Chevy Ressurecting the Volt

[cpw]

Buried in here (and I also heard this on the Radio this morning), aside from closing plants Chevy is going to start building a plug-in car. It will last ~40 miles on a charge and then switch over to a gasoline engine.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTH4LEX30JLM&refer=home

Don't know if this makes sense at the $0.17/KWh that we pay around here, but probably does make sense someplace. The 40 miles actually would work out perfectly for me, as I have a 35 mile round trip commute; and they are including a regular gasoline engine so wouldn't have to worry about stopping off at other places if the need arose.

[Woussko]

Good news there. For what it's worth there are some all electric mini cars over in Japan being mass produced. They are a bit too tiny to market here other than for off road use. One that holds 2 adults and about 4 grocery bags is said to run 50 miles on flat road at around 30 MPH. It's slow starting but is said to run along nice. I guess time will tell. Please do read up on hybrid buses by GMC, Orion and others. Times are changing.

[DuckButter]

Given the fact that the cost to run electric water heaters is so much higher then gas, I think you have a very good point.
If memory serves, as much as 10% of the energy used to make electricity is lost in transmission.
Another interesting comparison, gasoline has about 114,000 btu's per gallon at about $4 a gallon.
Assuming BTU's are a somewhat accurate way to compare energy:
1 kw = 3412 btu
1 therm = 29.3 kw
At .17 /kw that means the 114K btu equivalence to a gallon of gas would cost $5.68.
The trick being how efficient the vehicle is, but hybrid definitely sounds better than that.
Not a a rocket scientist here, so anyone feel free correct those figures.

[stxrus]

heck, just slap a couple of solar panels on that puppy and be ready for a ROAD TRIP!!!

steve

[cpw]

Good news there. For what it's worth there are some all electric mini cars over in Japan being mass produced. They are a bit too tiny to market here other than for off road use. One that holds 2 adults and about 4 grocery bags is said to run 50 miles on flat road at around 30 MPH. It's slow starting but is said to run along nice. I guess time will tell. Please do read up on hybrid buses by GMC, Orion and others. Times are changing.
I hate to admit it but a few weeks ago I read an insert in the NY Times (every few weeks what I guess is my neighbors copy makes it onto my lawn, if it isn't picked up within a couple of days I throw it out) about hybrids. Chevy is building a hybrid Yukon using the same technology as the buses (different from Prius technology) that gets 20 city/20 highway.

The cooler ones though were hybrid bucket trucks that don't need to idle while moving the bucket, and hybrid garbage trucks. The garbage truck will hydraulically store the energy from stopping and then use it to assist in starting up again.

[cpw]

Given the fact that the cost to run electric water heaters is so much higher then gas, I think you have a very good point.
If memory serves, as much as 10% of the energy used to make electricity is lost in transmission.
Another interesting comparison, gasoline has about 114,000 btu's per gallon at about $4 a gallon.
Assuming BTU's are a somewhat accurate way to compare energy:
1 kw = 3412 btu
1 therm = 29.3 kw
At .17 /kw that means the 114K btu equivalence to a gallon of gas would cost $5.68.
The trick being how efficient the vehicle is, but hybrid definitely sounds better than that.
Not a a rocket scientist here, so anyone feel free correct those figures.
I think you've got pretty good figures there. I think there are a lot of people who pay less for power than I do (like in Niagara Mohawk country), for them it may make more economic sense.

[DuckButter]

I already crunched numbers and did some research on hybrids.
At 30 MPG it's almost worhwhile with the extra $6-10K sticker price.
Fords hybrid claims the batteries last ten years, I doubt it, I'll beleive them when they warranty it for ten years.
The batteries are in the thousands to replace.
Add to that, the fact that you have extra mechanical parts to wear.
It's new technology so repairs are more expensive and for now it sounds like a crapshoot.

I will say that this is why guys like PlumbingSkool go off on a tangent over corporate manipulation of the word "green" of the market where people are panicking over gas prices.
Not all "green" industries are a scam, but I'll wait for the useful products to make it to the auto market.

