Put up or shut up

[gear junkie]

I've been seeing in the paper, TV, this forum, etc how things are going downhill from global warning, cheap illegal labor force, dependency on foreign material, welfare, etc. Point being, what are you doing as an individual about it? I'm not talking about lobbying at congress or raising a million dollars for greenpeace. I'm talking about simple things that if we all did, the compounding effect would be enormous.

-when I go to grainger and they tell me that there is an american made equivilant, I buy that product even though it cost more.
-I switched brands of gas away from shell when I recently found out(through this forum) how much oil they get from the middle east.
-I do recycle(not just copper either)
-I try to buy consumables in bulk packages so less waste is produced.
-I check my tire pressure reducing excess fuel and saves me money
There are countless other small thing we can do and these were just some examples

These things aren't strenuous or require a lot of effort, just a little careful forthought on my part. Doing these small things doesn't allow me to pass judgement on anyone and that's not what this thread is about. The same people that whine and complain about these things are often the same people that do nothing about it, they just sit and whine about it and expect the government to fix everything.

So which one are you? A talker or a doer?

[shup]

We recycle.

Use florescent lighting where possible. (turn them off when not in room)

Use a set-back thermostat.

Try and buy American when possible.

Drive the car at 60 if possible.

Keep the car tuned up.

Probably more but can't think right now.:)

shup

[garager]

Oh I'm a doer alright, no sense on even making a list, way to long. But our main problems are the third world countries. Dang, just take a look at all that smoke coming from those motorcycles, over there. Plus their factories, no regulations or hardly any regulations. No matter what, I will continue to play my small effort in our global problem.

We as Americans also need to curb our unnecessary consumption of fuel. My sister bought a scooter yesterday, me I want a golf cart to get around our small town. Magnetic train transportation would be cool, do away with airplanes other then to go oversea. We have had this conversation many of times and we will continue too. But there are those who just absolutely refuse to see that this is a problem.

I just cannot understand that, theres over whelming evidence that we're hurting our planet. If we don't change our ways, my grandchildren and great grandchildren will hate us and always blame us, for our greed and the consumption of our resources.

[smelly]

that tv program "Natioal geographics" did a special on a magtrain that runs between tokyo and its airport, explained from conception to installation , was pretty intersting,

:check:

[Frankiarmz]

Oh I'm a doer alright, no sense on even making a list, way to long. But our main problems are the third world countries. Dang, just take a look at all that smoke coming from those motorcycles, over there. Plus their factories, no regulations or hardly any regulations. No matter what, I will continue to play my small effort in our global problem.

We as Americans also need to curb our unnecessary consumption of fuel. My sister bought a scooter yesterday, me I want a golf cart to get around our small town. Magnetic train transportation would be cool, do away with airplanes other then to go oversea. We have had this conversation many of times and we will continue too. But there are those who just absolutely refuse to see that this is a problem.

I just cannot understand that, theres over whelming evidence that we're hurting our planet. If we don't change our ways, my grandchildren and great grandchildren will hate us and always blame us, for our greed and the consumption of our resources.

Garager, I'm with you and the others with doing what I can to conserve. It's kind of tough sometimes because many of us ended up living a distance from shopping, schools and other places we need to be. When I was a kid growing up in The Bronx, NY everything we needed was within walking distance. This thing with the gas happened so fast that we didn't get a fair chance to prepare. I've been doing all sorts of things to conserve and save money but it seems that I can't even break even. I cut my own hair, trim the dog, rarely eat out, watch whats on tv instead of going to the movies. Little things at best and then we keep getting hit with higher prices in the food stores and everywhere else. I'm thinking about a woodburning stove to offset my heating oil going from $2.39 to $4.00 a gallon, just don't know how much wood will be available? I'm glad folks are not just complaining but actually doing what they can to make the situation better. I do think we will need the government to step in and do something because our efforts just won't be enough. Gasoline around here has been going up a couple cents every day, there's some talk of suspending the tax on it but at this point that won't be enough either.

