Need Education?

[JCsPlumbing]

I need some education from you guys. And I'm serious.

What is the benefit/advantage/disadvantage of the elaborate mechaninical systems in some homes? Let me explain.

I stopped by a house under construction today and looked over a mechanical room in a roughly 3000 sq. ft. house. House is in Central N.C. There were 4-100 gal. storage tanks, Munchkin boiler, gas hot water heater, circulating pumps, thermostatic valve, electronic controls and pipe everywhere. And in my opinion, it looked good and was done right. Kind of like some of the work I've seen done by HVAC Hawk on here. But I'm ignorant to this and would like to know if this is the best way to be doing things.

One reservation I have about it is I wonder if things can be done to a point of redundant engineering. I assume (right or wrong) that there is better efficiency and control. But the owner now has 50 or more items to replace and/or maintain. Not to mention the installation investment.

I once spoke to an engineer that had installed a $30,000+ solar system and he had all the numbers crunched over a 30 year period showing how much he saved doing it this way. Then I pointed out how much his initial investment was and that how much he could have earned had he invested conservatively over the same amount of time. Dollar wise he lost. Dramatically.

So, I'm trying to learn. Honestly. I know that there isn't a universal application for all situations. But when I looked at this today I thought to myself is there really a return on investment? Is this the best way to do things? I haven't done installs to this degree and and need to educate myself to do them.

Any opinions are appreciated.

J.C.

[NHMaster3015]

You have a couple things going on here. Quite a lot of people just plain love all the latest, greatest, bell and whistles and naturally the guy selling it is a happy camper too. Realistically though there is a point at which the technology ceases to pay for itself. In the Northeast, solar is a prime example. Unless you can get a government grant the cost \ payback period ratio does'nt work out. You have to factor comfort into the equasion also. For example do you really need radiant floor heat.? Will it pay for itself.? The answer is probably not but quite a few people are willing to pay a premium for comfort and not having baseboard strung out all over the house. Twenty five years ago hardly no one was installing central air in the north east for residential service. Now I believe the number is 1 in 5. Again folks are willing to pay for comfort.

[HVAC HAWK]

thanks for the complement on my work

for houses there are some things you can do to save $ on fuel ,a lot of work i do is on big buildings .
for a house get a high efficient units and a good programmable thermostat you can save a good amount .

on large systems we need to put in energy recovery systems that takes the heat from the exhaust air to heat the makeup air coming back in .
a large church i'm doing the pumps need to be on a frequency drive to slow down if there are only a couple of units running .
another school i will be doing is going with geothermal and this is happening more and more .you can do this in a house to .the cost is a little more but it pays off in the long run [ not like solar did ].one of my coworkers put it in his house .
so i hope i can help a little but there are others that do houses that can help you to

[JCsPlumbing]

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to find out more about this particular house. I was told that it would be energy star rated. I don't know the criteria for to achieve this rating. There were no openings/vents in the crawlspace and was told the crawlspace would always be +-3 degrees.

It was overwhelming for me to see in that I've seen and done houses in this area and they never have mechanics like this. And I need to learn about them if they are going to be more prevalent.

I haven't been in all of them, but I'd have to say I've been alot of the houses in this area and have seen maybe 3 boilers.:o

Thanks again. Still learning.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to find out more about this particular house. I was told that it would be energy star rated. I don't know the criteria for to achieve this rating. There were no openings/vents in the crawlspace and was told the crawlspace would always be +-3 degrees.

It was overwhelming for me to see in that I've seen and done houses in this area and they never have mechanics like this. And I need to learn about them if they are going to be more prevalent.

I haven't been in all of them, but I'd have to say I've been alot of the houses in this area and have seen maybe 3 boilers.:o

Thanks again. Still learning.

J.C.

Sorry. Told the crawlspace would always be +-3 degrees of the internal house temperature.

[gear junkie]

I installed a geothermal heat pump in a 4500 sq ft home around 2 years ago. The customers previous utility bills were close to 350 a month. After the new system was installed, the bill dropped to around 120.