[Velosapien]

Buried in here (and I also heard this on the Radio this morning), aside from closing plants Chevy is going to start building a plug-in car. It will last ~40 miles on a charge and then switch over to a gasoline engine.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTH4LEX30JLM&refer=home

Don't know if this makes sense at the $0.17/KWh that we pay around here, but probably does make sense someplace. The 40 miles actually would work out perfectly for me, as I have a 35 mile round trip commute; and they are including a regular gasoline engine so wouldn't have to worry about stopping off at other places if the need arose.

I think the project has already been running for a while, it's not ressurected. More like given higher priority now. I remember reading a while back A123 Systems was developing the batteries for it. Is it going to be a hybrid now? I was under the impression it was intended as a fully electric plug-in car with no gas engine?

[Velosapien]

Given the fact that the cost to run electric water heaters is so much higher then gas, I think you have a very good point.
If memory serves, as much as 10% of the energy used to make electricity is lost in transmission.
Another interesting comparison, gasoline has about 114,000 btu's per gallon at about $4 a gallon.
Assuming BTU's are a somewhat accurate way to compare energy:
1 kw = 3412 btu
1 therm = 29.3 kw
At .17 /kw that means the 114K btu equivalence to a gallon of gas would cost $5.68.
The trick being how efficient the vehicle is, but hybrid definitely sounds better than that.
Not a a rocket scientist here, so anyone feel free correct those figures.

Thats an interesting point. I think that being all electric it should still be more efficient. One advantage of electric is the motor only needs to run when it's needed so that energy isn't being wasted. Since a gas engine needs to run continuosly a lot of that energy is wasted sitting in traffic, idling and so on. Hybrids tend to get better mileage in city driving which would seem to confirm that.

[cpw]

I think the project has already been running for a while, it's not ressurected. More like given higher priority now. I remember reading a while back A123 Systems was developing the batteries for it. Is it going to be a hybrid now? I was under the impression it was intended as a fully electric plug-in car with no gas engine?
I think the EV1 was like that, but that really killed the market for it. This is not like a Prius in that it won't run the engine until the battery is already dying, whereas the Prius always runs the engine. If it had only the battery, you could get stuck if it wasn't quite charged etc. and wouldn't be an alternative if you could only have one car.

I also wonder if the electric motors would give better performance than a gas or diesel engine in some cases. The big train locomotives burn the diesel to make electricity to turn motors, so it can't be all bad.

[NHMaster3015]

Latest I heard is guys scouring the bone yards for Geo Metro's. Paying 3 to four times blue book for them, putting a couple g's in repairs into them and either re-selling or keeping them. Mileage ws around 50mpg if I recall.

[DuckButter]

Latest I heard is guys scouring the bone yards for Geo Metro's. Paying 3 to four times blue book for them, putting a couple g's in repairs into them and either re-selling or keeping them. Mileage ws around 50mpg if I recall.
Had one, thing had balls too.
Edit, I had the Storm - multi valve engine

[Velosapien]

Back in highschool a friend of mine had a Suzuki Swift which is the same as the Geo Metro. I remember the tank filled up with like $7 and that thing drove as around all week. It easily got well over 40mpg. Great thing was it was such a simple car you could almost fix it on the spot McGyver style with little more that some string and chewing gum :D Currently the car has been sitting unused for about 10 years and he's thinking of fixing it up and leaving his Dodge Ram at home.

[Frankiarmz]

I think the EV1 was like that, but that really killed the market for it. This is not like a Prius in that it won't run the engine until the battery is already dying, whereas the Prius always runs the engine. If it had only the battery, you could get stuck if it wasn't quite charged etc. and wouldn't be an alternative if you could only have one car.

I also wonder if the electric motors would give better performance than a gas or diesel engine in some cases. The big train locomotives burn the diesel to make electricity to turn motors, so it can't be all bad.