[res057]

that tv program "Natioal geographics" did a special on a magtrain that runs between tokyo and its airport, explained from conception to installation , was pretty intersting,

:check:

I saw that, too. Very cool. When I was in Japan last fall, I was able to experience their rail system first hand. Very efficiently run. Used heavily.
Another thing that impressed me is their recycling efforts. Almost everything is presorted, and put in individual bags and placed in the same collection area and the guys picking it up put it in the appropriate place.
I was also amazed at the amount of people riding bicycles. I guess a lot of it is self-defense. Having so many people in such a small area would make you a little more aware.
We could learn a lot. I did.
The biggest problem is everyone wants a cleaner environment, a better economy, better over-all health, etc, but not many want to pay the price. It's just like food; eating healthy costs more up front, but is less expensive in the long run.

[cpw]

I'm thinking about a woodburning stove to offset my heating oil going from $2.39 to $4.00 a gallon, just don't know how much wood will be available?
I got lucky this year in that I could play Robison against Burke Heat pretty well. Burke offered me a cap of $3.899 this year, but Robison would do $3.299 and I got Burke to match it. Last year I had a cap of $2.69 with Burke, but the average/gallon cost I paid was less than $2.45. At least with heating oil there is a choice about the company you buy from each year. I wouldn't go with the smaller companies, because I trust that Burke will show up at 5AM on Christmas if I have no heat, but a smaller company might not. I haven't tested that, but I have tested 5AM and the day after Thanksgiving. :) With natural gas, you can't really shop around.

[Frankiarmz]

I got lucky this year in that I could play Robison against Burke Heat pretty well. Burke offered me a cap of $3.899 this year, but Robison would do $3.299 and I got Burke to match it. Last year I had a cap of $2.69 with Burke, but the average/gallon cost I paid was less than $2.45. At least with heating oil there is a choice about the company you buy from each year. I wouldn't go with the smaller companies, because I trust that Burke will show up at 5AM on Christmas if I have no heat, but a smaller company might not. I haven't tested that, but I have tested 5AM and the day after Thanksgiving. :) With natural gas, you can't really shop around.

Always smart to be an educated consumer and compare prices. Like many other folks the jump in price will just be too much for me to absorb when added to all the other increases. I just don't know where to cut back anymore? Really not looking forward to the cold, old bones need more than wearing more clothes to keep warm.

[CWSmith]

We've been "frugal" for years. I choose to live very near work, so I could walk instead of drive. Over the past 30 years, my average driving is a bit less than 5,000 miles a year.

When it comes to automobiles, I'm frugal there too.... bought my first brand new car in 1965 and only recently (last Sept) bought my 6th vehicle for general transportation. I do own a 7th, for fun... a 1995 Miata. It has less than 34,000 miles on it, to date. The Miata is the only motorized entertainment we own... no motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, or off road vehicles. I walk, hike, and used to cross-country ski and canoe, but never had much interest in adding "power" to get out into the back country.

Electrical consumption is minimal. Typical night we have two 60 watt bulbs and two florescents going. High efficiency furnace and no air conditioning. The future home has central air (there when we bought it), but we don't intend to use it unless we're entertaining on a hot day. The house is very well insulated and we're installing high efficiency windows as the budget allows. I am planning on adding a small A/C unit to a smaller family room.

My computer is probably the biggest power consumer, although "energy-star" efficient, I could do better I suppose. I recently purchased a lap-top that seems to be quite a bit more energy efficient. Both our televisions are small, low wattage units. My Ham Radio equipment is mostly running on low power, but that will get converted to solar power some time within the next year. We're also planning for a solar power system to supplement the house next year. Also, all of our battery-required stuff runs on rechargeables, with the one exception being the programable thermostat. It requires full 1.5 volt cells, unfortunately.

Garbage generation is one can per week. We recycle everything possible. We don't use paper towels, dishes, or cups and try to minimize throw-away or disposables as much as possible. Also, we pretty much have found magazine subscriptions a terrible waste. While we both enjoy reading, it got to be a major disposal situation and in many cases, I found myself keeping certain magazines that I just never found time to read. Going through that again too... with a couple of woodworking magazines. (But I suppose we all have our weak points.) We do have a fairly-sized library though, but books are keepers!

So as consumers, we're very much on the low end, as I believe in keeping what I have for as long as possible, doing whatever repairs I can... in other words, use it up, before we get rid of it. Even then, I canabalize what I can for future projects. As far as buying "Made in the USA"... that's one heckuva challenge, especially when most of the good ol' U.S. companies insist on scuttling they're employees in order to make higher profits from off-shore investments.

CWS

[Frankiarmz]

We've been "frugal" for years. I choose to live very near work, so I could walk instead of drive. Over the past 30 years, my average driving is a bit less than 5,000 miles a year.

