Water Heater Replacement

[reConx]

HD markets a water heater replacement kit consisting of (2) flexible stainless steel hoses, (1) flexible steel gas line, teflon tape, (2) compression fit couplers for $19.99. Does anyone have opinions about this kit? I thought gas lines needed gas pipe compound. Hd also sells copper flexible water lines to be used with compression fit couplers. HD sells the kit in my area so I guess it meets code requirements.
Any comments on the GE gas water heaters with the 6-9-12 year warranty that is sold by Home Depot?
Thanks

[Service Guy]

Water heaters are illegal to install without a license in my state.
So...no comment about Home Depot. They make money by convincing everyone to 'do-it-yourself' ...its easy!!!:rolleyes:

[PLUMBER RICK]

the g.e. line of heaters are actually a rheem heater.

stay away from the braided stainless connectors as they burst at the crimp in 3-7 years:eek:

get the copper flexes.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

Home Depot and Lowes water heaters are horrible.

I pull them anywhere from 6 months to 2 years because of leaks or control problems.

They Prorate the warrenty and the customer loses out in the end.

It costs the customer more in the long run.

I can't remember ever pulling out a big box store water heater more then 3 or 4 years old.

[ToUtahNow]

Home Depot and Lowes water heaters are horrible.

I pull them anywhere from 6 months to 2 years because of leaks or control problems.

They Prorate the warrenty and the customer loses out in the end.

It costs the customer more in the long run.

I can't remember ever pulling out a big box store water heater more then 3 or 4 years old.

Of course chances are with the water heater that never have a problem the plumber does not get called.

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

Of course chances are with the water heater that never have a problem the plumber does not get called.

Mark


You may be right, but come down to the supply house and ask the opinion, it is all consistant.

Besides, for what you can get a Bradfor White for, and now the cost of the big box store water heater, it is to close to go witht he crappy one from home depot or lowes.

Besides, once you have a reversed thread thermo couple on a sunday night fail, you lost your savings.

Or a leaker, your gonna rip it out and take it back? you lose by either paying a plumber to go remove it and take it back, pro rate it, and install a new one?

Bradford White has a 6 year tank and 6 year parts warranty. It does not make since to go buy a crappy big box one.:eek:

[ToUtahNow]

Robert,

I don't disagree with you but of course I got stuck with a GE when my heater went out on a weekend.

Mark

[westcoastplumber]

Robert,

I don't disagree with you but of course I got stuck with a GE when my heater went out on a weekend.

Mark


Yeah, I remember the story...when you mentioned it, I went and purchased a

Bradford White just to have in the garage for when yours went out on a sunday:wink2::wink2:

[PLUMBER RICK]

those reverse threaded/ left hand thread thermocouples were from american appliance. the same water heaters we would purchase if we used american appliance.

they stopped using the reverse thread now. plus with the flame guard heaters, you typically had to replace the entire door gasket assy, not just the thermocouple.

as far as a prorated heater goes.

the supply houses now prorate the heaters based on the latest selling price of that model and then charge you the current selling price of the new model. out here in southern calif. that could be pretty spendy as we have gone through a few expensive changes. the flame guard 4 years ago and the lo nox jan. 1st. 08.

so don't be surprised to pay anywhere from a couple hundred to a few hundred on a warranted heater, plus labor.

truthfully with a 75 gallon heater that the owner bought from home depot. there was no prorated charge.

also with all the heaters i've done over the years. less than 5% will ever see warranty issues. i've had my fair share of bad name brand heaters too right out of the box and within a few years too.

if the homeowner wants to supply their own heater, fine with me. let them deliver it and dispose of the old heater too.

as far as i'm concerned, the heaters have the same parts from the same manufactures and just a different label.

remember 30-50 gal. heaters use to cost $120- $165, 4.5 years ago. what do you think you're going to get for that?

today the new gas heaters run $400-465. with all the new technology.

still not to expensive considering they last 6 years or longer. mine is going on 20 years last time i checked.

rick.

[reConx]

Pro-Plumbers,
Thanks for your input on the water heater issue. I will go with compression fittings plus 3/4" copper pipes, pipe joint compound and check out the Bradfords. I usually associated the longer warranty typically meant the heater had better components to ensure a better service life and rarely depended on the pro-rated aspect of the warranty.