A few months ago I watched the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car", and the message was that GM recalled all the EV1's because they worked too well! GM never sold but only leased them and everyone in the movie who owned one raved about them. They only had a 50 mile range, but given today's lithium technology some claim the range would easily be extended to 300 miles. I too have a problem with paying several thousand dollars to replace the batteries and then there is the problem of disposing of them. Still I feel something has to happen real fast to relieve the enormous financial burden put upon us by big oil. One upside to owning a plugin car would be the option of recharging with solar energy. If solar energy becomes more popular, costs should lower and the same system used to power a house could charge your plugin car. Maybe wind turbines could be used to charge these cars?We need to think outside the "gas car" box or else they will continue to have a hold over us.

[Velosapien]

I too have a problem with paying several thousand dollars to replace the batteries and then there is the problem of disposing of them.

I was thinking about this as well but I think with proper regulation this should not be an issue. As it is over 90% of conventional lead acid batteries on cars are recycled and properly disposed of. I see no reason why the same could not be done with lithium ion or NiMH batteries. On top of that lithium ion is non-toxic and much cleaner to dispose of compared to lead acid which are chemically the nastiest batteries.

[cpw]

I was thinking about this as well but I think with proper regulation this should not be an issue. As it is over 90% of conventional lead acid batteries on cars are recycled and properly disposed of. I see no reason why the same could not be done with lithium ion or NiMH batteries. On top of that lithium ion is non-toxic and much cleaner to dispose of compared to lead acid which are chemically the nastiest batteries.
Even if they use lead acid for cost reasons but scale it up, I saw something similar on the history channel that the recycle 98% of lead and only mine like 1% (at least in the US).

Also, if they design the car so that even if the battery craps out it still goes on regular gas then the crappy battery might still be a good deal. Pay an extra $3-5k now, but save on gas for 10 years. As long as the car still works you come out ahead. I have a 11 year old car right now, and there is no way I would dump more than $1-2k into it, anything more I would just get a new one; but if it started using 2x as much gas I would still keep it.

[threecreeks3]

In the Philppines I drive a little Suzuki multicab van.3 cylinder 660cc motor.Its an automatic with a/c too.It semi comfortably hauls 5 people but we've squeezed 9 in it.The mileage varies drastically with it depending on load if going over hills etc.Around town with the wife ,kidlet and me with the a/c running part of the time it gets a bit over 40mpg average.Some claim they get 50mpg with them but that must be downhill with a tail wind and just the driver.Its scary driving it faster then about 40mph,just too light and its a cab forward design so bounces like they tend to do.Theres a forum of guys in the states that buy the 4x4 pickup version for off road use but in a few states they have been able to license them.
Sam

[egecko]

I think the EV1 was like that, but that really killed the market for it. This is not like a Prius in that it won't run the engine until the battery is already dying, whereas the Prius always runs the engine. If it had only the battery, you could get stuck if it wasn't quite charged etc. and wouldn't be an alternative if you could only have one car.

I also wonder if the electric motors would give better performance than a gas or diesel engine in some cases. The big train locomotives burn the diesel to make electricity to turn motors, so it can't be all bad.actually GM, C.A.R.B. and the OIL companies killed the EV1. GM had two sides working to promote and put down the technology and placed inferior batteries limiting the distance one could travel on a single charge. In California they had the infrustructure in place to charge them almost everywhere you went and if you pay attention while down there, you can still find the electric car charging stations signs on the freeways. Here's a list of the charging stations that was last Revised on 6/18/06. http://www.evchargernews.com/cacitiesxref.htm

To those that have not seen "Who Killed The Electric Car", I would highly recommend it.

[Woussko]

For what it's worth there are industrial quality lead-acid deep cycle batteries like used in good golf carts and more so on indoor forklifts. Given a little care and proper charging these might well outlast the car. If not it won't cost anywhere near $2500 to replace them with fully rebuilt batteries. It's really all about the monster oil companies having far too much control. We could use several methods to recharge the batteries. (A) small wind mill generator, (B) solar panels on roof of house, (Going downhill use "Electro-Dynamic Breaking") where the traction motor becomes a generator and puts most of the energy back into the batteries. We are all too used to having simple to operate and fancy vehicles. Maybe we better start to think more and come up with new ways.

