He's an American ???

[garager]

And people of America wants to vote for this man, now this is pathetic. How in the world can he be an American citizen. After this one, I will never listen to what this man has to say, theres no reason whatsoever, for him to get this wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

[Woussko]

Daaaaaayyyymn

Woussko thinks he needs to quit sniffing bathtub brewski so much.:eek:

[drtyhands]

That's embarrassing.

He is not my choice for president.

Even though I can understand being so tired I can hardly remember my own name.

Homey needs a nap.

[westcoastplumber]

HAHAHA, securing the vote for McCain, one sentance at a time.

[Frankiarmz]

Sorry guys, I don't care if he either made a honest mistake or as you suggest he is really that stupid he beats hands down the failed policies of the Bush administration and the string of lies put forth by Clinton. John McCain has my every respect as a brave American but I have had enough of our brave troops being wounded and dying in iraq as their troops stand back and watch. I have had enough of our billions upon billions of dollars being spent in iraq while our country falls apart. Unfortunately I don't trust either party to do a dam thing to change our country for the better. Where are our secure borders? Who will fix the trade deficit? Anyone of them care to layout how we are going to get jobs back to build our economy from the smoke and mirrors it has become. We are in serious trouble and hard working folks are starting to decide wheter or not to buy gas, heating oil or food! It will take more than a few seconds on YouTube to make a difference for me. In my opinion we don't need a President, we need a think tank of educated no strings attached folks who can tell us exactly how to turn this mess around. These brilliant folks are out there but they are not at the helm. We as consumers should not be spending beyond our means , but our government is doing just that. Who will save us? Certainly not four more years of the same and the sad thing is that we don't have an alternative. The democrats and republicans play seesaw with the white house and the joke is on us. I'm not laughing anymore, I want the borders secured, shoot to kill, get rid of the illegals in our jails, start making consumer goods in the USA and let china and india figure out who else they can sell to. Open up the federal oil reserves and cripple all those blood sucking investors who are pumping up the price of oil. Is this really the most critical bit of newsfacing our future? That obama made a mistake? Really guys, the next time you fill up at the pump or get an oil delivery think of who is running our country and who is to blame in the corporate world, obama is the least of our problems!

[DUNBAR]

HAHAHA, securing the vote for McCain, one sentance at a time.




To say 57 states is one thing.....



To continue on, sealing the deal that he in fact believes there is more than 50 states by mentioning by names of non-state.....excluding alaska... is going to be the fodder it already is,

devastation that the next guy who wants to be president of united states, 50 states,

wants to control 57 states.



That video has over 200,000 views.....

oh my
lol!

[tinmack]

Ahhh....come on.............

You're not gonna vote for a guy because he messed up the number of states? There's probably guys in the South that have a different number too, 'cause in their minds the civil war is still on.....

Regardless of who wins/gets in,

Whether it's McCain/Hillary/Obama,

Ain't nuthin' gonna change.........

[westcoastplumber]

I do agree with your thoughts Frankie and I do want the same for our country. We need to do something, and we need to do it quickly.

I have a feeling that no matter who is in office, any of our thoughts are ever going to become reality without a complete governmental overhall.

[Aaron91]

If someone followed you around with a camera, and you made the same amount of speeches he does, you'd probably make 10x the mistakes he does.

He's running for president, he has alot on his mind, he made a honest mistake, lay off him.

If I had the time, I'd find all the stupid comments Bush has made.

[cpw]

And people of America wants to vote for this man, now this is pathetic. How in the world can he be an American citizen. After this one, I will never listen to what this man has to say, theres no reason whatsoever, for him to get this wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws
I was a big Ron Paul fan, and now am solidly behind McCain. At first I was hoping Obama would beat Hillary, because I would rather have him than her (I am from NY, and am absolutely disgusted she's won here twice). But now, I don't know.

The 57 states thing doesn't bother me one bit, he just misspoke, it could happen to any of us. What does bother me is his associations with Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers [unrepentant terrorist]. Also his wife saying that she's proud of this country for the first time in her life and that America is "mean". I know that what his friends and wife say isn't necesarily what he believes, but i kind of wonder based on the company he keeps.

[garager]

Its 60 states, he's been to 57, 1 more to go, and they wouldn't let him go to Hawaii and Alaska, thats 60. I have been a Democrat my entire voting life, until now, I moved over to the Republican side. Not because of this video, but because of just watching the Democratic party, making arses out of themselves.

I also, agree with a lot of McCain ideas. Yes, I too, would love to see our troops come home, enough is enough. But we cannot get all of our beliefs from one candidate. Franki, I do agree with everything you said. Your right, a few seconds on the Youtube isn't my decision maker either. Theres plenty more about either candidate in the Democratic party.

[Drain Medic]

I really cant stand that guy :soapbox:

[Frankiarmz]

Its 60 states, he's been to 57, 1 more to go, and they wouldn't let him go to Hawaii and Alaska, thats 60. I have been a Democrat my entire voting life, until now, I moved over to the Republican side. Not because of this video, but because of just watching the Democratic party, making arses out of themselves.

I also, agree with a lot of McCain ideas. Yes, I too, would love to see our troops come home, enough is enough. But we cannot get all of our beliefs from one candidate. Franki, I do agree with everything you said. Your right, a few seconds on the Youtube isn't my decision maker either. Theres plenty more about either candidate in the Democratic party.

Garager I respect you too much to argue over this, and unfortunately I don't think it will matter in the end and that's sad. We seem to be picking the lesser of two evils and still not getting what we want either way. At the end of the day we will still keep losing jobs to cheap third world labor and illegals, still have the biggest trade deficit in history and still be paying record prices for everything dependent on oil. I'm concerned when I pull up to the pump and I cringe when I get that heating oil bill and although I have enough fat to keep me going for quite a while I do worry about all those skinny folks at the supermarket.:D

[garager]

Franki, I to have utmost respect for you, and this is politics, theres always disagreements. Understand, I do believe in almost every thing you had to say in this matter. :cool:

[rick1643]

If someone followed you around with a camera, and you made the same amount of speeches he does, you'd probably make 10x the mistakes he does.

He's running for president, he has alot on his mind, he made a honest mistake, lay off him.

If I had the time, I'd find all the stupid comments Bush has made.

Nobody has that kind of time Aaron

[westcoastplumber]

Nobody has that kind of time Aaron



HAHAHAHAHAHA, that was funny!!!

[garager]

Ease up on him Aaron, I don't know about that. But this photo should be sufficient enough. He doesn't place his hand over his heart and partake in the National Anthem. Or is this just from being tired or a bogus picture....

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa136/garager62/anthem.jpg

[Pipestone Kid]

Ease up on him Aaron, I don't know about that. But this photo should be sufficient enough. He doesn't place his hand over his heart and partake in the National Anthem. Or is this just from being tired or a bogus picture....

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa136/garager62/anthem.jpg

I would put money on a bogus pic. What is holding the flag up?

[Masterplumb]

If someone followed you around with a camera, and you made the same amount of speeches he does, you'd probably make 10x the mistakes he does.

He's running for president, he has alot on his mind, he made a honest mistake, lay off him.

If I had the time, I'd find all the stupid comments Bush has made.


He is running for president and Im sure that he has alot on his mind but to forget how many states are in the union? C'mon dude? You can ask a guy who has been pounding boilermakers in a pub somewhere and I guarantee if he ever knew there was 50 states in the union he wouldnt forget even if he was s**tfaced.

Lay off him? When someone wants to be commander-in-chief you dont ease up on them, you press them to make sure they dont crumble under pressure. And it's the same weather there is a D or an R in front of their name.

[Masterplumb]

I was a big Ron Paul fan, and now am solidly behind McCain. At first I was hoping Obama would beat Hillary, because I would rather have him than her (I am from NY, and am absolutely disgusted she's won here twice). But now, I don't know.

