truckers move the U.S.A.

[oldslowchevy]

many of you know that i am a driver(though not doing so at this time) and many of you also know that diesel in most parts of the country is now past $5 a gallon a station 1 mile from me is $5.74.

i talk to quite a few drivers and the price they pay per gallon of fuel is killing them many will do a run for an example for $1000 not bad huh, till you see they have spent $1200 in fuel just to do the run, and that does not include food!!!!. how long can this go on for? these people give so much of them selfs just to provide stuff for us so they in turn can provide for there families. and here recently out of the 30 drivers that i talk to and have known for years, well now there are scared,11 might lose there homes, 18 of them either have lost of are losing there wife and or kids and 27 of them are at the very least 2 payments late on there rigs and all 30 of the are atleast 1 patment late. and no i am not kidding or making this up.

fuel prices is going to start some very bad situations on our highways very soon. this drivers are going to start running 2-maybe even 3 log books (cdl drivers are only allowed to run 60 hours on a 7 day week) and think about this how do these drivers stay awake for 24-72 hours at a time? drugs, that how. yes nothing new to the trucking industry but the industry had made major major advancements in cleaning up it's act over the past 20 years. now image you and your family are out on the highway and a 40 ton, thats 80,000 pounds of truck passes you and you look up in the cab.......... and the driver is hunched over asleep at the wheel with his foot still on the gas. can you image?:eek:

this is really getting out of control unemployment is almost at setting records, fuel has just topped 140 a barrel, and the people that have to supply this country with goods are losing every thing they have worked so very hard for. it just is not right. we as a nation need to speak up and we need to do it soon. we can no longer be :ignore::ignore::ignore: about this. if it is afecting our drivers then it will afect you to, it is just a matter of time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxygoUW0KY0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cQ3_Gm6pXc&feature=related

[cpw]

i talk to quite a few drivers and the price they pay per gallon of fuel is killing them many will do a run for an example for $1000 not bad huh, till you see they have spent $1200 in fuel just to do the run, and that does not include food!!!!
Why are they doiing the run instead of staying home if they have to pay $200 (even more than that after you count maintenance etc.) to work?

This is going to have to trickle down to the rest of us in the form of higher prices on food, and pretty much everything else; since there is no way that this is sustainable.

[Tom W]

Here is an example of what CPW alluded to when he suggested trickle down effects. On the macro side of fuel costs, I went to work for a company a few weeks ago that does environmental clean ups. They have a $23,000,000 job projected to start around the first of July. Since the award of the bid a few months ago, and last week, unanticipated projected fuel costs have risen $1.2 million dollars. Not risen to $1.2 million risen by $1.2 million. Unfortunately for the company there is no clause for increased fuel costs to be added to the contract. The cost rise is primarily based on the price of natural gas which will be flowing through a four inch line 24 hours a day for a minimum of 10 months into a portable burn plant. Costs of diesel fuel for end dumps, dozers, excavators and the like are also factored into the cost rise.

The trickle down effect is that this project is federally funded. The company is currently working on a bid for a project four times the size of this one. Who is going to pay for the increased fuel costs associated with the new project? You and me - taxpayers. We might not think about fuel costs associated with construction projects but they are huge. I wonder what the trickle down effect of fuel costs has on the cost of Ridgid Tools. They have to pass the increased costs of fuel along to the consumer. Everything is effected.

-Tom

[Service Guy]

So truckers need to charge more, since fuel is a business expense.
If all of you collectively demand more pay, the market must pay it.

[mrs. westcoast]

So truckers need to charge more, since fuel is a business expense.


Or start eating less:)

[oldslowchevy]

So truckers need to charge more, since fuel is a business expense.
If all of you collectively demand more pay, the market must pay it.
you must have no idea how this industry works,

we do not nor can we demand more pay, it don't work like that. you get a load you are told where the load is and where it is going to what the milage is and what the shipper with pay and if you don't want that load you can (and will) sit at the truck stop for the next few days until another run comes along, while some else take that run.

over the road drivers often spend a month or more on the road. that means 30 plus days so that you and i can have the life that you have and they do not see there familes or friends for 30 or more days.

since you are a plumber but trade i will try to explain this to you in trems that you will understand(hopefully)

do you go out and do free estments? how much gas did you burn? now if you do say 10 estments a week how much did you burn? and you have not made a dime yet. now out of the 10, 2 call you back to do the work. now you do a bid on prices as they are now(toilets pipe sinks fittings ect.) but you can't do the work for oh lets say a month and a half due to the site not being ready permits that need to be pulled ect well since then the prices in fuel has gone up .20 cents a gallon now your sully house had to raise there prices on every thing due to the fuel prices and yet you are still bruning fuel to get every thing that you need, now how much did that jump in fuel just kill your profit that a month and a half ago would have been oh lets just say 1500, but now is closer to 1000 maybe more, maybe less. but still it put a hit on you.

now how does that compare?

if i took a load from south west florida to washington state. and when i left here fuel was 5.74 a gal(what it is currently) and over the 5 days it would take me to drive there(remember trucker cant drive the miles reguler drivers can) fuel jumps up to oh lets say 5.85 a gallon, and i have to fill my tanks every two days at a 300 gallon fill up that would cost me $1752 every two days, and your answer is for drivers to raise there prices, come on now that is just insane.

i do know what you mean that if we all demand more the market must pay it but it just won't work, not for long

[Service Guy]

i do know what you mean that if we all demand more the market must pay it but it just won't work, not for long

Why not? Its the law of Supply and demand. If there is no profit in trucking, everyone will quit trucking. If nobody is trucking then the DEMAND for it will drive prices UP.

If the industry is really as bad as say it is, then get out of trucking because you make it sound like nobody is making any money at all and there is no hope of making more.

p.s. I don't do free estimates. My business fuel is indirectly payed for by my customers as it should be.

[Service Guy]

It seems simple to me. Trucking requires fuel. If fuel prices go up, shipping prices also must eventually go up accordingly to compensate. If not, then nobody will want to do it.