When it comes to automobiles, I'm frugal there too.... bought my first brand new car in 1965 and only recently (last Sept) bought my 6th vehicle for general transportation. I do own a 7th, for fun... a 1995 Miata. It has less than 34,000 miles on it, to date. The Miata is the only motorized entertainment we own... no motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, or off road vehicles. I walk, hike, and used to cross-country ski and canoe, but never had much interest in adding "power" to get out into the back country.

Electrical consumption is minimal. Typical night we have two 60 watt bulbs and two florescents going. High efficiency furnace and no air conditioning. The future home has central air (there when we bought it), but we don't intend to use it unless we're entertaining on a hot day. The house is very well insulated and we're installing high efficiency windows as the budget allows. I am planning on adding a small A/C unit to a smaller family room.

My computer is probably the biggest power consumer, although "energy-star" efficient, I could do better I suppose. I recently purchased a lap-top that seems to be quite a bit more energy efficient. Both our televisions are small, low wattage units. My Ham Radio equipment is mostly running on low power, but that will get converted to solar power some time within the next year. We're also planning for a solar power system to supplement the house next year. Also, all of our battery-required stuff runs on rechargeables, with the one exception being the programable thermostat. It requires full 1.5 volt cells, unfortunately.

Garbage generation is one can per week. We recycle everything possible. We don't use paper towels, dishes, or cups and try to minimize throw-away or disposables as much as possible. Also, we pretty much have found magazine subscriptions a terrible waste. While we both enjoy reading, it got to be a major disposal situation and in many cases, I found myself keeping certain magazines that I just never found time to read. Going through that again too... with a couple of woodworking magazines. (But I suppose we all have our weak points.) We do have a fairly-sized library though, but books are keepers!

So as consumers, we're very much on the low end, as I believe in keeping what I have for as long as possible, doing whatever repairs I can... in other words, use it up, before we get rid of it. Even then, I canabalize what I can for future projects. As far as buying "Made in the USA"... that's one heckuva challenge, especially when most of the good ol' U.S. companies insist on scuttling they're employees in order to make higher profits from off-shore investments.

CWS

Gosh, you do have quite a conservative lifestyle, unfortunately there is no easy or quick fix for those who need to commute. The transiton to such a life will be very difficult for those forced by their financial situation. There are also many folks who are both young and old suffering from various medical conditions who need more controlled environments and are not just being spoiled to be comfortable. I still think part of the solution lies with our lawmakers. Give us a timeline and some help in transitioning to high mile per gallon vehicles, maybe some kind of rebates or tax breaks to switch to wind and or solar power. You are a rarity and it's going to take some doing for the rest of us to join you.

[VASandy]

Now that warmer weather is here, we can get back to local foods. I go to the farmer's market each week and get the meat, veggies, etc for our meals. It's a bit more for the locally grown smaller producer, but it saves in the long run as there's far less hydrocarbon transport cost. Also, the meats are generally better with less to no additives like antibiotics. When purchasing goods such as sandpaper, finishes, etc I prefer to use the local (within 5 miles) hardware store rather than drive the 30 miles to the big-box stores. While the material is still shipped in, at least I'm not burning a bunch of fuel to finish the last leg of the process! I still have to go to the big box to get some things, since our town stores don't stock some things. I have, however, cut down my driving immensely by shopping local first.

I live in a very small town, so the stores aren't interested in coming here (yay!). The downside is there are some things that just aren't available. In my business, in order to replace memory, hard drives, CPU, etc, I have to order and get delivery. Even in this, I try to do whatever I can to minimize deliveries. I'll keep a running list of required items and make purchases only when there's a good number of things (every couple months or so), or if there's an immediate requirement. A lot of software I get via download vs having product in a box. Save packaging, save delivery and save me having to get rid of packaging!

We recycle as much as possible. Some items I'll save to recycle myself. Things like metal blades and such I'll recycle into small scrapers for beading and other details. I even use the little metal pieces that hold up hanging folders for these. We use CF bulbs wherever possible. We turn off lights if not necessary. We're going to install a cistern type water-catchment system this year to water plants and lawn. This will save us probably $300 on our water bill over the summer.