We can't all just go plugging in chargers or the electric companies would have a very very serious overload issue. We need to generate our own power to charge up the car batteries. I can see rest stops with HUGE solar panels, wind mills and if they are in just the right place, water wheels and the like. They would in turn have monster banks of stationary batteries so even at night you could connect up and get a pretty quick boost while you relax inside and eat or such. Truckers best start thinking really hard and come up with some new power too. When you pay over $200K for a nice Kenworth or Peterbilt OTR tractor, so what if a replacement cost $350 but over a few years has would would be a $500K fuel payback and way lower emissions output.

Now go find a nice golf course with fully battery powered carts and then find the people that take care of them. They will tell you some pretty wild ideas about how to save big money. For small town use, why not drive golf carts as long as you're not on a main road? They can add a sort of roof for rain or too much sun to them.

Maybe I'm being a bit nuts but with most families having several cars and/or light trucks, why not have one be a little local use only vehicle? Do we really need the monster SUV to make quick runs around town? NO NO and NO

[Velosapien]

The problem with returning enerdy to the batteries when going downhill or braking is that the batteries can't recharge that energy fast enough to take any significant advantage of it. Morgan has an intereting concept under development that uses ultra capacitors to assist in recovering and storing this energy. http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/02/morgan-goes-bac.html

[oldslowchevy]

man what if cars could just be powered by air,.... oh wait a minute...... thay can.

and here is a company doing just that.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html

and

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

[Velosapien]

I heard about that air powered car some time ago and I really wonder if they thought that concept out thoroughly. I think someone had a major brain fart there. The one big problem with using compressed air is that it's one of the least efficient ways to generate energy. Something like 90% is heat waste on the compressor. Thats why running big compressors will leave you with a huge electric bill.

[Frankiarmz]

In the case of a plugin with a gas or diesel backup on board, I wonder how they keep the fuel from going bad if you rarely if ever go beyond the battery range?Maybe there is a built in safety that forces the fueled engine to cycle every so often?

[Woussko]

The problem with returning enerdy to the batteries when going downhill or braking is that the batteries can't recharge that energy fast enough to take any significant advantage of it. Morgan has an intereting concept under development that uses ultra capacitors to assist in recovering and storing this energy. http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/02/morgan-goes-bac.html

Very true about the batteries other than if you're going along at say 20-25 MPH down a 2-3 mile hill out on the mountain roads. In that case you should be able to put quite a bit back into the batteries. Not near enough to climb the next uphill grade but still a good bit. Personally I really think where the hybrid engine-electric will pay off more is with large trucks and especially with railroads where having 5 tons of batteries can be worked out. By the way, General-Electric has some new special super fast charge/discharge batteries that are way beyond the "super capacitor" in Amp Hour capacity. I'm thinking of what it would be like to make little ones for a new generation of cordless power tools. The next several years are gonna get wild and I really hope this all goes in the right direction where greed for $$$ is set aside.

I still want to see the regular engine car or SUV with a little totally electric city car in driveways. How totally foolish to drive a 6000 pound beast 4 miles to the fast food restaurant by yourself and then back 4 miles home so the family can eat quickly. Now think of the little 1500 pounder fully battery powered car. Rig it up with a slow charger. Big deal if it did take 50 hours to fully recharge. For longer trips you still have the big beast if needed.

[Woussko]

Frank

Look up a company "Gold Eagle" and their line of "Sta-Bil" products. They aren't perfect but I use it with gasoline in good cans and it's real nice to have 1-1/2 year old gasoline that will start up in a portable generator almost like when I bought it fresh. The trick is to use 2 times dose but no more. For up to about 10 month storage use as directed. They also make it for Diesel fuel and there are other chemical companies making such products.

When it gets kind of old, I put it in the tank of an engine I use all the time and burn it up. Then fresh is put in the cans and more Sta-Bil. I've found the other popular brands at Big Box stores are not near as good of a product.

[Frankiarmz]

Frank

Look up a company "Gold Eagle" and their line of "Sta-Bil" products. They aren't perfect but I use it with gasoline in good cans and it's real nice to have 1-1/2 year old gasoline that will start up in a portable generator almost like when I bought it fresh. The trick is to use 2 times dose but no more. For up to about 10 month storage use as directed. They also make it for Diesel fuel and there are other chemical companies making such products.

