A Little History

[Tom W]

"Those who forget history are condemed to repeat it." George Santayana

IN FLANDERS FIELDS

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place: and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard among the guns below.

We are the dead. Scarce days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow.
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from falling hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

-John McCrae

Whether you agree or disagree with our current situation in Iraq I think we owe our fallen loved ones the respect to do something. 'Catch the torch.' - attempt to do something to further your cause whether it be to stay or withdraw - for the love of all who have sacrificed their lives, limbs and mental health - for the love of God - do something.


Tom

[garager]

:bravo:

Pretty much my whole family is Military or was, same with my wife side. I have so much respect for our people in the Military or served in the Military. For the ones that gave their lives up for all of us, goes beyond words. It doesn't just take one special day, for me to think about our fallen ones. My freedom, our freedom is absolutely the greatest thing a human being can have, well next to family of course.....

[res057]

I have the utmost respect for those who are/were in the military. I never enlisted because I knew I'd spend most of my time in the brig. :D Was never, and am still not, a person who could blindly follow orders from someone who never earned my respect. That being said, for someone who did earn my respect, I'd follow them to hell and back. In retrospect, it would probably have done me a lot of good, in the long run, to have the hell beat out of me (mentally and physically) more often! The people who have enlisted in the last17 or 18 years have known full well that they probably would be put in harms way; yet they did it anyway :bravo:They are heros!

[AFM]

Iraq has been a big mistake and within a couple of years the U.S. and your ally Australia will be cutting and running which we will do and Irag will have another dictator and all the poor solders that have died there will have been a waste just like Nam (Vietnam) another war that we cut and ran from, and we never learn from the past.

Tony

[JCsPlumbing]

Iraq has been a big mistake and within a couple of years the U.S. and your ally Australia will be cutting and running which we will do and Irag will have another dictator and all the poor solders that have died there will have been a waste just like Nam (Vietnam) another war that we cut and ran from, and we never learn from the past.

Tony
While I cannot totally disagree with your statement, part of it is NOT true. We sometimes learn from the past. Sometimes we don't. Example: From what I know of the Middle East they have been fighting forever without anyone gaining real success in their lives.

That's not learning from the past.

J.C.

[AFM]

While I cannot totally disagree with your statement, part of it is NOT true. We sometimes learn from the past. Sometimes we don't. Example: From what I know of the Middle East they have been fighting forever without anyone gaining real success in their lives.

That's not learning from the past.

J.C.

If we had learnt from the past we wouldn`t have gone there in the first place.

Tony

[JCsPlumbing]

Possibly. From the information I have I agree. But do you have ALL intelligence related to the situation?

And do you learn nothing from the past? I do. Or at least I would like to think I do.

Helps keep down my "stupid things I do" percentage.

J.C.

[AFM]

Possibly. From the information I have I agree. But do you have ALL intelligence related to the situation?

And do you learn nothing from the past? I do. Or at least I would like to think I do.

Helps keep down my "stupid things I do" percentage.

J.C.

We were lied to by Bush and his cronies and we wanted to believe them so we didn`t give a stuff about the past as we were mesmerized by the prospect of oil and this is the only reason we are in that part of the world if there was no oil do you honestly think we would be there not likely.

Tony

[JCsPlumbing]

Thank goodness you're here. I will be relying on you and all of your omnipotent information involving world affairs. That way I won't make any mistakes. Thanks!:D

J.C.

[Masterplumb]

We were lied to by Bush and his cronies and we wanted to believe them so we didn`t give a stuff about the past as we were mesmerized by the prospect of oil and this is the only reason we are in that part of the world if there was no oil do you honestly think we would be there not likely.

Tony

Maybe today is not the day to debate this as we still have troops fighting for us. Why not just put all this debate on the backburner until another day. Today we should just remember the men and women who sacrificed everything for us to sit here and play Monday morning QB

I respect your right to have a point of view, but to think that we are over there just for the oil is b.s. The United States helps countries all over the world, we are a noble and caring nation. Yes we have flaws,but we do more to help this world then any other country.

Its easy to play Monday morning quaterback, and that is exactly what you are doing.

[JCsPlumbing]

Exactly. There have been tsunamis, earthquakes, typhoons etc. around the world that we send aid too. But when Katrina was over I don't remember any other country coming here to assist. But that's hijacking the thread.

My issue is that AFM says we learn nothing from the past. So my question to him/her is this: Why would U.S. or Australia leave Iraq/the Middle East?

J.C.

