How can we "Green" up our industry?

[BAPlumber]

I was recently asked this question and I replied with "energy efficient" appliances and recirc systems.

What are some other ideas? Materials we use and "green" alternatives, energy efficiency, water savings etc.

[DUNBAR]

Go back to all metallic piping for water and drainage. All of it is recyclable for the most part and can be reused again and again and again.

Plastic has a horrible devastation to the impact of the enviornment.

Has ZERO value when it's removed or discarded from homes in varied uses from plumbing to other aspects.



I come from an era where you hunted for aluminum cans because they weighed enough to be worth collecting for money,

soft drink bottles were refunded if you found them on the streets/garbage.

Even newspapers if you filled 3 basements up, was a potential for value.

Plastics take forever to degrade......now you know why they are trying to bring the simple paper bag back; they now realize those bags from 20 years ago are not breaking down.



The leaking 1/2" CPVC joint I have to rework friday, along with the piece of **** plastic 3/4" main shutoff that has not a chance of closing, will have no value when I replace it copper.

Those two pieces will not degrade for probably a couple hundred years....probably longer.

[Masterplumb]

I was recently asked this question and I replied with "energy efficient" appliances and recirc systems.

What are some other ideas? Materials we use and "green" alternatives, energy efficiency, water savings etc.

I agree with the energy efficient appliances.I dont like waste but I am not one of these save the enviroment guys.

I dont believe global warming is man made.

I like having my shower with 8 body sprays and 2 shower heads running at the same time, and oh my god, I even took the flow restrictors out!:eek:

I drive a Lincoln Navigator that gets 9mpg and my Ford van gets about 6mpg.;)

[Hondahead]

Grey water reclaimation, storm water harvesting, drain water heat recovery, geoexchange heating and cooling, energy recovery ventilators...

[OkieBill]

Green cleaning chemicals:-)

Geothermal heating and cooling HVAC and Plumbing.

Europe uses 4 cyl service trucks due to gas prices... Is that the direction we are going? :shakehead:

[plumberscrack]

Dunbar has a good point about the plastic pipe but I'll find other work before I thread 2" galvanized pipe again

I was working in a new "GREEN" house last month. Loads of recycled materials used. 3 times the amount of money to build and none of the recycled raw materials were readily available so took 3 years to build.

The house that stood there before this one?.....went to the landfill :eek:
not so green now is it?

Troubleshooting a customer installed programmable thermostat I casually asked where the old mercury one was now. "oh I tossed that in the trash"
Great lady, you saved yourself a few dollars each month on gas but poisoned a thousand fish. Now I won't be able to enjoy my tuna steak tonight.

We are easily 10 years behind the europeans in terms of efficiency levels of our boilers. Lots of improvement needs to be made there. I believe higher fuel costs are a wakeup call and we better pay attention this time. We americans seem to have a short term memory after an energy crisis.

[NHMaster3015]

Before "going green" lots of unbiased research should be done. Many of the so called green solutions cause more problems than they solve. Most of this global warming trend is a huge marketing scam making bocu bucks for guys that don't give a damn about the environment.

[ProBrand]

Interesting topic. Certainly the buzz in the industry. Hard to walk down a trade show aisle or read a trade publication without seeing reference to "green." I've been looking at the Green Plumbers association. It started in Australia and is making inroads in the US. The gist is that they offer a certification course. Upon completion, you are considered and can advertise as a green plumber. Has anyone looked at this or do you think there is any value in the program? Link is below for reference. Thanks in advance for any insight here.

http://www.greenplumbersusa.com/

[Big Dog]

doing my part.... I put in a septic system when I built my house, now I have green all over the yard:D

[AFM]

Before "going green" lots of unbiased research should be done. Many of the so called green solutions cause more problems than they solve. Most of this global warming trend is a huge marketing scam making bocu bucks for guys that don't give a damn about the environment.

We have the same in Australia we are offered green power from wind turbins but I like mine from dirty brown coal as I want to have a beach frontage in one hundred thousand years, what is happening has happed many time before on earth over the millions of years it has been here it is nothing new and there are big bucks in it and we the suck at the bottom will pay for it in higher energy costs.