The 57 states thing doesn't bother me one bit, he just misspoke, it could happen to any of us. What does bother me is his associations with Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers [unrepentant terrorist]. Also his wife saying that she's proud of this country for the first time in her life and that America is "mean". I know that what his friends and wife say isn't necesarily what he believes, but i kind of wonder based on the company he keeps.


cpw, can you read my mind?????:thumbup:

[garager]

I would put money on a bogus pic. What is holding the flag up?

Yes, its a bogus picture, I was just trying to mess with Aaron a little bit. So no matter what, I still would have said its bogus. :D :D :D

I like to monkey around from time to time, no harm.... :D

[gear junkie]

I would put money on a bogus pic. What is holding the flag up?
Hate to dissapoint you http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

[Masterplumb]

Yes, its a bogus picture, I was just trying to mess with Aaron a little bit. So no matter what, I still would have said its bogus. :D :D :D

I like to monkey around from time to time, no harm.... :D


Uh, Garager, I do believe that that is a real picture. Not only is it real, here is the video of it for your viewing pleasure. :bash:



http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Obama_doesnt_put_hand_over_heart_1022.html

[garager]

Hahahahahahahahaha My Snopes says false......:D

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp

[garager]

Video, looks real to me. Sooooo hard to tell whats real or not anymore in the world of internet.....:eek: :cool:

[HVAC HAWK]

well the mennonite religion does not go to war or display a flag ,my boss is one and i put 3 flags on my work truck when i heard about this :party-on:

[myakka]

Unfortunately, I don't think the picture is bogus. I'm unimpressed with the entire field of candidates.

[westcoastplumber]

That picture was on the news awhile ago, so it may very well be real, I think it was caught in real video, might wanna search more

[MrsSeatDown]

Is it any worse than Dan Quayle not being able to spell potato or current President Bush continually confusing a nucular family with a nuclear family?

I guess now we know that Obama writes his own speeches and his people don't proof read them for him.

[VASandy]

Don't be fooled. ANYONE running for president is a tool of the Oil & Gas industry, as well as the pharmaceutical industry, and probably a couple others to a lesser extent. I just don't think O'Bama is a person I can vote for. I don't like his attitude nor do I like his politics. He actually makes Hillary look good.

That being said, I still think I'll end up going for McCain. My politics are my opinions, obviously, so I don't think it's worth going over all the decision making reasons just to end up alienating other people here. However you vote, just vote. What I've read here is amazingly well-put. There's a lot of thought going on and it's good to see.

[ToUtahNow]

According to Hillary, Obama only thinks there is 48 States. Now that he has found 9 additional states (over the 48) perhaps Hillary can gain enough delegates to beat him.

Mark

[smelly]

well I am canadian and I know there are 50 states........

vote for me

:rolleyes:

[DuckButter]

Don't be fooled. ANYONE running for president is a tool of the Oil & Gas industry, as well as the pharmaceutical industry, and probably a couple others to a lesser extent. I just don't think O'Bama is a person I can vote for. I don't like his attitude nor do I like his politics. He actually makes Hillary look good.

That being said, I still think I'll end up going for McCain. My politics are my opinions, obviously, so I don't think it's worth going over all the decision making reasons just to end up alienating other people here. However you vote, just vote. What I've read here is amazingly well-put. There's a lot of thought going on and it's good to see.
I FULLY agree, McCain gives me some hope because of his history with the tobacco industry.

[smelly]

tabacco! the govrnment here is trying to phase it out since health care is paid by the state, I have stopped smokoing and I know my health is better for it.

[Robert58]

Totally agree with garager. How in the world can anyone vote for this man when he clearly has some issues with the American flag. Even if some do not agree with the war we still have men and women dying every day for this flag. Yes, I want them home also but Do Not dishonor our flag and this country. Oh yes, as one of you guys have stated we "good old boys" here in the South still do think there is a war going on. It is war to keep this country safe for our families. If this man cannot honor our flag then he simply does not deserve to hold the highest office in the free world. I came home from Nam 40 years ago to protest. That has stuck in my mind to this day. Now my nephew has come home from Iraq talking about just this issue with Obama. This man has no honor.

[NHMaster3015]

With the escalating price of oil, the declining value of the dollar and the economy rapidly sliding into the toilet, I can't imagine why anyone would want to be president. Because you can bet, sure as hell, whoever it is, is gonna get blamed for the whole mess within the first 6 months.
What a bunch of schmucks.

[DUNBAR]

smelly's avatar is scaring me.


he's looking at me like I've done wrong.

[NHMaster3015]

He's kind of got that G. Gordon Liddy thing going on.

[JimDon]

I'd bet that Smelly could be our president and do a heck of a lot better than any of the schmucks in office now or running for the job. All we need is somebody with some common sense and the understanding about what it means to be average. VOTE for Smelly!!!!! Yeah!!!
Jim Don

[VASandy]

Smelly would have to move to the US first. Some kind of constitutional thing where the President actually has to be an American citizen. Go figure....
He'd probably make a better Pres than any of the current crop of yakkobots. How about Woussko or one of the plumbers? Hell, at least they'd probably fix the White House up instead of letting it rot! ;) Woussko might let his dogs run inside...but we could fix the floors. :D

[ToUtahNow]

Smelly would have to move to the US first. Some kind of constitutional thing where the President actually has to be an American citizen. Go figure....
He'd probably make a better Pres than any of the current crop of yakkobots. How about Woussko or one of the plumbers? Hell, at least they'd probably fix the White House up instead of letting it rot! ;) Woussko might let his dogs run inside...but we could fix the floors. :D

Actually he needs to be native born as well so we will have to find a new scape goat.

Mark

[HVAC HAWK]

Smelly would have to move to the US first. Some kind of constitutional thing where the President actually has to be an American citizen.

i thought you have to be born in the usa thats why Arnold cant run

[res057]

Don't be fooled. ANYONE running for president is a tool of the Oil & Gas industry, as well as the pharmaceutical industry, and probably a couple others to a lesser extent. I just don't think O'Bama is a person I can vote for. I don't like his attitude nor do I like his politics. He actually makes Hillary look good.

That being said, I still think I'll end up going for McCain. My politics are my opinions, obviously, so I don't think it's worth going over all the decision making reasons just to end up alienating other people here. However you vote, just vote. What I've read here is amazingly well-put. There's a lot of thought going on and it's good to see.

The best political advice a person can give or receive.

[Frankiarmz]

The best political advice a person can give or receive.

Good post, and I agree that we should not avoid voting. I do think this is a very respectful Forum and although we always risk upsetting others when we voice our opinions this is a pretty safe place to do just that. I think the key is to do so in a respectful manner. There are folks here with family who have served or are serving our country and they know if myself or others say we want the war to end and the troops to come home, we are not in any way being disrespcetful of their sacrifice and service. You can give your thoughts, I'm open to hear what others think and maybe it will change my take on things. Great country where we can do so without fear, and real nice of Ridgid to give us this Forum. Thanks.

[smelly]

I agree to the above post,....
the right to vote is something other people have fought so that we could vote, so the lest we can do, is to do them honor by voting.
even when the cadidats are not all we would hope for.
:groucho:

[joe_d]

Obama is not a Patriot by any means, and this is just one more example to prove it. Failing to salute the flag during the National Anthem and removing his American Flag lapel pin are two others.

Certain things you cannot forget, no matter how tired you are. Try forgetting you anniversary or wife's birthday. Try forgetting your wife's name and calling her by another one. See if the "tired" excuses work there.

[Frankiarmz]

Obama is not a Patriot by any means, and this is just one more example to prove it. Failing to salute the flag during the National Anthem and removing his American Flag lapel pin are two others.

Certain things you cannot forget, no matter how tired you are. Try forgetting you anniversary or wife's birthday. Try forgetting your wife's name and calling her by another one. See if the "tired" excuses work there.