[oldslowchevy]

ok here is why what you say wont work, that guy working at mc donalds, or the local gas station wal-mart or other low paying jobs, if the drivers keep rasing prices then how can those low paid workers make ends meet? they can't.

as far as me geting out of driving i have since there was not work here i might of ran 4 day a month, so i stepped down out of the industry for a while. till my son goes to boot camp then i might go to work for as a company driver some where as there is no way i can make a living down here as a dump truck driver. but i would not even concider being an owner operater.

the big problem is this fuel goes up, product prices go up, wages stay the same, now you please tell me how that works?

service guy the last thing i feel like doing is argueing with you. you think you are right and i think i am right, and i am not going to battle this with you or anyone else, fuel prices have jumped up almost 200% in 10 years and nothing else has, it has to effect something other then your wallet.

[Service Guy]

In my view its our dependence on oil that got us here. Nobody listened until its now hurting the economy. It was inevitable this was going to happen. Now we have to deal with it one way or another.

[JimDon]

Kevin,
I know you're right. It just doesn't pay to argue with some people. Some won't get it until the recession deepens into a full-blown depression (and it's coming by the way). When people can't afford to eat, drive to work, and their service business goes down the drain, then they'll get it, but they won't ever admit it. Good luck to you Kevin, a lot of us in the Northern states are suffering right now too. We've got a few fat cats running the country and running their corporate profits sky high, but when the S--- hits the fan, things will change radically.
Jim Don

[Service Guy]

Yes we are in a recession. So what now?

[Service Guy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080607/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_meeting

Leading energy-consuming nations urged oil producers Saturday to boost their output to counter soaring prices threatening the world economy, while they pledged to develop clean energy technologies and improve efficiency.

It looks like the major oil nations are pushing for increased output.

[Frankiarmz]

[QUOTE=oldslowchevy;148784]many of you know that i am a driver(though not doing so at this time) and many of you also know that diesel in most parts of the country is now past $5 a gallon a station 1 mile from me is $5.74.

i talk to quite a few drivers and the price they pay per gallon of fuel is killing them many will do a run for an example for $1000 not bad huh, till you see they have spent $1200 in fuel just to do the run, and that does not include food!!!!. how long can this go on for? these people give so much of them selfs just to provide stuff for us so they in turn can provide for there families. and here recently out of the 30 drivers that i talk to and have known for years, well now there are scared,11 might lose there homes, 18 of them either have lost of are losing there wife and or kids and 27 of them are at the very least 2 payments late on there rigs and all 30 of the are atleast 1 patment late. and no i am not kidding or making this up.

fuel prices is going to start some very bad situations on our highways very soon. this drivers are going to start running 2-maybe even 3 log books (cdl drivers are only allowed to run 60 hours on a 7 day week) and think about this how do these drivers stay awake for 24-72 hours at a time? drugs, that how. yes nothing new to the trucking industry but the industry had made major major advancements in cleaning up it's act over the past 20 years. now image you and your family are out on the highway and a 40 ton, thats 80,000 pounds of truck passes you and you look up in the cab.......... and the driver is hunched over asleep at the wheel with his foot still on the gas. can you image?:eek:

this is really getting out of control unemployment is almost at setting records, fuel has just topped 140 a barrel, and the people that have to supply this country with goods are losing every thing they have worked so very hard for. it just is not right. we as a nation need to speak up and we need to do it soon. we can no longer be :ignore::ignore::ignore: about this. if it is afecting our drivers then it will afect you to, it is just a matter of time.

OSC, this is a daily topic of conversation with me a a couple of retired buddies. Don't want to doom and gloom but it sure seems serious and what's more for the life of me I don't see a way of turning it around. Too much is out of wack. Twenty plus million illegals using local services and not contributing, taking jobs (semi skilled and skilled) from Americans because they can undercut. Tens of thousands of jobs lost to the third world and the oil companies making billion dollar profits. Seriously, what in this mess is going to change with a new president? Nothing!!! In my opinion left unresolved there will be some kind of protests, demonstrations or other more violent behavior seen real soon. Folks who were barely making ends meet when the oil was $60.00 plus last year are doomed when it hits $150.00 plus real soon. News commentator on the Fox channel made the mistake yesterday after the $11.00 rise on a barrel of crude that just one hurricane and we will be paying $7.00 a gallon for gas. How about heating our homes and feeding our families? Our legislators need to call an emergency meeting and sit down with big oil, lay out on the table that if they don't roll back prices and take less profits, get the stock market to suspend trading and speculators, our economy will collapse. IF you agree that this could happen and things are this serious, then you know what to expect. I'm stocking up on shot gun shells and canned goods. Got the wood burning stove on order, and I'm getting prepared for a long haul of bad times ahead. This is no joke, no cycle in our economy and the experts on tv will be roasting in hell for lying to the public.

[Service Guy]

Hard times for sure. I hate to admit it, but I'm beginning to think like you Frankie, that a giant economic crisis is coming and its time to hunker down, old school.

[Masterplumb]

Say what you want but its basic business, if you get $1000 for a run and it costs you $1200 plus food and maintenance to complete the run you just lost money, and you will continue to lose money. Raise your prices, if you cant then sell your truck and get out of the business. I dont put my boots on in the morning to lose money nor should any owner/driver.

[cpw]

you must have no idea how this industry works,

we do not nor can we demand more pay, it don't work like that. you get a load you are told where the load is and where it is going to what the milage is and what the shipper with pay and if you don't want that load you can (and will) sit at the truck stop for the next few days until another run comes along, while some else take that run.
OSC,

I can understand if you lose money on a run overall still taking it (e.g., if you would make some $$$ after fuel to chip a little bit at the truck payment). But if the fuel costs more than the whole run, and you know that ahead of time it would seem that idling at a truck stop would put you less far behind than taking the run. Your point about it going up so fast that within a week for the run your pricing gets messed up is taken though.

I don't think there is anything else that can happen except for shipping prices to go up, which will effect everything and reduce everyone's disposable income. Like Service Guy pointed out, even if the truckers want to stay busy and keep doing runs for negative income, they won't be able to do it for very long at all. Some of them will just give up and there will be fewer other guys who would take a load for less; self-correcting the problem [of course that will hit us all in the pocketbooks].

Free-market economics will make any system balance out in the long run. Unfortunately, the long run can be a very very long time away.