[drtyhands]

Maybe today is not the day to debate this as we still have troops fighting for us. Why not just put all this debate on the backburner until another day. Today we should just remember the men and women who sacrificed everything for us to sit here and play Monday morning QB

I respect your right to have a point of view, but to think that we are over there just for the oil is b.s. The United States helps countries all over the world, we are a noble and caring nation. Yes we have flaws,but we do more to help this world then any other country.

Its easy to play Monday morning quaterback, and that is exactly what you are doing.

x2

Today is the third most important day for me to give heartfelt appreciation to those before me that have protected my culture's freedom.
It is not for a soldier to reason why.
For them it is to protect what they love.
You will not hear me bickering,belittlling their ultimate sacrifice.





Even tommorrow I don't care to get into debates as to how an individual speculates how the powers that be "WAG THE DOG"

Adam

[garager]

Maybe today is not the day to debate this as we still have troops fighting for us. Why not just put all this debate on the backburner until another day. Today we should just remember the men and women who sacrificed everything for us to sit here and play Monday morning QB

I respect your right to have a point of view, but to think that we are over there just for the oil is b.s. The United States helps countries all over the world, we are a noble and caring nation. Yes we have flaws,but we do more to help this world then any other country.

Its easy to play Monday morning quaterback, and that is exactly what you are doing.

x2

Today is the third most important day for me to give heartfelt appreciation to those before me that have protected my culture's freedom.
It is not for a soldier to reason why.
For them it is to protect what they love.
You will not hear me bickering,belittlling their ultimate sacrifice.





Even tommorrow I don't care to get into debates as to how an individual speculates how the powers that be "WAG THE DOG"

Adam

Well said my friends..... Mark

[AFM]

Thank goodness you're here. I will be relying on you and all of your omnipotent information involving world affairs. That way I won't make any mistakes. Thanks!:D

J.C.

No I am not powerful or almighty, I am just expressing my opinion which is what I thought this forum was all about, without having a smart *** like you useing words like omnipotent that are not used in general convertion by your average person and just shows the fool you are for useing them.

Tony

[AFM]

Maybe today is not the day to debate this as we still have troops fighting for us. Why not just put all this debate on the backburner until another day. Today we should just remember the men and women who sacrificed everything for us to sit here and play Monday morning QB

I respect your right to have a point of view, but to think that we are over there just for the oil is b.s. The United States helps countries all over the world, we are a noble and caring nation. Yes we have flaws,but we do more to help this world then any other country.

Its easy to play Monday morning quaterback, and that is exactly what you are doing.

Yes you are right in what you say about the U.S. and I am not trying to stir the pot and you are our ally in a pact called the ANZAC treaty where Australia will help you when you are at war and visa vera and we have been fighting together since world war one and have been dying together ever since even though the U.S. is three hundred million and we are just twenty million we give what we can.
But you do have same mad presidents that come along every generation and lead us into same stupid wars that we should have know better not to get involved in and this in my opinion is one of them.

Tony

[matrix123]

nice post and thanks for this post:smile:

[NHMaster3015]

We were lied to by Bush and his cronies and we wanted to believe them so we didn`t give a stuff about the past as we were mesmerized by the prospect of oil and this is the only reason we are in that part of the world if there was no oil do you honestly think we would be there not likely.

Tony

Interesting point of view. Based on what facts? It would be great to think we went to Irac for the oil, but as of yet we don't seem to have actually recieved any of it. ( as gas prices climb to over 4 dollars a gallon) However you are indeed correct in your assumption that we would have little influence or need to be in the middle east if not for oil in general. That said you must remember that there would be no oil industry in the middle east at all if not for the billions of dollars invested by Europe, the United States and the Soviet Union over the past 80 years or so. We can argue the morality of these decisions but the die is already cast and the damage done. Much of the world relies on oil imports from the middle east and at this point in time can not afford to let these valuable reserves fall into the hands of extremist regimes. Was Irac the correct enty point? Only time will tell, but wether Irac, Iran, or Syria it was only a matter of time before action had to be taken. Saddam Hussein could have prevented the action in Irac by simply complying with the United Nations, but he refused to do so time after time. He openly defied the UN and paid the price.

[BHD]

But when Katrina was over I don't remember any other country coming here to assist. But that's hijacking the thread.

Some foreign attempts to send U.S. aid stymied
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-07-katrina-world_x.htm
Most Katrina Aid From Overseas Went Unclaimed
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/28/AR2007042801113.html
U.S. Rejected Millions in Foreign Aid for Katrina
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=8ed6b1bc57fa11e648fee 9b7d49da616

jsut do a quck google search,
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGIH,GGIH:2007-02,GGIH:en&q=katrina+foreign+assistance

[NHMaster3015]

From the USA Today article

The worst thing we could do is to take things, have them ... sit on the ground and not be utilized, to have something rot or not get to people quickly," he said at a briefing at the State Department.