Next is to start investigating changing my diesel truck over to a sustainable fuel. I personally want to use switch grass or some other NON-FOOD fuel source. For the time being, I may just use cooking oil from the local Tastee Freeze. I just don't want to use corn as a fuel. Call me silly, but using a food as a fuel makes no sense to me. If we tie our fuel into a food source, the world may well go hungry.

OK...enough of my rant!! Sorry about that. ;)

[CWSmith]

Frankiearmz,

I suppose we are a bit of a raritry. I always joke that my Momma forewarned me that I would never be rich! But actually my wife and I just got into being conservative at a very early time. As they used to say, we're not much with "keeping up with the Jones", or for living "for things". I've insisted since the first day of marriage (back in 67) that we MUST live on my salary. I am a bit "Victorian" and Patty has been a "stay at home Mom", not working since our son was born in 1969. As a technical illustrator/writer, my income has been quite modest too (I'm only a high school graduate). The lack of a college degree has subjected us to a couple of layoff periods, sometimes rather long (3 ears at one point).

But that said, we've made out okay and have never had to request assistance. We live in a somewhat upscale neighborhood, although in a small house (1400 sq ft). Our son was always the first to get the newest things, like the computer, stereo, CD system, etc. In fact, we were "computerized" and on the internet in 1978. (Thanks to his interest in such things, I found myself freelance writing and handling data two years before IBM "invented" their first PC.) Between scholarships and savings, we were also able to send him to Cornell University, even though I was in that layoff period at the time. Most importantly he didn't have to start his life with any college loans to be paid off. Finally, when I lost my job after 30 years, I just "retired" at 59.

(Rant ON: Job got "off-shored"... Thank you Mr. Bush; and of course my big pension of $320 a month for 30 years of service, helps me pay for my retiree health insurance... to that I can thank Mr. Reagan, who allowed the company to reformulate their pension plan....Sorry, rant OFF.)

In spite of it all, one learns to be prepared. So the best part about living modestly is that when the world goes to sh** on you, there isn't much adjusting that you have to do... and there isn't really much you end up missing either. :)

CWS

[BHD]

VASandy Next is to start investigating changing my diesel truck over to a sustainable fuel. I personally want to use switch grass or some other NON-FOOD fuel source. For the time being, I may just use cooking oil from the local Tastee Freeze. I just don't want to use corn as a fuel. Call me silly, but using a food as a fuel makes no sense to me. If we tie our fuel into a food source, the world may well go hungry.

and bio diesel is not from a food source?
CORN OIL, SOY OIL, SUNFLOWER OIL, and if it is from another oil plant then that plant is using ground that would have normally been farmed for food, the same with switch grass, if it is planted it will be on "FARM GROUND",

and we use corn for all kinds of industrial uses any how, is that wrong?

It is a commodity jsut like oil or wood or any thing else, is, but you can eat it if so desired,
untill the last year, corn (food) was sold so cheap that it was cheaper to burn it in a wood type stove rather than feed it to cattle, or eat it does that make sense either?

and for the most part people do not eat "yellow field corn". there are other type of corn that is usually use for human uses, and they are not not used in the production of ethanol unless there unfit for human or animal use.

MORE than likely if you use a "renewable" liquid fuel source, it will either be a "FOOD" product or grown in competition on farm ground, that was once used for FOOD PRODUCTION.

[Service Guy]

Corn or whatever grain is RENEWABLE...duh. It would be a great fuel source, VAsandy. The world WILL NOT go hungry from using corn as a fuel.

[BHD]

When it comes to ethanol production, the best part of the corn plant is still used as animal feed, the Protein part, the starch is converted into the sugars and then into alcohol, which is either pressed out or by centrifugal force the liquid is removed and the left over distiller's grains are used for animal feeds, and normally the "part lost" the starch can easily be made up in the animals rations by low quality fodders and hays, (they are now bailing the corn fields for the stocks to use as feed (it is ground and the distillers grains are mixed in), I have understood in some of the larger plants even the corn oil removed in the process.

yes it may have some impact on meat production in the country, but even if the feed lot has to pay more or change rations to feed the animals out, it does not effect the price of beef in the store, (if you know any thing about the farm economy) as the packer dictates what price he will pay and what price the consumer will pay for the product when he is done with it, the price is not set by the farmer or rancher, it is set by the packer and the processor. and the speculators. the same is for grains. (yes some truck farming and farmer markets they my set there price but the larger farmer that sells commercial is told what he will receive not what it cost to produce it with a small profit.


