Water heater pics

[gear junkie]

This is for a 35 gal electric w/h. The 2 fpt stubouts are for thermometer but waiting on the thermometer wells. I do know the soldering sucks and I'll leave it at that. Tell me what you think, be honest.

[Aaron91]

Is the valve going to the expansion tank the style with the built in relief valve? It does not appear to be.

If not, that valve is just a waste of money.

Is that a mixing valve it looks like?! Can you explain why thats there? Sorta confused by that.

[westcoastplumber]

It looks good ben, I like the idea of the ball valve installed just for the expansion tank, this also helps for isolation purposes.

I have a silly question, is this residential?

why the mixing valve, the thermometers?? how hot do you expect a 30 gallon electric to get???

[aero1]

gear not bad, curious though wouldnt you need some check valves to eliminate any potential for crossover?

[Service Guy]

gear not bad, curious though wouldnt you need some check valves to eliminate any potential for crossover?
Mixing valves don't need checkvalves...I think?

[JCsPlumbing]

Is a shutoff legal for TXT?

[Aaron91]

Wait a minute, I follow the National Standard Plumbing Code and it's ill-legal to have a valve in between the water heater and the expansion tank. Due to the fact that someone could just shut off the valve, making the expansion tank pointless/useless.

[JCsPlumbing]

Wait a minute, I follow the National Standard Plumbing Code and it's ill-legal to have a valve in between the water heater and the expansion tank. Due to the fact that someone could just shut off the valve, making the expansion tank pointless/useless.

Didn't think so.:D But I've learned much from GJ so I thought I'd give benefit of the doubt.

J.C.

[Service Guy]

Wait a minute, I follow the National Standard Plumbing Code and it's ill-legal to have a valve in between the water heater and the expansion tank. Due to the fact that someone could just shut off the valve, making the expansion tank pointless/useless.

You are RIGHT! Wow, this young apprentice is smart. I bet You'll have you license at a very young age!

[FINER9998]

and for the uninitiated amateur in the room, what is the purpose of the apparent connection of hot to cold behind the expansion tank.

[Aaron91]

You are RIGHT! Wow, this young apprentice is smart. I bet You'll have you license at a very young age!

Thanks boss.

JC, I gotcha back dawg. ;)

Ben, didn't I tell you to write that down at the gathering? :p

[HVAC HAWK]

Is the valve going to the expansion tank the style with the built in relief valve? It does not appear to be.

If not, that valve is just a waste of money.

Is that a mixing valve it looks like?! Can you explain why thats there? Sorta confused by that.

valves are never a waste of money ,it will make changing the tank a lot easier if it is bad .and you have a relief on the heater

Is a shutoff legal for TXT?

if it is i take the handle off and the inspector will pass it

ben good job but your stubs for the thermometer's look a little far from the flow of water to get a good temp reading

[Aaron91]

Charlie, I agree and dis agree with your statement. In this instance, the valve is ill-legal.

[haycad]

dont you need unions on your heaters?

[westcoastplumber]

and for the uninitiated amateur in the room, what is the purpose of the apparent connection of hot to cold behind the expansion tank.


thats a thermostatic control valve, or a mixer, it maintains a certain water temp, making sure the water doles not get to hot

my question is, why all the temp control on an electric water heater?? a 30 gallon, what appears to be a residential:confused:

boilers or commercial water heaters, yes....

help me on this one.....

[westcoastplumber]

dont you need unions on your heaters?


UPC you do;)

[Service Guy]

thats a thermostatic control valve, or a mixer, it maintains a certain water temp, making sure the water doles not get to hot

my question is, why all the temp control on an electric water heater?? a 30 gallon, what appears to be a residential:confused:

boilers or commercial water heaters, yes....

help me on this one.....

Same here. I don't recall ever installing a mixing valve on a small residential electric heater.

Anyway, its a nice-looking installation overall gearjunkie.

And the ball-valve on the expansion tank is a cool idea. The only reason I know its illegal is because I did it once too and bragged about it being superior to my boss, he of course corrected me....oops. Still a cool idea though to make changing it easier.

[NHMaster3015]

Forget what you've been told. Forget what you think you know. Storage tanks can and do harbor and breed legionella bacteria.

