3" galvanized

[wrench spinner]

I have a customer with a 3" galvanized service coming into her house, maybe 250 feet long I think the pipe is pretty much plugged up because i maybe 5 psi before the pressure reducing valve, as soon as i enters the house. what do you guys think my best way to clean this may be what kind of head on what kind of snake i just want to punch a big enough hole in it to get 1 1/4" copper through because right after it comes into the house it drops down to 1" anyway? any thoughts?

[Herk]

If the inside of the pipe is that corroded, it will wear holes in the copper. Dig a new hole.

[Masterplumb]

I have a customer with a 3" galvanized service coming into her house, maybe 250 feet long I think the pipe is pretty much plugged up because i maybe 5 psi before the pressure reducing valve, as soon as i enters the house. what do you guys think my best way to clean this may be what kind of head on what kind of snake i just want to punch a big enough hole in it to get 1 1/4" copper through because right after it comes into the house it drops down to 1" anyway? any thoughts?


If this is residential and they're using 3" it may be due to the pressure available and the length of the run. I know in certain areas of Scarsdale we have to run 2" because of the available pressure. If there is 3" there now I would want to investigate why. I would probably replace with 2"k copper at a minimum.

[DuckButter]

If your guage is reading 5psi before the PRV, then your biggest problem isn't constriction.
Even if it's constricted, you should still have pressure...low water flow would result from constriction, not low pressure.
If your getting a low pressure reading...there's another problem altogether, possibly in conjunction with constriction.
Also..you sure it's a 3" main??
Did you typo, meaning 3/4"?

[plumberscrack]

1-1/4" wont do you much good at that distance

You need at least a 2" service and/or a booster pump?

Hoping to poke a hole in rusted up 3" galv with a snake is a pipe dream :D

Maybe a jetter would clean it?

[OkieBill]

Going to assume City / county water (non-well).

I don't think you will get anywhere unless you place a new service.. Your pressure drop with a run that long will be significant so 1 1/4" won't cut it without mechanical assistance.

Dig the hole and put in the new service is good advice:)

[wrench spinner]

it is city water master plumb its up in briarcliff, and yes it is 3" how much is 2" k going for these days? that way maybe i can figure the job tonite and give her a price in the morning?

[wrench spinner]

oh and i cant see a visible leak anywhere checked w/ geophones and just eyeballing no wet spots or soft spots in the ground

[PLUMBER RICK]

If your guage is reading 5psi before the PRV, then your biggest problem isn't constriction.
Even if it's constricted, you should still have pressure...low water flow would result from constriction, not low pressure.
If your getting a low pressure reading...there's another problem altogether, possibly in conjunction with constriction.
Also..you sure it's a 3" main??
Did you typo, meaning 3/4"?

i double duck that:duck:

shut off the main at the house and get a pressure reading/ static reading at the house elevation. also get a reading if possible at the meter/ lower elevation.

i assume the 5psi is not static, but residual.

how do they fight fires with only 5 psi at the main?

rick.

[wrench spinner]

i did that rick that's what im so confused about the neighbors have got plenty of pressure there must be a leak or a full blockage that is preventing us from attaining acceptable pressure. im going to have to just replace it!

[drtyhands]

i did that rick that's what im so confused about the neighbors have got plenty of pressure there must be a leak or a full blockage that is preventing us from attaining acceptable pressure. im going to have to just replace it!

Perfect...
That line was done serving it's purpose long ago.

Just out of curiosity...What is the pressure before the PRV.How fast does it drop when you shut off city supply.Wonder what they have been paying for water.

[PLUMBER RICK]

i have seen bad water meters that drop off in volume. but pressure is pressure. 1/4'' or a 3'' line has the same static pressure.

so the problem can't be static.

what is the pressure when nothing is running?

what size water meter do you have?

are you 100% sure the meter is 100% open?

how long has this been going on for?

just started or has it been getting worse?

does the meter show any flow when the water is off at the house?

something just doesn't sound right:scratchhead:

please answer these questions as nothing really makes sense.

rick.