What I am simply trying to point out you get the ethanol from corn and the co product is a high protein feed product, that is still food and usable for the feeding of cattle and other fed critters, so yes some of the volume is used up but the protein is not, and is still sold and used as feed, jsut as the whole corn kernel was used before. but other lower cost product is added to it.

Yes demand for corn is up do to ethanol, production,
but the drop of the dollars value probably has as much or more to do with the rise of the price than the production of ethanol.

[ToUtahNow]

Corn or whatever grain is RENEWABLE...duh. It would be a great fuel source, VAsandy. The world WILL NOT go hungry from using corn as a fuel.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. My understanding is the prices have already gone up considerably for foods using corn due to diversion to fuel. You and I may not have a hard time with the price increase but some say the third world countries which rely on corn as a cheap source of food are already suffering.

On another note I heard the entire fleet of trucks for the company which makes "Keetle Chips" now uses the old oil from making the chips as their fuel. It's not a big deal but if I buy chips from now on it will be from them to show support.

Mark

[Service Guy]

Well at least we can always GROW more....unlike oil.

[Woussko]

You can make ethyl alcohol out of fermented garbage. Rather than putting so much into the sewage systems, it could be rotted. The problem is how to purify it at a reasonable cost. I have a gut feeling that ethyl (grain) alcohol might work better as a large scale heating fuel as you wouldn't need it as cleaned up as when used in part as engine fuel. In addition, I want to see mass use of sewer gas other than to see huge fires burn, but all the heat goes to waste. Why not make steam?

[Frankiarmz]

You can make ethyl alcohol out of fermented garbage. Rather than putting so much into the sewage systems, it could be rotted. The problem is how to purify it at a reasonable cost. I have a gut feeling that ethyl (grain) alcohol might work better as a large scale heating fuel as you wouldn't need it as cleaned up as when used in part as engine fuel. In addition, I want to see mass use of sewer gas other than to see huge fires burn, but all the heat goes to waste. Why not make steam?

All good ideas but we need immediate and large scale solutions. I think the most reasonable answer right now would be to demand that iraq give us a break on the oil in exchange for the money and lives we've given to stabilize and build their country. Next we have to impliment a plan to transition away from traditional oil energies with timelines and incentives. We could probably build a pretty good industry of solar and wind alternatives and employ enough people to change our economy. Here we are throwing ideas around and sharing good intentions, but I don't get the feeling that our legislators are doing the same. :shrug:

[ToUtahNow]

My two younger brothers and my son-in-law all work for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power as Steam Plant Operators. Their plant as a system which burns reclaimed methane gas from a local landfill. While the concept sounds great the fuel is so dirty it destroys the equipment. Now they have to blend it with 99% natural gas and 1% reclaimed Methane.

Mark

[BHD]

what ever one comes up with the process has to be economical or cheaper than the current processes that are the standard,

I have no problem with the switch grass and crop residue idea for making alcohol blended fuels, but currently there is not a economical process to do it, when it comes of "age" and if it is cheaper than corn the plants will switch or the corn plants will shut down as fast as there currently being built,

SOLAR
the same as with wind or solar, look at the cost of a solar panel, a 50 watt panel is between $350 and $500 so it is very expensive, I think I figured out if I wanted to do solar for my farm it would be nearly $200,000 for the panels, OK say there a 30 year life, that still breaks down to 6,666 (no interest, no inverter no batteries jsut panels),
so just to buy the panels would be a pay out of $6,666 of expense a year, and if one put interest on it, at 7% my calculator say it would be 16,117.28 a year, just for panels, now my current electrical bill is about $1,800 a year. unless I was jsut wanting to spend money and BE "GREEN", is the only way to make it work,

WIND
lest do wind, depending on the system your looking at between $40,000 to $60,000 and that is for a grid tie unit and between 10 and 20 kw, now I live in an area where wind is feasible with about a 30 to 35% power factor, (meaning that if I put up a turbine I can expect it to produce full power about 30% of the time.

lest jsut take the $50,000 lay out for the turn key grid tie system, and a 30 year life, if I have the money it breaks down to , $1,666 a year, so it is feasible if I have the moneys and it has no serious repairs in it 30 year life, (in this scenario I come up with a $134 a year savings).