Uncoordinated relief flights have been a problem in previous disasters, such as last year's Asian tsunami. Sri Lanka, a tropical country, reported receiving shipments of winter clothes.

The Bush administration has rejected only one offer, of 20 million barrels of oil from Iran. Thomas said the offer was made through the media and rebuffed because it was conditioned on the United States lifting economic sanctions

The administration accepted an offer from Venezuela, whose President Hugo Chavez has irritated the Bush administration by forging close ties with Cuba. Venezuela's national oil company is shipping an additional 1 million barrels of oil to the United States to alleviate shortages caused by Katrina.

What am I missing?

[DuckButter]

Interesting point of view. Based on what facts? It would be great to think we went to Irac for the oil, but as of yet we don't seem to have actually recieved any of it. ( as gas prices climb to over 4 dollars a gallon) However you are indeed correct in your assumption that we would have little influence or need to be in the middle east if not for oil in general. That said you must remember that there would be no oil industry in the middle east at all if not for the billions of dollars invested by Europe, the United States and the Soviet Union over the past 80 years or so. We can argue the morality of these decisions but the die is already cast and the damage done. Much of the world relies on oil imports from the middle east and at this point in time can not afford to let these valuable reserves fall into the hands of extremist regimes. Was Irac the correct enty point? Only time will tell, but wether Irac, Iran, or Syria it was only a matter of time before action had to be taken. Saddam Hussein could have prevented the action in Irac by simply complying with the United Nations, but he refused to do so time after time. He openly defied the UN and paid the price.

Thank you for having the b-lls to say that.
Left unchecked I beleive you're right, we'd have Osama himself dictating the price of oil to OPEC...Or Saddam would own Kuwait and he'd be doing so right now.

The level of power the fertile crescent region imbues on the world as a whole is staggering, terrifying.
Third world, no seperation of church and state, no indoor plumbing...empowered to cripple contemporary society influenced by standards outdated in medieval times and profit from it.

On a side note, the idea that the Bush admin used false intel to fuel the Iraq war comes up often.
I often wonder if that false intel weren't planted, or fed to us through Islamic extremist actions.

Who's knows who or what's wrong or right with so much confusion.
I proudly salute my troops regardless.

[NHMaster3015]

Thank you for having the b-lls to say that.
Left unchecked I beleive you're right, we'd have Osama himself dictating the price of oil to OPEC...Or Saddam would own Kuwait and he'd be doing so right now.

The level of power the fertile crescent region imbues on the world as a whole is staggering, terrifying.
Third world, no seperation of church and state, no indoor plumbing...empowered to cripple contemporary society influenced by standards outdated in medieval times and profit from it.

On a side note, the idea that the Bush admin used false intel to fuel the Iraq war comes up often.
I often wonder if that false intel weren't planted, or fed to us through Islamic extremist actions.

Who's knows who or what's wrong or right with so much confusion.
I proudly salute my troops regardless.

Thanks Ducky. You know, I really wish we could just go ostrich and bury our heads in the sand like many other countries do. But this time the stakes are just too high. We're dealing with a group that want's to push civilization back 500 years. Anyone who's done any deep and informed research on this knows better than to ignore what's going on.

[stxrus]

if we had gone after Ben-Ladan and kept after him, instead of diverting the fact that we had no clue where he was/is then there may be some strength in the "war on terrorism". the intelligence that was available to set up the war has pretty much been refuted. even W has said as much, in veiled ways. if that was the best intelligence we are able to muster than we are doomed as a country. i fail to think that way but contrived intel is no way to start a war.

so, taday we are in a loosing war with no way out and more of the world hates us now than ever before. i support our troops. our government couldn't even supply proper armorment for the troops. i grieve for every man and woman hurt or killed over there. i especially grieve for the 10 that died from the U.S. Virgin Islands. we can't even vote for the President but we send our soldiers to fight and die.

W had the country and the world behind him after 911 but pissed it away with a stupid war based on untruth and equally stupid stunts like "mission accomplished" and "political capital"

i truely believe that fighting for democracy (much less peace)in the middle east is like fornicating for virginity.

flame me if you wish but i am a proud American and will defend my soil with all i have. but the world is changing and i don't see a pretty picture.

steve

[DuckButter]

Found this simple but interesting:
"the US's first issue in being involved with WWII was that it was well into the Great Depression by then. the second issue was that it was against the will of the American people; they wanted to stay far away from anything that looked vaguely like war, lest they get involved in Europe's controversy."
Source:
WikiAnswers - What were the issues between intervention and isolation in World War 2 (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_the_issues_between_intervention_and_isol ation_in_World_War_2)
Diabolical tyrant, using racial superiority as a rationale for mass murder, using force to overtake neighboring countries and murder their citizens.