[FINER9998]

my HD 12 year warranty GE gas fired HW heater was installed by my son and i 04/2001. unit is flushed twice a year and we have experienced no problems with it. when purchased, GE confirmed, in writing, that should the tank fail within the 12 year warranty period, i get a new heater, same type and quality, to replace the failed unit. unit is installed with black pipe right up to the gas valve and sweated copper on the domestic water connections.

[quickshot]

my HD 12 year warranty GE gas fired HW heater was installed by my son and i 04/2001. unit is flushed twice a year and we have experienced no problems with it. when purchased, GE confirmed, in writing, that should the tank fail within the 12 year warranty period, i get a new heater, same type and quality, to replace the failed unit. unit is installed with black pipe right up to the gas valve and sweated copper on the domestic water connections.

I was working for a Propane company in 1970 and installed a A.O.Smith 40 gal natural gas water heater and it is still going today-three kids and lots of use-I believe it is getting near the end as we do not have the amount of hot water as we used to.

[JERRYMAC]

THAT THE WAY ALL MFG'S WARRENITYS WORK; :ok:

BUT RICK IS ALSO RIGHT IF THE AHJ. HAS MADE DIFFERENT RQUIREMENTS THEN YOU HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR THE UPGRADE
AS THE MFG. CAN NO LONGER SUPPLY THE EXACT REPLACEMENT TO NEW CODE. :smack-head:

[flat350]

I've seen the copper flex couplers that they sell for water heaters self destruct in a few years with water that is a little aggresive and i don't really like the idea of a flexible gas line in an exposed location .

[JCsPlumbing]

Water heaters. My opinion is that all manufacturers have thinned the linings and the metal tanks. So that if you replace ABC heater that lasted 20 years with the exact same brand/current model it might only last 10 years.

J.C.

[TOPDAWG]

It doesn't mater if you have a 5 year tank or a 10 year tank , they are one in the same, you just pay more for the longer warranty with the manufacturer taking the gamble that you will not use the warranty when the tank expires or it will out last what ever warranty tank that you may have.

[TOPDAWG]

As for piping the tank I would hard pipe it unless you live in a earthquake prone area like California.

[wrongler]

I agree with TOPDAWG. I don't like using flex lines either. I know some guys like to but I always hardpipe my work.

[gear junkie]

I installed my parents water heater when I was 15 (29 now). Still no problems and it looks like a total hack job but it lasted 14 years now. Trying to convince my Dad to get a Rheem marathon WH but he won't go for it. I think I should just replace the wh to cya.

[OkieBill]

U.S. Craftmaster is still making water heaters and they still have left hand thread thermocouples... My local Hardware supply sells them.

Though they are known around here by their real name "Crapmaster's"

By far the worst water heater ever made! IMO

[toolaholic]

Hay Flat 350 ,When was the last E Quake in Chicago ???? Flex is good in Shakey Cal.

[flat350]

Haven't you heard that the New Madrid fault is going to be the next big one here , last time it shook it moved the Mississippi over a mile . Run some good ole Illinois well water thru that copper flex and it will wear out in a couple of years ,maybe it's the barium in the water that does it

[quickshot]

As I stated earlier that I installed a A.O.Smith 40 gal gas WH in 1970 and I know sometime in the near future I will have to be installing a new one. What is a good quality unit. know the worst part of it will be getting the old one up the stairs and outside. Thanks

[reConx]

You may be right, but come down to the supply house and ask the opinion, it is all consistant.

Besides, for what you can get a Bradfor White for, and now the cost of the big box store water heater, it is to close to go witht he crappy one from home depot or lowes.

Besides, once you have a reversed thread thermo couple on a sunday night fail, you lost your savings.

Or a leaker, your gonna rip it out and take it back? you lose by either paying a plumber to go remove it and take it back, pro rate it, and install a new one?

Bradford White has a 6 year tank and 6 year parts warranty. It does not make since to go buy a crappy big box one.:eek:

Pro Plumbers,
I picked up two Bradford 50 gal nat. gas units for two remodeling jobs that suddenly had heater leaks. The price for the Bradford was just like WestCoast stated versus HD/Lowes. Thanks for all the info and helpful hints/links. This seems to be a pretty hot topic based on the different posts and view numbers.
One last question: Use compression bushings to connect the 3/4 pipe sections or the sharkbite units?

[Devine Plumbing]

Pro Plumbers,
I picked up two Bradford 50 gal nat. gas units for two remodeling jobs that suddenly had heater leaks. The price for the Bradford was just like WestCoast stated versus HD/Lowes. Thanks for all the info and helpful hints/links. This seems to be a pretty hot topic based on the different posts and view numbers.
One last question: Use compression bushings to connect the 3/4 pipe sections or the sharkbite units?

Neither. Do not use flex supplies, Qest couplings, compression unions, or sharkbite fittings. To make sure you have a leakproof connection use dielectric unions if you are installing to copper piping, with solder couplings. If you are dealing with CPVC or PEX make sure you make a solid connection with threaded fittings as appropriate for your your piping and teflon tape.

[boillerman]

Definately check out the Bradford or Lochinvar (same heater). I'm not sure if it's the GE, but it seems like it is, one of them you can't get to the filter if you ever have to brush it. With BW, you might have to snip the very bottom of the jacket a little, but at least laundry or construction dust plugging it up can be cleaned pretty easily. Something to consider if you're putting a heater in a less than ideal environment:rolleyes: Some of the thermocouples on the newer heaters have resistors built into them, and when the combustion air gets plugged it takes them out. Not a big deal if you're willing to stock the parts too I guess.

[boillerman]

You don't need dielectric unions that leak down the road do you? I mean you already have dielectric nipples. Just solder up a female adapter and connect it with a sweat coupling. If you have plastic, around here you have to run something else the first 18" (like copper or galvyuk).

[reConx]

I did a search on "shark" and there seems to be good discussions on the forum about their proper use in the plumbing world. I will get bz soldering copper pipe unions just like a proplumber would...I was just hoping to make it ez in and out but I guess not....

[JERRYMAC]

You may be right, but come down to the supply house and ask the opinion, it is all consistent.

Besides, for what you can get a Bradford White for, and now the cost of the big box store water heater, it is to close to go with he crappy one from home depot or Lowe's.

Besides, once you have a reversed thread thermo couple on a Sunday night fail, you lost your savings.

Or a leaker, your gonna rip it out and take it back? you lose by either paying a plumber to go remove it and take it back, pro rate it, and install a new one?

Bradford White has a 6 year tank and 6 year parts warranty. It does not make since to go buy a crappy big box one.:eek:

FOR ALL YOU WHO WANT TO KNOW
ALL WATER HEATER MFG'S OFFER A 6 YR.
PARTS AND TANK WARRANTY ON THEIR RESID. WATER HEATERS,
ALSO ALL MFG'S LIMIT THE NEW REPLACEMENT TO THE UNUSED PORTION OF
THE FIRST WARRANTY :poke:

[JCsPlumbing]

As I stated earlier that I installed a A.O.Smith 40 gal gas WH in 1970 and I know sometime in the near future I will have to be installing a new one. What is a good quality unit. know the worst part of it will be getting the old one up the stairs and outside. Thanks

Hmmm... A good quality unit. This is my opinion. Replace with a comparable Rheem or Bradford White tank model. Either one will probably come with factory installed nipples with plastic linings. Two engineers and inspectors have confirmed that a dilectric reaction can occur with direct contact with copper although I haven't found an old setup as this to meter. So you can use dilectric unions but they fail faster than traditional threaded connections in my experience. May sound crazy but use a brass coupling on top of the nipple then sweat a male adapter to copper and connect. Install an extra anode rod of the same material. Drain & clean at least annually. That's it. Should last a long time.

Why not A.O. Smith like your old one? First, A.O. has had a few problems with their FVIR system in my experience. It's a little finicky in the right or wrong situation. This may have been corrected. While on the topic of FVIR make sure that you have proper makeup air for the system. The old one may have been more forgiving while some newer ones can shut down with inproper combustion/vent system.

Second, A.O. Smith uses an aluminum based anode rod. At least for the Southeast. While providing decent protection there is some question as to potential health risks such as Alzheimers. No concrete proof but why risk it. We used to use alot of lead too.

On a conspiracy note I kind of feel heater manufacturers have maybe perfected "failure rates" with thinner linings and steel tanks or different compositions. Otherwise you should be able to replace your heater, do nothing extra or different, and it last 30 years. Provided no water chemical change.

But I doubt it would. :( I understand it though. They've got to stay in business. And so do we.:D Good luck! Call a plumber to help!

J.C.