70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F) - Disinfection range
At 66 °C (151 °F) - Legionellae die within 2 minutes
At 60 °C (140 °F) - Legionellae die within 32 minutes
At 55 °C (131 °F) - Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
50 to 55 °C (122 to 131 °F) - They can survive but do not multiply
20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F)- Legionellae growth range
35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F) - Ideal growth range
Below 20 °C (68 °F) - Legionellae can survive but are dormant
Water heaters should be set at 140 degrees to kill the bacteria within the tank. Clorinated water has little if any effect on legionella except when used in very high (and dangerous) concentrations.
The correct thing to do is set the heater at 140 and install a tempering valve at the outlet to bring the water temperature down to 110 degrees. If hot water pipes exceed 100' the tempering valves should be installed at the fixtures because legionella can survive in the piping.
Take a look at Watts's web site. they have some very good information there, including a video called Danger, scalding lurks.

[gear junkie]

ben good job but your stubs for the thermometer's look a little far from the flow of water to get a good temp readingHow close do you think it should be? The wells are 4" long. Do the wells need to be brass or can they be S/S?


my question is, why all the temp control on an electric water heater?? a 30 gallon, what appears to be a residential:confused: . Built according to prints. I get an isometric and decide where to place the valves


dont you need unions on your heaters? Not on the prints and I see no reason to as it's one more connection that can fail. W/H last 6-12 years so adding 4 extra joints and 10 mins. extra time to replace it seems worth it to eliminate a fitting that can possibly fail. And yes, this is from the guy who says sharkbites aren't the worst thing in the world.

A little background on the place. This is the same project with the flushometer cpvc stubouts. Let me know if you want to see pics on how that came out(I didn't do the work and still refuse that to this). The navy and virginia go by ICC (IPC). Every navy job I've every seen uses tempering valves. Not sure if it matters but start to finish was 2 hours.

[gear junkie]

Wanted to double check the code for the valve on the expansion tank. In the 2006 IPC section 607 is hot water supply system and I couldn't find anything about prohibited valve locations.

Couldn't find anything about requiring unions on a w/h(chapter 5).If anyone comes up with anything different on either one, let me know.

[JCsPlumbing]

Gotta agree with you on the unions. Not worth a d@#!

J.C.

[ToUtahNow]

Wanted to double check the code for the valve on the expansion tank. In the 2006 IPC section 607 is hot water supply system and I couldn't find anything about prohibited valve locations.

Couldn't find anything about requiring unions on a w/h(chapter 5).If anyone comes up with anything different on either one, let me know.

Check UPC 609.5

Mark

Sorry Ben I missed the IPC part.

[gear junkie]

Check UPC 609.5

MarkWe go by IPC. That's all I'm familar with. Navy doesn't even go by ADA code. They use the ICC/ANSI instead. Don't ask me, I didn't make the rules up, I just bend them to suit my needs.

[DUNBAR]

Wait a minute, I follow the National Standard Plumbing Code and it's ill-legal to have a valve in between the water heater and the expansion tank. Due to the fact that someone could just shut off the valve, making the expansion tank pointless/useless.



Correcta-mundo; KY follows NPC as well. I switched one out today, just shut the main off and opened laundry tub....did it on the fly.



Looks great Ben; might be more work to do it in copper but in the long run it holds a greater value.

[SlimTim]

[quote=gear junkie;134774] I do know the soldering sucks and I'll leave it at that. quote]

I would say your solder joints are beautiful and a 2 hour install time for everything pictured is impressive.

What about the brass nips at the tank? Did you remove the heat traps?

[PLUMBER RICK]

i believe that tempering valves are now required as of 2007. i was at the supply house the other day and they had it posted on the wall.

not sure if it only was for commercial, multi unit installations or included residential too?

mark, do you know?

and yes we do require unions on the heater. i also provide one at the pressure relief valve too.

rick.

[SlimTim]

Maybe on the side of the expansion tank you should put the web address of DUNBAR'S video of expansion tank failure---and a date that this one should be changed with your phone # at the bottom.

Is that an rp or a double check and what does it serve?