Joe, under the leadership of our very patriotic President and the rest of the patriotic scum in Washington and the patriotic business leaders who have sent our jobs to the third world look at what condition our beautiful country is in. You talk about being patriotic? The brave men and women who serve our country are patriotic not the politicians who insist they remain in iraq while the iraqis take a back seat to defending their own country! I make no excuses for obama, clinton or mccain, they have all made mistakes and in my opinon none of them will help save us from disaster. I think it is unpatriotic to charge four dollars for gas and heating oil, to charge so much for food that we have people who have to decide between driving and eating. Let's get out priorities straight, please. McCain will not secure our borders or stop spending billions in iraq. McCain will not stop our troops from dying or becoming disabled in iraq. Clinton is useless and obama is all talk. Sorry to rant but we are in serious trouble and being patriotic has nothing to do with changing any of it in my opinion.

[joe_d]

Sorry to rant but we are in serious trouble and being patriotic has nothing to do with changing any of it in my opinion.

We agree to disagree, I guess. I believe that a love of our country is an absolute requirement from our Presidents. One who is afraid to show this, or worse, has no patriotism, has no business leading our country.

[Frankiarmz]

We agree to disagree, I guess. I believe that a love of our country is an absolute requirement from our Presidents. One who is afraid to show this, or worse, has no patriotism, has no business leading our country.

Joe, you are a gentleman and I respect your good manners. I am just really upset with how to plan for the future and take care of my family. When I retired in 2000 oil and gas were around one dollar a gallon and this fall they may be around five. I won't be able to afford to heat my home and I won't go far on $5 a gallon gas. I did my job when I worked, but there have been a lot of folks asleep at the wheel in washington and still getting paid. I doubt obama is a terrorist or unpatriotic American but I can't prove it. I just want the insanity to stop, I want some honesty from our elected officials.

[Alphacowboy]

IF any election was ripe for a third canidate, this actually just might be it. I didnt think so before, but after McCrap's speech in Oregon this weekend, I really dont know if I could hold my nose and vote for him. He is going to bankrupt this country with his rediculas CO2 emissions requirements... 100% honesty here, he sounds like a complete loonatic!

Obama is a complete idiot, and how he has gotten his far without being stomped out is beyond me. And yes, it may just be a coincidence, but there is 57 states of the Muslim Religion..... :confused: But really, how can you be running for president of THE USA, and miss quote how many states there are.... I dont care how tired, drunk, young, old, blah blah blah you are, I dont know of any INTELLIGENT person that would say 57 instead of 50, PERIOD. His "friends" scare the living day lights out of me, seriously, frieghtening. I know for a fact that if I knew an ounce of the crap that his "friends" had done/said, I wouldnt be thier friends unless they had changed thier stance. I am ok with people admitting thier past was wrong, and repenting it, thats a whole different ball game than some one who is un-repentant.


Lastly, I honestly think we are screwed. McCain is nothing more than a left wing pro-lifer Democrat. The spending in Washington needs to STOP, and I mean down right lock up the brakes and put on the e-brake. If you think oil prices are bad, look at the tax colum on your pay check stub. :eek:

[cpw]

IF any election was ripe for a third canidate, this actually just might be it. I didnt think so before, but after McCrap's speech in Oregon this weekend, I really dont know if I could hold my nose and vote for him. He is going to bankrupt this country with his rediculas CO2 emissions requirements... 100% honesty here, he sounds like a complete loonatic!
I was really rooting for Ron Paul's candidacy in that I hope that it moves the debate within the republican party in the right direction (less government/taxes) and not more. I didn't expect him to win, but I at least want some shift in the debate.

Regarding the CO2 emissions and energy stuff Newt Gingrich actually sent out an interesting column today with his solutions to help reduce energy prices. I think most of these are pretty good ideas, especially about the one to incentive coastal legislatures to want drilling for the revenue.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26495


Some of these are gimmicky, but others I think could help. The part that I found most interesting is:

Change federal law to give all states with offshore oil and gas the same share of federal royalties Wyoming gets for land-based resources (48%). Today most states get zero royalties from offshore oil and gas development while states like Wyoming reap 48% of federal royalties for its land-based oil and gas. If Richmond, Tallahassee, and Sacramento suddenly had the potential to find billions of dollars a year in new revenues, their willingness to tolerate new oil and gas development with appropriate environmental safeguards might go up dramatically.
Change federal law to allow those states that want to permit exploration with appropriate safeguards to do so. Companies could be required to post bonds to pay for any environmental problems, and a share of the state and federal revenues from new offshore development could be set aside to finance biodiversity and national park projects.
Allow companies engaged in oil and gas exploration and development to write off their investments in one year by expensing all of it against their tax liabilities. This will lead to an explosion of new exploration and development.
Immediately renegotiate the clean coal (FutureGen) project for Illinois to get it built as rapidly as possible (see the chapter in Real Change for rapid contracting techniques with incentives that can reduce construction time from years to months). It is utterly irrational for the Department of Energy to postpone the most advanced clean coal project in America (LEARN MORE ABOUT DOE'S FAILURE ON FUTURE GEN (http://newt.org/EditNewt/NewtNewsandOpinionDB/tabid/102/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3410/Default.aspx#tl_cleancoal)).



Coal is America's most abundant and lowest-cost energy resource. If clean coal technologies can be demonstrated to produce power with virtually no carbon release, then coal becomes environmentally very acceptable. America IS the Saudi Arabia of coal. We simply must fund the most advanced experiment and get on with using our most abundant resource.
Congress should pass a series of tax-free prizes to accelerate innovation in developing new technologies for using coal. The result will be a better environment, more energy independence, and more energy at lower cost. Eliminate half the Department of Energy bureaucracy and turn the money into paying for prizes. America will get a much bigger, faster return on its investment.
Develop a tax credit for refitting existing coal plants. There are a lot of existing coal plants which are going to be around for a long time. The most efficient way to make them more environmentally acceptable is to create a tax credit for retrofitting them with new methods and new technologies.
Pass a streamlined regulatory regime and a favorable tax regime for building nuclear power plants.
Make the solar power and wind power tax credits permanent to create a large scale industry dedicated to domestically produced renewable fuel. A contractor recently told me about a solar project he had planned for the American southwest that is now being built in Spain because he distrusts the American Congress and is tired of it playing games with short-term tax credits. We have enormous opportunities in solar, wind, and other renewable fuels; and they can be developed with a stable tax policy.
Develop long distance transmission lines to move wind power from the Dakotas to Chicago. The potential is there for an enormous amount of electricity generation, but it is locked up geographically because the neighboring states have no reason to be helpful. The Dakotas can generate the power and Chicago can use the power, but the federal government may have to make the connection possible.
Allow the auto companies to use their tax credits for the cost of flex fuels cars, hybrids, and the development of hydrogen cars including necessary retooling for manufacturing. The American auto companies have billions in tax credits, but they have no profits to turn the tax credits into useful money. The federal government could make the tax credits refundable and therefore useful if they were spent on helping solve the energy problem. This would be a win-win strategy of much greater power than the fight over CAFE standards.

[Masterplumb]

Joe, under the leadership of our very patriotic President and the rest of the patriotic scum in Washington and the patriotic business leaders who have sent our jobs to the third world look at what condition our beautiful country is in. You talk about being patriotic? The brave men and women who serve our country are patriotic not the politicians who insist they remain in iraq while the iraqis take a back seat to defending their own country! I make no excuses for obama, clinton or mccain, they have all made mistakes and in my opinon none of them will help save us from disaster. I think it is unpatriotic to charge four dollars for gas and heating oil, to charge so much for food that we have people who have to decide between driving and eating. Let's get out priorities straight, please. McCain will not secure our borders or stop spending billions in iraq. McCain will not stop our troops from dying or becoming disabled in iraq. Clinton is useless and obama is all talk. Sorry to rant but we are in serious trouble and being patriotic has nothing to do with changing any of it in my opinion.