[wrench spinner]

ok from the beginning i got a complaint of no water pressure i initially thought bad prv i didnt have on in the truck and the s.h. was closed so i took the screen out of it and then turned water back on. still no water pressure so i took the prv out (the meter is after the prv, nothing but pipe betwen the prv and street) and put a pressure guage on and got 5 psi. i took the pressure guage off and the water just kind of glugged out of the line. this problem has only been present 2 days. i went down to the street and checked the curb box, the valve was opened all the way. the neighbor has good water pressure so the problem must be between the curb box and the prv. the only thing i figured since it was galv. it was plugged up inside and possible had some pinholes. so i figured id replace the line. homeowner had hoped due to her gardens under the line that i would not have to dig them up so i initially thought i could pig the line with a snake or something similiar then pull an new copper or poly line though the existing 3" galv. i just dont want to put this line in and then tell the customer that that wasnt the problem, i figure about $2500 to run a new line and if that doesnt solve it i am going to have pissed off customer!

[PLUMBER RICK]

wrench, what is the pressure at the neighbors house?

what is the head loss from the valve box up to the house. what is the elevation from the street box to the house? what's the pressure at the street?

a drop down test will determine any leak.

the valve box to the house (250') is not metered? so a leak can run and never register?

250' for $2500 is not feasible. unless you can slip line a 2'' into the 3'' is still very cheap. the 3'' was installed for a reason.

rick.

[drtyhands]

ok from the beginning i got a complaint of no water pressure i initially thought bad prv i didnt have on in the truck and the s.h. was closed so i took the screen out of it and then turned water back on. still no water pressure so i took the prv out (the meter is after the prv, nothing but pipe betwen the prv and street) and put a pressure guage on and got 5 psi. i took the pressure guage off and the water just kind of glugged out of the line. this problem has only been present 2 days. i went down to the street and checked the curb box, the valve was opened all the way. the neighbor has good water pressure so the problem must be between the curb box and the prv. the only thing i figured since it was galv. it was plugged up inside and possible had some pinholes. so i figured id replace the line. homeowner had hoped due to her gardens under the line that i would not have to dig them up so i initially thought i could pig the line with a snake or something similiar then pull an new copper or poly line though the existing 3" galv. i just dont want to put this line in and then tell the customer that that wasnt the problem, i figure about $2500 to run a new line and if that doesnt solve it i am going to have pissed off customer!

Interesting diagnostics and pricing.At 250' I don't think there is much I could do for $2500.Certainly nothing having to do with copper.

[wrench spinner]

$2500 was for the excavation and labor, the pipe itself I priced out this morning at $5,000 if i use 2" copper, if i up it to 3" and use ductile iron the price for the material may drop and the labor would go up! I really dont know what else to check or if i should just have someone come in and try to jet it to buy some time? any thoughts?

[BHD]

I do not know what your wanting to clean out of the pipe mineral build up or rust, (hard to believe it could rust enough to block the pipe),

I did see a section of pipe that was said to have come out of south dakota once, that was full of mineral deposits and the hole left in the center was about 1/4" in diameter,

but any way if it is mineral build up or rust, I would think replacement of the pipe would be best, this may work for a cutter, to open it up, (I do not see any thing like it in the Ridgid line up if there is I am not aware of it).

ROTHENBERGER shows a carbide tipped drill head for talking out cement, in drains, http://www.rothenberger-usa.com/fileadmin/fm_usa/Product_Catalog/section_7-FINAL-lo-res.pdf
on page 18 of the pdf or 69 of the catalog,

Carbide-tipped Cutters
Blades are carbide tipped:
Clears hardest obstructions and encrustations such as
cement deposits, urine and water scale
Blades are securely mounted to tool body:
Long service life
Recommended for use with S or SMK cables
Coupling ..................dia......... Working range .......................lb..................No
5/8" ........................1" ...............1-3/8" - 2" ......................0.2 .............72191
7/8"...................... ..1-3/16"........ 2"- 3" .............................0.2 .............72291
1-1/4" .....................1-3/4" ..........2-3/8" - 4" ......................0.6. ............72392


Note: I have never used one, so I can not give any first hand report to its ability.

[APHCO]

As others have said, someting doesn't sound right.

Pressure is pressure and it should build up, over time to be the same as what the neighbor has. It doesn't matter what size the opening is, the pressure should be there.

I have found rocks in large water lines that were flushed from upstream due to watermain breaks or construction on new mains. Could the inlet to the curb stop be obstructed? What about the 3" line, there could be stones in there that are being held in place by the corrosion. That would still only explain the volume issue not the pressure!!

Probably the best thing to do is to replace the line with a properly sized copper line. The gardens will grow back. I would also have the city replace the curb stop at the same time or even better retap the main. Of course all of this is expensive but none of this is your fault. You are only trying to solve the customer's problem

Trying to route out the 3" is only going to cause more problems.