Tony:lmao:

[haycad]

if people want to go green the goverment needs to start taxing on the amount of kids you have. more kids more taxes. if people continue to multiply themselves six times over and there kids and there kids. do the math it doesnt matter how efficient we are. medicine keeps getting better and more people are living longer. we are running out of room. is it going to effect us probably not and probably not our 12 kids. but it will happen soon

[Masterplumb]

if people want to go green the goverment needs to start taxing on the amount of kids you have. more kids more taxes. if people continue to multiply themselves six times over and there kids and there kids. do the math it doesnt matter how efficient we are. medicine keeps getting better and more people are living longer. we are running out of room. is it going to effect us probably not and probably not our 12 kids. but it will happen soon

You're kidding right? Are we now a communist nation?

[cpw]

You're kidding right? Are we now a communist nation?
There are European academics who have proposed just that, tax on kids. The whole "green" thing is just a scam to tax us more. I don't beleive in man-made global warming, and I certainly don't think that America is at fault; like a lot of people do. Americans have actually had a slower rate of CO2 emissions increase than Kyoto countries.

I am of the opinion that the greenest way to do something is usually the cheapest way to do it when you consider property rights. Simple example, if I dump something into a river it is cheaper than disposing of it properly; but my downstream neighbor should then be able to sue me out of existence to clean it up properly; because I damaged their property. Thus, it would have been cheaper to dispose of it properly in the first place.

[NHMaster3015]

New Hampshire is around 2" short of record snow fall since the 18 hundreds. Its global warming. Last summer we had record heat. It's global warming. Back in the 70's when I was in college they were all warning of the coming ice age. Why do we listen to and believe these HACKS. I am so damn sick of this debate and because of my position at a public high school I am inundated with the crap all the time from brain dead liberals who truley believe that man should be eradicated from the earth so that all the furry little animals can live in peace. Though because they drive a Hybrid, eat rabbit food, wear sandals and watch PBS their lives will naturally be spared.
Elitist bastards all of them, who should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

[cpw]

Though because they drive a Hybrid, eat rabbit food, wear sandals and watch PBS their lives will naturally be spared.
Don't forget that their more expensive Hybrid has very expensive batteries, which are SOOO environmentally friendly to produce. Hybrids don't come close to annoying me as much carbon credits. Let me spend money to assuage my guilt, and force everyone else in the world to do the same! :angry:

I do watch PBS every week to see Norm build something. :)

[PLUMBER RICK]

we found out in the early 70's that solar water heating was a good tax incentive, but not a good money saver.

how many solar heaters are still in operation and over the cost of installation and replacement parts, are still in operation and seeing a savings:confused:

i would like to install solar electric panels at my shop. i have a large roof doing nothing and i don't mind spending the money (20k)

problem is, the power co. will not pay me back for any excess power i produce. my current water and power bill is approx. $18.00 a month with all the taxes. i'm not there much and out of the $18.00 only $1.00 is actual power use. less than 10kwh a month:D

so for me to install a system right now with no payback from the power company would be a waste of money.

if, they pay for excess power produced, i would then do the math and have a good payback plan, plus a write off to boot.

give me an incentive to spend my money and i will produce clean power for others to use.

rick.

i have a customer that spent 160k on his system for his high end furniture shop. he installed 90% of it himself, even getting his contractors license just for this and his house. even though he saves $5,000 a month on power. he produces more and is not compensated for the excess. so his payback is less than 3 years which is great. but down the road his panels will become less efficient and will start to drop off. along with his inverters that put out 3 phase.

[Service Guy]

You're kidding right? Are we now a communist nation?

So what is your solution?

Its a lot easier to criticize other people's ideas than it is to come of up with your own viable solutions.

[NHMaster3015]

And Rick, guess what's coming back with a vengence. You guess it, solar. It was'nt cost effective twenty years ago and it's not cost effective today either. But that won't stop people from wasting their money. god bless them.

There's a sucker born every minute. P.T. Barnham

[Masterplumb]

So what is your solution?

Its a lot easier to criticize other people's ideas than it is to come of up with your own viable solutions.


So let me get this straight, the more children you have the higher your taxes? Or if you have over x amount of kids you are charged a surcharge/tax?