I agree Frankie, we need to get our priorities straight. For the people who cant afford healthcare, how many of them own flatscreen t.v.'s, cellphones, dvd players, $150 sneakers, jeans, and shirts but cant afford healthcare? Do they drink $4 coffee? I think these are the people with their priorities backwards. Are they deciding between these things too?

How come people want to bastardize(sp?) heathcare industry and oil industry for making huge profits but the people and things that bring no benefit to mankind like the Hollywood movie industry for example get a free pass? on monday morning in the newspapers all you hear about is how this movie broke box office records for the weekend and that movie shattered the all time gross record. Actors making $25 million? Baseball players making $36 million, $140 for a ticket to see the Yankees? I watch all their games and they sell out almost every one.

People want affordable healthcare, affordable gas and oil and I am one of them but are we hippocrits who pay $4 for a coffee,$16 for a movie ticket, $6 for a bucket of popcorn, $125 for a pair of nikes and so on. I want affordable golf, affordable plasma t.v.s, affordable Lambourghini's, and affordable vacations. Why cant our leaders provide me with this? Does this make sense?

[ToUtahNow]

I agree Frankie, we need to get our priorities straight. For the people who cant afford healthcare, how many of them own flatscreen t.v.'s, cellphones, dvd players, $150 sneakers, jeans, and shirts but cant afford healthcare? Do they drink $4 coffee? I think these are the people with their priorities backwards. Are they deciding between these things too?

How come people want to bastardize(sp?) heathcare industry and oil industry for making huge profits but the people and things that bring no benefit to mankind like the Hollywood movie industry for example get a free pass? on monday morning in the newspapers all you hear about is how this movie broke box office records for the weekend and that movie shattered the all time gross record. Actors making $25 million? Baseball players making $36 million, $140 for a ticket to see the Yankees? I watch all their games and they sell out almost every one.

People want affordable healthcare, affordable gas and oil and I am one of them but are we hippocrits who pay $4 for a coffee,$16 for a movie ticket, $6 for a bucket of popcorn, $125 for a pair of nikes and so on. I want affordable golf, affordable plasma t.v.s, affordable Lambourghini's, and affordable vacations. Why cant our leaders provide me with this? Does this make sense?

You make some valid points. I know a family who earns in the low but acceptable 6-figures. They have a large toy hauled full of motorcycles and quads yet they have no health care insurance. When their son need an operation they used a policy from a previous employer which was expired. When the $12,000 bill came they plead poverty. After spending the money to hire an attorney the bill was reduced to $1,800. Last year he had a $40,000 surgery and told the Hospital he didn't have money to pay them so tough luck. It will be interesting to see how he does with this one but his family is the reason we all pay more and for them it is a choice between toys and responsibility.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

"To succeed in politics, it is often necessary to rise above your principles."

Definition of Politics: "Poli" in latin meaning "many" and "tics" meaning "blood-sucking parasites."
:D

[Frankiarmz]

I agree Frankie, we need to get our priorities straight. For the people who cant afford healthcare, how many of them own flatscreen t.v.'s, cellphones, dvd players, $150 sneakers, jeans, and shirts but cant afford healthcare? Do they drink $4 coffee? I think these are the people with their priorities backwards. Are they deciding between these things too?

How come people want to bastardize(sp?) heathcare industry and oil industry for making huge profits but the people and things that bring no benefit to mankind like the Hollywood movie industry for example get a free pass? on monday morning in the newspapers all you hear about is how this movie broke box office records for the weekend and that movie shattered the all time gross record. Actors making $25 million? Baseball players making $36 million, $140 for a ticket to see the Yankees? I watch all their games and they sell out almost every one.

People want affordable healthcare, affordable gas and oil and I am one of them but are we hippocrits who pay $4 for a coffee,$16 for a movie ticket, $6 for a bucket of popcorn, $125 for a pair of nikes and so on. I want affordable golf, affordable plasma t.v.s, affordable Lambourghini's, and affordable vacations. Why cant our leaders provide me with this? Does this make sense?

I can only defend my own behavior in terms of spending. My cup of coffee costs twenty five cents! I use a coffee pod and make it at home. I borrow movies from the library or watch what is on cable (another stupid expense). I argue with my wife because she is still working and feels she is "entitled" to a vacation whereas I am entitled to what I can afford. I think actors and professional athletes are grossly over paid as well as the corporate leaders who do nothing to improve their business but accept multimillion dollar exit packages! All the people you speak of who run up credit card bills buying consumer electronics and other nonessentials are drones programmed by the advertising and entertainment industries who are very good at what they do. If smart Americans were less concerned with Janet Jackson's exposed breast and more concerned with the Trillion dollars spent in iraq and the other outrageous government and corporate waste, we might be on the road to healing our sick society. This summer the American zombies will watch baseball and do what we do best while gas, heating oil, food and everything else goes through the roof. Dopes like me will post their upset and good Americans will say I'm not patriotic. I just don't see a happy ending right now.

[Masterplumb]

I can only defend my own behavior in terms of spending. My cup of coffee costs twenty five cents! I use a coffee pod and make it at home. I borrow movies from the library or watch what is on cable (another stupid expense). I argue with my wife because she is still working and feels she is "entitled" to a vacation whereas I am entitled to what I can afford. I think actors and professional athletes are grossly over paid as well as the corporate leaders who do nothing to improve their business but accept multimillion dollar exit packages! All the people you speak of who run up credit card bills buying consumer electronics and other nonessentials are drones programmed by the advertising and entertainment industries who are very good at what they do. If smart Americans were less concerned with Janet Jackson's exposed breast and more concerned with the Trillion dollars spent in iraq and the other outrageous government and corporate waste, we might be on the road to healing our sick society. This summer the American zombies will watch baseball and do what we do best while gas, heating oil, food and everything else goes through the roof. Dopes like me will post their upset and good Americans will say I'm not patriotic. I just don't see a happy ending right now.

You seem like a nice and decent person, and I respect your views and agree with some, but you're not blaming advertisers for peoples misdirection of their priorities are you? Thats like blaming drug dealers for the junkies addictions. Things are put in our faces all the time, you have to prioritize and stay focused. Dont blame society for your problems, take responsibility for your own actions.

[cpw]

I can only defend my own behavior in terms of spending. My cup of coffee costs twenty five cents! I use a coffee pod and make it at home. I borrow movies from the library or watch what is on cable (another stupid expense). I argue with my wife because she is still working and feels she is "entitled" to a vacation whereas I am entitled to what I can afford. I think actors and professional athletes are grossly over paid as well as the corporate leaders who do nothing to improve their business but accept multimillion dollar exit packages! All the people you speak of who run up credit card bills buying consumer electronics and other nonessentials are drones programmed by the advertising and entertainment industries who are very good at what they do. If smart Americans were less concerned with Janet Jackson's exposed breast and more concerned with the Trillion dollars spent in iraq and the other outrageous government and corporate waste, we might be on the road to healing our sick society. This summer the American zombies will watch baseball and do what we do best while gas, heating oil, food and everything else goes through the roof. Dopes like me will post their upset and good Americans will say I'm not patriotic. I just don't see a happy ending right now.
I'll say that cable isn't really a stupid expense. As much as I ***** about my $90 cable/internet bill, it is really a good deal. For $1-2 a day you can veg out for an hour or two. Most other forms of entertainment do require more dollar input than watching something on TV. I think the only better deal around is AM radio, and I like that in the car (depending on who is on), but strongly prefer TV in the house.

[woodenstickers]

The fact that I'm a liberal hippy and buddies with Nancy Pelosi as has been ferreted out on this site already, but one place where I part ways with my Birkenstock wearing brethren is on uni health care. I do wish everybody could be covered, and I do wish the corrupt insurance system could be busted up, but I do not trust our government to make a clean go of it. They eff everything up. Worse than bad.