[PLUMBER RICK]

FOR ALL YOU WHO WANT TO KNOW
ALL WATER HEATER MFG'S OFFER A 6 YR.
PARTS AND TANK WARRANTY ON THEIR RESID. WATER HEATERS,
ALSO ALL MFG'S LIMIT THE NEW REPLACEMENT TO THE UNUSED PORTION OF
THE FIRST WARRANTY :poke:

not exactly according to the bulletin i have read at the supply house.

they are giving full credit to the leaker for the most recent price it was last sold for. lets just say it sold for $325. in 2004.

since the heater has gone up and the new lo nox heater ($450) has replaced the fvir heater. the current price is charged and the difference is paid. $125. for this, the manufacture is giving you a new 6 year warranty.

before when it was an even exchange. then your example was correct.

this is the way i've been told and the way the supply house has posted the bulletin.

rick.

[boillerman]

We've been using copper fem adapts to the nipples ever since BW started using them. I've done thousands of hw low pressure calls over the years, and every time I've seen electalysis in the copper it's been male adapts directly into the tank. I was told by BW that they are dielectic nipples, and I've yet to see electralysis in any of them.

Not to digress, but I read brass leaches lead too. How far do we go with paranoia?

[JCsPlumbing]

We've been using copper fem adapts to the nipples ever since BW started using them. I've done thousands of hw low pressure calls over the years, and every time I've seen electalysis in the copper it's been male adapts directly into the tank. I was told by BW that they are dielectic nipples, and I've yet to see electralysis in any of them.

Not to digress, but I read brass leaches lead too. How far do we go with paranoia?

I brought up the same point to the inspector that made me cut out my directly connected to the factory male nipple female copper adapters. Seems alot of things get to the point of engineering redundancy. The heater will probably start leaking before either type of connection were to give a problem.

But in NC (and maybe everywhere, I don't know) the codes are heavily reviewed, controlled, or influenced by the department of insurance. And they are influenced by the insurance company lobbyists. So codes will become more and more stringent in my opinion. Then insurance has to pay less claims. Maybe that's good. I don't know.:confused:

Who knows, one day we might be putting in all Type K water distribution with brazed joints.

J.C.

[westcoastplumber]

I have gone to many water heater calls with mip's directly into the tank, especially on 75 gallon, they develop leaks.

I would rather use a 6" brass nipple and then a fip.

I don't use dielectric unions because I have seen those fail and just don't like them, I feel there is a better way to complete the task.

There is a corrigated stainless steel water heater flex line out now, you can tie it in a tight knot and not kink it, it looks like metal conduit, these are less expensive then copper and bend really nicely.

[SlimTim]

Can anyone tell me the flow rate through a standard water heater considering the heat traps and narrowed dielectric nipples?
The Bradford White high performance heater is only rated at 5 gpm but it has an integral mixing valve at the outlet. It's the only thing holding me back from recommending these.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Can anyone tell me the flow rate through a standard water heater considering the heat traps and narrowed dielectric nipples?
The Bradford White high performance heater is only rated at 5 gpm but it has an integral mixing valve at the outlet. It's the only thing holding me back from recommending these.

5gpm is probably through the heater. then the gpm is increased from the mixing valve i hope.

a regular tank heater is much more than 5 gpm. i know those heat trap nipples can be restrictive, but not down to 5 gpm.

i have a pressure/ and flow gage that i can attempt to connect on the next outdoor installation to get a reading. i would hope to read 15+gpm.
on a 3/4'' installation. i will get a pre heater reading and a post heater reading. give me a chance to do this as i need an outdoor job to keep it simple.

rick.

[SlimTim]

5gpm is probably through the heater. then the gpm is increased from the mixing valve i hope.

a regular tank heater is much more than 5 gpm. i know those heat trap nipples can be restrictive, but not down to 5 gpm.

i have a pressure/ and flow gage that i can attempt to connect on the next outdoor installation to get a reading. i would hope to read 15+gpm.
on a 3/4'' installation. i will get a pre heater reading and a post heater reading. give me a chance to do this as i need an outdoor job to keep it simple.

rick.

Thanks Rick, that would be a big help. The tech guy on the phone at Bradford White told me 5gpm out of the mixing valve and I about dropped the phone. I had had high hopes for the BW high performance around here to compete with the tankless but not at those flow rates.

[PLUMBER RICK]

Thanks Rick, that would be a big help. The tech guy on the phone at Bradford White told me 5gpm out of the mixing valve and I about dropped the phone. I had had high hopes for the BW high performance around here to compete with the tankless but not at those flow rates.

tim, the tech is much more knowledgeable than i would be in their product line.

i can picture that the heater is a high btu with low storage capacity.

the advantage would be that the gas (1/2'')and vent line (4'') would not require changing and it would then be an easy swap.

the 5gpm would be little difference than a regular tankless is now.

please post a link to this model heater. i know i looked into it a couple of weeks ago.