but if interest in added in @ 7%, it comes out to a $4029.32 a year one has to come up with.
so the it would cost me an additional $2229.32 or my electrical cost would more than double. using wind and having to pay interest on the moneys used. and that is no maintenance or rebuilds, and wind machines have a reputation of need some maintenance and some repairs, for the most part.

on solar many times scale of the system does little to reduce cost, but many times with wind larger scale will reduce costs per watt, considerable, as to beef some thing up usually cost less than more of the same.

so I do not think it will be long when one sees in appropriate areas, where wind and hopefully solar will compete with coal, power, currently the economics is not there, unless there are large governmental grants or rebates or tax incentives that mask the cost of the systems or mandates of governmental origin. or if the government institutes some type of carbon tax on coal, then the cost of power will go up again for every one. thus probly pushing wind into a break even proposal.

[NHMaster3015]

what ever one comes up with the process has to be economical or cheaper than the current processes that are the standard,

I have no problem with the switch grass and crop residue idea for making alcohol blended fuels, but currently there is not a economical process to do it, when it comes of "age" and if it is cheaper than corn the plants will switch or the corn plants will shut down as fast as there currently being built,

SOLAR
the same as with wind or solar, look at the cost of a solar panel, a 50 watt panel is between $350 and $500 so it is very expensive, I think I figured out if I wanted to do solar for my farm it would be nearly $200,000 for the panels, OK say there a 30 year life, that still breaks down to 6,666 (no interest, no inverter no batteries jsut panels),
so just to buy the panels would be a pay out of $6,666 of expense a year, and if one put interest on it, at 7% my calculator say it would be 16,117.28 a year, just for panels, now my current electrical bill is about $1,800 a year. unless I was jsut wanting to spend money and BE "GREEN", is the only way to make it work,

WIND
lest do wind, depending on the system your looking at between $40,000 to $60,000 and that is for a grid tie unit and between 10 and 20 kw, now I live in an area where wind is feasible with about a 30 to 35% power factor, (meaning that if I put up a turbine I can expect it to produce full power about 30% of the time.

lest jsut take the $50,000 lay out for the turn key grid tie system, and a 30 year life, if I have the money it breaks down to , $1,666 a year, so it is feasible if I have the moneys and it has no serious repairs in it 30 year life, (in this scenario I come up with a $134 a year savings).

but if interest in added in @ 7%, it comes out to a $4029.32 a year one has to come up with.
so the it would cost me an additional $2229.32 or my electrical cost would more than double. using wind and having to pay interest on the moneys used. and that is no maintenance or rebuilds, and wind machines have a reputation of need some maintenance and some repairs, for the most part.

on solar many times scale of the system does little to reduce cost, but many times with wind larger scale will reduce costs per watt, considerable, as to beef some thing up usually cost less than more of the same.

so I do not think it will be long when one sees in appropriate areas, where wind and hopefully solar will compete with coal, power, currently the economics is not there, unless there are large governmental grants or rebates or tax incentives that mask the cost of the systems or mandates of governmental origin. or if the government institutes some type of carbon tax on coal, then the cost of power will go up again for every one. thus probly pushing wind into a break even proposal.

Now here's a guy I like. He has concerns about the environment and waste, but instead of going off the deep end he took the time to DO THE RECEARCH, and he has shared the figures with us, the numbers just don't add up. Thanks BHD, very well done. As an aside. The best wind generators will produce enouth kw's to power about 12 homes and the cost of the generators is well over a million each.

I have noticed that most of us on this thread, though the environment is a bit of a concern, we are mostly doing things that keep the money in our wallets. Once again, common sense wins the day.

[Frankiarmz]

Now here's a guy I like. He has concerns about the environment and waste, but instead of going off the deep end he took the time to DO THE RECEARCH, and he has shared the figures with us, the numbers just don't add up. Thanks BHD, very well done. As an aside. The best wind generators will produce enouth kw's to power about 12 homes and the cost of the generators is well over a million each.

I have noticed that most of us on this thread, though the environment is a bit of a concern, we are mostly doing things that keep the money in our wallets. Once again, common sense wins the day.