On the same token, me and many of my other bleeding heart pals who advocate this and other social programs part ways quite a bit. My own dad was talking about how we need the government to interviene in giving more money to send kids to college. I didn't go to college. Many of my friends did, for about 6-8 years a piece. While they were going out on weeknights and getting in half price to movies, I was paying full price and getting up early so some of my earnings could pay for their tuition, books, even toward their rent. They all drove cars, had computers--lived very comfortably without a job during that time. I produced something while they wrote papers that a professors assistant read. And now they feel entitled to a higher paycheck than I get. And more respect I might add.:rolleyes:

I pointed out

"Hey Pop, you have all kinds of tax entitlements, write offs, a corporation, etc to get OUT of paying as much taxes as possible. I sadly, as a firmly middle class blue-collar still working for the man sap have none of this. I pay every red cent they ask of me, and we are talking around 35% here in California. How can you advocate me paying more taxes, or everybody sharing this burden when you pay someone to figure out how to give as little as possible? The IRS will take more money if you are so inclined."

He actually felt sheepish. And I leave this conversation with that--anyone who has ever cheated, or even legally slicked their way out of a dime they could have paid to the IRS had better pay up before they advocate me paying another cent. I don't, and have never cheated on my taxes. If you have and still want me to pay more you are full of it.




Eli

[tpwade]

Obama: Just for the record, those things North of the great lakes and 49th parallel are provinces, not states, and they are part of Canada, not the US. Also, there are ten of them, not nine.
:D

[Frankiarmz]

You seem like a nice and decent person, and I respect your views and agree with some, but you're not blaming advertisers for peoples misdirection of their priorities are you? Thats like blaming drug dealers for the junkies addictions. Things are put in our faces all the time, you have to prioritize and stay focused. Dont blame society for your problems, take responsibility for your own actions.

Advertising is a science with plenty of research and effort with the goal in mind of selling products and services. We are bombarded with a constant stream of well thought out ads selling us all sorts of unnecessary crap. I do not blame the advertisers but they are part of the problem along with unsavy consumers. I know the tricks but most people are like sheep lead to slaughter. Women are convinced they smell and buy all sorts of chemicals which put them at risk, men have to color their gray and get pumped up on viagra, no one is immune. The ills of the American consumer and the growing crdeit card debt is needs to be addressed. Regarding junkies and drug dealers, having grown up in The Bronx but never having taken illegal drugs I can tell you with certainty the drug dealers are a major reason people have access to drugs, become addicted to drugs and die from drugs. The dealer and the junkie go hand in hand, remove one from the equation and the other goes away. I totally agree with your last point of taking responsibility for our own actions, there is far too little of this in our society from the drunk driver blaming the bar to the person defaulting on his/her mortgage and blaming the lender. Problem is getting or forcing people to man up and take that responsibility, how do you reach the masses with that message? I think it has to be legislated, put a cap on personal debt perhaps $5000.00. I think we need to have people take responsibility for their health also, keep your weight in check, don't smoke and drink responsibly. Sounds extreme to some but we would sure free up the hospitals and reduce insurance rates.

[res057]

I think it has to be legislated, put a cap on personal debt perhaps $5000.00. I think we need to have people take responsibility for their health also, keep your weight in check, don't smoke and drink responsibly. Sounds extreme to some but we would sure free up the hospitals and reduce insurance rates.

So a dictatorship is the answer? if you're looking to the government for answers or solutions, you're wasting your time. They can't run their own lives, what makes you think they'll do a better job with mine or yours? It's not just corporations that are to blame for the shifts to other countries. It's also the consumer looking for that bargain. Such-and-such retail giant has brand X on sale for 10% less than the locally owned store. Since we are going there, we might as well pick up everything else we need. One stop shopping. Anyone who has EVER shopped in such a store is to blame. Myself included. Everybody wants a better economy, a healthier environment, renewable energy sources, a general healthier lifesyle, but few are willing to make the personal and monitary sacrifices nessesary. Look at yourself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself, "Am I part of the solution, or am I just a noisy part of the problem?"
:rant-off:

[Masterplumb]

Advertising is a science with plenty of research and effort with the goal in mind of selling products and services. We are bombarded with a constant stream of well thought out ads selling us all sorts of unnecessary crap. I do not blame the advertisers but they are part of the problem along with unsavy consumers. I know the tricks but most people are like sheep lead to slaughter. Women are convinced they smell and buy all sorts of chemicals which put them at risk, men have to color their gray and get pumped up on viagra, no one is immune. The ills of the American consumer and the growing crdeit card debt is needs to be addressed. Regarding junkies and drug dealers, having grown up in The Bronx but never having taken illegal drugs I can tell you with certainty the drug dealers are a major reason people have access to drugs, become addicted to drugs and die from drugs. The dealer and the junkie go hand in hand, remove one from the equation and the other goes away. I totally agree with your last point of taking responsibility for our own actions, there is far too little of this in our society from the drunk driver blaming the bar to the person defaulting on his/her mortgage and blaming the lender. Problem is getting or forcing people to man up and take that responsibility, how do you reach the masses with that message? I think it has to be legislated, put a cap on personal debt perhaps $5000.00. I think we need to have people take responsibility for their health also, keep your weight in check, don't smoke and drink responsibly. Sounds extreme to some but we would sure free up the hospitals and reduce insurance rates.

In one breath you blame advertisers and drug dealers and then you say you totally agree with my point about taking responsibility for ones actions? If you cant afford something dont buy it, if you do drugs its your own fault, no one elses, bottom line. There are many things I want but dont because I have to focus on things that are important to my family.

[Frankiarmz]

So a dictatorship is the answer? if you're looking to the government for answers or solutions, you're wasting your time. They can't run their own lives, what makes you think they'll do a better job with mine or yours? It's not just corporations that are to blame for the shifts to other countries. It's also the consumer looking for that bargain. Such-and-such retail giant has brand X on sale for 10% less than the locally owned store. Since we are going there, we might as well pick up everything else we need. One stop shopping. Anyone who has EVER shopped in such a store is to blame. Myself included. Everybody wants a better economy, a healthier environment, renewable energy sources, a general healthier lifesyle, but few are willing to make the personal and monitary sacrifices nessesary. Look at yourself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself, "Am I part of the solution, or am I just a noisy part of the problem?"
:rant-off:

Putting limits on personal debt is not a dictatorship, it's a move to get our personal lives and economy to a better place. The government is always passing legislation that in some way restricts our behavior such as laws having to do with drug use, drinking and driving, smoking in public, things like that. I figure personal debt and financial responsibility are things that eventually impact all of us who pay taxes and pay for those who screw up their lives. Our legislators for the most part take good care of their families and themselves, good salaries, health care, you name it. What they are lacking is the incentive to run our country properly because they are not held responsible for a job well done, they simply take turns making mistakes! When I was a kid I remember the International Ladies Garment Workers Union picketing outside a department store in The Bronx that was selling shirts and other garments made in Japan. People walked past the pickets like they were nuts, no one stopped to consider the future. Well, the future is here with most of our products made in third world countries. I agree that I'm part of the problem, but that does not mean I have to shut up and go quietly into the night. The more folks who complain like me the more attention will be brought to the issues and maybe if we can distract ourselves from tv, the internet and other past times for a while and discuss our problems we could come up with some solutions. I don't have many answers right now, I'm trying to figure out if a wood burning stove is a good idea to reduce my projected $5.00 a gallon heating oil. I am pretty sure if we say nothing and do nothing we will be in a much worse place. I really think what our country needs is a plan, have some bright folks who are not in the pocket of anyone and have the best interest of the country at heart put together some ideas to turn this around. I'd rather vote on some good ideas to be put into motion than another do nothing President who will waste our time as we sink further into economic failure. I would also like to see us get serious with iraq and have them take more control of their country, and at the risk of sounding like a war monger, drop a few nukes on iran and that mental case running it.