[drtyhands]

105 degrees for washing hands,higher for sanitation temperatures(dishwashers etc).

[gear junkie]

[quote=gear junkie;134774] I do know the soldering sucks and I'll leave it at that. quote]

I would say your solder joints are beautiful and a 2 hour install time for everything pictured is impressive.

What about the brass nips at the tank? Did you remove the heat traps?
I was training someone and let him do half the joints. He made some gorilla joints(ugly as Xuck but strong as hell) but he was learning. I was training him and am responsible for his work so I can't cop out and blame any bad workmanship on him. Use a wire brush in your drill, cut copper with a sawzall, norton pads to clean the pipe and a uni bit to ream the pipe and 2 hours was easy time. I did have my helper use a tubing cutter(lenox of course) cause he butchered too many joints with a sawzall.

That tank doesn't come with heat traps and I don't care for them as they can freeze up and cause future problems, particularly the ball style. The brass nipples are screwed directly into the tank.

[Masterplumb]

What is the reason that a valve before the txt is illegal? It is legal here. What is the worst that could happen? Doesnt make sense. We use them here all the time here, especially on boilers.

[PLUMBER RICK]

What is the reason that a valve before the txt is illegal? It is legal here. What is the worst that could happen? Doesnt make sense. We use them here all the time here, especially on boilers.

same reason why we can't install a shut off before a trap primer.

to easy to shut it off and never fix the leaking tank or trap primer.

rick.

[Masterplumb]

same reason why we can't install a shut off before a trap primer.

to easy to shut it off and never fix the leaking tank or trap primer.

rick.

I guess its a local thing, here a txt on domestic is not required unless the system becomes closed (p.r.v. or double check on the main)

[PLUMBER RICK]

I guess its a local thing, here a txt on domestic is not required unless the system becomes closed (p.r.v. or double check on the main)

pretty much the same here too. in fact, even the trap primers are no longer adjustable out here.

a check valve is typically found with recirc. systems.

almost all pressure regulators have a thermal expansion bypass. as long as the city pressure is well below 150#, the bypass will allow the pressure back into the main. we don't have meter backflow protection for the most part. although santa monica is starting to ask for it on commercial applications.

rick.

[Birddoggiest]

I have failed an inspection where the fire mashal made us take out the valves to the ex. tank. said if it is closed in a fire it is a bomb.

[NHMaster3015]

I have failed an inspection where the fire mashal made us take out the valves to the ex. tank. said if it is closed in a fire it is a bomb.

Very true.

[gear junkie]

Why not put a lock out on the valve inline with the expansion tank to avoid anyone closing the valve.

[gear junkie]

Wait a minute, I follow the National Standard Plumbing Code and it's ill-legal to have a valve in between the water heater and the expansion tank.
Where is this at?

[Masterplumb]

Very true.

I guess it's me! What makes it more dangerous if its valved off then if its open?

[UA22PLumberdude]

I don't wanna sound negative here,but I think swing joints look terrible...and definatly would have avoided them in this install.

Our inspectors require us to pipe in these silly "heat traps" on both sides of the tank,kinda looks like s-traps made from 90s.Anyone else run into this?

[plumberscrack]

This is for a 35 gal electric w/h. The 2 fpt stubouts are for thermometer but waiting on the thermometer wells. I do know the soldering sucks and I'll leave it at that. Tell me what you think, be honest.

I won't you hurt you too bad :p

just a couple of things.....

5 ball valves for a water heater install is excessive

1 too many gauges (unless the schematics call for these)

The wells won't read the water temp accurately at their current location

Top of the heater outlet where the 90 is should have been a tee with temp well on top

I prefer a round temp. gauges with a soldered well way less money than a verticle glass style

Relief valve is on the side of heater or in the middle between the hot & cold?

Could have put the well there :confused:

Can't read the dial on the mixing valve without standing on your head

Where's your vacuum relief?

[Aaron91]

I was going to let this blow over, but here goes nothing.

I do not know, nor have I talked to ThisOldPlumber before, and this is the message I received in my PM inbox a few minutes ago. I have already sent a PM to Josh.