Like the other responses, I still don't understand the pressure problem. Did you check WP for the neighbors on both sides of this house or only one?? Call the City Water Dept and ask how much pressure you should expect on that street. Maybe they could measure it at the hydrant upstream and the one downstream from the house. If there is a differential then it would indicate a problem in the main, not at your customer's house. But still the same question, where is the pressure?

:happydance: Ignore most of the above.Really the only explanation for the pressure problem is many small leaks in the line from the street to the house. Get rid of the old line!

[OkieBill]

Did I read that right that the PRV was before the meter? I have never seen that before... Does that make it the city or counties responsibility?


Any chance that some porton of the line has been crushed?

How long are you leaving the pressure gauge on? ( Will pressure eventually match neighbors house if you left it on for a few hours?) This would indicate a crush or major obstruction. If you have any flow the pressure will eventually equalize to system pressure.

What did the inside of the line look like when you removed prv? I have seen them look really bad but still flow well.

My bet is on a crushed line or an obstruction in a downstream valve or device.

If you are going to replace the line go to your down stream connection point and tap it to verify pressure may also dig every 25 feet and tap to find area of problem.

just an idea:-)

[wrench spinner]

ok well for a f/u i replaced the line today it was a long day but i got it done and everyone is happy. I ran a new 2" copper service (man it really sucks to bury $5000) from the street to the house i took a couple samples of the pipe i will post them within the next few days
(my girlfriend is out of town and her comp has the card reader). the pipe was plugged solid almost in sections so that not enough volume was getting to the house it would build up pressure after about 2 hours but then as soon as you open a faucet it was gone! but man that 3" was choked down to less than half in places. The reason that the 3" was there to begin with was that the building was sprinklered at one time, i spoke with their old plumber who had since retired and he told me there house used to be a dorm for Pace university! the splinkler system had been cut out when the house was remodeled so there was really no evidence of it. anyway thank you all for your help i really appreciate the support and advice i get from you guys!

[drtyhands]

Man,27 2" couplings and three 90's and a whole lot of $$$ in copper.The only thing funner is silver soldering it for under hardscape.Good day for you Spinner:)

Feels good pounding out showpipe.:thumbup2:

Now that it doesn't leak what's your pressure?

[wrench spinner]

100 psi! and in westchester we arent allowed to solder underground joints they were all flared 4 rolls of 2" soft tubing a 3"x2" brass bushing, 1 2" flare x ips adapter and 3 flare unions = A LOT of work! i started digging at around 9:00 am and finished up around 6:30ish with the water back on. The customer was estatic that I was able to take care of everything myself (the excavation and plumbing) and that it only took one day. I just need to send someone back there on monday to rake and seed!

[drtyhands]

100 psi! and in westchester we arent allowed to solder underground joints they were all flared 4 rolls of 2" soft tubing a 3"x2" brass bushing, 1 2" flare x ips adapter and 3 flare unions = A LOT of work! i started digging at around 9:00 am and finished up around 6:30ish with the water back on. The customer was estatic that I was able to take care of everything myself (the excavation and plumbing) and that it only took one day. I just need to send someone back there on monday to rake and seed!That is a lot of work for 1 guy.After hearing your qoute yesterday got me thinking I need to ask one of the concrete contractors I network with to see if I can put some time in on his excavator in an open field next to his and mines house.

It would be nice to see some pictures.

I don't know what an inspector would say if he saw unions in the yard.They aren't under concrete so I can't see why not.

How hard was it to get 2" soft?

[wrench spinner]

not hard up here most all the supply houses stock it. as far as the unions and such i checked. They do allow silver brazing but it is easier to use 2" AWWA compression unions. That is what they use on all the water services in this area now from the corp. stops to the curb stops and then from the curb stops to the house. Does anyone know why you cant use a regular soldered joint? other than just "because the code wont allow it"

[APHCO]

A properly installed flared joint has a much less chance of leaking than a soldered joint, probably becaues heating the pipe could actually weaken it or take the temper out of it. It is commonly accepted that a flair joint is the "best" joint for copper to copper and since any small leaks would not be seen underground you want to use the best possible. Above ground anything that leaks will usually be visible.

We did one once were the City Water guy had us run some solder onto the brass flare coupling nut so that he was extra certain there would be no leaks. Tough luck to anyone trying to unscrew it!