[cpw]

Putting limits on personal debt is not a dictatorship, it's a move to get our personal lives and economy to a better place.
You can't place arbitrary limits like $5000, or even $50,000 and assume it applies to everyone. I owe a bank over $500,000 for my house, but my wife and I can afford to pay it. Other people can afford to pay or owe even more. Other people shouldn't take something like that on.

You might say a mortgage is different, but what about a car loan. I am sure that GM, Ford, Chrysler and any other manufacturer in the American market is pretty damn glad they can lend out large sums of money to sell nice shiny new cars. You are pretty likely to be underwater on one of those loans, and a car is a depreciating asset.

There is no sense in adding an arbitrary limit at the government level. There is already a limiting factor for debt, the creditors have only limited means of getting paid back; so the (sane) ones won't lend willy nilly to people who can't pay it back. The less than sane ones will go belly up, thus correcting the problem over time.

[Frankiarmz]

You can't place arbitrary limits like $5000, or even $50,000 and assume it applies to everyone. I owe a bank over $500,000 for my house, but my wife and I can afford to pay it. Other people can afford to pay or owe even more. Other people shouldn't take something like that on.

You might say a mortgage is different, but what about a car loan. I am sure that GM, Ford, Chrysler and any other manufacturer in the American market is pretty damn glad they can lend out large sums of money to sell nice shiny new cars. You are pretty likely to be underwater on one of those loans, and a car is a depreciating asset.

There is no sense in adding an arbitrary limit at the government level. There is already a limiting factor for debt, the creditors have only limited means of getting paid back; so the (sane) ones won't lend willy nilly to people who can't pay it back. The less than sane ones will go belly up, thus correcting the problem over time.

CPW, as a young man this is the only way you have seen our economy work but that does not mean it is the right way. The idea and application of credit and personal debt are fallible as proven by the outrageous unsecured debt some people can accrue. Yes, home mortgages are different than unsecured credit card debt. Recent history has proven that even home mortgages can be problematic when the lenders and borrowers are not honest. My suggestion that the government limit something like personal debt in the area of credit cards would have all sorts of ramifications some positive and some negative. I think it would be wise to at least explore such changes. Right off the bat most of us would have to limit our spending and hold off on some purchases. I agree that a one size fits all rule might not be a good idea but if we could get people to think, to use their minds and not impulse spend, not buy what they want but wait we may avoid a worsening situation.

[VASandy]

The end of the 1920's American Spend-o-rama was the great Depression. Laws were passed so that kind of stock market collapse can't wipe out people. There are still a zillion ways to wipe out people's money. It's up to the individual, in the recent case both lenders and borrowers, to be wary of their financial situation. The bad part about the recent credit meltdown was that the lenders benefited from fitting borrowers into overblown loans. The borrowers were sold a loan they could ill afford when the payments went up, but either didn't bother to keep that in mind or weren't properly informed of the eventuality of payment increase.

Still and all, it's a major screwup. Thanks to these lending practices there are families walking away from their homes, and home prices are falling like rocks. Good if you can buy....sucks if you purchased recently! And really hurts if you're trying to sell. Watch your pocketbook, look to the future. That's what Daddy always taught us.

[NHMaster3015]

Frankie, You are a learned and sensible man. (most uncommon ) I therefore cast my vote for thee.



So many problems. So few solutions.
So many takers. So few givers.

[Masterplumb]

CPW, as a young man this is the only way you have seen our economy work but that does not mean it is the right way. The idea and application of credit and personal debt are fallible as proven by the outrageous unsecured debt some people can accrue. Yes, home mortgages are different than unsecured credit card debt. Recent history has proven that even home mortgages can be problematic when the lenders and borrowers are not honest. My suggestion that the government limit something like personal debt in the area of credit cards would have all sorts of ramifications some positive and some negative. I think it would be wise to at least explore such changes. Right off the bat most of us would have to limit our spending and hold off on some purchases. I agree that a one size fits all rule might not be a good idea but if we could get people to think, to use their minds and not impulse spend, not buy what they want but wait we may avoid a worsening situation.

Maybe you want to live in a country that puts an arbitrary cap on ones credit, but I dont and I imagine most others dont. I work too hard for my money to have someone else tell me what I can buy on credit and what I cant. I guess next youre going to want to take my guns away too huh? It aint gonna happen. Less government, not more.

[Masterplumb]

The end of the 1920's American Spend-o-rama was the great Depression. Laws were passed so that kind of stock market collapse can't wipe out people. There are still a zillion ways to wipe out people's money. It's up to the individual, in the recent case both lenders and borrowers, to be wary of their financial situation. The bad part about the recent credit meltdown was that the lenders benefited from fitting borrowers into overblown loans. The borrowers were sold a loan they could ill afford when the payments went up, but either didn't bother to keep that in mind or weren't properly informed of the eventuality of payment increase.

Still and all, it's a major screwup. Thanks to these lending practices there are families walking away from their homes, and home prices are falling like rocks. Good if you can buy....sucks if you purchased recently! And really hurts if you're trying to sell. Watch your pocketbook, look to the future. That's what Daddy always taught us.

The lenders benefitted from the recent credit meltdown? Gee I thought when people foreclosed and the prices of housing goes down they get less for their properties.

Also I bought my current house during the boom and I locked into a 5% 30 year mortgage. Why in the world, in a time with historical low rates, would someone have taken an a.r.m.?

Many of the foreclosed properties are on people who took 103% - 105%mortgages (sub-prime). When values started dropping many of these people walked away from their "homes" because it was woth less then what they bought it for, and they didnt have any down payment in the house(equity) so they got out and foreclosed by choice. They had nothing to lose.

[woodenstickers]

The lenders benefitted from the recent credit meltdown? Gee I thought when people foreclosed and the prices of housing goes down they get less for their properties.


It's much more complicated than that, and yes, many people got filthy rich and stayed filthy rich through these lending practices. CDO. Look it up.

Mortgage brokers were lending money to people who they knew could never pay it back by borrowing money from the real banks. Then to make a very big buck they would sell the mortgages to Wallstreet as investments. The people started defaulting on the loans, the investors started to tighten the standards on the loans they would buy from the mortgage brokers, the mortgage brokers were stuck with whatever loans they couldn't get rid of after the standards started creeping up and then they defaulted on the money they borrowed from the banks and went belly up. They banks took a hit, they international market is just at the tip of the iceberg on the hit it is going to take, the people who can't afford to pay the loans they were granted are walking away so the housing market is plummeting and the brokers of these mortgages were making millions and millions during the frenzy. Where do you think all those millions went? They still have it.

Honestly man, I respect your right to have a point of view on anything you want, but until you realize the world is not nearly as black and white as you think it is you do yourself a disservice. And you may not want to attack others with sarcasm based purely on your common sense gut feelings of a subject. It'll have you making with the "homina-homina-homina"



Eli

[tinmack]

Honestly man, I respect your right to have a point of view on anything you want, but until you realize the world is not nearly as black and white as you think it is you do yourself a disservice. And you may not want to attack others with sarcasm based purely on your common sense gut feelings of a subject. It'll have you making with the "homina-homina-homina"



Eli

Dude.......you crack me up. By the way.....are you wearing your maple leaf pin?? If not, how can you call yourself a Canadian? And put that damn beer down during the anthem and stand up....no, it isn't extra time to go to the bathroom..........:D

[woodenstickers]

Dude.......you crack me up. By the way.....are you wearing your maple leaf pin?? If not, how can you call yourself a Canadian? And put that damn beer down during the anthem and stand up....no, it isn't extra time to go to the bathroom..........:D

I am drinking a beer right now! I am very ashamed to say it is a MGD!!! D'oh!

[cpw]

The lenders benefitted from the recent credit meltdown? Gee I thought when people foreclosed and the prices of housing goes down they get less for their properties.

Also I bought my current house during the boom and I locked into a 5% 30 year mortgage. Why in the world, in a time with historical low rates, would someone have taken an a.r.m.?