When it gets kind of old, I put it in the tank of an engine I use all the time and burn it up. Then fresh is put in the cans and more Sta-Bil. I've found the other popular brands at Big Box stores are not near as good of a product.

Thank you. I've been using Sta-Bil for about ten years in all my gas cans. I add it just before I fill them up. I just figured the car manufacturers would need to resolve that problem beyond adding Sta-Bil. Most drivers are barely responsible enough to check oil, can you imagine them having to measure Sta-Bil?:smash:

[oldslowchevy]

if all the motors stop running when you come to a stop can you run the ac suring the summer, and if the gas never starts up what make the heat and defroster work in the winter? i am sure it is worked out but i want to know what it is.

[cpw]

if all the motors stop running when you come to a stop can you run the ac suring the summer, and if the gas never starts up what make the heat and defroster work in the winter? i am sure it is worked out but i want to know what it is.
I don't think A/C should be a problem because you can run those off of electricity. I also thought about the heat being a problem, since I would not want to drive to work for 30 minutes in freezing weather. That also makes me think that it might be cheaper though, because at least in the summer all the heat that you get off the engine is a waste product, and the electrical system could probably be more efficient than burning the gas.

[Bob D.]

Given the fact that the cost to run electric water heaters is so much higher then gas, I think you have a very good point.
If memory serves, as much as 10% of the energy used to make electricity is lost in transmission.
Another interesting comparison, gasoline has about 114,000 btu's per gallon at about $4 a gallon.
Assuming BTU's are a somewhat accurate way to compare energy:
1 kw = 3412 btu
1 therm = 29.3 kw
At .17 /kw that means the 114K btu equivalence to a gallon of gas would cost $5.68.
The trick being how efficient the vehicle is, but hybrid definitely sounds better than that.
Not a a rocket scientist here, so anyone feel free correct those figures.


I found this with additional info on converting gallons to KWhs :

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=40231&postcount=6

and from this howstuffworks article:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question424.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question424.htm)

Now we need to figure out how much electrical energy we can get out of a gallon of gas. A gallon of gas contains about 60 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy, but this energy has to go through two conversion processes before we can use it in a light bulb[or to power some electric device]. First the chemical energy must be turned into mechanical power by the engine of the car. Car engines don't do this very efficiently -- only about 25% of the chemical energy can be turned into mechanical power, and the rest is wasted as heat. After the engine gets done with our gallon of gas we have 15 kilowatt-hours left.

[Alphacowboy]

I hate to admit it, but electric vehicles most likely will be the future.... BUT, I wish people would get off the pipe dream of solar and wind power to feed it.... not going to happen. If anything is definate, its that we CANNOT predict weather, and the climate will be ever changing... Thus, wind and solar are NOT reliable enough to warrant thier cost.

I wish this country would get over its fear of Nuclear power. We could easily power this countries needs with NO air polution at all with Nuclear power plants, but to many people think Nuclear is evil and dangerous. Granted, I think the use of Nuclear energy is a bit flawed, as using it to super heat water to cause steam to turn a turbine seems over complicated. Seems like the heat alone from the reactor could be harnessed without the need of the water system.... even though, the water is used to also keep the reactor cool and stable. Anyway, That is my biggest complaint, I just dont get the fear of the technology with todays safety measures in place.

On a completely different thought, and no idea if it would work, but why not magnets? The cost to impliment it would be probably cost prohibitive, but what if rows of magnets were placed down a road angled slighty forward in each lane. A electro magnet, or even very strong earth magnets are installed on cars that would face backward and adjusted by the pressing of the go pedal. Could act as some pretty serious braking power as well. Plus, if magnets are installed in the road way in a certian way, you couldnt drive the wrong way down a street, but vearing into another lane could be interesting to say the least. Passing would be a thing of the past though on signle lane roads. Obviously, you would need some type of electric or gas engine for driveways, dirt roads, parking lots and such, but its just an idea.

