Dry Out Already????

[westcoastplumber]

One of my calls today:

Moisture problems, 2 story house, 1/2 bath downstairs, 2 up stairs over the "Office", 2 wall c/o's, 3" picking up both baths, drain runs parallel to the wall, front to back of the house, 1/2 bath ties in in the garage.

Slab floor, on the office wall, exterior, spots of bubbling paint, signs of moisture, office carpet damp, ont he other side of the wall, family room, back of house and same side of wall as the office, spots of bubbling.

No potable leaks, all copper was removed 5 years ago because of a slab leak.

the only thing in the concrete, the drain, runs right down the middle of the "Office"

Ran a camera, all ABS drain line, no breaks, seperations, visable cracks, flushed downstairs toilet, upstairs toilet, water runs away fine and drains.

Concrete drive way on "Office" wall, and 10" concrete apron around back of house bfore going to grass.

All concrete slopped away from house and property.

Ant's crawling up through cracks, owner say's they have always been there, for many years, have not gotten and worse or any better.

peeled carpet back 1 week ago, no standing water, just signs of moisture from her insurance company, insurance guy came out with a meter, signs of moisture in concrete under carpet, and wall running lenghtwise of driveway, parallel with drain line.

Now, on to the slab leak, customer had 6 of them, the last one was the worse on, sounded like a faucet was on. the plumber at the time broke open the "Office" floor, and located the leak, so her a complete re-route.

Looked at the meter, no "Ticks"

Question: Could the massive slab leak of 5 years ago, all the moisture just now be showing itself?? The last massive break is in the same room, and about 2' from the wall showing the moisture problems.

Suggestions? I am thinking about breaking the concrete out where the other plumber broke it out and replaced it. Curious if the water will puddle up? or the dirt will just be moist. I am also curious if the irrigation (sprinklers) have anything to do with the situation....the customer does not over do watering, and the property is slopped away, but I figure this is just something to cross off the list.

Anything I am missing?

Possible moisture from the last slab leak??

[ToUtahNow]

Robert,

Without knowing anything about the area it is a tough one. If you have a problem in the area with ground water it is possible the plumber 5-years ago tore out the plastic membrane to fix the leak and never patched it in. It is also possible the old copper was abandoned in the slab and is being fed some how. If it were a leak in the ABS it seems the water would have to stand in the drain to cause a problem above the slab.

Mark

[SlimTim]

If the irrigation is being used now (it's still too cold here) there could be a break in one of the lateral lines that will leak underground but only when the system is running AND depending on what is broken it could be massive.
Last year I had one that was dumping about 7 gpm into a french drain and exiting in a culvert about 100' away

Do they have any flower beds against the house? Or even on the opposite side of the drive? You know what crazy paths water can take.

If you want to eliminate this as the problem you can calculate how many gpms the sprinlkers are using on a single zone and then time the meter for a minute or two and see if it adds up.

[westcoastplumber]

Robert,

Without knowing anything about the area it is a tough one. If you have a problem in the area with ground water it is possible the plumber 5-years ago tore out the plastic membrane to fix the leak and never patched it in. It is also possible the old copper was abandoned in the slab and is being fed some how. If it were a leak in the ABS it seems the water would have to stand in the drain to cause a problem above the slab.

Mark

Interesting point on the plastic...if I was to break up his old spot, I could see if there is any plastic by digging up an undisturbed area.

The old copper that was abandoned, that was an idea I had, but I have no movement on the meter indicating any water usage.

I could also prove this with breaking upt he old concrete patch, to see how wet the soil is. If it was to feed back through, I would suspect there should be a muddy mess.

The ABS was already rejected in my head as a cause, this is why I ran the camera and ran the water, the water evacuates the drain, no time for this much moisture.

I think the plastic and removing the section of already patched concrete is a good place to start.

Other then that, is there sucha thing as a "Moisture Specialist" one able to find the cause without trying to sell remediation?

[SlimTim]

Uh, how much rain have ya'll had out there lately?
And I know this is a dumb question, you being a professional and all, but I've got to ask, how long was your meter check with no ticks?