We wanted NO part.

More of the same, years into the future:
FOXNews.com - Brainroom: Saddam Hussein's Atrocities - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239897,00.html)
Diabolical tyrant, mass murder, using force to overtake neighboring country, rape and murder their citizens...until stopped by the U.S.

Again, we wanted NO part.

We debate whether it was right to overthrow him because the intel was wrong about WMD.

Is this some bizarre widespread form of Stockholm syndrome?

War IS bad, oh yes it is...but what is indifference in the face of mass murder? ....Good?
I think there's shame in turning a blind eye in the late 80's when the bulk of this was happening.

History repeating?

I wonder how the Kurds feel, or any citizen of Kuwait?

If we DID overthrow Saddam for the cheap oil, I want my $1 gas...whats the holdup?!?

[NHMaster3015]

Nice post Ducky. Stxrus, I may dissagree with you but I will defend your right to your opinion to the end. As for the botched intel, yes maybe, but the U.S. was not the only country to come to the same conclusions there. As for loosing the war, I believe that at last estimate things are going quite well there. problem is the media deals in bad news not good because there's lot's more money to be made reporting terrible events rather than good ones. Witness the frenzy the news media get's into every time we get a snow storm. You would think it was the end of the world. Why? Because people buy bread and milk and stock up on food and crap when they think a major storm will hit. It's mass media marketing for the sponsers and the tactic works well. Don't be fooled into thinking the media is totally liberal though. They truely don't give a damn one way or the other. They're just looking to stir the pot.

[JCsPlumbing]

No I am not powerful or almighty, I am just expressing my opinion which is what I thought this forum was all about, without having a smart *** like you useing words like omnipotent that are not used in general convertion by your average person and just shows the fool you are for useing them.

Tony


Whoa!!! You'v got alll joosed up. Plummers are somee of thee Smartist peeple I no. Thay use big werds evryday! Try somee en your convertion.

J.C.

[JCsPlumbing]

No I am not powerful or almighty, I am just expressing my opinion which is what I thought this forum was all about, without having a smart *** like you useing words like omnipotent that are not used in general convertion by your average person and just shows the fool you are for useing them.

Tony


Whoa!!! You'v got alll joosed up. Plummers are somee of thee Smartist peeple I no. Thay use big werds evryday! Try somee en your convertion.

J.C.:cool:

[AFM]

if we had gone after Ben-Ladan and kept after him, instead of diverting the fact that we had no clue where he was/is then there may be some strength in the "war on terrorism". the intelligence that was available to set up the war has pretty much been refuted. even W has said as much, in veiled ways. if that was the best intelligence we are able to muster than we are doomed as a country. i fail to think that way but contrived intel is no way to start a war.

so, taday we are in a loosing war with no way out and more of the world hates us now than ever before. i support our troops. our government couldn't even supply proper armorment for the troops. i grieve for every man and woman hurt or killed over there. i especially grieve for the 10 that died from the U.S. Virgin Islands. we can't even vote for the President but we send our soldiers to fight and die.

W had the country and the world behind him after 911 but pissed it away with a stupid war based on untruth and equally stupid stunts like "mission accomplished" and "political capital"

i truely believe that fighting for democracy (much less peace)in the middle east is like fornicating for virginity.

flame me if you wish but i am a proud American and will defend my soil with all i have. but the world is changing and i don't see a pretty picture.

steve

If we had gone after Ben Laden and not gone to Iraq we would have had him by the balls now and his terrorist organization would have been destoryed.

Tony

[AFM]

Whoa!!! You'v got alll joosed up. Plummers are somee of thee Smartist peeple I no. Thay use big werds evryday! Try somee en your convertion.

J.C.:cool:

Please go away fool

Tony

[shup]

I love it when things get going and people get snorting.:party-on:

[tinmack]

Exactly. There have been tsunamis, earthquakes, typhoons etc. around the world that we send aid too. But when Katrina was over I don't remember any other country coming here to assist. But that's hijacking the thread.

My issue is that AFM says we learn nothing from the past. So my question to him/her is this: Why would U.S. or Australia leave Iraq/the Middle East?

J.C.

The United States refused help from Canada, Venezuela, and Cuba, to name just a few.

http://www2.nysun.com/national/us-refused-most-offers-of-aid-for-hurricane/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/31/235829/261

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9311876/

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/30/katrina.fema/index.html



But then again, don't let me hijack the thread...........