[JimDon]

Unfortunately free market economics is no longer functioning in this country. That's why we're in the mess we're in right now. There is more oil out there now than they ever thought possible. Our consumption in the U.S. of oil and oil based products is dropping daily. So supply is steady or increasing and demand in one of the biggest oil-using nations is falling. Yet the price of oil continues to rise? Market manipulation, plain and simple. One of the "reasons" big oil gives for increased demand is the rise in use in China. Yet China was paying $2.54 per gallon U.S. in the past two weeks. What's going on? Market manipulation. Like I said, free market economics has been snowplowed to the side of the road. "Definition: A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. This is mainly a theoretical concept as every country, even capitalist ones, places some restrictions on the ownership and exchange of commodities." From: economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/free_market_e.htm - 22k
Jim Don

[Frankiarmz]

Unfortunately free market economics is no longer functioning in this country. That's why we're in the mess we're in right now. There is more oil out there now than they ever thought possible. Our consumption in the U.S. of oil and oil based products is dropping daily. So supply is steady or increasing and demand in one of the biggest oil-using nations is falling. Yet the price of oil continues to rise? Market manipulation, plain and simple. One of the "reasons" big oil gives for increased demand is the rise in use in China. Yet China was paying $2.54 per gallon U.S. in the past two weeks. What's going on? Market manipulation. Like I said, free market economics has been snowplowed to the side of the road. "Definition: A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. This is mainly a theoretical concept as every country, even capitalist ones, places some restrictions on the ownership and exchange of commodities." From: economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/free_market_e.htm - 22k
Jim Don

Great observation and gets to the root of our problem. Big Oil has discovered that the American public has no choice but to keep paying higher prices. These prices are not driven by actual demand but rather corporate greed and investor speculation. In terms of "balancing out" in this unique situation I don't see that concept being applicable. I do anticipate a breaking point, a price for gasoline, diesel, heating fuel , and related items such as food reaching a place where enough consumers simply cannot afford to buy. There is not enough media coverage but I think it's safe to say that for those who were barely getting by a year or two ago, that critical time has arrived. People keep cutting back and when they just run out credit and money what happens? What dangers await our economy and society in general? I think the only answer right now is emergency legislation, or some compromise with Big Oil. Our government needs to do something drastic in order to prevent a massive tragedy due to these out of control price increases. What is your breaking point, $6, $7, $8 dollars for fuel? Do you really think that your customers will be able to afford your price increases as well? We are all in trouble and need extrodinary measures to be taken.

[Tom W]

The cost of oil, which is traded in dollars, is based on the value of the dollar relative to other currencies. Because the value of the dollar is low, relative to these other currencies, we have to pay more for the oil we in the US use.

I don't understand one thing I just wrote. I parroted it from a newscast. Can someone explain how this works? If the dollar is 10% lower than the Chinese currency and gas is $2.45 there, why isn't the price for gasoline reflective of a 10% increase over the cost of gas in China - $2.45 + $.245 = $2.695? Is the value of the dollar, traded against other currencies, 35%, 40% or 50% less?

I don't hold much stock in conspiracy theories, three men in a room making decisions about world affairs and all that stuff. However in the 70s I was a member of a pretty radical survivalist group, two 50 cal. machine guns in a cave, buying ammo for your personal weapons in small lots so as not to raise any suspitions, food storage rotated, the whole nine yards. Everyone had a specific job related to survival of the group. You pledged to kill anyone who was not a member if they approached our position when the end time came. Maybe it is time to look-up my old pals.

Tom

[Frankiarmz]

The cost of oil, which is traded in dollars, is based on the value of the dollar relative to other currencies. Because the value of the dollar is low, relative to these other currencies, we have to pay more for the oil we in the US use.

I don't understand one thing I just wrote. I parroted it from a newscast. Can someone explain how this works? If the dollar is 10% lower than the Chinese currency and gas is $2.45 there, why isn't the price for gasoline reflective of a 10% increase over the cost of gas in China - $2.45 + $.245 = $2.695? Is the value of the dollar, traded against other currencies, 35%, 40% or 50% less?

I don't hold much stock in conspiracy theories, three men in a room making decisions about world affairs and all that stuff. However in the 70s I was a member of a pretty radical survivalist group, two 50 cal. machine guns in a cave, buying ammo for your personal weapons in small lots so as not to raise any suspitions, food storage rotated, the whole nine yards. Everyone had a specific job related to survival of the group. You pledged to kill anyone who was not a member if they approached our position when the end time came. Maybe it is time to look-up my old pals.

Tom

Tom, all kidding aside I would say it's past time to look up those old friends and get moving! The damage done by our government and big oil has not really been seen yet and will become move evident as time passes. I do stock up on food and other essentials that could help me and my family get by in the event of a natural or manmade disaster. Those who think I am an extremist or otherwise foolish are the same folks who run around in the dark when power fails and they don't have a single working flashlight. I am very concerned for our future and I wish more people took this seriously, not to get sick worrying but to make sensible plans and alterantives.

[cpw]

The cost of oil, which is traded in dollars, is based on the value of the dollar relative to other currencies. Because the value of the dollar is low, relative to these other currencies, we have to pay more for the oil we in the US use.
The other currency on the world market that probably the matters most from a financial perspective is the Euro. If oil is $100 a barrel and the Euro is $1.50, then the barrel of oil costs 66.67 Euros. If the dollar weakens to $1.60 then the barrel costs 62.50 Euros, assuming the dollar price is the same. But if the dollar is just less valuable than not the oil, then the Euro price should stay the same. When the price stays constant in Euros, the barrel would cost $106.67.

I think this probably accounts for some of the increase, but not all of it. I think the more plausible explanation is that hedge funds/others are dumping money into oil and other commodities and they are rallying like a bunch of .com stocks (or houses). Hopefully commodities will unwind like they did with tech stocks/houses.

I don't understand one thing I just wrote. I parroted it from a newscast. Can someone explain how this works? If the dollar is 10% lower than the Chinese currency and gas is $2.45 there, why isn't the price for gasoline reflective of a 10% increase over the cost of gas in China - $2.45 + $.245 = $2.695? Is the value of the dollar, traded against other currencies, 35%, 40% or 50% less?
The Chi-coms and other countries actually subsidize gasoline. I heard on the news they stopped or decreased subsidies in Indonesia last week and caused riots.