No argument that this is a man who does the math, but I do have a couple things I'd like to point out. First of all my electric bill has gone up more than 30% in the last year and if we continue to see double digit increases every few years even solar energy might work out to be cheaper in the long run. The other thing on my mind is more of a "what if" scenerio, right now the cost of alternative energy such as solar and wind is not cheap so many of us will not go into debt even though we are facing ever rising electric and oil bills. I'm thinking what if there was a major investment by our government and big business (not big oil) to build more manufacturing plants to make these alternative energy products, and a move to employ thousands to install them? Wouldn't the price come down? I agree with President Bush that we are addicted to foreign oil, so why not have some government assistance to encourage the switch to some of these alternative energies? Heck, we spent almost if not a trillion dollars in iraq it's about time we invested in the USA! If congress could pass the homeland security act and bypass some laws, they could do the same to get windmills put in kennedy's backyard too. We have to take action now and do what we can to save our economy and country, we can't be stopped in the courts by folks who don't like the looks of a windmill. The clock is ticking.:smash:

[Rafael]

Solar has credits available, at least in california. It has come to the point that a solar system in a reasonably sunny area, with the credits, selling some power to the utility, and a 30 year loan will net you a small profit monthly(based on good credit for the loan), assuming you are an average power user. Energy hogs wil still have to pay.
The downside is that, in my opinion, the system adds zero realizable value to the home. I would not pay $20,000 more for a home that had a solar system, I dont think most people would. Which implies that this only makes sense if you plan on living in the home for the time it takes to pay off the loan. These systems need maintenance and repairs and do not last for more than 25 to 30 years without major replacement of components. Also, if you need your roof replaced, which you will, the panels need to be removed and reinstalled at substantial cost.

[res057]

An excellent book on this subject is; "Environmental Overkill-whatever happened to common sense" by Dixie Lee Ray. Lots of footnoted research. It talks a lot about how so many things are blown out of proportion by the media and what things we need to pay attention to. I was surprised at her take on this as I remember her being very liberal when she was the gov of Washington.
btw, this book can be very hard to find.

[threecreeks3]

Here in the PI and my home in Calif.Everything i flourescents except for the tool work lights.I drive a diesel pickup in the states an little 650cc car here.With both I try to limit the trips buying a lot at a time.Both places I try hard to limit monthly fuel expense to under 30 bucks in that I'm more successful here with the car tho gas costs much more here.
Veges here we mostly buy in the local wet market as they are cheaper and more locally produced.Meats we buy in town at the supermarket fish a combo of both.Here propane for the stove only in the states its heat and cooking and for hot water.The hot shower here is a 240 volt wall pack instant heater that great ,no other hot running water in the house here and thats the norm.A/C I near never use in the states here we use the 3/4 hp wall unit in the bedroom on is timer maybe 40 minutes for sleeping at night.Its a new unit that replaced 1 twice as big.
I'm still against using good crop lands to make fuel in general,sugar and some oil type plants seem to not effect the food supply much.Its been a great boon to farmers tho that finally can make a living off the land it that respect its good.
Here the price increases and shortages on food are much more obvious.Metro Manila area they are even guarding many rice trucks and the rice shortage is felt everywhere here.This week my mother in law came from the public market with only half a sack of rice.Only because thats all of that type the vendor she buys from had in stock.The big supermarkets are stocked to the hilt with rice selling it but the price is much higher then local markets,quality rice is harder to find Im told.The gov here say meat prices in general will go up 30% next week for many types.
The times are a changing rapidly.
Just a few minutes ago I stepped out back for a smoke..2 kids with rice type bags were sifting thru the burn pile outside the fence to pick up the nails and other metals to sell at the scrap shop...This is a middle income area too but the kids might be from down the road a bit in a squatters area or a lower income area.Last night The baby , housekeeper and I went up in the local market area..lots of beggars were working the street.
Sam

[GilBeQuick]

Global warming is a joke. Do any of you honestly think that any of us can affect the natural, NORMAL cycles of the planet Earth? We as a whole have only been taking accurate, steady readings and documentation of temperatures since the early 1900's. How in the world do you expect to compare temperatures and say the planet that is supposedly warming at an alarming rate of a planet that is supposedly billions of years old when we barely know of the last 100 years??

It's one of the biggest scams around people. Just another way to scare people and get more of their money.


------------

Personally I buy USA made when given the choice. I'm sick of cheap Chinese crap and just refuse to buy it if I can help it. Here, look at these videos: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=chinese+factory&search_type= this is what your money is funding.

Gas has gotten crazy expensive compared to what we're used to, but the USA is still cheaper than most of the world. If you look at how as is taxed you'll see that government makes way more off of gas than the oil companies do. I read something the other day and it was to the effect of over the past few years oil companies have made 600 billion off from sales, government has made over 1 TRILLION!!! Don't yell at the oil companies, yell at your elected officials sticking it to you every which way they can.