Get a life buddy. Are you just scared a 17 year knows codes and is able to do the same work as you? I also have my GED, so more than likely, you and I have the same level of education. I'd hope you and I would get along, since we both are plumbers after all. :rolleyes:


Hey Arran you seem life a real douche. Go back to school you *****. I looked at that pic of you by that water heater you installed and you look like a total hick *** dropout. You *****, what was school to hard for the little plumber? Its dipshits like you that ruin the trade. You seem to think you know it all in your responses but you really suck at you job and probally learned all your info from home depots "Plumbing for *******s". Go finish your education you hick *** prick.

[gear junkie]

I don't wanna sound negative here,but I think swing joints look terrible...and definatly would have avoided them in this install.

Our inspectors require us to pipe in these silly "heat traps" on both sides of the tank,kinda looks like s-traps made from 90s.Anyone else run into this? Could you take a pic of those heat traps you talk about?

I won't you hurt you too bad :p

just a couple of things.....

5 ball valves for a water heater install is excessive prints called for it

1 too many gauges (unless the schematics call for these) see above, where would the best location be for 1 thermometer? On the tempered side?

The wells won't read the water temp accurately at their current location What would have been a better way to run the lines or is the below comment the only suggestion?

Top of the heater outlet where the 90 is should have been a tee with temp well on top point well taken, definently do it your way next time.

I prefer a round temp. gauges with a soldered well way less money than a verticle glass style engineer tells us what to put in

Relief valve is on the side of heater or in the middle between the hot & cold?
On the side, just a typical PRV with a piece of 3/4" copper running straight down
Could have put the well there :confused:say again?

Can't read the dial on the mixing valve without standing on your head You can't see it in the pics but the tempering valve has a number indicator on the front

Where's your vacuum relief? You got me on this, what do you mean?

Thanks Bill for the critism and I really mean that. I didn't post these pics to stroke my ego. I never worked with other civilian plumbers before. I did plumbing for the navy or by myself as a sub, so no one ever challenged me to do better as a plumber. Guys, even if you think your comment is nitpicky, tell me. I need this type of critique to make myself a better plumber.

[gear junkie]

Aaron, this is my take on Thisold$hithead. He's a loser with nothing better to do. Ignore him and let Josh take care of him.

Why you'd have to pick my thread to sidetrack? You've had 2 or 3 w/h threads, let me have one.:D

[tinmack]

Originally Posted by ThisOldPlumber
Hey Arran you seem life a real douche. Go back to school you *****. I looked at that pic of you by that water heater you installed and you look like a total hick *** dropout. You *****, what was school to hard for the little plumber? Its dipshits like you that ruin the trade. You seem to think you know it all in your responses but you really suck at you job and probally learned all your info from home depots "Plumbing for *******s". Go finish your education you hick *** prick.


Anybody who would send a message like that to Aaron should be immediately banned. The guy seems more than a little "off"......I only say this after reading this thread and looking at his previous posts on other threads......

His comments thud like cement hitting the ground........and have less validity/interest.

[Aaron91]

Sorry Ben, let's get back to plumbing.

How come you didn't teach your apprentice your 'soldering trick'?

I love that trick now that you've told me about it.

[gear junkie]

I told you not to talk about that. G14 classified.

[plumberscrack]

Thanks Bill for the critism and I really mean that. I didn't post these pics to stroke my ego. I never worked with other civilian plumbers before. I did plumbing for the navy or by myself as a sub, so no one ever challenged me to do better as a plumber. Guys, even if you think your comment is nitpicky, tell me. I need this type of critique to make myself a better plumber.

The valve on the exp tank is excessive IMO. May not be allowed by IPC. Still not clear on that yet.

Gauge on tempered water

Figures....engineers specing $75 gauges on a 40 gallon heater

The outlet in the middle is a 3/4" plug. Take that out with a 1/2" drive and put a temp well there

It's not required but I got into the habit of putting vacuum reliefs on all electric heaters whether they are in attic or not. Watts 36A?

Negative pressure will syphon the water out of the heater and burn the elements. It's cheaper than a new element. Surprised engineers didn't spec that as well

[Aaron91]

:rotflmao1:

I guess the G in G14 stands for Gear Junkie?! Haha.