Many of the foreclosed properties are on people who took 103% - 105%mortgages (sub-prime). When values started dropping many of these people walked away from their "homes" because it was woth less then what they bought it for, and they didnt have any down payment in the house(equity) so they got out and foreclosed by choice. They had nothing to lose.
The only people who benefitted from any of the mortgage meltdown are the brokers who were on comission. They managed to get the fee for the loan, sell it off immediately with a cut and retain no risk. The people who I think are most at fault are the public/private pension funds that bought this junk without thinking that it could go down. The pension funds etc. will be out the real money.

At least in NY, I don't believe that a single borrower has any excuses for not understanding what they were doing and signing for applications. The state makes you hire an attorney for the closing/mortgage for just that reason.

The borrowers who walk away aren't out anything. They got to live rent free for 6 months to a year for the foreclosure to go through. If they were out something (i.e. they had any equity) they would have figured out a way to sell the house.

I know that I'm underwater on my house at this point (the one five houses away is a foreclosure), but it doesn't really matter since I like living in my house and don't think of it as a piggy bank on a short time scale. That and the feds/state provide so many tax benefits, that it isn't too much more expensive than our old rent. It also doesn't hurt that after the tax benefits my interest rate of 6.2% is likely to be below real inflation in the near term.

The two things I don't want to see is any government bail-out, I work hard for my money and just because someone else let a salesman hoodwink them; doesn't mean I and everyone else should directly pay for their mistake. We don't do it for people who get screwed over on buying a car loan, why would we do it for a house.

The other thing I don't want to see is a "freeze" of ARM rates or freezes of foreclosures. People who went with an ARM got benefits in the early years of low rates, they should have gone for the security of a fixed mortgage instead realizing that you aren't going to get 4% forever. I got 15 different mortgage quotes, anyone who tried to sell me something other than a 30-year fixed was told I wasn't interested. When you're talking about 3.5 years worth of earnings, it pays to comparison shop.

Aside from ex post facto laws being unconstitutional, they'll kill the housing market because mortgages will be unattainable or very highly priced. It will hurt more than any help they provide.

[woodenstickers]

At least in NY, I don't believe that a single borrower has any excuses for not understanding what they were doing and signing for applications. The state makes you hire an attorney for the closing/mortgage for just that reason.



I mostly agree with you here, but after reading some of the stories I am beginning to understand what they mean by "predatory loan practices". A lot of people, especially people who have bad fiscal IQs were ripe for the picking. To a lot of people, just the fact that somebody would give them the loan made them think they could afford it, after all, why would anyone give them hundreds of thousands if they didn't think they would get it back. Also there were some who could have been given a good loan, one they would have qualified for at a good fixed rate, but were convinced to take the one that had a better commission for the broker.

Should these people be bailed out by the government, ie, everybody else who may or may not have been smart enough to not get into a loan they couldn't afford? I say hell no. But I do feel sympathy for some of them. Not everybody is smart. I have to give a little more culpability to the folks who knew what they were doing.

And I think you have the right attitude about your predicament. You are a victim of the greed and stupidity and deceit of these people as well. Looking at your home as a long term investment instead of a short term investment is exactly what some of the people who were not quite stupid, and not quite greedy should have been doing. I'm sure you'll get your value back eventually. :)


Eli

[Frankiarmz]

The only people who benefitted from any of the mortgage meltdown are the brokers who were on comission. They managed to get the fee for the loan, sell it off immediately with a cut and retain no risk. The people who I think are most at fault are the public/private pension funds that bought this junk without thinking that it could go down. The pension funds etc. will be out the real money.

At least in NY, I don't believe that a single borrower has any excuses for not understanding what they were doing and signing for applications. The state makes you hire an attorney for the closing/mortgage for just that reason.

The borrowers who walk away aren't out anything. They got to live rent free for 6 months to a year for the foreclosure to go through. If they were out something (i.e. they had any equity) they would have figured out a way to sell the house.

I know that I'm underwater on my house at this point (the one five houses away is a foreclosure), but it doesn't really matter since I like living in my house and don't think of it as a piggy bank on a short time scale. That and the feds/state provide so many tax benefits, that it isn't too much more expensive than our old rent. It also doesn't hurt that after the tax benefits my interest rate of 6.2% is likely to be below real inflation in the near term.

The two things I don't want to see is any government bail-out, I work hard for my money and just because someone else let a salesman hoodwink them; doesn't mean I and everyone else should directly pay for their mistake. We don't do it for people who get screwed over on buying a car loan, why would we do it for a house.

The other thing I don't want to see is a "freeze" of ARM rates or freezes of foreclosures. People who went with an ARM got benefits in the early years of low rates, they should have gone for the security of a fixed mortgage instead realizing that you aren't going to get 4% forever. I got 15 different mortgage quotes, anyone who tried to sell me something other than a 30-year fixed was told I wasn't interested. When you're talking about 3.5 years worth of earnings, it pays to comparison shop.

Aside from ex post facto laws being unconstitutional, they'll kill the housing market because mortgages will be unattainable or very highly priced. It will hurt more than any help they provide.

Regarding your last point, I agree it would be a hard trick to pull off, however there is a benefit to saving those folks who are in over their heads and keeping them in their homes. Regardless of where you live, the more homes that go to foreclosure the lower your property value drops. No argument that some areas were overbuilt and some of these situations involve speculators ( house flippers), I don't know what it would take to correct those miscalculations. I do think it would be beneficial to keep the true home owners in place and paying on their loans. My friend who lives in Florida told me that there are so many folks defaulting on their car loans that the banks and other lenders are offering to extend the life of the loans drastically, it is better than reposessing and parking that car indefinitely! We should also consider how bad the economy is and how many people will face foreclosure once they start paying five dollars for a gallon of heating oil. How many people anticipated double digit increases in gasoline, heating oil and food? Try to project the stability of your finances if these essentials keep increasing, how much more can you afford to pay? I can't think of any working people who depend on a salary and raises or people on fixed income who can possibly survive these increases. We are in serious trouble and I can't imagine who or how it will turn around, can you?:confused:

[Masterplumb]

It's much more complicated than that, and yes, many people got filthy rich and stayed filthy rich through these lending practices. CDO. Look it up.

Mortgage brokers were lending money to people who they knew could never pay it back by borrowing money from the real banks. Then to make a very big buck they would sell the mortgages to Wallstreet as investments. The people started defaulting on the loans, the investors started to tighten the standards on the loans they would buy from the mortgage brokers, the mortgage brokers were stuck with whatever loans they couldn't get rid of after the standards started creeping up and then they defaulted on the money they borrowed from the banks and went belly up. They banks took a hit, they international market is just at the tip of the iceberg on the hit it is going to take, the people who can't afford to pay the loans they were granted are walking away so the housing market is plummeting and the brokers of these mortgages were making millions and millions during the frenzy. Where do you think all those millions went? They still have it.

Honestly man, I respect your right to have a point of view on anything you want, but until you realize the world is not nearly as black and white as you think it is you do yourself a disservice. And you may not want to attack others with sarcasm based purely on your common sense gut feelings of a subject. It'll have you making with the "homina-homina-homina"



Eli

I respect your right to have a point of view also. If people would hone up to their responsibilities instead of blaming others things would be more black and white.

[cpw]

It's much more complicated than that, and yes, many people got filthy rich and stayed filthy rich through these lending practices. CDO. Look it up.