Solution to what service guy? Solution to global warming? climate change? acid rain? Ice age? what is it goin to be this week? You want a solution, smaller government and keep the government out of our lives, stop unnecessary spending like useless government assistance programs.

We can go green all we want, other countries/nations arent going to do the same anyway so whats the use? Make up new taxes as we go along?

Yeah it's just what we need, higher taxes, keep taxing the businesses untill they all go to china, india and every where else that is giving tax breaks. With the corporations goes the jobs. Maybe you feel we need new/higher taxes, I dont.

[Service Guy]

So let me get this straight, the more children you have the higher your taxes? Or if you have over x amount of kids you are charged a surcharge/tax?

Solution to what service guy? Solution to global warming? climate change? acid rain? Ice age? what is it goin to be this week? You want a solution, smaller government and keep the government out of our lives, stop unnecessary spending like useless government assistance programs.

We can go green all we want, other countries/nations arent going to do the same anyway so whats the use? Make up new taxes as we go along?

Yeah it's just what we need, higher taxes, keep taxing the businesses untill they all go to china, india and every where else that is giving tax breaks. With the corporations goes the jobs. Maybe you feel we need new/higher taxes, I dont.

Environmental issues. Air and water pollution, ever-increasing landfills, etc.
Thats what this thread is about.
What do you propose to do about it? Or you just don't care. I am not saying higher taxes is the answer, but hopefully there are some solutions out there. And denying the ever-increasing pollution isn't going to make it go away.

[plumberscrack]

New Hampshire is around 2" short of record snow fall since the 18 hundreds. Its global warming. Last summer we had record heat. It's global warming. Back in the 70's when I was in college they were all warning of the coming ice age. Why do we listen to and believe these HACKS. I am so damn sick of this debate and because of my position at a public high school I am inundated with the crap all the time from brain dead liberals who truley believe that man should be eradicated from the earth so that all the furry little animals can live in peace. Though because they drive a Hybrid, eat rabbit food, wear sandals and watch PBS their lives will naturally be spared.
Elitist bastards all of them, who should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.


Now THAT was an awsum post! :bravo:

[Service Guy]

To do my part I recycle all glass, cardboard, plastic and metal. In my business and personal use. Its not much, but its my own personal contribution to keep the earth from becoming one giant landfill.:)

I keep wondering what is going to happen when the world runs out of oil? That will be scary.:eek:

[Masterplumb]

Environmental issues. Air and water pollution, ever-increasing landfills, etc.
Thats what this thread is about.
What do you propose to do about it? Or you just don't care. I am not saying higher taxes is the answer, but hopefully there are some solutions out there. And denying the ever-increasing pollution isn't going to make it go away.


I thought the post was named "greening up our industry" not what are we going to do about landfills, air pollution and water pollution.

What do I plan on doing about it? I plan on following the law like I have to.

So if you're so worried about the enviroment, I guess you dont use pvc, cpvc, primers, glues and any other type of plastic including hangars and any other hardware do you? As Dunbar stated the half-life of this stuff is unbelievably long.

What is your work vehicle? A VW bug or a Toyota hybrid? Or some type of pick up or van?

Do you car pool when you go places? Do you only use one square of t.p. when you go to the bathroom?

Do you flush the toilet after every 3 pee's?

Sounds rediculous right?

Well. what say you? Do you walk the walk or just talk the talk?:nanner:

How about those booties on your feet in the picture do you recycle them????

And do you use those channell locks on shut-off's, faucets and other chrome?

[Service Guy]

I thought the post was named "greening up our industry" not what are we going to do about landfills, air pollution and water pollution.


Doing something about our plumbing business waste IS greening up our industry.

[haycad]

So let me get this straight, the more children you have the higher your taxes? Or if you have over x amount of kids you are charged a surcharge/tax?

Solution to what service guy? Solution to global warming? climate change? acid rain? Ice age? what is it goin to be this week? You want a solution, smaller government and keep the government out of our lives, stop unnecessary spending like useless government assistance programs.

We can go green all we want, other countries/nations arent going to do the same anyway so whats the use? Make up new taxes as we go along?