[NHMaster3015]

GilBeQuicl for President :D

[AFM]

GilbeQuick

Thank Christ someone can see through the bullsh*t, we paying $1.50 for a letre for petrol in Aus which would equal $6.00 a gal in the US, and you haven`t seen nothing yet with China and India buy up every barrel of oil they can get and pushing up the price.

Tony

[VASandy]

Global warming is a joke. Do any of you honestly think that any of us can affect the natural, NORMAL cycles of the planet Earth? We as a whole have only been taking accurate, steady readings and documentation of temperatures since the early 1900's. How in the world do you expect to compare temperatures and say the planet that is supposedly warming at an alarming rate of a planet that is supposedly billions of years old when we barely know of the last 100 years??

It's one of the biggest scams around people. Just another way to scare people and get more of their money.


I think it's important to note that the planet has heating and cooling cycles. We have been in a general warming trend for hundreds of years now. In general, the human species has prospered during a moderate climate period of the planet. These facts are found from research into past climatological data from ice cores in various places. The interesting part of it is that the ice cores from the different places reflect similar data.

However, the rate of this heating is now increasing at an alarming pace. It seems there is SOMETHING that is causing this rate to increase. It is true that we are dumping CO2 into the atmosphere in huge quantities. It is true that CO2 will cause temperatures to rise. These two facts are the ONLY things a real scientist will say when pinned down. The true cause/effect cycle of this huge planetary system is still largely outside of our understanding.

The important part is that the temperature is rising quickly. This is going to cause huge problems. Major ecosystems will begin to fail. Once this process begins, reigning things back in will be near impossible. Will we, the human species, figure out the changes and adapt? Chances are the species will survive. What we find for a planet on the other side, however, may be a very depleted system that is not capable of sustaining such diversity as we find today. This is all very speculative, however.

If you find one scientist that says definitively Humans are causing all the current climatological problems, you should question that persons qualifications. I am certainly no research scientist. I have been trained in Geology. I have read and researched much of these questions, and have found one truth. No one REALLY understands what's going on, but SOMETHING is definitely going on.

[NHMaster3015]

One very common misunderstanding is that co'2 levels cause the temperature to rise when if fact the temperature must rise before co'2 levels will.

Now if you will excuse me I have a pile of old tires to burn.;)

[Rafael]

If gas gets more expensive then we will not be able to afford all the crap china and india sends us, we will buy less, they will make less money and then they will not be able to buy gas, which will bring the price of gas down...It is a circle.

[Frankiarmz]

If gas gets more expensive then we will not be able to afford all the crap china and india sends us, we will buy less, they will make less money and then they will not be able to buy gas, which will bring the price of gas down...It is a circle.

I've been saying the same thing and it makes sense that anything that makes us less able to consume the world's goods will hurt them in the long run. I don't care if they are paying ten times what we do for gas, we are the ones driving to work and driving trucks to deliver all that junk to our stores to be purchased. The folks in india, china and mexico for example are not buying laptops and ipods, heck if we did not consume their illegal drugs they'd starve. Good thing our government looks the other way and has no border security to speak of!:speechless:

[michael stephen]

I've been seeing in the paper, TV, this forum, etc how things are going downhill from global warning, cheap illegal labor force, dependency on foreign material, welfare, etc. Point being, what are you doing as an individual about it? I'm not talking about lobbying at congress or raising a million dollars for greenpeace. I'm talking about simple things that if we all did, the compounding effect would be enormous.

-when I go to grainger and they tell me that there is an american made equivilant, I buy that product even though it cost more.
-I switched brands of gas away from shell when I recently found out(through this forum) how much oil they get from the middle east.
-I do recycle(not just copper either)
-I try to buy consumables in bulk packages so less waste is produced.
-I check my tire pressure reducing excess fuel and saves me money
There are countless other small thing we can do and these were just some examples

These things aren't strenuous or require a lot of effort, just a little careful forthought on my part. Doing these small things doesn't allow me to pass judgement on anyone and that's not what this thread is about. The same people that whine and complain about these things are often the same people that do nothing about it, they just sit and whine about it and expect the government to fix everything.

So which one are you? A talker or a doer?
been doing conservation for several years now.. am pretty sure am a doer..