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

Thanks Rick, that would be a big help. The tech guy on the phone at Bradford White told me 5gpm out of the mixing valve and I about dropped the phone. I had had high hopes for the BW high performance around here to compete with the tankless but not at those flow rates.


You must be speaking of the new 25 gallon with the mixing valve, you set the thermostate all the way up and let it run.

Of course it is going to reduce the GPM, because it has to replace the reheat the incomming water to maintain recovery.

I am getting about 7 to 7.5 from the 9.5 gpm tankless unit right now, on average, the rinnai unit.

This is with incomming water at approx 60 degrees.

Bradford white came out with the 25 gallon unit to compete with the install costs of the tankless retrofits. Bradford also makes a tankless unit, but it is not of the same quality as there tank type and the Rinnai brand.

If you need the model number, I will have to get it from my bradford manuel in my van.

[PLUMBER RICK]

the bradford site is not very user friendly.

i posted the direct link to the heater we are referring to.

there is no info on gpm. only first hour delivery.

5 gpm is probably not very feasable for most residential applications.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/shared/pdfs/specsheets/315B.pdf

rick.

[westcoastplumber]

the bradford site is not very user friendly.

i posted the direct link to the heater we are referring to.

there is no info on gpm. only first hour delivery.

5 gpm is probably not very feasable for most residential applications.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/shared/pdfs/specsheets/315B.pdf

rick.


I agree on the Bradford Site, it sucks.

I am glad you found it, I was unable to, I was gonna go down and get the book later.

[SlimTim]

I wish I had posted this at the discussion forum so I wouldn't be going back and forth so much.

Robert, the hybrid you linked to at the other forum is only 3.5 gpm at 90 degree rise. Our water here for most the winter hovers at 40 degrees.

So, using the hybrid (or tankless for that matter), to supply a storage tank and a recirc, to keep it hot, would keep my gpm up as long I DON'T install a check valve where I indicated in my 2nd drawing. Does that sound correct?

[boillerman]

I agree on the Bradford Site, it sucks.

I am glad you found it, I was unable to, I was gonna go down and get the book later.

Looks like that heater has a very specific application, and residential wouldn't be one of them

[JCsPlumbing]

[quote=SlimTim;140106]Our water here for most the winter hovers at 40 degrees.

Tim, remember the thread awhile back talking about tankless. :)

Your statement right there is why I steer away from them. Our temps. are about the same. And consumers never consider this. You have to calculate there hot water needs for the coldest times in their year. Go put in 40 degree incoming in any of the tankless models and see what you get.

J.C.

[SlimTim]

Looks like that heater has a very specific application, and residential wouldn't be one of them

Why wouldn't residential be one of them, Boilerman?

[SlimTim]

Tim, remember the thread awhile back talking about tankless. :)

Your statement right there is why I steer away from them. Our temps. are about the same. And consumers never consider this. You have to calculate there hot water needs for the coldest times in their year. Go put in 40 degree incoming in any of the tankless models and see what you get.

J.C.[/quote]

Agreed, but when I ask people living here how they like their tankless, it's always, "love it". Of course, if I spent all that money on one I would say that too even if it sucked.
If the tankless were dedicated simply for the master bathroom only (as one of my customers has done) then it's feasible, imnsho.

[westcoastplumber]

Tim, remember the thread awhile back talking about tankless. :)

Your statement right there is why I steer away from them. Our temps. are about the same. And consumers never consider this. You have to calculate there hot water needs for the coldest times in their year. Go put in 40 degree incoming in any of the tankless models and see what you get.

J.C.

Agreed, but when I ask people living here how they like their tankless, it's always, "love it". Of course, if I spent all that money on one I would say that too even if it sucked.
If the tankless were dedicated simply for the master bathroom only (as one of my customers has done) then it's feasible, imnsho.[/quote]



SlimTim,

I hear the same from my repeat customers, I also make sure to follow up on the ones I have repaired, who wanted it removed from their house because of improper installation. They hated the word tankless and everything about it.

No complaints.

[boillerman]

Why wouldn't residential be one of them, Boilerman?

The limited flow. It appears to be for running a hose for a long time, but if you limit your flow that much in a house, you're right back to the restrictions you have w/ tankless. You might as well throw a regular high btu wh in and/or put a mixer that gives you the quantity you need. The wh at the website in that link is a light duty commercial, which would seem like better than residential.