Mortgage brokers were lending money to people who they knew could never pay it back by borrowing money from the real banks. Then to make a very big buck they would sell the mortgages to Wallstreet as investments. The people started defaulting on the loans, the investors started to tighten the standards on the loans they would buy from the mortgage brokers, the mortgage brokers were stuck with whatever loans they couldn't get rid of after the standards started creeping up and then they defaulted on the money they borrowed from the banks and went belly up. They banks took a hit, they international market is just at the tip of the iceberg on the hit it is going to take, the people who can't afford to pay the loans they were granted are walking away so the housing market is plummeting and the brokers of these mortgages were making millions and millions during the frenzy. Where do you think all those millions went? They still have it.
I think you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation regarding CDOs banks, etc. The only thing that is probably wrong is that those mortgage brokers still have it. A lot, even most, of them (Realtors too) thought it would last forever, spent it all and loaded themselves up with debt. Not that I feel sorry for them, I wouldn't mind having millions of dollars even if it was for just a little while. :)

[woodenstickers]

I think you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation regarding CDOs banks, etc. The only thing that is probably wrong is that those mortgage brokers still have it. A lot, even most, of them (Realtors too) thought it would last forever, spent it all and loaded themselves up with debt. Not that I feel sorry for them, I wouldn't mind having millions of dollars even if it was for just a little while. :)

That is true. I guess the luxury car, clothing, and nightclub owners got a lot of it. I think people like us in this discussion would probably have a problem with the dishonest part of the whole equation, but I bet most of us have worked harder in our lives than those who got rich by ruining the world economy with their greed.

[woodenstickers]

I respect your right to have a point of view also. If people would hone up to their responsibilities instead of blaming others things would be more black and white.

Now you are talking. I agree whole heartedly with this. It's like when Edwards was saying there are two Americas, the poor working class, and the rich who feed off them. Colbert said there also a third like him who get rich by suing the second on behalf of the first.

I can't remember the quote exactly, or who said it, but the point of it is that no Democracy will survive once the people realize they can vote themselves money from the public trough.

We have muddied this puddle up way too much to ever get back to black and white I'm afraid. I do respect folks who live their own lives that way though, and I mean that, sir.



Eli

[VASandy]

I can't remember the quote exactly, or who said it, but the point of it is that no Democracy will survive once the people realize they can vote themselves money from the public trough.

Eli

That was, I believe, Plato. He was discussing the problems with Rome's political system (The Republic).

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

Back to Osama, I mean Obama. All you have to do is look at Illinois, and you will realize how the rest of the country will look if he is elected :
-100% gun control
-100% potholes
-Welfare welfare welfare welfare
-Jesse Jackson Jesse Jackson Jesse Jackson
-His wife will be proud...of him
-Dick Turbin will be VP
-Highest gas in the world

Barry Obama is a CHICAGO democrat...nothing else to explain.

I have lived in this state all my life, its messed up and he has made it no better.

[Masterplumb]

Back to Osama, I mean Obama. All you have to do is look at Illinois, and you will realize how the rest of the country will look if he is elected :
-100% gun control
-100% potholes
-Welfare welfare welfare welfare
-Jesse Jackson Jesse Jackson Jesse Jackson
-His wife will be proud...of him
-Dick Turbin will be VP
-Highest gas in the world

Barry Obama is a CHICAGO democrat...nothing else to explain.

I have lived in this state all my life, its messed up and he has made it no better.

But Osama will bring CHANGE & hope :lmao:

[DUNBAR]

Ted "hiccup" kennedy just found out that he has a cancerous brain tumor. I bet he feels like that woman in the bottom of that lake right now....or possibly feeling he's going to be in the same company.


I'm starting to think that's maybe why he was always spouting mad, spitting and yelling. Disturbing but I wouldn't wish that prognosis on anyone.



http://www.drudgereport.com/

:(

[Frankiarmz]

I'm not thrilled with the thought of Obama becoming our next president and you guys can call him osama all you want, but just look at the condition of our country with the good old boy Bush running it into the ground! Between the democrats and republicans we have lost tens of thousands of jobs, illegals have a free run at the services we pay for and forget about a recession we could easily be headed for worse. Do any of you really think a new president will do anything to help? :smack-head:

[garager]

Franki, if only what you have to say can reach the 304,131,754 Americans. Something just might change. But its not going to change, because of our politics, old time school politics. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, payoffs, blackmail, slander. By the time I finished this, add another 100 more born here and maybe 200 more illegal aliens just crossed over.....

[NorthernIllinoisPlumber]

I'm not thrilled with the thought of Obama becoming our next president and you guys can call him osama all you want, but just look at the condition of our country with the good old boy Bush running it into the ground! Between the democrats and republicans we have lost tens of thousands of jobs, illegals have a free run at the services we pay for and forget about a recession we could easily be headed for worse. Do any of you really think a new president will do anything to help? :smack-head:

Good point. One thing we must remember (a lot dont) is that the people run the country. The country is bigger than any president, and this country has seen a lot worse. The worst thing can do is want more government.

[Frankiarmz]

Franki, if only what you have to say can reach the 304,131,754 Americans. Something just might change. But its not going to change, because of our politics, old time school politics. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, payoffs, blackmail, slander. By the time I finished this, add another 100 more born here and maybe 200 more illegal aliens just crossed over.....

Today I watched as a barrel of oil jumped three dollars, where does it end? I agree that the system got us here and unless it changes we don't stand a chance of turning things around. I was just watching my local news and they were talking about some billboard ad with some pretty models bare backs causing a big ruckus. Maybe it's just me but I think we have bigger things to be concerned about right now. I really don't know how I'm gonna fill my car, heat my house and afford food come next Fall? I watch a couple of those cable financial channels now and then and those experts don't have clue. How do they expect things to improve at this rate, they don't actually say. I apologize for the negative attitude, but I am real concerned for myself and those less fortunate.

[woodenstickers]

I just heard today that video games and systems were worth 1 billion dollars last month. That new game, Grand Theft Auto 4 made more money in it's first week than any entertainment opening ever. That includes movies, records--anything. Over $500,000,000 in the first week of sales!! I know there is an economic slowdown out there, but I'm not sure consumers have heard about it yet.

I went to the mall to visit my girlfriend, there was no parking. None. On a weekday. Mid-day. People are still spending around here. And this is where gas is now $4.27 for regular:eek:

I feel like I'm doing okay--sales in my company are way up, my girlfriend just got promoted to manage her own store (anyone need a mattress let me know, I'll get you a deal!) and I'm paying down my debt. I'm trying not to spend on anything extra, and doing okay so far, but as was stated by a smart man earlier in the thread, we all have to be accountable for ourselves.

I don't expect any president to do jack **** for us. Because they won't.


Eli

[Masterplumb]

I just heard today that video games and systems were worth 1 billion dollars last month. That new game, Grand Theft Auto 4 made more money in it's first week than any entertainment opening ever. That includes movies, records--anything. Over $500,000 in the first week of sales!! I know there is an economic slowdown out there, but I'm not sure consumers have heard about it yet.

I went to the mall to visit my girlfriend, there was no parking. None. On a weekday. Mid-day. People are still spending around here. And this is where gas is now $4.27 for regular:eek:

I feel like I'm doing okay--sales in my company are way up, my girlfriend just got promoted to manage her own store (anyone need a mattress let me know, I'll get you a deal!) and I'm paying down my debt. I'm trying not to spend on anything extra, and doing okay so far, but as was stated by a smart man earlier in the thread, we all have to be accountable for ourselves.

I don't expect any president to do jack **** for us. Because they won't.


Eli

I agree, If there is a recession or whatever you want to call it, I guess most people around here haven't felt it yet. I just took my daughter and 2 friends to a concert last weekend and it was sold out, tickets ranged from $75 for nose bleeds to $315 for lower level. We sat 5th row :smilewinkgrin:

[DuckButter]

Ditto to Eli/Woodenstickers & Masterplumb...no slow down in work here either.
I heard a report on new construction for last quarter in my state...apparently the permits are still being pulled, they DID say there were rental properties going up than personal homes, but no slowdown overall.
As for politics and who's right or wrong...I don't care.
It's supposed to be about whats right...not who.
Democrats and republicans spending vast resources to point fingers at eachother, while gas prices continually surge rediculously.
Makes me wonder if OPEC isn't just sitting back, snickering and loving the control we've allowed them.