[westcoastplumber]

If the irrigation is being used now (it's still too cold here) there could be a break in one of the lateral lines that will leak underground but only when the system is running AND depending on what is broken it could be massive.
Last year I had one that was dumping about 7 gpm into a french drain and exiting in a culvert about 100' away

Do they have any flower beds against the house? Or even on the opposite side of the drive? You know what crazy paths water can take.

If you want to eliminate this as the problem you can calculate how many gpms the sprinlkers are using on a single zone and then time the meter for a minute or two and see if it adds up.

Good point, ran the sprinklers, no pressure loss in any of the sprinklers and the water bill is very good, no increases of any type.

No flower beds around the house.

The neighbors do have flower beds and landscaping on the opposite side of the drive.

Good point and a good thing to look at.

[westcoastplumber]

Uh, how much rain have ya'll had out there lately?
And I know this is a dumb question, you being a professional and all, but I've got to ask, how long was your meter check with no ticks?


I checked for 5 minutes the first day I was out there, then I marked the meter today, with a thin black marker, left it for 20 mins when I was done running water and making the DVD.

Not much lately, but this problem has been going on for a number of years.

[SlimTim]

I don't want to wear out my welcome on your thread but:
You probably wouldn't notice any loss in pressure in the sprinlkers--a typical full circle residential fixed spray nozzle puts out over 3gpm so if that was happening underground it would be enough to cause your problem but not enough to affect anything else.
My last thought--If there is a simple drip in the wall or a spiders web size spray, depending on your water meter it may not even show up, but it may have been dripping for months. I believe you have a micro see snake don't you?

[SlimTim]

Sorry, I can't stop.
Maybe when they were repiping they put a nail through the cpvc or whatever they used and it has just now rusted out.

[westcoastplumber]

I don't want to wear out my welcome on your thread but:
You probably wouldn't notice any loss in pressure in the sprinlkers--a typical full circle residential fixed spray nozzle puts out over 3gpm so if that was happening underground it would be enough to cause your problem but not enough to affect anything else.
My last thought--If there is a simple drip in the wall or a spiders web size spray, depending on your water meter it may not even show up, but it may have been dripping for months. I believe you have a micro see snake don't you?


No worries, appreciate the brain storming.

I do have a micro, this "Bubbling" is interesting, there are no copper pipes in these walls. The "Bubbling" is in multiple places, no higher then 10" off the floor, and is not lenghty, it is speratic.

The wall does not feel wet at all either, if it wasn't for the bubbling and the insurance guy's moisture detector, you wouldn't even know it was there.

Further irrigation research will be completed in the future though;)

[Australian Plumber Josh]

I would think all water from underslab leaks would have dried in five years.

What type of construction? Timber frame?

Is the wet wall on the "weather" side of the house. ie: exposed to wind driven rain?
Possible leak around window or door opening? Allowing water into the wall? Ineffective flashings to window / door openings ?

Is concrete drive below the height of damp proof course in external wall?
If concrete goes right up to the wall, surface water could be driven against the wall and enter. Esp. if concrete higher than damp proof course.

You camera inspected all drains in the wall leading to upstairs bath? Static test on stackwork?

Leaking cap on wall cleanout?

[gear junkie]

What about a final air test on the dwv system? That would eliminate one aspect if it were to pass.

[flat350]

Any chance it's from a bad grout or caulk job on one of the 2nd floor tubs or showers or the spud on the tub waste ?

[HVAC HAWK]

my house is on a slab and in the summer when the ac is on it still cant drop the humidity so i have to run a dehumidifier to help . i am sure there is no vapor blocker under the slab .
so i would check the dirt like you said to see if it is moist

[drainman881999]

I agree with Flat350__________Might be a good place to look.Any signs that water has been exiting the tub/shower area due to overing tub or no shower curtain? Kenneth

[drainman881999]

That's over flowing tub. Kenneth

[mtnman1100]

I miss slab leaks!

[OkieBill]

Westcoast, Since you mentioned the ants, What are the odds you have a large ant colony under the house that is holding water?

When I lived in SOCAL ( San Bernardino) the giant ant colonies were fairly common and VERY large (2-3 good size house foundations in size).