Decide where you want to pay; old technology cost less upfront but you pay more per month and vice versa for more efficent technology.

[JCsPlumbing]

Gear. What was the estimated cost difference between the GeoThermal system vs. the traditional. Thanks.

[gear junkie]

If I remember correctly about 15k. He had a split AC with oil heat and we also redid his ductwork.

[SlimTim]

JC, help my ignorance here. First, is a Munchkin boiler a disparaging discription of the boiler or the actual brand name?
Does the boiler heat the water for the storage tanks or is for house heat?. If the former, why do they even have a gas water heater? And judging from the way they did everything else, that sucker must be huge!

[JCsPlumbing]

Hey Slim. Munchkin is the brand name. As far as the configuration, you would be better served to ask HVAC Hawk, NHMaster, Gear Junkie etc.

I myself am trying to learn if this is something that I should be giving more consideration when giving recommendations to customers.

I'm going to take some pictures of the setup and TRY to post them for all to learn/teach from.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

ROTFLMAO! Slim! Just read your tagline at the bottom. Whether that quiz blew or not I don't know. Looking back, I say it didn't because I learned something and will never forget it.:)

[DuckButter]

Coincidentally it looks like I'll be installing a Munchkin next week.
Slim, it's ok...I still have no clue what a river birch is...guess we're even.

[SlimTim]

Hey Duck, where is NON UPC?

[JCsPlumbing]

Non United Plumbing Code?

[SlimTim]

Ok, I just googled Duckbutter and I'm lol.

[DuckButter]

MA...we don't subscribe to UPC or IPC, not alotta fun sometimes trying to relate to other states.
When I first got here it seemed like everyone was UPC, so I put that there to differentiate.

[DuckButter]

Ok, I just googled Duckbutter and I'm lol.

You don't know what Duckbutter is?
"Mothers cream", another term.
The reason I picked the name was it's something you wouldn't recognize if you weren't a plumber...rut roh...

[SlimTim]

That's exactly the reason I picked river birch! (Also known as baby's milk)

[SlimTim]

JC, Did that house have a fancy toilet like this one?

[JCsPlumbing]

:eek: NO!:lmao:

[SlimTim]

It might be worth finding out who the plumber or gc is on that job and sit down and ask a few questions.

[Hondahead]

I need some education from you guys. And I'm serious.

What is the benefit/advantage/disadvantage of the elaborate mechaninical systems in some homes? Let me explain.

I stopped by a house under construction today and looked over a mechanical room in a roughly 3000 sq. ft. house. House is in Central N.C. There were 4-100 gal. storage tanks, Munchkin boiler, gas hot water heater, circulating pumps, thermostatic valve, electronic controls and pipe everywhere. And in my opinion, it looked good and was done right. Kind of like some of the work I've seen done by HVAC Hawk on here. But I'm ignorant to this and would like to know if this is the best way to be doing things.


What you are describing (except 400gal of domestic hot water for a 3000sq ft house? That's a little excessive) is very common up here and most plumbers are skilled in the installation and maintenance of such systems. Obviously the climate in cental Alberta is much different than the climate in central North Carolina. A radaint system has a much bigger payoff up here. Comfort is the main factor, forced air blows, infloor radiant rules! Status is always a motivating factor for some, keeping up with the Jones' I do mostly high end homes so I see alot of "status spending" I am working on one now, 5 1/2 bath, 4400sq ft, lake front (Client is a single female, twenty something swimsuit model/clothing designer:D) where the master bath cost 40K! 10K just for the tub! http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?from=thumb&frm=&module=Flagship&item=10448702&prod_num=1166-C1&section=2&category=9

[mtnman1100]

That system sounds like a heat exchanger with lots of storage to circulate through radiant heat and service the hot water demand for the house. Radiant heat is king compared to forced or central heat. Radiant heat expands while hot or heated air rises.

HVAC Hawk, I'm taking HVAC classes right now and I just learned about frequency drives - awesome stuff. You guys think plumbing is complicated, stick you head in to a HVAC catalog sometime, HVAC is 10 times more complicated. Well at least 8.5 times.