Yeah it's just what we need, higher taxes, keep taxing the businesses untill they all go to china, india and every where else that is giving tax breaks. With the corporations goes the jobs. Maybe you feel we need new/higher taxes, I dont.
Sorry instead of saying the goverment needs to i should have said they would have too. im not a tree hugger in any way but its common sense though look how much waste one person produces in a year than multiply that by 75 years than multiply that by the 4 children they have. people dont react until it cost them money. you take a person that has 4 kids that they cant afford to pay child care for, so they get on state assistance and stay home all day raising our taxes any way. its cheaper for them to stay home. why not do the opposite give people an insentive to work to make money not have more kids to make money.

[Masterplumb]

Sorry instead of saying the goverment needs to i should have said they would have too. im not a tree hugger in any way but its common sense though look how much waste one person produces in a year than multiply that by 75 years than multiply that by the 4 children they have. people dont react until it cost them money. you take a person that has 4 kids that they cant afford to pay child care for, so they get on state assistance and stay home all day raising our taxes any way. its cheaper for them to stay home. why not do the opposite give people an insentive to work to make money not have more kids to make money.

I guess its me, but I dont understand your logic. Because I have 4 kids I should pay an enviromental tax or something? Im sorry, I just cant comprehend those liberal views. Thats right up there with wealth redistribution, universal health care, and reverend Wright.

[haycad]

how much polution does a hybrid car save? how much energy does a solar furnace save? its not compareable to the amount of pollution another body produces, you may not be concerned with global warming or pollution but you will soon be the minority on that. but some day the goverment will realize alternative fuel and high efficiency appliances are not enough. if you paid tax on your 4th kid would you have still had him?

[cpw]

Sorry instead of saying the goverment needs to i should have said they would have too. im not a tree hugger in any way but its common sense though look how much waste one person produces in a year than multiply that by 75 years than multiply that by the 4 children they have. people dont react until it cost them money. you take a person that has 4 kids that they cant afford to pay child care for, so they get on state assistance and stay home all day raising our taxes any way. its cheaper for them to stay home. why not do the opposite give people an insentive to work to make money not have more kids to make money.
If you don't want people to create waste in landfills don't tax children tax waste. In some cities you have to buy special garbage bags to put your trash out in. In others you have to buy a sticker every year for every trash can you use. Charge for the result not what you think is the cause! Also after 18 years, my kids will be productive members of society; and will pay those taxes on their own. I am all for cutting government assistance to people, that doesn't mean you need to tax kids.

[NHMaster3015]

If you don't want people to create waste in landfills don't tax children tax waste. In some cities you have to buy special garbage bags to put your trash out in. In others you have to buy a sticker every year for every trash can you use. Charge for the result not what you think is the cause! Also after 18 years, my kids will be productive members of society; and will pay those taxes on their own. I am all for cutting government assistance to people, that doesn't mean you need to tax kids.

This is the kind of solution that leads to garbage getting tossed on the side of the road.

[haycad]

i just think you have to find the source of problems. and until humans change we are the problem. we've only been here for a blink of and eye compared to the age of the planet. and look at the outcome. cars are one of the biggest in polution and look what they have done in 100 years. this worlds gonna be to small real quick.

[haycad]

check this out. is it global warming? probably not i would call it supply and demand http://www.overpopulation.org/

[Masterplumb]

how much polution does a hybrid car save? how much energy does a solar furnace save? its not compareable to the amount of pollution another body produces, you may not be concerned with global warming or pollution but you will soon be the minority on that. but some day the goverment will realize alternative fuel and high efficiency appliances are not enough. if you paid tax on your 4th kid would you have still had him?

Things you are proposing are UN-AMERICAN.

There are just as many scientists refuting global warming as there are saying it is man made. It's funny Al Gore makes this move and tells us to ride bikes to work and use mass transit and all that other crap, but he travels the world promoting his movie on a private jet, has a 23,000 square foot house that he has to heat and cool but you and I should ride our bikes to work. Oh I forgot he offsets the heating/cooling bill with carbon credits!!!!

This is not China where the government can regulate how many children one has. That is called FREEDOM, the very thing our fore-fathers fought for some 230 years ago. I agree people that cant afford them shouldn't have them, you have to be responsible in the decisions you make, but you cant go taxing someone because the have more then x amount of children.

[Big Dog]

It may be easy to say the world is way too crowded if you're in a city of several million people, but if you get a chance, take a drive west from Odessa toward El Paso...