Off the wall for sure but

You might talk to a local pest control guy to verify:)

[SlimTim]

Mark, I was thinking about the irrigation system today and probably the best way to check it is to turn the nearest zone on and turn off every head on the zone. If the meter is still turning, you've got a leak.

But, you probably already thought of that.

[gear junkie]

Robert, any updates?

[westcoastplumber]

Updates.....kinda

I called Western Exterminator. Ants wouldn't be a cause of the moisture, they are just there because of the moisture, good thought though.

I called the building inspector, moisture barrier is not required, only installed if the plans called for it.

So next week when I have time I will break an old spot and see what happens.

We will then be able to monitor the moisture content and see if it is mud, moist, gets better or worse with the irrigation etc.

As for the humidifier, this is a good idea, just not sure if this would cause a problem in just 2 locations on the same wall. If it was humidity, I would think the bubbles would be multiple places in the house.

Get back to you next week

I appreciate all your thoughts and brainstorming.

[gear junkie]

Your mention of humidity reminded me of a job I saw 2 years ago. Essentially, a house had a new ac unit grossly oversized installed. The house only had 2 tons of cooling and it never got below 80. She wanted it to get down to 65. She had a 5 ton if my memory is right(doubt it but take a chance) and it actually got down to 65 in the summer. The walls were poorly insulated and this caused the walls to sweat. If you took the cover off the switches and outlets, the metal boxes were rusted and the entire house was damp. The walls were CMU block walls. This might be another possibility to look into.

[JCsPlumbing]

Hmmm..... is the house stucco? Stucco can show some of what your seeing if installed incorrectly. Look in the attic also. More than once had rain/dew follow the vent through bad flashing.

Plumbing wise the leaks are usually consistent. You know, leaks everytime you flush, everytime they shower, use this drain or that one. If the meter isn't moving then that settle the water distribution. Unless it leaks at the shower risers or tub spouts.

Also seen drops eventually leak from a drywall nail or screw.

Maybe I missed it, but have you poked a hole in the drywall at the worst spots and took a look with any of your cameras? Keep us posted.

J.C.

[drtyhands]

I'm putting money on sprinklers with the amount of info.Something is being left out,I don't know what.

Cut that blistered paint area.Gonna get patched anyway.

Do you want me to send over a "MOLD SPECIALIST" I saw handing out flyers in front of the grocery store.Society is telling you "you should".I'm an anti-social so I don't.

When are we getting more information.

Adam:D:D

[SlimTim]

Westcoast, what happened with this call?:confused:

[westcoastplumber]

Sorry for not getting back to you guy's

The dirt under the slab was damp, but nothing that would cause the walls to bubble in places.

A concrete contractor went over and said there was nothing around the foundation to protect the foundation and the stucco from moisture, so he estimated the installation of some sill plate.

he didn't warranty it, but was sure it will prevent the moisture buildup between the stucco, concrete and dirt. there were 2 options, trench just the visible area of moisture, or trench around the whole house, 2' deep all the way around to install this protection.

I forgot the name of what was going to be installed, but it was not a plumbing problem:D

the other thing, there was a huge crack in the corner of the slab, that supports the corner of the house, where alot of moisture was entering. that was something else that needed to be repaired.

[ToUtahNow]

Sorry for not getting back to you guy's

The dirt under the slab was damp, but nothing that would cause the walls to bubble in places.

A concrete contractor went over and said there was nothing around the foundation to protect the foundation and the stucco from moisture, so he estimated the installation of some sill plate.

he didn't warranty it, but was sure it will prevent the moisture buildup between the stucco, concrete and dirt. there were 2 options, trench just the visible area of moisture, or trench around the whole house, 2' deep all the way around to install this protection.

I forgot the name of what was going to be installed, but it was not a plumbing problem:D

the other thing, there was a huge crack in the corner of the slab, that supports the corner of the house, where alot of moisture was entering. that was something else that needed to be repaired.

Weep Screed?

Mark

[drtyhands]

Weep Screed?

Mark

This is almost as bad as speculating politicians.

Yeah Mark,if they don't have the stucco flashed at the sill the lawn sprinkler water may not shed before getting under the plate.