I purposely didn't say too much, didn't wanna steal your thunder. :D

[gear junkie]

The valve on the exp tank is excessive IMO. May not be allowed by IPC. Still not clear on that yet. Couldn't find it in ipc.

Gauge on tempered water

Figures....engineers specing $75 gauges on a 40 gallon heater That's nothing, they called for ss thermometer wells which by themself cost 115 for 2 of them. Brass-$19.

The outlet in the middle is a 3/4" plug. Take that out with a 1/2" drive and put a temp well there Isn't that the anode rod?

It's not required but I got into the habit of putting vacuum reliefs on all electric heaters whether they are in attic or not. Watts 36A? Never heard of this. Thanks, learned something new

Negative pressure will syphon the water out of the heater and burn the elements. It's cheaper than a new element. Surprised engineers didn't spec that as well shouldn't a backflow preventer solve this? Where would the negative pressure come from.

Thanks again

[Aaron91]

Thanks for making this thread, I learned several things from it.

[plumberscrack]

The anode should be off center. Middle should be a plug with 1/2" drive socket.

With a heater in the attic, main water was shut off and faucet open, syphoning occurs.

The hole in the dip tube doesn't provide enough protection for me on the syphoning

Couldn't find the 36A on the Watts site :confused:

I'm sure the number is right :mad:

[Aaron91]

Bill, you were close it's an N36.

http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=331&pid=815&ref=2

[HVAC HAWK]

ben the thermometer wells should be right at the flow of water
if they are not then it will give a wrong temp because of the dead water in the pipe

[gear junkie]

ben the thermometer wells should be right at the flow of water
if they are not then it will give a wrong temp because of the dead water in the pipe
Could you post a pic of one done the right way because I think I'm getting confused. It's that thinking thing.

[Aaron91]

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9649/bengb7.png

This is what they're referring too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[HVAC HAWK]

Could you post a pic of one done the right way because I think I'm getting confused. It's that thinking thing.

here is one
http://images33.fotki.com/v1138/photos/1/1072837/6017769/diffrent019-vi.jpg

[JERRYMAC]

GOOD JOB BEN !!
ARRON 91 WHOEVER THAT PLUMBER IS SHOWS HOW STUPID HE IS,. !!! :soapbox:
ok guys let me give a primer on gov. plumbing 101, this is a gov job it is engneered with the BEST materials your TAX dollars, :sad: can pay for so the job. will last 50 yrs. even if the water heater go'es bad in just 6 yrs. :sad:

[tinmack]

GOOD JOB BEN !!
ARRON 91 WHOEVER THAT PLUMBER IS SHOWS HOW STUPID HE IS,. !!! :soapbox:
:sad:

I assume you're talking about ThisOldPlumber?? He was banned....

[gear junkie]

Charlie, I love pics of your work, always learn alot from them. Won't the well placed in the flow of water obstruct the flow? Wouldn't this go against 605.5 (book is in truck so I'm going off memory) in ipc about fitting obstructing flow? Your pipe looked to be 3" so I doubt it would obstruct the flow that much. I know there's a happy median here and am just trying to find it. Would a well placed in a bypass work better?

[HVAC HAWK]

Charlie, I love pics of your work, always learn alot from them. Won't the well placed in the flow of water obstruct the flow? Wouldn't this go against 605.5 (book is in truck so I'm going off memory) in ipc about fitting obstructing flow? Your pipe looked to be 3" so I doubt it would obstruct the flow that much. I know there's a happy median here and am just trying to find it. Would a well placed in a bypass work better?

ben when i put a thermometer in i take the well and hold it up to the pipe it is going in to see what type of adapter i need so the bottom of the well is just in the water flow 1/16 " . some times i need a small piece of pipe and a fip adapter and a lot of times i use a fitting x fip adapter .
i will take a picture of one tomorrow and post it

[gear junkie]

ben when i put a thermometer in i take the well and hold it up to the pipe it is going in to see what type of adapter i need so the bottom of the well is just in the water flow 1/16 " . some times i need a small piece of pipe and a fip adapter and a lot of times i use a fitting x fip adapter .
i will take a picture of one tomorrow and post it
got it, thanks.