[smelly]

well I think you guys are barking up the wrong pipe,some ideas are good some are not. I beleive we should conserve like more masstransit... it should be free too. trains in most parts of the world can use magnetic drive, no moving parts .elelctric ars are good too check out the "telsa" sure its expensive but mass production cand bring the price down.

and for the communist in me there should only be two car companys with only a few models and a few colors, you want another color go to a shop and have it done. same thing with many products on the market plave how many models of toaster does there have to be to brown toast......
:party-on:

there are many things that can be done,to improve our lot on this planet.

and as for kids / two per family is more that enough, and you should have to take a course on how to raise kids.

well that my two cents worth:thud:

[Masterplumb]

well I think you guys are barking up the wrong pipe,some ideas are good some are not. I beleive we should conserve like more masstransit... it should be free too. trains in most parts of the world can use magnetic drive, no moving parts .elelctric ars are good too check out the "telsa" sure its expensive but mass production cand bring the price down.

and for the communist in me there should only be two car companys with only a few models and a few colors, you want another color go to a shop and have it done. same thing with many products on the market plave how many models of toaster does there have to be to brown toast......
:party-on:

there are many things that can be done,to improve our lot on this planet.

and as for kids / two per family is more that enough, and you should have to take a course on how to raise kids.

well that my two cents worth:thud:

See we live in a capitalistic society. If you only make 2 types of cars in only a few colors, someone else will come and cater to you. This is the advantage of living under a capitalist society.

If 2 kids are enough for you thats great pal, but what works for you may not work for me or the next guy. Again, just one of the benefits of living in the greatest country in the world.:twofinger:

[Big Dog]

Had 2, thought that was enough until 1 passed away at 18 in a car wreck. Now I wish I had 2 or 3 more just for spares;)

BAPlumber, sorry to hijack your thread. If you believe in the need to 'green-up', then by all means conserve everywhere you can. Being more organized would help me not to have to make as many trips to the big orange! But then, I wouldn't be able to lust after the tools there.

[haycad]

See we live in a capitalistic society. If you only make 2 types of cars in only a few colors, someone else will come and cater to you. This is the advantage of living under a capitalist society.

If 2 kids are enough for you thats great pal, but what works for you may not work for me or the next guy. Again, just one of the benefits of living in the greatest country in the world.:twofinger:
you can have all the kids you want but make sure you leave a picture of a salmon to pass down to your great grandkids so they know what one looks like.
and big dog imagine all that land outside of el paso filled with track homes and apartment buildings. i was born and raised in the country there wasnt a house within a mile 3 years ago i helped plumb the 1500 house sub division where we used to play hide and seek. my graduating class had 97 kids last year there were over 400. i dont know about you i enjoy driving through the country and not seeing a house or a person for miles. i would like to keep it that way too. but if every person clones themselves over and over again where are they going to go?

[BAPlumber]

BAPlumber, sorry to hijack your thread. If you believe in the need to 'green-up', then by all means conserve everywhere you can. Being more organized would help me not to have to make as many trips to the big orange! But then, I wouldn't be able to lust after the tools there.

I don't really believe in the need to "green up" the industry, the only thing I do is recycle copper. This was a question that was posed to me, and to get more insight I posted the question here.

[haycad]

yeah sorry for the hijack, i drive bio diesel vans and recycle copper thats about it, i have just started in recycleing rain water, for irrigation

[Big Dog]

BA
looking forward to recycleing some copper. We pulled copper lines from an old propane tank that went to the house and also went to a bldg way out back of the property. Might get enough $$ for a cold root-beer!

[SlimTim]

you can have all the kids you want but make sure you leave a picture of a salmon to pass down to your great grandkids so they know what one looks like.
and big dog imagine all that land outside of el paso filled with track homes and apartment buildings. i was born and raised in the country there wasnt a house within a mile 3 years ago i helped plumb the 1500 house sub division where we used to play hide and seek. my graduating class had 97 kids last year there were over 400. i dont know about you i enjoy driving through the country and not seeing a house or a person for miles. i would like to keep it that way too. but if every person clones themselves over and over again where are they going to go?


Aren't you glad your parents didn't say "you know 50 people in our graduating class is way too many, let's do our part and not have any kids."?

Kids are taxed now. I haven't been able to raise mine tax free. It keeps the economy buzzing.
But, if you put on an added charge just for having children, the abortion rate will skyrocket imho.

I'm all for keeping things clean. But, I think alot of the environmental scare is fear mongering and power grabs.

[NHMaster3015]

"Propaganda is a powerfull weapon" Heinrich Himmler

[Masterplumb]

[quote=haycad;136699] i dont know about you i enjoy driving through the country and not seeing a house or a person for miles. i would like to keep it that way too.

So buy up all the property thats for sale around you, build yourself a nice little "green compound" with windmills and solar panels and you and your salmon can hide out there and live happily ever after.:wave2:

[NHMaster3015]

Kid tax, great idea. Then only the rich can afford to have them. More inbred droolers, super. Problem is, not enough people die fast enough anymore. Maybe we need a plague, or a better war. No, how about an open season on the terminally stupid, or lawyers, bankers, real estate agents, stock brokers, politicians.? Better yet, how about we do nothing at all (which is what we're best at) and let nature and time take care of it, because in the end, that's what will happen, like it or not.

[drtyhands]

if people want to go green the goverment needs to start taxing on the amount of kids you have. more kids more taxes. if people continue to multiply themselves six times over and there kids and there kids. do the math it doesnt matter how efficient we are. medicine keeps getting better and more people are living longer. we are running out of room. is it going to effect us probably not and probably not our 12 kids. but it will happen soon

Yep!!

[haycad]

call it propaganda if youd like its reality look at any species on this planet over population leads to a poor habitat that cant support that species which leads to an unhealthy species which leads to famine and death which leads to other species that rely on them to die also. other countries are already doing population control, do i think its going to happen here no, because of the people that think because were american that means were immune to poverity and disease

[Service Guy]

Better yet, how about we do nothing at all (which is what we're best at) and let nature and time take care of it, because in the end, that's what will happen, like it or not.

Thats the truth!
If we do get overpopulated or pollute the planet or both...we will either die out or at least the population will shrink just lik eit does with any species.
Nature always works things out one way or another.

[Birddoggiest]

you can have all the kids you want but make sure you leave a picture of a salmon to pass down to your great grandkids so they know what one looks like.
and big dog imagine all that land outside of el paso filled with track homes and apartment buildings. i was born and raised in the country there wasnt a house within a mile 3 years ago i helped plumb the 1500 house sub division where we used to play hide and seek. my graduating class had 97 kids last year there were over 400. i dont know about you i enjoy driving through the country and not seeing a house or a person for miles. i would like to keep it that way too. but if every person clones themselves over and over again where are they going to go?

We rely on growth. If you don't like it close the borders and stop all immagration. That will slow the growth dramatically and we all will feel it (I belive "leagle" immagration is necessary). We also had the most snow ever recorded in historty this year no thanks to Al Gore! and I bet it will get warmer in a month or so then keep getting warmer before it get cooler again.
This years fish forcast has the biggest salmon run in decads for Idaho. I am looking foward to taking one of my FOUR boys to catch some and enjoy the taste.

[AFM]

Seven billion plus, on earth who are we kidding just ourselves.

Tony

[NHMaster3015]

Mass forced sterilization. Kill off all inferior specimans. Heil Hitler.

What gives man the right to play God.?

[Masterplumb]

Mass forced sterilization. Kill off all inferior specimans. Heil Hitler.

What gives man the right to play God.?


It is that elitist attitude that they have, you know the "you are not intelligent enough to even understand" attitude. Where salmon and other wildlife takes precedent over human life.

[gear junkie]

Mass forced sterilization. Kill off all inferior specimans. Heil Hitler. Was this meant sarcastically?

What gives man the right to play God.?
Not sure if I get the drift of your thread and I don't want to misconstrue anything. Could you explain what you meant so there's no misunderstanding?