The government isn't blameless in all of this. They allow other countries to play by a different set of rules than we do, yet don't do anything about it. They also make more in taxes off a gallon of gasoline as the oil companies do in profit.

[Tom W]

CPW, thanks for the explaination, the economics of oil seems pretty complex to me. Is there a book/booklet that you know of, like Oil Economics 101 or Oil Economics For Dummies that might offer an elaboration of some of the basics behind oil trading?

Thanks,
Tom

[cpw]

CPW, thanks for the explaination, the economics of oil seems pretty complex to me. Is there a book/booklet that you know of, like Oil Economics 101 or Oil Economics For Dummies that might offer an elaboration of some of the basics behind oil trading?

Thanks,
Tom
Not that I know of. I think the DOE has some stuff, but I got most of this from reading the news etc. Oil is a much more complicated market than stocks etc. because there is less transparency and not all oil is the same. I personally don't quite understand all of the stuff related to contracts expiring etc. The one that is usually quoted is the current month (which changes one day a month) West Texas Intermediate crude with delivery at Cushing, OK. The Brent Sea North is also widely quoted. Other types of oil will trade at a premium or discount to these contracts based on quality (e.g., most OPEC oil is at a discount) and also location.

[oldslowchevy]

Truck Gas Costs Passed Onto Consumers

http://llnw.image.cbslocal.com/33/2008/04/25/75x56/_xlMcPherson.jpg Reporting
Kelly McPherson (http://wjz.com/bios/kelly.mcpherson.bio.9.708730.html)
MARYLAND (WJZ) ―
While drivers are concerned with $4 a gallon for gasoline, everyone may want to pay attention to the diesel prices, too. Some truckers are paying $5 for diesel, and that price is affecting everyone else.
Kelly McPherson reports how the jump in diesel will cost us all more.
The people who transport just about everything, from food to furniture, are filling up on diesel. It's a fuel that used to be cheaper than gas, but now it's putting a strain on trucking companies who have no other choice than to pass along the cost to us.
Taking home salmon is going to cost more. Fresh seafood gets to the store by truck. The cost of delivery is going up as diesel fuels flirt with $5 a gallon.
"All drivers try to get the best deal they can for the company. You know we want to keep our jobs. But just watching them go up and not come back down has been a scary sight," Vic Maynard, a truck driver, said.
"We get emails everyday from five different fuel suppliers in the area so we can determine who we're going to buy our fuel from. We never used to do that. We used to be pretty loyal to whom we bought our fuel from everyday. Now we go on whomever is the cheapest," said JJ Conway, operations manager of SeaCap, Inc.

Between the engine and keeping the trailer refrigerated, some trucks use 1,800 gallons of diesel every eight days. At $5 a gallon, that's $9,000, almost double what the companies paid last year.

The Maryland Motor Truck Association says some trucking companies are already going out of business.
"You can't keep up with a daily rate change. Furthermore, to try and bill for that has everybody's receivables topsy turvy," Ann Ferro said.
SeaCap can keep more than 30 trucks delivering seven days a week if the cost of filling up is passed along.
"We're just a small guy out of all of these other trucking companies in this country. And I don't know what else to do, but you just have to keep going up on your price," Conway said.

That guarantees higher prices for seafood, and everything else transported by truck, which is most of your groceries.

[Rafael]

Is there a book/booklet that you know of, like Oil Economics 101 or Oil Economics For Dummies that might offer an elaboration of some of the basics behind oil trading?

Thanks,
Tom

It's simple. OPEC controls the production of enough oil in the world to effectively control the price. They decide what price to sell it for, if you dont like the price you dont have to buy it, but people buy it anyway. They will raise the price to the point where they can make the most money without destroying the world's economy because if they hurt the economy too much then nobody will be able to buy their oil.
This is just like a drug dealer, if they price the drugs too high then they will not sell much.
The problem with the oil market is that you have a monopoly(OPEC) that controls enough of the oil to dictate any price they want to charge. They do not have enough competition to effect their behavior.

[oldslowchevy]

i have often wondered if we as a nation quit buying oil from opec and drilled here and then used our own oil, what would the price be, would it be worth it?

also as much as i hate to say this because i don't like the goverment in my home, but what if the goverment mandated somthing that private citizens could only have 2 cars max per house hold?, now dont take that to the letter folks, i just know there are many people here in my town that has 5,6,7,10 or more cars and trucks that is alittle insane in my opinion.

[wrench spinner]

i have often wondered if we as a nation quit buying oil from opec and drilled here and then used our own oil, what would the price be, would it be worth it?

A lot less from what we are paying now!!!!! Has anyone ever seen that special on the Discovery Channel about the Mansions these oil sheiks have in Dubai?

[Rafael]

I dont care how many cars someone has, you can only drive 1 at a time.

[oldslowchevy]

I dont care how many cars someone has, you can only drive 1 at a time.
this is true but if you have say a family of 4 (man woman 2 teenagers) then no one car pools and then no gas is being saved:nanner:

[JimDon]

I agree Kevin that something needs to be done -- maybe limiting cars is one thing that should happen. We had gasoline rationing during WWII -- and nobody complained. Maybe we need to go to gas rationing in order to cut fuel use and SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WHO ARE AT WAR. Or does no one really believe this mantra anymore. We should also cut ALL speedlimits on all highways nationwide to 50 mph tops. We went to a nationwide 55 in 1972 and that worked. Not a word from our White House on conserving fuel, driving slower, limiting gas, gas rationing, turning off lights, saving energy, etc. etc. etc. Even President Richard Nixon in 1972 enacted many many ways to conserve fuel during the first energy crunch this great country of ours went through. Yet, all I hear now is the sound of crickets. Hmmmm! If we were the true patriots we claim to be, everyone, from the President on down would be doing our best to conserve fuel. After all, our country is on the verge of economic meltdown and we need to take drastic measures to keep it afloat and preserve our patriotic freedom. Does NO ONE care?

Interesting, very interesting,

Jim Don

[Frankiarmz]

I agree Kevin that something needs to be done -- maybe limiting cars is one thing that should happen. We had gasoline rationing during WWII -- and nobody complained. Maybe we need to go to gas rationing in order to cut fuel use and SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WHO ARE AT WAR. Or does no one really believe this mantra anymore. We should also cut ALL speedlimits on all highways nationwide to 50 mph tops. We went to a nationwide 55 in 1972 and that worked. Not a word from our White House on conserving fuel, driving slower, limiting gas, gas rationing, turning off lights, saving energy, etc. etc. etc. Even Richard Milhouse Nixon in 1972 enacted many many ways to conserve fuel during the first energy crunch this great country of ours went through. Yet, all I hear now is the sound of crickets. Hmmmm! If we were the true patriots we claim to be, everyone, from the President on down would be doing our best to conserve fuel. After all, our country is on the verge of economic meltdown and we need to take drastic measures to keep it afloat and preserve our patriotic freedom. Does NO ONE care?

Interesting, very interesting,

Jim Don

Another great post with some good suggestions and observations. I remember all those gas and energy saving ideas, makes no sense that they are not coming back into use. I don't want to insult conservatives or liberals but wheter it's the arab or american oil companies raising prices, they have to be nuts to think we can afford five dollar heating fuel. I know someone will say if you don't like it don't buy it, and I swear if you were in front of me there would be trouble! I spent most of the day using my chainsaws to cut up a downed tree in my neighbors yard. A city worker was marking damaged trees for removal and I asked what they did with the wood? He told me where dropped it off but warned peopel were getting desperate for wood. I stil say we have not felt or seen the true impact of these high prices.

[Rafael]

The problem where I live is too many people. Speeds on the highways here are typically under 15mph, streets are often gridlocked, that's a big waste of fuel. But the idiot politicians keep changing the zoning laws to allow more and more people to live in more crowded areas. People commute here from 100 miles away too, they want the cheap homes but take jobs that take 3 hours to get to. Change these 2 things and fuel use is not a big concern here.

[oldslowchevy]

i don't miss the 55mph speed limits but if we went back to them i would welcome it if if truly lowwered fuel prices, but i to have wondered why the white house has been so darn quite here latly about energey.

[Rafael]

They're quiet because it's an election year.
55mph where I live is a dream, cant happen with the traffic here. But tell all those folks in Montana that they'll have to drive 400 miles at 55mph and you might cause a riot.

[Service Guy]

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/1146/big-government-responsible-for-high-gas-prices/

[oldslowchevy]

They're quiet because it's an election year.
55mph where I live is a dream, cant happen with the traffic here. But tell all those folks in Montana that they'll have to drive 400 miles at 55mph and you might cause a riot.


i agree about this being an election year, but those folks in montana used to drive 55 and if they had to do it again i bet they would, not happily but they would still do it:mad:

[Frankiarmz]

People have moved further away from their jobs in order to buy more affordable homes. It's too bad more was not done to prepare us for these difficult times and skyrocketing prices, but what's done is done. So what happens next? Peope can't just up and move close to their jobs, they can't go without heat in their homes or food in their stomachs. Do we just sit by quietly and wait for the prices to keep rising? Most of us will do just that, sit quietly, respect the law and our fellow man, however those who are desperate will do desperate things. You can defend the oil companies and their right to profit all you want but when folks can't afford to get to work, heat their homes and eat there is going to be trouble. I sure hope no one expects a new President to resolve any of these issues.

[Rafael]

Many of those who live 3 hours from work do so because they want cheap homes and high paying jobs, some, if not many could get lower paying work near their homes.
I personally know someone who travels 100 miles and 3-4 hours to work, sometimes it takes him 5 hours to get home. He works in a high income area and lives in a low cost of living area. He could work where he lives and live well, but he wants more money than that. He can also afford to live in the neighborhood where he works. These people are a problem. It's one thing to have no choices, but many of these folks have choices and the rest of us are paying for their choices.

[Frankiarmz]

Many of those who live 3 hours from work do so because they want cheap homes and high paying jobs, some, if not many could get lower paying work near their homes.
I personally know someone who travels 100 miles and 3-4 hours to work, sometimes it takes him 5 hours to get home. He works in a high income area and lives in a low cost of living area. He could work where he lives and live well, but he wants more money than that. He can also afford to live in the neighborhood where he works. These people are a problem. It's one thing to have no choices, but many of these folks have choices and the rest of us are paying for their choices.

I don't know where or how to get the statistics so I can only go by personal experience. The folks I know work at jobs where they cannot transfer. They did not move far from their jobs to get cheaper homes but to get any home they could afford. The folks I know were barely getting by when gas was $1.50 a gallon and home heating fuel was $.89 a gallon. Now those same folks who have not gotten a raise have to pay three to five times more for gas, heating fuel and food. I myself like many Americans am retired, no prospect for a better paying job or moving closer to anything. Most people working or retired are on fixed income, have been on a fixed income and cannot budget for these outrageous price increases necessary to sustain their lives and demanded by oil companies foreign or american.

[Masterplumb]

Even Richard Milhouse Nixon in 1972 enacted many many ways to conserve fuel during the first energy crunch this great country of ours went through.
Jim Don

Why use his middle name?? The left doesn't want us to use Obama's middle name? :D:D

Richard Milhouse Nixon
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Ronald Wilson Reagan
Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Barrack Hussein Obama

[JimDon]

To Masterplumb:
Offensive to you middle name has now been edited out and will not be mentioned again. Thank you for your concern.
Jim

[Frankiarmz]

Why use his middle name?? The left doesn't want us to use Obama's middle name? :D:D

Richard Milhouse Nixon
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Ronald Wilson Reagan
Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Barrack Hussein Obama

As a person who thinks conservative and liberals are both wrong about everything, I don't care about obam's middle name or those of the dead presidents! I do care and am concerned with how many Americans will afford to drive their cars, heat their homes and feed their families NOW! Clearly neither Obama nor McCain will help this crisis. Truckers can't afford five dollar plus diesel fuel and many Americans can't afford everything else that took off as a result of foreign and American oil prices. We need price rollbacks and a chance to establish alternatives.

[Masterplumb]

To Masterplumb:
Offensive to you middle name has now been edited out and will not be mentioned again. Thank you for your concern.
Jim

It's not offensive to me, I actually think that we should use their middle name.

[VASandy]

The ONLY way to make a difference is to write your CONGRESSMAN and SENATOR and tell them it's time to put down the oil companies for excess profits. Profiteering during a time of war is and should be punishable by substantial fines. The only way to make a difference is to write your representatives and SAY IT! Make your voice heard! I wrote to Congressman Wolf today. The rest are next. And I'll KEEP writing until something gets done. The President is a tool of the oil companies. And the pharmaceutical companies. And others. So's your congressman and senator. That doesn't mean we can't speak up. It's our DUTY! Everyone here is always saying how proud they are to be an American. DO YOUR DUTY! Regardless of who is President, it is your Representative in the House and the Senate that will make the difference. Write them. Often.

[Rafael]

Frankie,
I dont know where you live. But I am in So California and am going on my personal experience and also some news articles I've read in the local papers over the years.
Some people have the 3-4 hour commutes out of their perceived necessity, others do it because they want to make city money and live in a semi-rural low cost area.

[Bob D.]

"Since the award of the bid a few months ago, and last week, unanticipated projected fuel costs have risen $1.2 million dollars. Not risen to $1.2 million risen by $1.2 million. Unfortunately for the company there is no clause for increased fuel costs to be added to the contract. "

Unfortunately for the company they have bidders who are not looking far enough ahead to include contingencies for costs increases such as this. How could anyone bid a long term project or one that is not scheduled to start until months later and not allow at least a best guess at what might happen with fuel prices (or copper for example) or include a clause in the contract that would cover the increase?


More on topic. Sad as it is for the trucking industry and all the independents everyone else is hurting too. For me there is no chance of taking mass transit as it doesn't go anywhere near where I need it to, at any time of the day. Last raise I got almost a year ago (and more) has been eaten up bu increased fuel prices. Between gasoline and fuel oil I'm spending almost double what I did 18 months ago. I only drive 350-400 miles a week and I shell out between $80 -90 per fill-up. My P/U is getting ~16.6/17.7 MPG and its been there all along for 55K miles ('05 F-150). I log my miles and fuel purchases every time. 18 months ago a fill-up ran about $45-50. Last time I got the oil tank topped of it was $585.00, these prices are taken their toll on me but we're getting by. I know there are plenty of people who are driving more miles/wk in vehicles that get worse mileage and their pay is less than mine, they are hurting for sure. And it's all a bunch of cr*p because we as a country should have been moving toward energy independence since the 70's. But as usual we let the lobbyist for oil and the auto manufacturers and the crooked politicians pull another fast one on us.

[Masterplumb]

The ONLY way to make a difference is to write your CONGRESSMAN and SENATOR and tell them it's time to put down the oil companies for excess profits. Profiteering during a time of war is and should be punishable by substantial fines. The only way to make a difference is to write your representatives and SAY IT! Make your voice heard! I wrote to Congressman Wolf today. The rest are next. And I'll KEEP writing until something gets done. The President is a tool of the oil companies. And the pharmaceutical companies. And others. So's your congressman and senator. That doesn't mean we can't speak up. It's our DUTY! Everyone here is always saying how proud they are to be an American. DO YOUR DUTY! Regardless of who is President, it is your Representative in the House and the Senate that will make the difference. Write them. Often.

Excess profits??? 9% is excessive? The government takes more then the oil companies profits. You are mistaken a modest profit percentage for volume.
Where is your proof of the accusations you make about Bush being a "tool of oil and pharmaceutical? I want to see hard proof? I bet you cant give it to me can you? You know why you cant, because there isn't any. If there was he would be impeached.

[Bob D.]

Frankie,
I don't know where you live. But I am in So California and am going on my personal experience and also some news articles I've read in the local papers over the years.
Some people have the 3-4 hour commutes out of their perceived necessity, others do it because they want to make city money and live in a semi-rural low cost area.

These are good points. We (the US in general) have (in the past) promoted development of rural America, clearing forests to build houses, shopping malls, new schools, etc. Just so John Doe with his wife and 2.2 kids could have their own chunk of ground. It all started after WWII. Urban sprawl has pushed peoples homes further away from where they work. The corner grocery store is gone, so now you have to drive to get a gallon of milk. For me the nearest super market or convenience store is a half gallon of gas away. So (this week) a round trip to get that Gal of milk costs $4.00 in gas.

Meanwhile our cities are dying from the inside out. There is no work there because all the corporations moved out to the burbs where the taxes were cheaper and the air was cleaner. Then later on they moved offshore and left it all (the taxes, the EPA, OSHA, etc.) behind. Hence the cities offer nothing to draw in people earning a decent wage, and the decay continues.

[cpw]

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/1146/big-government-responsible-for-high-gas-prices/
I am actually a big Ron Paul fan (and voted for him in the NY primary). He is unique among congresscritters in that he actually says what he believes without equivocation.

[oldslowchevy]

[quote=Masterplumb;149962]Excess profits??? 9% is excessive? The government takes more then the oil companies profits. You are mistaken a modest profit percentage for volume. [quote]


how do you get "record profits" at 9%, you dont, you can't.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11098458/

buy the way i postd this one just because i like the look on the guys face at $2.75, i would love to see it now.

[cpw]

Many of those who live 3 hours from work do so because they want cheap homes and high paying jobs, some, if not many could get lower paying work near their homes.
I personally know someone who travels 100 miles and 3-4 hours to work, sometimes it takes him 5 hours to get home. He works in a high income area and lives in a low cost of living area. He could work where he lives and live well, but he wants more money than that. He can also afford to live in the neighborhood where he works. These people are a problem. It's one thing to have no choices, but many of these folks have choices and the rest of us are paying for their choices.
I live in Northern Westchester because we can afford a house that is 2x as big with 3x as much land as we could in Southern Westchester. I have a 25-40 minute commute instead of 10-20 minutes. If my wife didn't want to be so close to the city I probably would have wanted to move to Putnam or Dutchess and taken the 50-60 minute commute instead to get the same house + land for less.

We actually live 100 miles from my wife's place of work, but she only goes in about once or twice a month and telecommutes the rest of the time. If you have the kind of job that allows it, it is really a good thing. She is able to stay home and make sure the kids are taken care of, and we do save lots of money on gas and all the expenses that really add up when you physically go to work (nicer work clothes, food, etc.).

[cpw]

how do you get "record profits" at 9%, you dont, you can't.
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=xom

Income Statement (http://finance.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NYSE:XOM) Quarterly
(Mar '08) Annual
(2007) Annual
(2006) Total Revenue116,854.00 404,552.00 377,635.00 Gross Profit24,221.00 86,264.00 83,809.00 Operating Income20,192.00 70,474.00 67,402.00 Net Income10,890.00 40,610.00 39,500.00

9.3%, 10.0%, 10.4%

They had a lower margin in Q1 2008 than they did full year 2007, but higher profit. You don't need huge margins when your revenue is $400,000,000,000.

Also remember, even ExxonMobil gets pushed around. Venezuala expropriated all of their holdings last year.

[Frankiarmz]

Frankie,
I dont know where you live. But I am in So California and am going on my personal experience and also some news articles I've read in the local papers over the years.
Some people have the 3-4 hour commutes out of their perceived necessity, others do it because they want to make city money and live in a semi-rural low cost area.

I bought my first house in upstate NY and commuted over fifty miles to The Bronx, NYC. I could not afford the price of a home or the property taxes on anything closer. That was twenty five years ago and I currently live in CT. I bought my current home nineteen year ago for $240,000 and last year it was valued at $690,000. My salary as a Telephone lineman topped out at $60,000 before I retired and now live on $25,000 plus my wife's salary. The folks I know work for employers like Verizon and various city and state jobs, their incomes have not gone up very much in the last ten years and no one I know purposely bought a house far from their job to save money or be cheap. They were forced to live far from their jobs because they could not afford anything closer. The trade off for living so far is a life wasted on the road driving instead of being with your family, money wasted on replacement cars (not new ones) repairs and gas! I estimate many millions of working people are in this predicament and now thanks to big oil and their insatiable greed these folks are facing financial ruin. You can continue to defend big oil's record profits as modest but they are going to destroy individuals and families and businesses. The products refined from oil are essential commodities and just because it is legal to keep raising prices does not mean it is morally right or economically sound for the stability of our country. Keep defending big oil, keep looking to blame and insult working and retired Americans on fixed incomes who simply cannot afford these increases but in the end we will suffer due not to their ignorance or political affiliation but because of the unconscionable decisions of a small group of people.

[Service Guy]

I bought my first house in upstate NY and commuted over fifty miles to The Bronx, NYC. I could not afford the price of a home or the property taxes on anything closer. That was twenty five years ago and I currently live in CT. I bought my current home nineteen year ago for $240,000 and last year it was valued at $690,000. My salary as a Telephone lineman topped out at $60,000 before I retired and now live on $25,000 plus my wife's salary. The folks I know work for employers like Verizon and various city and state jobs, their incomes have not gone up very much in the last ten years and no one I know purposely bought a house far from their job to save money or be cheap. They were forced to live far from their jobs because they could not afford anything closer. The trade off for living so far is a life wasted on the road driving instead of being with your family, money wasted on replacement cars (not new ones) repairs and gas! I estimate many millions of working people are in this predicament and now thanks to big oil and their insatiable greed these folks are facing financial ruin. You can continue to defend big oil's record profits as modest but they are going to destroy individuals and families and businesses. The products refined from oil are essential commodities and just because it is legal to keep raising prices does not mean it is morally right or economically sound for the stability of our country. Keep defending big oil, keep looking to blame and insult working and retired Americans on fixed incomes who simply cannot afford these increases but in the end we will suffer due not to their ignorance or political affiliation but because of the unconscionable decisions of a small group of people.

What is your complaining supposed to accomplish? Do you really understand the whole economic picture so well? It seems everyone is an arm-chair expert on these subjects lately. This whole thread is full of BS spouting.

p.s.- not to be too abrasive, but lately all I hear is people everywhere arrogantly complaining as if they have all the answers. I know I certainly don't have the answers and I simply do my best to get by and adapt to the current economic conditions. The world isn't always the way we want it to be, there are over 6 billion of us now and we all have a different view of 'how it should be.'

[Frankiarmz]

What is your complaining supposed to accomplish? Do you really understand the whole economic picture so well? It seems everyone is an arm-chair expert on these subjects lately. This whole thread is full of BS spouting.

p.s.- not to be too abrasive, but lately all I hear is people everywhere arrogantly complaining as if they have all the answers. I know I certainly don't have the answers and I simply do my best to get by and adapt to the current economic conditions. The world isn't always the way we want it to be, there are over 6 billion of us now and we all have a different view of 'how it should be.'

I'm voicing my upset and outrage. I come from a generation of people who stood up, took action and changes things for the better. I put my job on the line many times and refused to work unsafe, I went on strike many months and got better benefits for myself and my family. It's only b.s. if you don't understand or don't believe You together with other people have the power, the right to change things that are wrong! This whole thread is not loaded with nonsense, it is full of history and personal experience of life and growth and the disgraceful situation we are currently in and must change. My upset is not out of arrogance, it is based on serious concern for a situation out of control which threatens my family and many others. Like yourself I do my best to adapt, but it is not enough and will not be enough if the oil keeps rising. Refuse to go quietly into the night, stand up, speak out and demand justice. Don't let anyone tell you it is unpatriotic to dissent, it is the highest honor to challenge authority and keep it honest. Stand up young man and don't ever sit still when you know something is wrong!

[oldslowchevy]

What is your complaining supposed to accomplish? Do you really understand the whole economic picture
so well? It seems everyone is an arm-chair expert on these subjects lately. This whole thread is full of BS spouting.


i by no means am an expert in anything, and no i really can not say that i understand "whole economic picture" well at all, but i do know that fuel prices have gone up 100% in just about a year and roughly 250% in the last 6 years. i also know that none of our wages have gone up that much if at all. i know it affects each and every person i talk to, every company i talk to, and every thing i buy now is 15-30% more than it was a year ago.

i am no expert that is for sure, i but i feel i could have a civil conversation here, and express how i feel, and learn from the people on this forum that have much more edumacation than i have, i also know that if i am talking about it then other people are talking about it and maybe though a group effort we could come up with some ideas that could lead to a possable soultion. i have always been told that if you aren't part of the soultion you are part of the problem.

you have bucked this thread right from the start, i have no idea why, you have written like you know better and the rest of are just stirring up troble, again i do not know why, you have added nothing positive to this thread, ....... why?

service guy, i told you before i have no intent on debating this with you, i know several people who are losing there jobs, homes. cars and families over gas prices and it sickens me, but you just saying they should charge more sickens me more.

[Service Guy]

I'm voicing my upset and outrage. I come from a generation of people who stood up, took action and changes things for the better. I put my job on the line many times and refused to work unsafe, I went on strike many months and got better benefits for myself and my family. It's only b.s. if you don't understand or don't believe You together with other people have the power, the right to change things that are wrong! This whole thread is not loaded with nonsense, it is full of history and personal experience of life and growth and the disgraceful situation we are currently in and must change. My upset is not out of arrogance, it is based on serious concern for a situation out of control which threatens my family and many others. Like yourself I do my best to adapt, but it is not enough and will not be enough if the oil keeps rising. Refuse to go quietly into the night, stand up, speak out and demand justice. Don't let anyone tell you it is unpatriotic to dissent, it is the highest honor to challenge authority and keep it honest. Stand up young man and don't ever sit still when you know something is wrong!

I respect your determination. I really don't know who or what is to blame, but I do know that we need to conserve, and look into alternative energy technologies. Sitting around crying about oil prices isn't accomplishing squat.

[oldslowchevy]

I respect your determination. I really don't know who or what is to blame, but I do know that we need to conserve, and look into alternative energy technologies.


now this a agree with:)

[Service Guy]

now this a agree with:)

We have some different views, but some the same. Sorry if I seem confrontational in this thread. I just represent a different opinion than many here. I like your posts, and keep them coming.

I apologize oldslow, I'll try to be more respectful of everyone's opinion from now on.:o:smile:

[oldslowchevy]

it is not a problem solong as the end of the day we can pat each other on the back and say job well done.

[Service Guy]

it is not a problem solong as the end of the day we can pat each other on the back and say job well done.

Yeah, some of my best friends are the ones that I respect enough to argue with.:D Then we all relax over a beer and laugh it off.:thumbup:

[Frankiarmz]

Yeah, some of my best friends are the ones that I respect enough to argue with.:D Then we all relax over a beer and laugh it off.:thumbup:

Once again my faith in this Forum and the folks who post here is reaffirmed. No hiding behind a keyboard and getting nasty. Extending respect, agreeing to disagree and showing class. :D

[Service Guy]

Once again my faith in this Forum and the folks who post here is reaffirmed. No hiding behind a keyboard and getting nasty. Extending respect, agreeing to disagree and showing class. :D

Thanks for not hating me.;) I had to say something though. It sometimes helps to have a 'devil's advocate' jump into the conversation to shed a different light in the subject. I am not saying who's right or wrong. I just think that we should be careful not to make quick judgments about complex global problems.
We ALL want a solution. Thats whats important. Imo, instead of fighting gas prices, we should be looking into alternative fuels, and ways to conserve. The best way to fight prices is to stop buying gas!!! I know its hurting truckers more than others, because they have to buy fuel for their jobs, but in the end the high fuel prices are necessary to motivate people to find alternatives.

Here is an example, please read this enlightening article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121276760051852173.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today

[DUNBAR PLUMBING]

BEAT HIS ***! :trash-him:

[tinmack]

It's simple. OPEC controls the production of enough oil in the world to effectively control the price. They decide what price to sell it for, if you dont like the price you dont have to buy it, but people buy it anyway. They will raise the price to the point where they can make the most money without destroying the world's economy because if they hurt the economy too much then nobody will be able to buy their oil.
This is just like a drug dealer, if they price the drugs too high then they will not sell much.
The problem with the oil market is that you have a monopoly(OPEC) that controls enough of the oil to dictate any price they want to charge. They do not have enough competition to effect their behavior.


Interesting idea, but so far this year, 37 percent of United States oil imports came from non-OPEC countries.

Perhaps the answer is a bit more complicated than that......

[Rafael]

True.
But OPEC has such a large control over the entire world's market. It doesn't matter where we get the oil, even if we got nothing from OPEC they could cut off the rest of the world which would cause the oil we get to go up in price since the demand for it would rise dramatically. That is why OPEC exists, they operate as a block and it gives them power.OPEC countries acting individually have little influence over the price of oil, together they are evil. In the US that is called a monopoly and is illegal in the US.

[tinmack]

OPEC produces 45 percent of the world's oil and 18 percent of its natural gas. They certainly exert influence, but with less than 50 percent output, they certainly don't fit the definition of a monopoly. Microsoft, who 10 years ago had 90 percent of the market, probably fits the definition much better.

[Frankiarmz]

We can keep debating whether or not big oil are good business people or terrorists ruining our economy and country, but my concern is the point at which most people simply won't have enough money to drive, keep warm, and eat! Maybe the concept of the "Road Warrior" movie is not that far off? Personally I've been bulking up in the event of a food shortage, if things get bad enough I'll start consuming defenseless neighbors. The big oil ceo's are safe, I don't want to load up on oily foods.:eek:

[tinmack]

if things get bad enough I'll start consuming defenseless neighbors. The big oil ceo's are safe, I don't want to load up on oily foods.:eek:

Keep an eye out for the neighbors that work out - might have leaner, tastier meat.

Then again, you might need fat for soap making or keeping a lamp lit if things really go Road Warrior-like....

Those in shape ones may not be quite a defenseless as well.

Either way, it's definitely a conundrum.:D

[Rafael]

They are certainly a monopoly since they have enough influence to control the price and availability of oil. If opec just says they are thinking about a 5% drop in production, without actually cutting production, the price of oil would skyrocket.
Fortunately, I believe the Saudis aren't as stupid as they look, they must realize that absurdly high oil prices will eventually destroy the worlds economy and then people will not be able to buy their oil, or alternatives will eventually take a huge chunk of their sales. These high prices wont last long, unless I am wrong and the Saudis are as stupid as they look.