're gonna fail.

I almost wonder whether most guys/shops would be more successful if they had a full-time sales person taking care of all the estimating/phone/billing/etc. and just left the plumbing to the plumber(s).

That way when someone's gonna *****, you can blame the other guy and vice versa........

[Service Guy]

I understand all that. The sales stuff I mean. I can sell, but its hard for me to charge what I 'm worth sometimes when competing with idiot 'plumbers' doing sloppy work and charging the customer 'bankrupt' wages.:mad: Many people are shocked when they find out i cost more than their 'handyman' buddy they usually use.
Luckily the inspectors are finally starting to get stricter in this area, trying to get rid of all the fly-by-nights that flood the market.

[DuckButter]

Dunbar, I had a similar first year.
The second year I spent a load of time pointing the first year price shoppers referrals elsewhere.
One woman called me 4 times during a job, demanding I drop what I was doing and get right over because her religion didn't allow her not to cook and her kitchen sink wasn't working...despite the fact that she'd tried to cut me on the agreed price the last time I'd done some work for her, after the work was done.
I finally told her flat out to call another plumber.

Lesson learned, you build a business on repeats, referrals & word of mouth, birds of a feather flock together.
In other words...
Cheapy bargain hunters will refer you tons of business, to other cheapy bargain hunters.

Service guy, glad you found this place, looks like you fit right in...welcome.

TinMack...ye gads....what an avitar!!!

[Service Guy]

The second year I spent a load of time pointing the first year price shoppers referrals elsewhere.
One woman called me 4 times during a job, demanding I drop what I was doing and get right over because her religion didn't allow her not to cook and her kitchen sink wasn't working...despite the fact that she'd tried to cut me on the agreed price the last time I'd done some work for her, after the work was done.
I finally told her flat out to call another plumber.

Lesson learned, you build a business on repeats, referrals & word of mouth, birds of a feather flock together.
In other words...
Cheapy bargain hunters will refer you tons of business, to other cheapy bargain hunters.



very wise words, I like your attitude duckbutter.:)

[drtyhands]

Dunbar, I had a similar first year.
The second year I spent a load of time pointing the first year price shoppers referrals elsewhere.
One woman called me 4 times during a job, demanding I drop what I was doing and get right over because her religion didn't allow her not to cook and her kitchen sink wasn't working...despite the fact that she'd tried to cut me on the agreed price the last time I'd done some work for her, after the work was done.
I finally told her flat out to call another plumber.

Lesson learned, you build a business on repeats, referrals & word of mouth, birds of a feather flock together.
In other words...
Cheapy bargain hunters will refer you tons of business, to other cheapy bargain hunters.

Service guy, glad you found this place, looks like you fit right in...welcome.

TinMack...ye gads....what an avitar!!!
Tinmack,I love it,reminds me of so many of my vacations.Free food and plenty of time to catch up on my sleep.He looks better than I ever did:D

[tinmack]

Tinmack,I love it,reminds me of so many of my vacations.Free food and plenty of time to catch up on my sleep.He looks better than I ever did:D


He looks better than I did some Saturday/Sunday mornings in the past........

[NHMaster3015]

A bit of advice. Never, Never try to compete with the hacks and the station wagon plumbers. Do uncompromizingly good work, be on time, be neat and be patient. If you build it, they will come

[DUNBAR]

sorry, not 80 gallon, 40 gallon electric. We buy them 40 at a time for a shade under 200 ea.


Don't tell me you're buying American mfg. water heaters at that price.

You can't get me to install one of those; cheap, don't last, their cover names are Craftmaster and Whirlpool.

Been around the block to know those are the cheapest.

Hopefully you are mentioning A.O. SMITH or STATE, Rheem or Ruud.


40 gallon heaters are just not a good application in my area, neither is the 30's. Standard is 50 and up given households with more than 2-5 people on average.

It seems like people house-pool like they car-pool given the times of economy and the cost of living.

Condos though keep those lower gallon type heaters in biz though.

I loved switching out 30 gallon gas heaters; easy to switch out and even if it was full of sediment, still reasonable to pull up steps.

[Herk]

Every job I took with large numbers, I truly did end up working for $20/hour.

That may be an unfortunate way to phrase it.

Twenty smackers per hour isn't a terrible wage. But did you work for $20 per hour, or did you work for $20 per hour that you could apply to your ever-descending business expenses?

Plumbers who do everything (not you!) from new construction to remodeling to service seldom crunch the numbers to realize that they aren't making any money on the service. In fact, they may think that if they charge $65 per hour, they're making MORE than they make on their bid jobs.

But since the expenses are so very much higher in service, from windshield time to the number of phone calls per hour of work to advertising and so on, these guys actually throw away some of the money they made on the bid jobs. They do service work at a net LOSS.

The money you get per hour, of course, is not your income. Your income is what's left after paying the bills for COGS and overhead.

When I hear that local plumbers have sewer machines and cameras and so on and they charge $65 per hour and $65 to clean a mainline, I can only wonder how long they will be around, and hope it isn't too long.

[Service Guy]

A bit of advice. Never, Never try to compete with the hacks and the station wagon plumbers. Do uncompromizingly good work, be on time, be neat and be patient. If you build it, they will come

Oh, believe me I don't! I have actually had that conversation before.
HO: "well last time I had this done, it only costs X dollars."

ME: "Ma'am, if I charged that much I would be out of business!":eek:

Funny thing is, it usually works! I guess they like the straight honesty. Either that or they are bluffing just to get me to come down and the 'other' plumber is imaginary.;)

[Herk]

Either that or they are bluffing just to get me to come down and the 'other' plumber is imaginary.;)

Y'know - this is a very common thing. People like to scream about how much a previous plumber charged them for a specific job. But if you have ever asked to see that plumber's invoice, they never know where it is, can never find it. I think that more often they had a plumber do something and their memory of the event isn't accurate. Either it was much longer ago than they remember ("I just bought that water heater two years ago!"), or there were a number of things done and they remember only one, or in the case of the cheaper job, it may not even have been a plumber, or not the one they remember.

Customer memory seems to be extremely selective.

[Bogart]

I was at 90 bucks an hour before I closed up shop. To really make money, I should have flat rated. I went to work for a mechanical contractor. For industrial clients he charges the same 90 for me, plus 20 for my service van. The odd residential client we kept, he charges 100 an hour, no van charge. We try and slough off the resi clients though, we tell them they are taking me away from big jobs, so it will be a 4 hour or 8 hour invoice. Quite a few still schedule appointments.

[DUNBAR]

If I hear of a plumber gouging a customer for $749 to replace a kitchen sink faucet again in my area....I'll spend a few grand to expose his exploitation of customers trusting plumbers to be reasonable in charging.

I'm already getting the ripple effect of his stupidity, I also have 2 of his receipts where I scanned/copied his beligerent screwing. That proof along with a nice friendly flyer in his hometown will certainly be his loss, my gain.


You want to screw customers over with the classification of being a plumber? Welcome to my world of being vindictive/retaliatory settling the score. I can do that because I'm running with a stellar reputation of being honest, not the cheapest, reliable without needing gauze and bandaids after you write the check.

[Service Guy]

If I hear of a plumber gouging a customer for $749 to replace a kitchen sink faucet again in my area....I'll spend a few grand to expose his exploitation of customers trusting plumbers to be reasonable in charging.

I'm already getting the ripple effect of his stupidity, I also have 2 of his receipts where I scanned/copied his beligerent screwing. That proof along with a nice friendly flyer in his hometown will certainly be his loss, my gain.


You want to screw customers over with the classification of being a plumber? Welcome to my world of being vindictive/retaliatory settling the score. I can do that because I'm running with a stellar reputation of being honest, not the cheapest, reliable without needing gauze and bandaids after you write the check.


You seem to forget that we live in a capitalist society. Contracting is just that: a contract between two people. you can't control what your competition charges. If their customer's agree to it then its cool. I don't care if he charged a million dollars to put the faucet in. If someone agrees to it, then its fair.

If he's much higher than everyone else in town, eventually he'll be out of customers all on his own.

[DUNBAR]

If he's much higher than everyone else in town, eventually he'll be out of customers all on his own.


So if you trust me to cut your grass, knowing me and all from the forum and seeing me in town, that when I tell you I'll send the bill with your head nodding,

It's okay for me to make-a-price because I'll spin it as it's ordinary in our capitalist society. You'll pay it, it's your bill because you was trusting your local tradesman, which was really stupid.

And you wander why people can't trust service providers. My shining example is why we get brow-beat on price, constantly because a few ****tards in the bunch showboats and produces victims, the rest of us work as hard honest plumbers making a living without causing undo harm to our customers because we have an moral judgement to adhere to.


It's in all the professions, they stay around for quite a while because the exposure can't reach the consumer fast enough to protect them. I'm on their side and I always will be. I'm one of them.

[Service Guy]

So if you trust me to cut your grass, knowing me and all from the forum and seeing me in town, that when I tell you I'll send the bill with your head nodding,

It's okay for me to make-a-price because I'll spin it as it's ordinary in our capitalist society. You'll pay it, it's your bill because you was trusting your local tradesman, which was really stupid.

And you wander why people can't trust service providers. My shining example is why we get brow-beat on price, constantly because one ****tard in the bunch showboats and produces victims, the rest of us work as hard honest plumber making a living without causing undo harm to our customers because we have an agenda.

No, the price should always be discussed beforehand...wether hourly or flat-rate. Its the law. Without discussing price, there is no binding contract.

[DUNBAR]

No, the price should always be discussed beforehand...wether hourly or flat-rate. Its the law. Without discussing price, there is no binding contract.


So if the customer trusts you to treat them fairly without paperwork or contractual price, the plumber can literally rape the customer at their heart's desire.

Is that your method of operation, the ability to screw if the customer doesn't make that legal transaction legal?

[Service Guy]

So if the customer trusts you to treat them fairly without paperwork or contractual price, the plumber can literally rape the customer at their heart's desire.

Is that your method of operation, the ability to screw if the customer doesn't make that legal transaction legal?

You don't seem to unerstand. The contract is binding to BOTH parties. If the plumber isn't upfront about his prices, then the customer is not obligated to pay ANYTHING AT ALL! And if there is nothing in writing, then the plumber will have a hard time getting paid.

[DuckButter]

If I hear of a plumber gouging a customer for $749 to replace a kitchen sink faucet again in my area....I'll spend a few grand to expose his exploitation of customers trusting plumbers to be reasonable in charging.

First, what kind of faucet was this?
There are some very high end, pricey gadgets on the market.
If thats for a standard Delta, Moen, Am standrd...dayum...I'm freaking cheap!
Are you absolutely certain thats all the work he did?
No soldering new stops?...water filter?...drainage repairs?
Are you absolutely certain you got the WHOLE story?
Finally, I'd leave it alone...prices like this ensure you more business.
Open adversity might get your tires slashed (literally or proverbially)...a guy creepy enough to bill someone this much for maybe 1 or 1-1/2 hours (I figure around $550 - $600 after stock) is capable of more creepy stuff...imo.

[Service Guy]

So if the customer trusts you to treat them fairly without paperwork or contractual price, the plumber can literally rape the customer at their heart's desire.
If there is no paperwork or at least verbal contractual price, then there is NO business transaction. Technically, the plumber just did work for free.:D

[ToUtahNow]

This is kind of a catch-22. We all hate the HO who calls a half a dozen plumbers shopping costs but can you blame them with all of the variations in billing amounts? The HO is a lay person and may not know the going price for work so to say we agreed on a price when the HO is clueless isn't really fair.

I don't have a problem with a plumber charging $749 to install a kitchen faucet on flat-rate as long as he tells the HO he is being billed 4-hours at $150 per hour plus $149 for the faucet. Then when the plumber is done whether it took him a half hour or six hours the HO knows what he paid for.

Mark

[Service Guy]

This is kind of a catch-22. We all hate the HO who calls a half a dozen plumbers shopping costs but can you blame them with all of the variations in billing amounts? The HO is a lay person and may not know the going price for work so to say we agreed on a price when the HO is clueless isn't really fair.

I don't have a problem with a plumber charging $749 to install a kitchen faucet on flat-rate as long as he tells the HO he is being billed 4-hours at $150 per hour plus $149 for the faucet. Then when the plumber is done whether it took him a half hour or six hours the HO knows what he paid for.

Mark

I agree. Well put.

[DUNBAR]

First, what kind of faucet was this?
There are some very high end, pricey gadgets on the market.
If thats for a standard Delta, Moen, Am standrd...dayum...I'm freaking cheap!
Are you absolutely certain thats all the work he did?
No soldering new stops?...water filter?...drainage repairs?
Are you absolutely certain you got the WHOLE story?
Finally, I'd leave it alone...prices like this ensure you more business.
Open adversity might get your tires slashed (literally or proverbially)...a guy creepy enough to bill someone this much for maybe 1 or 1-1/2 hours (I figure around $550 - $600 after stock) is capable of more creepy stuff...imo.


LOL!! I'm glad you responded DB because I figured someone sooner or later would ask me the specifics.

Service guy, you're painting yourself into a corner real quick condoning the actions of a thief, not a plumber. You're hedging on specifics that you know to a consumer is a he said/she said oral contract that any plumber can curtail in print a justification to hammer a pounding. At some point you have to think on behalf of the ignorance of your customer, protect them as you would HOPE someone would have the gumption to protect you if you wasn't aware that your willingness to trust leaves you vulnerable.


The first job was at a rental property, wall mount 8" center kitchen sink faucet he bought at Doit Hardware for $21 just like I bought 3 others in the same building.

How do I know this? Because this guy didn't "charge" to clean up, instead he left the box the old faucet in the bottom of this metal sink base.

He used galvanized close nipples to install the new faucet into the wall,

He knew that cheap faucet has extremely soft rubber washers in them and that it's a matter of months, not years those go bad. What do you expect for a $21 faucet????

I took the faucet off the wall for a slight leak on the right side, saw the galvanized nipples already trying to carmelize/restrict their original opening and used BRASS like a plumber who gives a **** should.

I rebuilt this nearly new faucet, used those hard composition washers that wear like iron and won't have me back like a black rubber washer will.

The stops were those long stemmed stop valves that were leaking at the packings. Didn't hurt anything being a steel base but of course, it's improper.

This second faucet two cities north is a Delta 400 kitchen sink faucet. That's it. At the most for cost to you and me, $79 and that's a stretch at best.

I have a copy of the receipt for the first one, the guy I'm working for friday told me I could have a copy of the receipt and the box/old faucet because apparently $700+ dollars isn't enough for cleanup/haul away for a 4 pound faucet.


I've got the bird's eye view to all of this because I'm witnessing the product installed, the garbage left behind and the outrageous bill that he threatens to collect on......which they pay given what they feel is limited choices not to.


He operates like he knows how to do it quite well, I want to spoil his fun at this point with the welcoming wagon of consumers I stand to gain in his pitfall, finally.

Plumbers shouldn't be classified as car salesman blowing people's heads off their shoulders trying to get top dollar for a product or service, playing the coulda shoulda woulda game.

Ignorance is bliss of the laws and rules but if your moral turpitude sinks this low to play the game, you'll have enemies like me crawling the same ground.

[Service Guy]

I am not condoning his actions.
Its all a simple matter of business law. If these laws were broken, then the customer shouldn't have to pay.
From what you desribed, it sounds like the customer was taken advantage of. They may or may not have a case depending on how the transaction occurred.

On a personal level, I agree with you Dunbar. But this is a legal issue, and your original post didn't mention any specifics. You just stated you were mad that a competitor was charging more than you felt is justified.

[DuckButter]

This is kind of a catch-22. We all hate the HO who calls a half a dozen plumbers shopping costs but can you blame them with all of the variations in billing amounts? The HO is a lay person and may not know the going price for work so to say we agreed on a price when the HO is clueless isn't really fair.

I don't have a problem with a plumber charging $749 to install a kitchen faucet on flat-rate as long as he tells the HO he is being billed 4-hours at $150 per hour plus $149 for the faucet. Then when the plumber is done whether it took him a half hour or six hours the HO knows what he paid for.

Mark
Perfect.
There are extremes to both sides.
When I'd just started out, I'd get excited over a call...at one point I had a fella working me off another plumber to replace a silcock...consecutively calling me, then him, then me.
He called me back one last time to tell me the other guy was willing to do it for $65..WITH stock.
The other fella now has a regular who will always expect cheap.

Experiences like this started to give me a jaded outlook.
Experiences like a $749 KS faucet replace will have the same effect on homeowners.

There are the homeowners that work plumbers over like a snake oil salesman...only to complain the work was inadequate or sloppy once they find some hack willing to do it at their price.
Of course, they usually seem to forget the fact that they had 15 estimates for a water heater before settling for the lowest bid when the wetspot appears on the floor 3 months later.
Seems like the same people repeatedly make that same mistake over and over and over again.
Reasonable prices, reasonable work...
I work my tail off when I get a reasonable customer.
Got a call just today about a water heater, first sentence she asked was about how much I charge.
5 minutes later...
Not one question about what heater I use, what warranty, or how quickly I could get there...she was only concerned with price.
If she were in an area where she might be financially challenged I'd understand.
This woman lives in one of the highest income per capita towns in my state...I overbid by $300, she rushed me off the phone.

IF my estimation of her had been wrong, then I'd have cut the price on the job...I've done it before when I saw a customer I'd like repeat business from and knew my price was high.

[DUNBAR]

I am not condoning his actions.
Its all a simple matter of business law. If these laws were broken, then the customer shouldn't have to pay.


Service Guy,


Black and white, simple huh?


Would you happen to be the insurance guy who shows up after a tornado that blows a whole town to pieces, people lose everything of their most valued posessions

and hover over the damage with your clipboard and say

"Sorry, but you didn't buy enough coverage. I'm sorry but I wish I could do something for you."


There's a reality to my bringing this discussion to light. I see people pay triple to 5 times the market average in my area and I call it theft by deception, completely.

That's why there's KARMA, there's an implied thought process that when you prey on one's vulnerabilities, it will come back to you as payback. I truly believe this.


If you want to be a respectable plumber, don't drill into the community that you can't be trusted without the legal representation.


There are still some of us out there that can be trusted on a handshake or nod of the head without having to tell the world how we stole from them.


DB I had a customer squawk at me for wanting $115 for a Delta PB cartridge replacement on a tub/shower faucet this morning. There is a possible chance the wife was calling behind the husband's back because he couldn't fix it. A call to him or either my price probably got him either someone cheaper or the discipline to honor the wife's repeated asking. 20 minutes and that's dragging it, I always give them advice and answers to anything they want because they paid for the hour, not the task. I'll have them ask questions till they stop, ask me to leave.

Got a guy I have to call back that wants a price on a tankless install; damn near every one of them have not a clue what all is involved in doing the conversion on those from a tank. You want it?

I already know he's going to freak out with the price.....if it was new construction, a lot easier but conversions involve time and lots of it. They never believe me that I have to use specific flue piping for the application. They want to use the PVC (NOT) or into a chimney which isn't a option.

[Service Guy]

Got a call just today about a water heater, first sentence she asked was about how much I charge.
5 minutes later...
Not one question about what heater I use, what warranty, or how quickly I could get there...she was only concerned with price.


I hate those calls too.

Me: "Hello, this is So-and-So Plumbing, how can I help you?"

H.O.: "Yes, how much do you charge for a water heater?"
:barf:

No name mentioned, no courtesy, just price-shopping.

[Service Guy]

I understand where you're coming from Dunbar. If you feel its your responsibility to save the homeowners from this corrupt thief of a plumber, then go right ahead.

[DuckButter]

Dunbar,
The details come down to worse case scenario...this guy's a shyster.
$750 for a cheesy hardware store faucet, connected with galvy....ouch.
I'd advise the customer to look into small claims, using the fact that he used illegal steel connections on potable (assuming your code states such).
I still say you have nothing to gain in waging open war with him...you likely have alot more to lose than him.
His reputation is what will sink his ship...float yours.

[DuckButter]

Got a guy I have to call back that wants a price on a tankless install; damn near every one of them have not a clue what all is involved in doing the conversion on those from a tank. You want it?

I already know he's going to freak out with the price.....if it was new construction, a lot easier but conversions involve time and lots of it. They never believe me that I have to use specific flue piping for the application. They want to use the PVC (NOT) or into a chimney which isn't a option.
Get a local price for a Rinnai...the vents are much less than others, unit is reliable and surprisingly cheap by comparison.
You either take this job or I'm gonna haunt you for the next 6 months!
LOL...Tankless's aren't all that bad....just mindful to size them right, don't just assume the openly stated rating is what will work mid january...the ratings openly stated are usually best case scenario at a 40 or 50 degree temp rise.(70 incoming water temp)
I work with customers...hit them hard with the price to get it out of the way & in the open.
Then we grab a summer gas bill...rough it by scraping 30% off that and add up how long it takes to make back the money.
It usually breaks close to even within 10 years...they generally have to want the tankless for the endless hot water feature, not quite so much for immediate savings.
The feds are still offering the $300 tax credit (I think...haven't done one yet this year), add that into the math.

[DUNBAR]

Dunbar,
The details come down to worse case scenario...this guy's a shyster.
$750 for a cheesy hardware store faucet, connected with galvy....ouch.
I'd advise the customer to look into small claims, using the fact that he used illegal steel connections on potable (assuming your code states such).
I still say you have nothing to gain in waging open war with him...you likely have alot more to lose than him.
His reputation is what will sink his ship...float yours.


This guy has been in business for years, last of the old generation plumbers. He's ripped off so many people that I think he has to gouge as he's a dog that only eats randomly, not regularly. That evens the score.


That first customer I did work for......netted almost 8 grand of work from them. This second guy I'm sure held me as "commendable" for trying to help him out over the phone last friday. That was a payback consideration on his end.

I've done work behind this guy on other occaisions but lately he's pushing the wire.

He'll continue unless he's stopped, my justification with what a little print on paper can help the ending. If you and I rip off a customer, you and I deserve public scrutiny; it's the public that employs us.


If the guy did what Mark implied to, given the customer the awareness to commit a number, wouldn't matter if the number was 5 grand.....it's the method that has me bent out of whack when a fellow plumber like myself is tarnishing my profession.

I couldn't do it to another person and justify the reason.

[cpw]

As a homeowner, I would tell you that depending on the kind of work I would expect a free estimate.You'll certainly get some companies with free estimates that make up for the "freeness" of the estimate by charging a lot and hoping someone bites, but I've found that if you get 3-4 estimates you can generally get someone who will be good [you can often get a feel for the quality of the work based on talking with the person] for a reasonable price.

I do sometimes try to negotiate downward (about 10%), but would never try getting something like 50% off in your example ($250 to $125). If someone quotes me twice as much as they are willing to do the job for, then I probably don't want to hire them.

For service calls like fixing a broken toilet, I fully expect to pay for your time to come out and diagnose the problem [say a minimum charge of about $80]; which either requires skill that I don't have, or is itself a reasonable portion of the work. Over the phone I will definitely ask you your hourly rate though to make sure that it is inline.

For more "luxury" type things, I will want a free estimate. Case in point. When I moved into my house I wanted to upgrade from a 40 to an 80 gallon water tank on my System 2000 boiler [the 40 didn't fill our oversized tub fully]. I called a local one-man plumber and my oil company. The local plumber came out, and called me the next day saying he couldn't get the tank designed for the system without a factory certification. My oil company wanted to tee the oil line and install a completely separate burner just for hot water at a cost of $3400 - not to mention they would love to sell another $285/yr 24/7 service agreement in addition to the one for the main boiler. I ended up going with a larger local company (the kind that runs dozens of trucks), after an estimate over the phone for $1800 to replace the 40 gallon tank with an 80.

From my point of view, I wasn't going to pay $80 to find out how much the real job would cost me.

As an aside, when I had a problem with a pop-up drain, I called the local plumber back knowing that he would be less expensive than the big guys, and had him fix it; and plan on calling him again when I have a job that I wouldn't feel comfortable tackling myself. Even if you don't get a particular job; if you make a connection during an estimate with a customer it may pay off in the end.

[DUNBAR]

Even if you don't get a particular job; if you make a connection during an estimate with a customer it may pay off in the end.


I don't find this to be true, whether over the phone or in person. I was one of those fellows that used to give free estimates in the beginning and cut out the shenanigans real quick when I realized the ratio that wasn't producing income.

When a customer finds someone cheaper than you (easy in my case) they'll know in the future not to call because you wasted their time. You cannot dispute that known fact.


There are people that will waste your time to shop opinions. I won't cater to this mindset and I am not liked by price shoppers. The best that they've obtained from me is time on the phone, that's it.


If I show up at your house with a plumbing supply house in the driveway, ready to work, I'm charging.

You as a customer isolate yourself from those who have a very good reputation, understand that properly operating that business doesn't involve giving the blueprint away so someone can do it cheaper.

That much I know and understand from all the people that have shopped my company and haven't called back for the obvious reasons.

It's good they are not wasting any more of my time. :angry:





cpw,


Does your boss ask you to drive all the way into work everyday and let you know if you're working or not?

[drtyhands]

Thank you for your opinion cpw.I appreciate it.Although,If I were to do service for a living I don't know if I would do free estimates,at least not in the sharkpool I live in.Not everyone is what they say are.So there are a lot of people deliberately just using the free estimate to gather info to either do it themselves or educating themselves so they can troubleshoot the $20.00 an hour handyboy with a couple of tools(low bid).It's not that dramatic but still I don't have any time to spare to find out.

[gear junkie]

Awsome thread, get early nomination for thread of the year. BTW I get a 40, 50 gas state select for 247

[cpw]

I don't find this to be true, whether over the phone or in person. I was one of those fellows that used to give free estimates in the beginning and cut out the shenanigans real quick when I realized the ratio that wasn't producing income.

When a customer finds someone cheaper than you (easy in my case) they'll know in the future not to call because you wasted their time. You cannot dispute that known fact.


There are people that will waste your time to shop opinions. I won't cater to this mindset and I am not liked by price shoppers. The best that they've obtained from me is time on the phone, that's it.


If I show up at your house with a plumbing supply house in the driveway, ready to work, I'm charging.

You as a customer isolate yourself from those who have a very good reputation, understand that properly operating that business doesn't involve giving the blueprint away so someone can do it cheaper.

That much I know and understand from all the people that have shopped my company and haven't called back for the obvious reasons.

It's good they are not wasting any more of my time. :angry:





cpw,


Does your boss ask you to drive all the way into work everyday and let you know if you're working or not?

Dunbar,

Obviously, for your business I'll defer to your judgement as to the best way to run it. I can certainly understand how driving around and not getting business is a waste of your time. I also wouldn't expect you to do it for a job that is under some threshold (say $500), but if I'm planning on spending a few thousand dollars; I want to know how many "a few" is before I pull the trigger. If you can do that over the phone, that is fine with me (saves me the hassle of being home twice). I understand you can't do that for some problems, because I'm not going to know what is wrong with it; that is what I'm going to pay you for; and as long as you tell me how much your minimum charge is up front I've got no problem with it.

Price isn't the only consideration but it is an important one. When I got painting estimates they ranged from $3500-7000. I ended up spending $4500 to go with the company that a friend used, because I was told the work was very good (also his estimate was much more professional [e.g., he actually measured the rooms] rather than guestimating). If I cared strictly about price, I would have had the house painted for $3500.

I'm obviously going to answer no to your question, but from the consumer point of view you could as easily ask if you go into the store, pick an item, swipe your credit card, and then ask how much it costs? Or alternatively, do you go into the store, pick an item, and then pay $10 to find out that it will cost you $100.

[DUNBAR]

I was referring to your comments about the small jobs, jobs under $500. It would be hard to decide over the phone multiple tasks involving numerous jobs.

That estimate that I charge for gives me comfort that my customer in front of me cares enough to understand that nothing I do in my career is free to myself.

I owe my profession the respect of charging for what knowledge I posess. It's accurate and precise to your situation whether you are 5 minutes or 500 miles away. Take a picture or moving video and I'll nail it down. Plumbing whether it's different from state to state, it basically all does the same thing.

If you type in northern kentucky plumbers in any search engine, you'll see why I don't bother to give away the knowledge in a first person basis. You come here for plumbing knowledge and I'll give it, just respect that I only appreciate those who take the time to do it right, not hack it in or find a cheap alternative to avoid financial hardship. We can't do that as good tradesmen.

I just wanted to state for the record that there are professionals in this trade that are experts, we are not in this business to help without reward. That is accomplished in other ways, by discretion of course.

[cpw]

Thank you for your opinion cpw.I appreciate it.Although,If I were to do service for a living I don't know if I would do free estimates,at least not in the sharkpool I live in.Not everyone is what they say are.So there are a lot of people deliberately just using the free estimate to gather info to either do it themselves or educating themselves so they can troubleshoot the $20.00 an hour handyboy with a couple of tools(low bid).It's not that dramatic but still I don't have any time to spare to find out.

I understand that too, and for stuff like trouble shooting I expect to pay something. When my air conditioner broke, I was glad to pay $80 to have the guy tell me what was wrong with it [the wire from the compressor to the attic air handler had a short]. When he told me $897 to fix it, I said no, went to the Home Depot got 50' of thermostat wire, and snaked it myself in about 45 minutes.

I can of course see why you would get pissed off about that, because you aren't going to really make much, but if he had told me something reasonable like another $200 to fix it, I would have paid him to do it. I probably even would have gone for $300, but after seeing it take him 30 minutes and a $15 part would have grumbled to my co-workers.

I guess my real point is that for jobs, which have a clearly defined scope of work; I expect you to be able to tell me how much it will cost beforehand.

[PLUMBER RICK]

So if you trust me to cut your grass, knowing me and all from the forum and seeing me in town, that when I tell you I'll send the bill with your head nodding,

It's okay for me to make-a-price because I'll spin it as it's ordinary in our capitalist society. You'll pay it, it's your bill because you was trusting your local tradesman, which was really stupid.

And you wander why people can't trust service providers. My shining example is why we get brow-beat on price, constantly because a few ****tards in the bunch showboats and produces victims, the rest of us work as hard honest plumbers making a living without causing undo harm to our customers because we have an moral judgement to adhere to.


It's in all the professions, they stay around for quite a while because the exposure can't reach the consumer fast enough to protect them. I'm on their side and I always will be. I'm one of them.

dunbar. i speak the same gospel as you do;)

because someone can take advantage of a person and get away with it, is the same thing that i've been fighting for years and years.

a contractor is suppose to be honest, just like your doctor.

out of curiosity what was the faucet that they installed?

now i could be wrong, but i doubt the faucet was $100.00 with flexes.

dunbar, you and i will protect joe public;)

rick

[PLUMBER RICK]

Service Guy,


Black and white, simple huh?


Would you happen to be the insurance guy who shows up after a tornado that blows a whole town to pieces, people lose everything of their most valued posessions

and hover over the damage with your clipboard and say

"Sorry, but you didn't buy enough coverage. I'm sorry but I wish I could do something for you."


There's a reality to my bringing this discussion to light. I see people pay triple to 5 times the market average in my area and I call it theft by deception, completely.

That's why there's KARMA, there's an implied thought process that when you prey on one's vulnerabilities, it will come back to you as payback. I truly believe this.


If you want to be a respectable plumber, don't drill into the community that you can't be trusted without the legal representation.


There are still some of us out there that can be trusted on a handshake or nod of the head without having to tell the world how we stole from them.


DB I had a customer squawk at me for wanting $115 for a Delta PB cartridge replacement on a tub/shower faucet this morning. There is a possible chance the wife was calling behind the husband's back because he couldn't fix it. A call to him or either my price probably got him either someone cheaper or the discipline to honor the wife's repeated asking. 20 minutes and that's dragging it, I always give them advice and answers to anything they want because they paid for the hour, not the task. I'll have them ask questions till they stop, ask me to leave.

Got a guy I have to call back that wants a price on a tankless install; damn near every one of them have not a clue what all is involved in doing the conversion on those from a tank. You want it?

I already know he's going to freak out with the price.....if it was new construction, a lot easier but conversions involve time and lots of it. They never believe me that I have to use specific flue piping for the application. They want to use the PVC (NOT) or into a chimney which isn't a option.

dunbar, are you sure you havn't been stalking me and reading all of my post?

i'm glad you too have the same ethics i have. this is the same debate that has some of us, upset at each other.
this is a prime example of what gets me going:slap:

rick.

[drtyhands]

I understand that too, and for stuff like trouble shooting I expect to pay something. When my air conditioner broke, I was glad to pay $80 to have the guy tell me what was wrong with it [the wire from the compressor to the attic air handler had a short]. When he told me $897 to fix it, I said no, went to the Home Depot got 50' of thermostat wire, and snaked it myself in about 45 minutes.

I can of course see why you would get pissed off about that, because you aren't going to really make much, but if he had told me something reasonable like another $200 to fix it, I would have paid him to do it. I probably even would have gone for $300, but after seeing it take him 30 minutes and a $15 part would have grumbled to my co-workers.

I guess my real point is that for jobs, which have a clearly defined scope of work; I expect you to be able to tell me how much it will cost beforehand.
cpw,
Great responses.It's good to see the level headed follow through from the other side.

Being in construction I do not get even close to every job I bid.My mentors tell me to keep raising my prices untill I lose about half the projects I bid on.Way over $500.00.........Way.

Adam:)

[DuckButter]

As a homeowner, I would tell you that depending on the kind of work I would expect a free estimate.You'll certainly get some companies with free estimates that make up for the "freeness" of the estimate by charging a lot and hoping someone bites, but I've found that if you get 3-4 estimates you can generally get someone who will be good [you can often get a feel for the quality of the work based on talking with the person] for a reasonable price.


Math,
I'm one of 3-4 other guys bidding each job.
The job takes 20 minutes each way, $10 in gas and maybe 20 minutes of you picking my brain about how I think it should be done.
Thats an hour each estimate, plus $10 in gas...for the opportunity to educate you on how I do the job and to afford you the opportunity to shop prices.
I don't travel for estimates on smaller projects like a water heater..if the customer insists, then I charge with an estimate or trip fee.
On remodels, most of them are for regular customers, no need to charge.
But expecting me to give you my time & gas without a fee is unrealistic.
It also has proven very helpful in weeding out bargain hunters who want things done on their terms, scarefully many folks have no realistic idea of whats involved when they price shop, then settle for the "preferred" price not realizing they may have cornered an inexperienced fella into taking compromising shortcuts on time or stock.
From your end, if you insist on excluding anyone that charges for their time, you weed out all but those who may be more desperate for work.

[Service Guy]

This thread is hugely informative to us service guys! Thanks for all the input. And cpw, your homeowner/customer input was very appreciated, thank you.:cool:

[Ace Sewer]

...If I were already established maybe, but I NEED new customers since I have only been at it less than a year.

Even my $20 'trip fee' idea will be enough to turn away the 'bottom-dwellers' who only want cheap handymen to do the work. ...

...Cheapy bargain hunters will refer you tons of business, to other cheapy bargain hunters.


A bit of advice. Never, Never try to compete with the hacks and the station wagon plumbers. Do uncompromizingly good work, be on time, be neat and be patient. If you build it, they will come

...I can do that because I'm running with a stellar reputation of being honest, not the cheapest, reliable without needing gauze and bandaids after you write the check.


Look at the above; you don't need or want those jobs. Those customers will only hurt you in the long run. Stay lean, you'll get by. It's slow at first, but you don't build a house on a crappy foundation

For me, phone calls are free. I'll sit and talk you through it happily. And more power to you for being willing to try. You make me rearrange my day and drive? It's $50 to show up.

[cpw]

Math,
I'm one of 3-4 other guys bidding each job.
The job takes 20 minutes each way, $10 in gas and maybe 20 minutes of you picking my brain about how I think it should be done.
Thats an hour each estimate, plus $10 in gas...for the opportunity to educate you on how I do the job and to afford you the opportunity to shop prices.
I don't travel for estimates on smaller projects like a water heater..if the customer insists, then I charge with an estimate or trip fee.
On remodels, most of them are for regular customers, no need to charge.
But expecting me to give you my time & gas without a fee is unrealistic.
It also has proven very helpful in weeding out bargain hunters who want things done on their terms, scarefully many folks have no realistic idea of whats involved when they price shop, then settle for the "preferred" price not realizing they may have cornered an inexperienced fella into taking compromising shortcuts on time or stock.
From your end, if you insist on excluding anyone that charges for their time, you weed out all but those who may be more desperate for work.
I think it also might depend on your area. It sounds like some of you guys are competing against a guy who buys a blow torch and calls himself a plumber. Here (in the NY metro area), you expect someone to show up in a Van with license numbers permanently painted or affixed; and if not you would tell him to show you his county issued photo ID (or go home).

Really, until you establish a relationship; the only kind of quality screening you have is a license and maybe word of mouth. Getting someone without a license seems pretty crazy, especially for something like a water heater; which if he screws up will end up blowing up your house (gas), burning it down (oil), or killing you while you sleep (either).

I think we may have different definitions of a small jobs regarding water heaters. I don't think that $1000+ is a small job. But like I said, a quote over the phone would be OK. There are a bunch of people who don't want to do that and would rather see where it will go (probably because they've gotten burned by some pertinent info that was left out on a previous phone estimate).

[Vinko]

I am with you 100% on this. I've been in business just over a year, and find the small amount of service plumbing that we do is full of price shoppers. After about 6 months we started charging a 50 dollar "dispatch" fee to new customers who were requesting estimates. We only charge this to customers we haven't worked for before, and most have become repeat customers since the first visit. We also waive the fee if we end up getting the job. i find it works pretty good to weed out the price shoppers

I know this will probably garner some criticism from the forum pundits, but as of 2008 we also started charging a 2 hour minimum to our commercial/Industrial clients.

I've got a shop that does light manufacturing (cutting and grinding metal), assembly, and import/export, wholesale distribution. I've been fairly lucky in dealing with most trades.

But I do review prices of services and product from time to time. I know a little about the basic of most of the things like plumb, electr., etc. But concerning the the OP's post: two thing here: 1) the guy's old (or seemed it), and old people aren't in touch with today's pricing, necessarily. 2) A lot of people who don't know much about how to fix things themselves are weary of being ripped off. Maybe because they've met with unscrupulous trades before. Like some auto mechanics.

I've been ripped off by mechanics, contractors, sub-contractors, etc. Guys who didn't do the job right or didn't know how to. Partly my fault for not doing due diligence, partly unavoidable.

When I hire a guy who I _know_ is good and does quality work, as long as the price is "reasonable" I _never_ nickle and dime. I hired a guy to re-cement a loading dock area where container trucks come in. He did our other bay 20 years ago and no one crack! I don't care how much this guy charges as long as it's not astronomical, because I know I'm getting quality work which is less expensive in the long run...

[Vinko]

Math,
I'm one of 3-4 other guys bidding each job.
The job takes 20 minutes each way, $10 in gas and maybe 20 minutes of you picking my brain about how I think it should be done.
Thats an hour each estimate, plus $10 in gas...for the opportunity to educate you on how I do the job and to afford you the opportunity to shop prices.
I don't travel for estimates on smaller projects like a water heater..if the customer insists, then I charge with an estimate or trip fee.
On remodels, most of them are for regular customers, no need to charge.
But expecting me to give you my time & gas without a fee is unrealistic.
It also has proven very helpful in weeding out bargain hunters who want things done on their terms, scarefully many folks have no realistic idea of whats involved when they price shop, then settle for the "preferred" price not realizing they may have cornered an inexperienced fella into taking compromising shortcuts on time or stock.
From your end, if you insist on excluding anyone that charges for their time, you weed out all but those who may be more desperate for work.


If I've got a job I know will cost me a few thousand at least, and I call on 2 or 3 guys in the general area, and I've never met a guy who wanted to charge for an estimate, but I guess it could happen. I wouldn't be inclined to go with him, but that's just me. I see it as the cost of doing business, and I put in my time "all the time" to put a bid in for work.

One thing I do use as a "barometer" for whether I'll use a guy is whether he calls me back reasonably soon, whether he's on time for an appt., etc.

I figure if a guy can't call me back or show up when we've agreed to meet, I wonder how screwed up the rest of his operation is. Just another thought to add to the mix.

[mrs. westcoast]

If I've got a job I know will cost me a few thousand at least, and I call on 2 or 3 guys in the general area, and I've never met a guy who wanted to charge for an estimate, but I guess it could happen. I wouldn't be inclined to go with him, but that's just me. I see it as the cost of doing business, and I put in my time "all the time" to put a bid in for work.

One thing I do use as a "barometer" for whether I'll use a guy is whether he calls me back reasonably soon, whether he's on time for an appt., etc.

I figure if a guy can't call me back or show up when we've agreed to meet, I wonder how screwed up the rest of his operation is. Just another thought to add to the mix.


Vinko you have a croatian name..where are you from?

[DuckButter]

If I've got a job I know will cost me a few thousand at least, and I call on 2 or 3 guys in the general area, and I've never met a guy who wanted to charge for an estimate, but I guess it could happen. I wouldn't be inclined to go with him, but that's just me. I see it as the cost of doing business, and I put in my time "all the time" to put a bid in for work.

One thing I do use as a "barometer" for whether I'll use a guy is whether he calls me back reasonably soon, whether he's on time for an appt., etc.

I figure if a guy can't call me back or show up when we've agreed to meet, I wonder how screwed up the rest of his operation is. Just another thought to add to the mix.

You work from a fixed location.
I am constantly on the road for my job.
Gas is $4 a gallon now and climbing.
You'd have to be in our shoes to understand the sheer volume of price shoppers we get, it gets overwhelming very often.
If telling someone you charge a fee to go in person will deter them from having you stop by, there is a STRONG likelyhood they will also be deterred by all but the lowest bidder.
I WILL say this though, very seldom do my estimates need to be done in person.
I use flat rates on the smaller jobs, and most of my work is small jobs.
You need to understand, a builder will go out on 10 jobs to get one.
The one job will be usually in excess of $3k.
Plumbers jobs are generally smaller ticket than builders, remodellers or, in your reference, a concrete specialist.
I'd lose my shirt in no time flat if I spent $15 in gas for ten trips to win a $500 average job.

[Service Guy]

Lately, its $50 minimum for my service. Meaning, that gets my mobile tool/parts warehouse (work van) in your driveway and me in your house and professionally assessing the job. Most people have no problem with it at all. If they don't like the idea, they probably can't afford me, so I am happy to let them go.
Previous clients, I don't even have to mention it, but any new customers get told that a service call is $50 to start and any additional costs will be quoted before the work is done. Its working out great for everyone that way so far. I am happy, my clients are happy.:ok:

[DUNBAR]

Here's what I said last week on a job I did, and the customer was hustling me,


"Do I look like Bob Barker?"

"This isn't a game show, please, I cannot lower a price once I tell you how much it is going to cost."

[ridgidpipe]

we use very little electrics here.

out of curiosity, what does a 40 or 50 gas run you guys.

with our new lo nox scaqmd (southern calif. air quality management dist.) requirement, they are costing us $430- 460 plus tax. in fact most 30's are more expensive than a 40.

rick.

5 years ago i was paying $110-150.
A bradford standard 40 gas is costing me 270 right now but Bradford just had another 12 % increase so my price will be about 300 shortly

[Service Guy]

PCPlumber, What would you say to close the sale with this kind of cheapo customer, who thinks haggling is the best way to get a deal?

My closing rate is around 90-95% (which is pretty high in my opinion), I know how to sell. I just give up on that 5-10% that want to haggle about price all day. I know I could probably close more sales and close even higher dollar sales if I worked on it. What do you recommend?

[DuckButter]

OK Carl...I'm listening.:rolleyes:


Great points Jack, I quote rates over the phone, Carl has another approach...all food for thought.
You have some VERY valid points there.

[Service Guy]

Interesting viewpoint, PCplumber. I am learning what works and what doesn't work in closing sales daily. Its a good reminder to keep making progress though. I believe we never stand still, either we are progressing or regressing. I definitely am open to trying different things if it improves my bottom line. I'm in business for the money, not just to play in sewers for fun.

[Service Guy]

Thanks, you have a good point. I tend to be cynical and avoid certain customers, instead of trying to get a positive spin on the situation and turn it into something with potential. I'll take your advice into consideration.