[NHMaster3015]

I'm just being sarcastic as usual. Every time I hear this "man is the evil scourge of the earth crap" it get's me upset. There's a fine and scary line between aknowledging a problem and acting on it. Throughout history there have been idiots, hell bent on "thinning the population" and it always leads to the tragic execution of thousands if not millions of innocent people. Are there too many people on earth.? I guess if you live in NY city you might think so. But if you live up here in Maine, it just does'nt seem to be a problem. For the good of man kind you can justify just about any insane act. Imagine a tax on children. A tax that out and out would punish all the poor and middle class people and perhaps deprive mankind of another Einstein. I don't know about the rest of you, but I see this kind of talk as dangerous to both my wallet and society. Imagine what it will do for the aboartion rate, and how about those that cannot pay the tax. Do you take the child away from them or put them in jail. Socialist, Communist Crap.

[haycad]

do you really think people can continue to have a bunch of children and this world can handle it? its not as big as you think. and unless you want to eat processed food for the rest of your life we kinda depend on salmon and other species to survive. so live in denial and continue to drive your trucks that get 4 miles to the gallon but bi@ch about gas prices. and dont bother recycleing its just propaganda its al gores way of trying to take your hard earned money.

[cpw]

do you really think people can continue to have a bunch of children and this world can handle it? its not as big as you think. and unless you want to eat processed food for the rest of your life we kinda depend on salmon and other species to survive. so live in denial and continue to drive your trucks that get 4 miles to the gallon but bi@ch about gas prices. and dont bother recycleing its just propaganda its al gores way of trying to take your hard earned money.
There is a big difference between recycling and beliving Al Gore's propaganda and psuedo-science. It is clear recycling is a win, it doesn't cost you anything and it reduces the cost that towns have to pay to get rid of trash. Recycling just plain makes economic sense. Al Gore profiting from selling carbon guilt-assuaging credits doesn't make any economic sense.

[ToUtahNow]

do you really think people can continue to have a bunch of children and this world can handle it? its not as big as you think. and unless you want to eat processed food for the rest of your life we kinda depend on salmon and other species to survive. so live in denial and continue to drive your trucks that get 4 miles to the gallon but bi@ch about gas prices. and dont bother recycleing its just propaganda its al gores way of trying to take your hard earned money.

I believe the old argument of zero population growth has little to do with the US. Consider of the 5,000,000 people which are added to our population each year 4,500,000 are foreign born legal and illegal aliens.

The World statistics show the average number of children per family in the US is 2, El Salvador is 3.2, Guatemala is 4.9, Honduras is 4.3, Mexico is 2.8 and Nicaragua is 4.4 . So because there is already a zero population growth in the US what we really need to do is stop immigration rather than taxing our citizens to make up for immigration.

Mark

[ToUtahNow]

One of the developements we are doing in Utah will hopefully be green construction for water heating, light and HVAC.

Mark

[haycad]

I believe the old argument of zero population growth has little to do with the US. Consider of the 5,000,000 people which are added to our population each year 4,500,000 are foreign born legal and illegal aliens.

The World statistics show the average number of children per family in the US is 2, El Salvador is 3.2, Guatemala is 4.9, Honduras is 4.3, Mexico is 2.8 and Nicaragua is 4.4 . So because there is already a zero population growth in the US what we really need to do is stop immigration rather than taxing our citizens to make up for immigration.

Mark
i completely agree that immigration needs to be handled

[SlimTim]

[quote=haycad;137053]do you really think people can continue to have a bunch of children and this world can handle it? its not as big as you think. quote]

Maybe, it's a little BIGGER than you think. And it's a BIG solar system.

I would much rather have a growth in population of a people who CARE about people and environment than to just sit back and be swallowed up by another culture which largely doesn't.

I would suggest that it's not over population that produces the squalor that people live in around the world. It's usually bad government (socialism, communism, fascism, sharia-ism and various other dictatorships-which, by the way, are the only ones which will DICTATE- how many children you may have) and screwy religions.

I would also suggest that it will be our capitalist, republic (as long as it remains so) society which can (and has) improve the lives and environment of people and countries the world over.

Yes, we could easily wipe out the salmon and any other species that we choose (including ourselves imho), but when we recognize a problem we take steps to fix it.

I would recommend baby steps.

[DUNBAR]

i tried creating a couple social security numbers just last night!

it wasn't pretty either~! :smile2:

she wouldn't eat my wonderful breakfast

if that tells ya anything :(

[saysflushable]

I have been taught this over population ,to much pollution ,global cooling then global warming crap through out my youth. Don't forget we were going to be out of gas by 2000 if we lasted that long because of the imminent nuclear holocaust. What a load of B.S. People have nothing better to do then scare kids. I guess when your goal is power (Al Gore). You will do anything.
By the way when you lived in the place where your closest neighbor was 3 miles away. what gave you the right to upset the pristine natural surroundings with your horrible human presence? Oh you want it all, no room to share.
Oh ya and as far as recycling, about 17 years ago when I drove a truck hauling garbage for waste management I saw loads of recycle trucks dumping there plastic and glass the same place I was dumping mine---- in the dump. Maybe things have changed who knows? 1 more thing you want to conserve turn the A.C off ,not up off . No air conditioning at home in the car or office. Then tell me how to live my life.
Freaks around here build huge homes on the west Michigan shore and dunes. Then have bumper stickers on there cars about saving the environment. They have there good life now the rest of us can do without. I don't care where you build just don't be hypocritical

[NHMaster3015]

I have been taught this over population ,to much pollution ,global cooling then global warming crap through out my youth. Don't forget we were going to be out of gas by 2000 if we lasted that long because of the imminent nuclear holocaust. What a load of B.S. People have nothing better to do then scare kids. I guess when your goal is power (Al Gore). You will do anything.
By the way when you lived in the place where your closest neighbor was 3 miles away. what gave you the right to upset the pristine natural surroundings with your horrible human presence? Oh you want it all, no room to share.
Oh ya and as far as recycling, about 17 years ago when I drove a truck hauling garbage for waste management I saw loads of recycle trucks dumping there plastic and glass the same place I was dumping mine---- in the dump. Maybe things have changed who knows? 1 more thing you want to conserve turn the A.C off ,not up off . No air conditioning at home in the car or office. Then tell me how to live my life.
Freaks around here build huge homes on the west Michigan shore and dunes. Then have bumper stickers on there cars about saving the environment. They have there good life now the rest of us can do without. I don't care where you build just don't be hypocritical


No things have not changed. In the town I live in we all were mandated that we had to re-cycle. Glass, plastic, paper, cardboard, metal ect. We were mandated because the fed will give the town a subsidy it we recycle. So anyway I live about a 1/2 mile from the Dump (sorry, recycling center for all you politicall correct types) I can't see the dump in the summer, but when the leaves come off the trees in winter I have a pretty good view of what goes on there. On tuesday mornings, around 11:00 am, a couple of big trucks from da da da Management come through the gates. Someone fires up the front end loader, and all the glass, plastic, paper, all but the metal, GO INTO THE SAME TRUCKS. From there they truck it off the the landfill. Wanna know why.? It's because it still costs more money to use recylced materials than to manufacture the stuff from scratch. Why? Because it costs more fuel and man hours to sort, clean, truck and re-manufacture the stuff. It's like the f'ing Prius. It costs more and uses more "carbon" to manufacture, than the damn thing will ever pay back to the environment. The best of the best in wind mills can only produce enough energy to power about 12 houses. Yep, a million dollar piece of equipment to power 12 houses. Not to mention the "carbon" used in the many manufacturing processes to make the wind mill in the first place. Oh and the reqular maintainence costs. All for 12 houses. Gee wiz people are really stupid. Next time you buy into something, do some recearch first.

Thank you flushable for the use of your quote.

[SlimTim]

[quote=NHMaster3015;137177]Gee wiz people are really stupid. Next time you buy into something, do some recearch first.quote]

I like your style. I think you should have the butler drive your Rolls around the block once a day just to p o Al Gore.

[Birddoggiest]

do you really think people can continue to have a bunch of children and this world can handle it? its not as big as you think. and unless you want to eat processed food for the rest of your life we kinda depend on salmon and other species to survive. so live in denial and continue to drive your trucks that get 4 miles to the gallon but bi@ch about gas prices. and dont bother recycleing its just propaganda its al gores way of trying to take your hard earned money.
The last statistic I saw I think it was that the US was less than 5 or 10% developed. I am a plumber who needs a vehical with crappy gas milage and have a right to gripe about gas prices. Drill cali, Florida. and Alaska for oil and we'll send trees in trade. Drill here and cut-off the midle east.