[DuckButter]

I found this with additional info on converting gallons to KWhs :

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=40231&postcount=6

and from this howstuffworks article:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question424.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question424.htm)
Now we need to figure out how much electrical energy we can get out of a gallon of gas. A gallon of gas contains about 60 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy, but this energy has to go through two conversion processes before we can use it in a light bulb[or to power some electric device]. First the chemical energy must be turned into mechanical power by the engine of the car. Car engines don't do this very efficiently -- only about 25% of the chemical energy can be turned into mechanical power, and the rest is wasted as heat. After the engine gets done with our gallon of gas we have 15 kilowatt-hours left.

WOW!
I skiimmed over thermal loss assuming it was relatively the same for electric...oops.
You got me scurrying around the internet to look up thermal loss on electric and my assumption was way off.
Electric motors have an efficiency that ranges from 30% to 90%, depending on the load.
From what I could gather an engine this size runs on the medium to higher end of efficiency - meaning it runs at least 50%+ efficient.

Making the electric equivalent to a gallon of gas anyhwhere from $1.40 to $3.00.
I'd wager there are other factors that come into play with that price as well.
What his post does say is the amount of battery weight it takes just to attain a small amount of storage comparitive to gas is huge.
If I read correct, 2800 lbs of lead cells to equal 2.8 gallons of gas, or 1,000 lbs of Li batteries.

2.8 gallons would get me to the next gas station.

What I missed on this thread, or maybe it wasn't mentioned, is that aside from the Volts 30+ mile max capacity, it also has a built in gas generator that extends the vehicles range to 640 miles without a charge.

Ok then, it's got my attention.
What I'd really like to know is what amount of gas it takes to achieve that 640 mile range...also...how fast this thing accelerates.

[oldslowchevy]

how fast this thing accelerates.


i bet not as fast as this one!!!
http://www.teslamotors.com/:eek:

[DuckButter]

i bet not as fast as this one!!!
http://www.teslamotors.com/:eek:
HOLY COW!!!

"Tesla Roadster from 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds. Meanwhile, the battery stores enough energy for the vehicle to travel about 220 miles (http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php?flat=1#faq-q-text2) without recharging (http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/charging_and_batteries.php), something no other production electric vehicle in history can claim."

HOLIER COW!

"Roadster base price: $109,000"

[oldslowchevy]

HOLY COW!!!
HOLIER COW!

"Roadster base price: $109,000"
a tad pricy maybe, but just last year alone i went though $19,971.23 in gas just in my personal pickup. so for me after 5 years of buying fuel at the same rate (and the price has already gone up 40 cents a gallon since i did my taxes) that would come to $99,856.15 so the car would only cost me 10 grand.

no i am not going to run out and get one of these any time soon, but in 5 years where will this technology be? and at what price? this could very well be made in to a very viable car with other body styles based off the same platform. i would take a 4 seater with half the performce and 1/3 less range in the $35 k range, they would almost put the big 3 out of bissness with a car like that, almost

[DuckButter]

a tad pricy maybe, but just last year alone i went though $19,971.23 in gas just in my personal pickup. so for me after 5 years of buying fuel at the same rate (and the price has already gone up 40 cents a gallon since i did my taxes) that would come to $99,856.15 so the car would only cost me 10 grand.

no i am not going to run out and get one of these any time soon, but in 5 years where will this technology be? and at what price? this could very well be made in to a very viable car with other body styles based off the same platform. i would take a 4 seater with half the performce and 1/3 less range in the $35 k range, they would almost put the big 3 out of bissness with a car like that, almost
That's EXACTLY what I just said to my wife...IF this isn't some kinda hype, I can only imagine it goes mainstream within 5 years for passenger cars, SUV's and trucks

[Velosapien]

At $109,000 thats actually cheap. When the tesla project started it was estimated to cost $200,000+. The lithium ion batteries accounted for about 75% of that cost. Looks like as the battery prices keep dropping vehicles like it will become more practical. It's likely that being a sports car gives it a significant aerodynamic and weight advantage which should account for some of it's rather impressive range.

[oldslowchevy]

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/make/overview.html;_ylt=AioncJYcP.dKKXTIUVxzhZsEc78F;_y lv=3?makeId=tesla

heyyyyyyyy i found it for 89,000:nyaa-nyaa4: