Maybe it's just me...(Another Obama thread)

[Masterplumb]

How can anyone vote for this guy.


http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

[Aaron91]

As badly as Bush ****ed us all over, anyone would be an improvement.

This is America my friend, we have to right to vote for whoever we choose is right.

To judge a man's performance on his name, and name alone is ludacris.

[Masterplumb]

As badly as Bush ****ed us all over, anyone would be an improvement.

This is America my friend, we have to right to vote for whoever we choose is right.

To judge a man's performance on his name, and name alone is ludacris.

I see you did not watch more then 45 seconds of it. Why not go back and listen to his own words "my friend". It has nothing to do with Bush. In case you havent heard...BUSH IS NOT RUNNING. Go back and watch the rest.

[Aaron91]

I know Bush is not running, and I know that video has nothing to do with Bush.

I was just saying, Bush ****ed us over so badly, ANYBODY will be an improvement over him.

Take a chill pill.

[oldslowchevy]

i watched, and i agree, but i also think nomatter who goes in we all are royaly f####d.

[Masterplumb]

I know Bush is not running, and I know that video has nothing to do with Bush.

I was just saying, Bush ****ed us over so badly, ANYBODY will be an improvement over him.

Take a chill pill.

Sorry but I can't agree with you. I guess you were too young to remember the days of Jimmy Carter and 18% mortgage rates. Again its nothing to do with Bush, his name, being black or anything but what a man aspiring to be president of the most powerful nation believes.

[DuckButter]

I'm for McCain, have been since before he announced he was running.

His stand against the tobacco industry was all it took for me to at least have some degree of faith in him.

In conversation, the most common response I get from those planning to vote for Obama is "He's a black man, this country needs a change and maybe a black mans view will change us for the better."

OK, I'm perfectly fine with a black mans view, specifically a view that see's things from our point of view.
I definitely like his idea's, not because he's black, white....or purple.
I might vote for him next time around, but there is absolutely NO possible way this man has a fraction of the experience and overall knowledge on how to repair the mess our country has become both domestically and in foreign affairs...I don't care what color he is.
Simply voting for him because he's different is scary, he just doesn't have enough expereince to do more than campaign promises.

If you want to vote for someone just based on the fact that they're different, heck let's get Hugh Hefner to run.

Again. I like what Obama has to say, but then all campaigns are supposed to get you to like what they have to say.

McCain stood up against the tobacco industry, nearly lost his career to put a stop to the special interest and political payoffs to do the right thing for his country.
His proven track record there says it all for me.

Maybe in a few years Obama will be right for the job, but he just doesn't stand up to McCains legacy.

[DuckButter]

Or, I coulda just said this:

Sorry but I can't agree with you. I guess you were too young to remember the days of Jimmy Carter and 18% mortgage rates. Again its nothing to do with Bush, his name, being black or anything but what a man aspiring to be president of the most powerful nation believes.
:rolling-eyes:

[Frankiarmz]

Kevin Poulsen May 14, 2008 | 4:04:58 PMCategories: Election '08
Wondering who the filmmaker is behind the 13-minute attack video A Video Portrait of Barack Hussein Obama? So were we. Though the narrator identifies himself as "Lorne Baxter," and e-mails to the production company are answered by "Rodney Talmud," it turns out the man behind the video is a 28-year-old Christian television producer from North Carolina named Jason "Molotov" Mitchell, who has priors for inflammatory YouTubing.


Jason "Molotov" Mitchell is producer and host of the Christian television show Flamethrower.The video, you'll recall, has supposedly racked up a million-and-a-half views on the conservative-leaning Eyeblast.tv. Among other things, it regurgitates the false viral e-mail claim that Obama refuses to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem, and claims that the Democratic candidate has been a disciple of racism, Marxism, quasi-Christianity, Islam and anti-Semitism.

"When we are at war with Islamic terrorism, can Americans elect a man with not one, not two, but three Islamic names?" the video poses.

The viral video provides a rare opportunity to examine the source of a pseudonomous internet political smear, the type of which is widely expected to play a role in November's presidential election. Recent press reports have shown that such attacks have already gained traction with some white voters, who erroneously believe that Obama is a Muslim, based on internet chain letters making the claim.


The video was made by Mitchell's company, Illuminati Pictures. Mitchell is former wedding videographer who now produces and hosts a weekly Christian television show called Flamethrower, which began airing on the satellite network Faith TV last October.

A round-table show featuring Mitchell and three other Christian panelists, Flamethrower is best known for a segment that never aired. Produced in January, Mitchell's video Making Mohammed Cookies! shows a chef, wearing Islamic headdress, baking a cookie in the shape of the Muslim prophet. He's interrupted at one point by his roommate, whom he shoots with a handgun while yelling, "Jew!"

Faith TV refused to broadcast the video, setting off controversy with some conservatives. Mitchell subsequently put a portion of the video on YouTube.


"He tamed the show down a lot after that," says Faith TV vice president Mark MacGregor. "I told him we're not going to air that, and if he keeps doing that kind of thing we're not going to air him at all.... I felt like we could reach the Muslim community through a loving tone."

Always good to know who is behind these lies, the lowlife won't even use his real name. I doubt Obama will make good on getting the troops out or turning the economy around but I'm willing to give him my vote rather than have McCain keep us in Iraq. Regarding rev. wright and the nasty stuff he says, as a white man I don't know what it's like to "drive while black" be denied employment or housing because of the color of my skin or be dragged while chained behind a pickup until my head is torn off. Must get blacks real mad to hear those words "All Men are Created Equal" and know those words are not being lived up to by good Americans everywhere. We need to get beyond all this racism and ignorance. Bush and his cronies along with the previous administration helped drive our beautiful country into the ground. We spent a trillion dollars and lost good Americans in that ---- hole called iraq. What chance do we have to survive with the price of gas, diesel, heating fuel and food? We are screwed real bad and need a miracle at this point. Obama may not be that miracle but McCain dam sure isn't. the conservative are still trying to convince us that if we allow big oil to drill here in the USA all our problems will be solved. All that will happen is that big oil will make greater profits and keep pulling in billions. Pass some laws and reign in these people who are destroying our way of life!

[Masterplumb]

Duck I actually disagree with you about something :eek:.

you say you like what he has to say... but what has he said? Change, hope.....Hope, change..........

Or that first he says he can't disown his "reverend" and then he disowns him?

Or that he says he won't wear the flag pin on his lapel, and then he does when he catches slack?

Or where he calls his grandmother a "typical white person"?

Or when he says Iran, Cuba, Venezuala are not big threats to us, then 2 days later he says he didn't say that?

Or when he didnt know the difference between memorial day and veterans day?

When he said Don Imus should be fired for saying hateful things(Nappy headed ho's) (But God Damn America, America invented the HIV virus for population control of colored people, and we deserved 9-11-01) from his reverend was ok???

When he associates with un-repentant terrorist Bill Ayers?

Or that he's friends with one of the biggest Hamas financiers?

That in one of his campaign headquaters theres a picture of Che Guevera?

I can go on and on but my hands are getting tired.

Everyone has a right to vote for whoever they want as someone pointed out to me but he is not right for the job now, 2012, 2016 or ever.

[DuckButter]

Politics and religion...always speak with a mild manner.
I DO like what he has to say, despite the fact that they are generic campaign slogans...read what I typed!

I agree, just not up to hearing any backlash for being an Obama basher.

[DuckButter]

Again. I like what Obama has to say, but then all campaigns are supposed to get you to like what they have to say.

mmmmmmkay?

[Masterplumb]

Kevin Poulsen May 14, 2008 | 4:04:58 PMCategories: Election '08
Wondering who the filmmaker is behind the 13-minute attack video A Video Portrait of Barack Hussein Obama? So were we. Though the narrator identifies himself as "Lorne Baxter," and e-mails to the production company are answered by "Rodney Talmud," it turns out the man behind the video is a 28-year-old Christian television producer from North Carolina named Jason "Molotov" Mitchell, who has priors for inflammatory YouTubing.


Jason "Molotov" Mitchell is producer and host of the Christian television show Flamethrower.The video, you'll recall, has supposedly racked up a million-and-a-half views on the conservative-leaning Eyeblast.tv. Among other things, it regurgitates the false viral e-mail claim that Obama refuses to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem, and claims that the Democratic candidate has been a disciple of racism, Marxism, quasi-Christianity, Islam and anti-Semitism.

"When we are at war with Islamic terrorism, can Americans elect a man with not one, not two, but three Islamic names?" the video poses.

The viral video provides a rare opportunity to examine the source of a pseudonomous internet political smear, the type of which is widely expected to play a role in November's presidential election. Recent press reports have shown that such attacks have already gained traction with some white voters, who erroneously believe that Obama is a Muslim, based on internet chain letters making the claim.


The video was made by Mitchell's company, Illuminati Pictures. Mitchell is former wedding videographer who now produces and hosts a weekly Christian television show called Flamethrower, which began airing on the satellite network Faith TV last October.

A round-table show featuring Mitchell and three other Christian panelists, Flamethrower is best known for a segment that never aired. Produced in January, Mitchell's video Making Mohammed Cookies! shows a chef, wearing Islamic headdress, baking a cookie in the shape of the Muslim prophet. He's interrupted at one point by his roommate, whom he shoots with a handgun while yelling, "Jew!"

Faith TV refused to broadcast the video, setting off controversy with some conservatives. Mitchell subsequently put a portion of the video on YouTube.


"He tamed the show down a lot after that," says Faith TV vice president Mark MacGregor. "I told him we're not going to air that, and if he keeps doing that kind of thing we're not going to air him at all.... I felt like we could reach the Muslim community through a loving tone."

Always good to know who is behind these lies, the lowlife won't even use his real name. I doubt Obama will make good on getting the troops out or turning the economy around but I'm willing to give him my vote rather than have McCain keep us in Iraq. Regarding rev. wright and the nasty stuff he says, as a white man I don't know what it's like to "drive while black" be denied employment or housing because of the color of my skin or be dragged while chained behind a pickup until my head is torn off. Must get blacks real mad to hear those words "All Men are Created Equal" and know those words are not being lived up to by good Americans everywhere. We need to get beyond all this racism and ignorance. Bush and his cronies along with the previous administration helped drive our beautiful country into the ground. We spent a trillion dollars and lost good Americans in that ---- hole called iraq. What chance do we have to survive with the price of gas, diesel, heating fuel and food? We are screwed real bad and need a miracle at this point. Obama may not be that miracle but McCain dam sure isn't. the conservative are still trying to convince us that if we allow big oil to drill here in the USA all our problems will be solved. All that will happen is that big oil will make greater profits and keep pulling in billions. Pass some laws and reign in these people who are destroying our way of life!

The video shows Obama in his own words contradicting himself too, I guess you missed that part.

I am not a prejudice person never have never will be. I may not know what its like to be denied employment for being black or driving while black as you say but when my family immigrated here from Italy at the turn of the 20th century they were discriminated against as well. But my ancestors worked through all the b.s. There were no special programs for them. We never owned any slaves. So tell me why I would owe someone something just because there skin is darker then mine? Why do some people get extra points on a civil service job because of their color? Why would someone get more financial aide for college because of the color of there skin? I dont get it, Im not prejudice, never owned slaves, but I owe someone something or should feel someone elses pain because of things that happened that my family and myself had nothing to do with? In my opinion affirmative action is racism in itself. It is also a violation of the 14th ammendment, as well as a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. :mad:

[Frankiarmz]

The video shows Obama in his own words contradicting himself too, I guess you missed that part.

I am not a prejudice person never have never will be. I may not know what its like to be denied employment for being black or driving while black as you say but when my family immigrated here from Italy at the turn of the 20th century they were discriminated against as well. But my ancestors worked through all the b.s. There were no special programs for them. We never owned any slaves. So tell me why I would owe someone something just because there skin is darker then mine? Why do some people get extra points on a civil service job because of there color? Why would someone get more financial aide for college because of the color of there skin? I dont get it, Im not prejudice, never owned slaves, but I owe someone something or should feel someone elses pain because of things that happened that my family and myself had nothing to do with? In my opinion affirmative action is racism in itself. It is also a violation of the 14th ammendment, as well as a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. :mad:

I'll explain it to you just like I explained it to my teenage daughter. When I was a young man trying to get into the Electrical workers Union and Plumbers Union in NYC back in 71' Hundreds of blacks were allowed to jump the list and my chances of getting those spots were gone. I explained to my daughter that while we are taught two wrongs don't make a right in this case blacks have been so screwed over for so many years that generation upon generation were held back unfairly. You see, unlike you and me (also Italian American) blacks can't blend in because of their skin color. Something had to be done to give them a fighting chance and that something was EEOC. People who scored higher on tests and were better qualified for jobs did not get them in order to right some wrongs. Lousy way to make things right but if it allowed hard working black folks to get better paying jobs and put their kids through college it was worth it! Our country had to break the cycle of racism and open up the jobs to those who had been denied for too long. So you see you and me and the rest of white America is paying for all the racist bums who didn't have the decency to live by those words "All Men are Created Equal". You really don't like this reverse discrimination? Then the next time you hear a racist remark open up your mouth and speak out, break the pattern of hate that got us in this mess! All of a sudden we lost the right to speak our minds without being called un American, so millions kept quiet while sean hannity and bill oreilly told us how to behave. A trillion dollars wasted in iraq and thousands of brave Americans dead, with no end in sight. Count me as a NO for this kind of democracy. Drop a bomb, drop two or three but get our troops back home and secure Our borders.

[Masterplumb]

I'll explain it to you just like I explained it to my teenage daughter. When I was a young man trying to get into the Electrical workers Union and Plumbers Union in NYC back in 71' Hundreds of blacks were allowed to jump the list and my chances of getting those spots were gone. I explained to my daughter that while we are taught two wrongs don't make a right in this case blacks have been so screwed over for so many years that generation upon generation were held back unfairly. You see, unlike you and me (also Italian American) blacks can't blend in because of their skin color. Something had to be done to give them a fighting chance and that something was EEOC. People who scored higher on tests and were better qualified for jobs did not get them in order to right some wrongs. Lousy way to make things right but if it allowed hard working black folks to get better paying jobs and put their kids through college it was worth it! Our country had to break the cycle of racism and open up the jobs to those who had been denied for too long. So you see you and me and the rest of white America is paying for all the racist bums who didn't have the decency to live by those words "All Men are Created Equal". You really don't like this reverse discrimination? Then the next time you hear a racist remark open up your mouth and speak out, break the pattern of hate that got us in this mess! All of a sudden we lost the right to speak our minds without being called un American, so millions kept quiet while sean hannity and bill oreilly told us how to behave. A trillion dollars wasted in iraq and thousands of brave Americans dead, with no end in sight. Count me as a NO for this kind of democracy. Drop a bomb, drop two or three but get our troops back home and secure Our borders.

You teach your kids the way you want and I'll teach mine the way I want. If you want to sell your kids out then you go ahead Franki. I wont sell my kids short like that. I teach mine to earn whatever you want and that there are no handouts, of course I'll always help out but they dont need to know that security is always there because I wont always be here.

I dont and won't get involved with someone who speaks racist comments, but dont forget, just as you and others preach this is America and we have the right to free speech as mean as it may seem.

I refuse to take blame for sommeone elses action. I only take responsibility for my actions. I dont owe anyone anything.

[Frankiarmz]

You teach your kids the way you want and I'll teach mine the way I want. If you want to sell your kids out then you go ahead Franki. I wont sell my kids short like that. I teach mine to earn whatever you want and that there are no handouts, of course I'll always help out but they dont need to know that security is always there because I wont always be here.

I dont and won't get involved with someone who speaks racist comments, but dont forget, just as you and others preach this is America and we have the right to free speech as mean as it may seem.

I refuse to take blame for sommeone elses action. I only take responsibility for my actions. I dont owe anyone anything.

I agree with most of what you said including the part about handouts. We wouldn't need handouts if we didn't have racists screwing things up with their pea brains. I will never sell my kids short, I tell them the truth as I see it and let them see racism and ignorance for what it is. God made all men and to insult and hold back some because of the color of their skin is an affront to God. I've got an uncle in FL who keeps sending me racist crap about obama. They have him dressed up like osama bin laden and compare his wife to a monkey, real brilliant stuff, I see it as embarassing to call yourself an American and behave like that. My wife and I both Italian Americans lost a child to a genetic illness, bad gene from her and bad gene from me. The result of too many of the same (Italian) people staying with their own kind. I came to believe that God in his wisdom planned for all races to come together as one someday. We are not there by a long shot, but I'd like to think we are getting a little closer every day. I'd rather have my daughters marry a hard working, faithful black man than a lazy, cheating Italian American. This may offend some of you but like the man said "this is America". I'll let you have the last word good or bad. Take care.

[Masterplumb]

I agree with most of what you said including the part about handouts. We wouldn't need handouts if we didn't have racists screwing things up with their pea brains. I will never sell my kids short, I tell them the truth as I see it and let them see racism and ignorance for what it is. God made all men and to insult and hold back some because of the color of their skin is an affront to God. I've got an uncle in FL who keeps sending me racist crap about obama. They have him dressed up like osama bin laden and compare his wife to a monkey, real brilliant stuff, I see it as embarassing to call yourself an American and behave like that. My wife and I both Italian Americans lost a child to a genetic illness, bad gene from her and bad gene from me. The result of too many of the same (Italian) people staying with their own kind. I came to believe that God in his wisdom planned for all races to come together as one someday. We are not there by a long shot, but I'd like to think we are getting a little closer every day. I'd rather have my daughters marry a hard working, faithful black man that a lazy, cheating Italian American. This may offend some of you but like the man said "this is America". I'll let you have the last word good or bad. Take care.

I cant disagree with what you say either. I just feel equality is equality is equality.

[DUNBAR]

I say...





Take it to Oprah!

[garager]

How can anyone vote for this guy.


http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

I have no intention on voting for him, never have never will. For the first time in my life, I will be voting for the Republican Party.

[cpw]

Aside from his policy positions, which I generally disagree with I didn't start out disliking the guy. At the beginning of the primary seasons, I would rather have had him win than Hillary (who I detest).

I'm not so sure now (of course it is too late). I think the thing that bothers me most is not that he has one kind of shady association with Bill Ayers or Rev. Wright, but that he has multiple. I do think some of the stuff that talk radio tries to tie him to is over the top (Father Pfleger who was a guest speaker at his church is way too tenuous a connection for me). The most damning one though is that his wife things American is "mean" and she has never been proud of her country in her adult life. I don't think that those things can easily be explained away, and I doubt that if this is the company he keeps he would think much different.

[DuckButter]

Who knows?
Maybe he'd be a good president for the 57 states...never know.

I forgot about this one, there's no way it was doctored:

YouTube - Obama Claims He's Visited 57 States (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws)

L A Times article on it:
Barack Obama wants to be president of these 57 United States | Top of the Ticket | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/05/barack-obama-wa.html)

George W's inability to pronounce the word "nuclear" bugged me a little, but we gotta draw the line somewhere.

[shup]

I don't normally talk politics on forums but I will say there are some good points on both sides.

My mother-in-law votes republican because her husband tells her to, My brother-in-law votes democrat because his wife tells him to. My wife votes with her heart and gut and I have to say I screwed up in MY opinion and voted for Bush last time. But still like McCain so far this time. It could change yet but right now am undecided.

My point is I think it good people have this talk to learn as long as they learn by reading and investigating it themselves.

shup

[Frankiarmz]

I agree that open discussion and exchange is good but when it comes down to policy and promises neither candidate will secure our borders. I don't know if obama can bring our troops home, and as for our economy what will it take to turn it around? I'm not happy with either of these guys. I'm sure as the election grows closer we will hear more of what they think will win votes, too bad they can't be held to those campaign promises.

[Rafael]

NOT voting for obama is a no-brainer.
Would you vote for someone who was a member of the KKK for 20 years? Then why would you vote obama?
The church he belonged to for 20 years is a Anti-White, Anti-semitic church. They hate whites and jews. There is no argument about it, it is a fact. Look at their website, listen to the sermons that have been given at their church. They have honored the White hating, jew hating louis farrakhan. Why would any church or group honor the racist farrakhan unless they agree with him? Why has obama never renounced the church's racism? He is a racist.

[oldslowchevy]

Think you know who this man is?

This possible President of the United States ?? Read Below and



ask yourselves, is this REALLY someone we can see as the



President of our great nation!!!!







Below are a few lines from Obama's books; In his words!



http://f309.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f759235%5fAJzIjkQAARSxSE8V1wW7qAMN SQk&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1 http://f309.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f759235%5fAJzIjkQAARSxSE8V1wW7qAMN SQk&pid=3&fid=Inbox&inline=1







From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'



From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'



From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'



From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'



From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'







And FINALLY the Most Damming one of ALL of them!!!







From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

[Frankiarmz]

NOT voting for obama is a no-brainer.
Would you vote for someone who was a member of the KKK for 20 years? Then why would you vote obama?
The church he belonged to for 20 years is a Anti-White, Anti-semitic church. They hate whites and jews. There is no argument about it, it is a fact. Look at their website, listen to the sermons that have been given at their church. They have honored the White hating, jew hating louis farrakhan. Why would any church or group honor the racist farrakhan unless they agree with him? Why has obama never renounced the church's racism? He is a racist.

You are entitled to your opinion, but since you asked a question I'll give you my answer. I will probably vote for obama unless mccain changes his mind on keeping us in iraq or securing our borders. They both are useless when it comes to securing our borders. I remember listening to a speech by farrakhan back in the 70's when he referred to whites as "that sick pale thing", without a doubt a racist. I think they like him or tolerate him because he is controversial, can motivate people and has some good in his message of hate. I know that may sound ridiculous but in between insulting whites and accusing jews he encourages blacks to better themselves and their situation. I don't like him and feel he could get the good message out without the poison of racism. Rev. wright stirs up his congregation and draws heat when he insults our country, but it is a country he served in uniform unlike many of his detractors. McCain has his own group of mental case supporters that bring him down like a rock. All I'm looking for is a president who will keep some of his campaign promises and do us some good unlike President Bush. I'm not blaming Bush for all the ills of our country but wasting a trillion dollars in iraq is sickminded, saying illegals are doing a great job here is insulting to all the out of work Americans. We need a change of direction for the better, not more of the same. If elected will obama steer us further into ruin? Will McCain waste more money and sacrifice more brave American lives? Seems that either way we lose. Why can't we have a candidate who will secure our borders, resolve the twenty million plus illegals living here, get us out of iraq and let Israel deal with iran, put a stop to this ethanol bull...t and undo the damage of NAFTA? Tall order which no one is going to fill.

[ToUtahNow]

It's funny I would have voted for Hillary over Obama but it is because months ago I said electing Obama would be like electing Jimmy Carter. Now it seems McCain is saying the same thing. The Carter years were the worst years of my life. It was illegal for an employer to give employees a raise (wage freeze), we waited an hour plus to buy gas, we were forced to buy on either an even day or an odd day depending on our plates and our mortgage rates were higher than what is considered a high credit card rate today. I am convinced Obama will bring us back to the same things.

Mark

[NHMaster3015]

Why have we raised the office of the President to near god like status. You could put a chimpanzee in the oval office and it would'nt make a difference if congress did'nt have their heads up their asses. It's not Bush and though I had no respect for the man it was'nt Clinton either. It's the boneheads in the senate and congress that have screwed been screwing us.

[NHMaster3015]

Please disregard the typo:D And figure it out for yourself:D

[Frankiarmz]

It's funny I would have voted for Hillary over Obama but it is because months ago I said electing Obama would be like electing Jimmy Carter. Now it seems McCain is saying the same thing. The Carter years were the worst years of my life. It was illegal for an employer to give employees a raise (wage freeze), we waited an hour plus to buy gas, we were forced to buy on either an even day or an odd day depending on our plates and our mortgage rates were higher than what is considered a high credit card rate today. I am convinced Obama will bring us back to the same things.

Mark

I remember those days and they were horrible, don't want to ever see them repeated. Yet today we are living another nightmare, go right ahead and buy gas without waiting on line just cough up five dollars a gallon! Feel free to try and get a raise, won't help you when we are seeing double digit inflation. I hate to think what this coming winter will bring because I can't afford five or six dollar heating oil. McCain can compare obama to carter all he wants, it is the failure of our most recent and current President that is freshest in our minds and wallets. Like I said they both offer little hope, I just think McCain offers the least potential for a good change but I would hate to be wrong! Can we really think that either candidate will make all these problems go away?

[oldslowchevy]

start collecting fire wood folks

[ToUtahNow]

I remember those days and they were horrible, don't want to ever see them repeated. Yet today we are living another nightmare, go right ahead and buy gas without waiting on line just cough up five dollars a gallon! Feel free to try and get a raise, won't help you when we are seeing double digit inflation. I hate to think what this coming winter will bring because I can't afford five or six dollar heating oil. McCain can compare obama to carter all he wants, it is the failure of our most recent and current President that is freshest in our minds and wallets. Like I said they both offer little hope, I just think McCain offers the least potential for a good change but I would hate to be wrong! Can we really think that either candidate will make all these problems go away?

I hate to disagree with you but the Bush economy makes the Carter years look like life in a third world country. During the Carter years you could not go to work if you were silly enough to miss your gas day or use it all driving to a distant job site. If you wanted a raise you had to quit your job and find a new one which paid better. If you were trying to buy a home you felt like you won the lottery if you found a loan at 13%. Carter turned the working class into the working poor. I was at first worried Bill Clinton would do the same thing but to my surprise Clinton was a moderate. Obama on the other hand is so far to the left he makes Hillary look like Rush Limbaugh.

Mark

[Frankiarmz]

start collecting fire wood folks

I called my town dump and said I was thinking about getting a wood burning stove and the guy laughed, "You and everyone else"! Good idea but wood is gonna get real scarce, tree service guys used to glady dump logs just to get rid of them but those days are over. There just ain't no way out or around this problem. Pellet stove owners are in for a real surprise, price and availabiltiy wise. Only folks who will do well are those with a forest in their back yard.

[Frankiarmz]

I hate to disagree with you but the Bush economy makes the Carter years look like life in a third world country. During the Carter years you could not go to work if you were silly enough to miss your gas day or use it all driving to a distant job site. If you wanted a raise you had to quit your job and find a new one which paid better. If you were trying to buy a home you felt like you won the lottery if you found a loan at 13%. Carter turned the working class into the working poor. I was at first worried Bill Clinton would do the same thing but to my surprise Clinton was a moderate. Obama on the other hand is so far to the left he makes Hillary look like Rush Limbaugh.

Mark

You could be right! I knew guys who got mortgages back then at 17%. Still we haven't begun to feel the damage of five dollar gas and heating oil. There are folks right now who are out of work and can't afford the gas to go and look for a job, odd or even day. The situation is bad regardless of who gets in, we are in serious trouble.

[Masterplumb]

I remember listening to a speech by farrakhan back in the 70's when he referred to whites as "that sick pale thing", without a doubt a racist. I think they like him or tolerate him because he is controversial, can motivate people and has some good in his message of hate. I know that may sound ridiculous but in between insulting whites and accusing jews he encourages blacks to better themselves and their situation. I don't like him and feel he could get the good message out without the poison of racism. Rev. wright stirs up his congregation and draws heat when he insults our country, but it is a country he served in uniform unlike many of his detractors. .

"Good in his message of hate"

So hatred based on ones skin color is ok as long as it's hatred towards the white man?

I see you are sensitive towards minorities and that is cool but don't be so blind to think that its justified hatred, because it's not. Hatred is hatred no matter how you spin it.

" Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. " (MLK I have a dream)

[cpw]

I called my town dump and said I was thinking about getting a wood burning stove and the guy laughed, "You and everyone else"! Good idea but wood is gonna get real scarce, tree service guys used to glady dump logs just to get rid of them but those days are over. There just ain't no way out or around this problem. Pellet stove owners are in for a real surprise, price and availabiltiy wise. Only folks who will do well are those with a forest in their back yard.
Unless you live in a town that doesn't let you cut down your own darn trees without a permit!

[DUNBAR]

And I'll tell you why:



It's not going to happen.......because you can drumroll the poor people syndrome to death.....and you will not be speaking for the majority.....just the minority.


People will line the corridors all the way to the streets to keep anyone with the name Hussein from running the United States.


It's a shoe in for McCain......he'll be blamed for all the problems and serve one term....out the door you go.


No matter how badly people think Bush is running the roost........no one wants a party that welcomes terrorism and attacks on US soil.

Proof of that is asking troops to come back before completing a mission. Save your armchair remarks for the face of a soldier.....and give them your line of **** why YOU think they belong somewhere else.

[Frankiarmz]

"Good in his message of hate"

So hatred based on ones skin color is ok as long as it's hatred towards the white man?

I see you are sensitive towards minorities and that is cool but don't be so blind to think that its justified hatred, because it's not. Hatred is hatred no matter how you spin it.

" Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. " (MLK I have a dream)




I am sensitive to the plight of minorities. I said there was "some good in his message of hate", and that's why I felt the black community tolerates him. I did not say I agree with him in the least! I agree that hate is hate wheter it's white on black or the other way around. Racists both black and white are having a field day hating eachother rather than pulling together and working to fix our country. That's why I got upset last night with the twisted representation of obama. He has his morons and McCain has his, now what about the mess we are in? Who will get us out of iraq, secure our borders and fix our economy and fuel problems? Let's stop dressing obama to look like bin laden and assuming that he is a puppet for farrakhan. What are the merits of both these candidates? Personally I don't think either offers anything.

[cpw]

One of the big things you mention are our gas price problems. From a policy perspective I can only see Obama making them worse.

He buys all the way into global warming, and the Democrat solution basically seems to be to tax energy usage. Not going to make things cheaper.

Oil companies are making money now, so they want to explore so they can make more of that money. The Democrat solution is to enact a windfall profit tax. Not going to encourage investment.

We have a dependence on foreign oil. The Democrat's solution is to prevent us from drilling in our own country and hope that some technology will save us and create "greeen jobs". That might eventually work, but it isn't going to give us any price relief any time soon. This only helps OPEC and others. The Chinese are drilling off the coast of Florida (they have an agreement with Cuba), but the US is not.

We need to explore our continental shelf, ANWR, and other coastal areas. We also need to build the appropriate energy structure right here. We don't have new refineries. We burn our coal and natural gas for electricity, when we can use nuclear power instead; and save the coal for converting to gasoline and the natural gas for heating our homes.

[Masterplumb]

I am sensitive to the plight of minorities. I said there was "some good in his message of hate", and that's why I felt the black community tolerates him. I did not say I agree with him in the least! I agree that hate is hate wheter it's white on black or the other way around. Racists both black and white are having a field day hating eachother rather than pulling together and working to fix our country. That's why I got upset last night with the twisted representation of obama. He has his morons and McCain has his, now what about the mess we are in? Who will get us out of iraq, secure our borders and fix our economy and fuel problems? Let's stop dressing obama to look like bin laden and assuming that he is a puppet for farrakhan. What are the merits of both these candidates? Personally I don't think either offers anything.

Twisted representation of Obama? Thats funny. If the shoe fits...wear it.

Tell me what good has come out in his message of hate?

[JimDon]

"Oil companies are making money now, so they want to explore so they can make more of that money."

Oil companies have been making profits since 1972 when the first oil crunch hit. Look up their stock histories to see it.

Profit is the amount of money after you've paid off all your expenses including costs for R&D and oil exploration. The larger profits simply mean there is more cash going back to investors as dividends. Doesn't mean they plow that profit back into exploration. Won't happen. Would not keep their investors happy. And who are investors? Most are not you and me. Investors are usually insiders (read oil company executives) who buy massive amounts of stock for themselves and their relatives in order to hold and maintain control of the company. Why do you think companies like Exxon-Mobil have embarked on a major plan to re-purchase shares of their stock during the last eight years?????? Take a trip down memory lane and read about the U.S. government's break-up of the Standard Oil Trust in 1911. BTW, the merger of Exxon and Mobil a number of years ago was just a reinvention of the Standard Oil Trust that was originally broken up. Exxon and Mobil were both part of Rockefeller's monopoly.

Now for some light reading:


“As observed over the last few years and as projected well into the future, the most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity. The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry. Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins, and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline.”
--Internal Texaco document, March 7, 1996
“A senior energy analyst at the recent API (American Petroleum Institute) convention warned that if the U.S. petroleum industry doesn’t reduce its refining capacity, it will never see any substantial increase in refining margins…However, refining utilization has been rising, sustaining high levels of operations, thereby keeping prices low.”
--Internal Chevron document, November 30, 1995
Excerpts from The Oil Industry, Gas Supply and Refinery Capacity: More Than Meets the Eye (PDF), a 2001 investigative report by Senator Wyden of Oregon outlining how, over a period of ten years, Big Oil companies orchestrated the current crisis in oil prices.

The oil industry and its allies would have the public believe that insufficient refining capacity, restrictive environmental standards, growing gasoline demand and OPEC production cutbacks are the primary reasons for the current oil and gas supply problem.

However, the record shows – supported by documents I have obtained – that . . . major oil companies pursued efforts to curtail refinery capacity as a strategy for improving profit margins; that competing oil companies worked together to subvert supply; that refinery closures inhibited supply; and that oil companies are reaping record profits, yet may benefit from a proposed national energy policy that would offer financial incentives to expand refinery capacity. [!!!]

* * *

[T]he nation’s major oil suppliers have set out in a strategic effort to orchestrate a financial triple play, a coordinated effort that would reduce supply, raise prices at the pump and relax environmental regulations. Unfortunately, in each case, it is the consumer who takes the hit.

While the documents target activity on the West Coast and refinery closings in 11 states, they point to practices with significant national ramifications. The companies involved are national companies that operate in multiple states. In addition, gas and oil is a fungible commodity and the amount of capacity that has been taken offline is significant enough to affect national markets.
In his report, Senator Wyden made the following findings (abbreviated):

FINDING 1: Oil Companies Articulated their “Need” to Reduce Oil and Gas Supply to Increase Prices and Grow Profit Margins

Not only did the oil companies view excess refining capacity as a financial liability, they openly suggested that eliminating the excess capacity and tightening supply would help improve their bottom line.

[D]ocuments show that oil companies had the intent and motive to hamstring supply and reduce refining capacity. Subsequent events show that they acted [based on that intent].
FINDING 2: Oil Company Competitors Planned Opportunities to Subvert Oil and Gas Supply . . .

“ARCO represents an important part of Tosco=s business. We want to do everything we can to nurture this important business relationship and make sure it keeps up the tradition of being mutually beneficial.”
--Thank you note to ARCO Exec. VP James A. Middleton from Tosco CEO Thomas O’Malley, April 25, 1994
“… explore whether or not there was any mutual benefit, any mutual interest, any profit for both ARCO and Tosco to find a way to have ARCO purchase or Tosco sell CARB [cleaner burning California Air Resources Board] gasoline to ARCO, recognizing that the agreement that was in place at that time did not provide for the supply of CARB gasoline.”
--Summary of Deposition of William C. Rusnack, President of ARCO Products Co., taken May 15, 1997
“And he, as I recall, confirmed their interest …and if we can reach a commercial agreement with them, that he felt, you know, this could change some of their investment decisions or change investment decisions of others on supplying CARB gasoline.”
--Summary of Deposition of Cecil Blackwell, Senior Chevron Official, taken February 19, 1997

* * *

[M]ajor oil and gas companies supplying CARB gas to the California market entered into 44 supply-sharing agreements . . . to control the quantity of CARB gas on the market, reduce efforts to expand CARB refining capacity, limit imports of CARB gas and discourage excess CARB gas from being sold on the spot market to independent purchasers.

Exxon, ARCO, Chevron, Shell, Texaco, Tosco and Unocal all entered into such supply-sharing agreements with at least one of their competitors.

* * *

In February 1993, Mobil, Texaco and Chevron (with the financial support of Exxon) filed a lawsuit to overturn the small refiners’ exemption to the CARB gas program, reducing the ability of small refiners to compete in the CARB gas market.

* * *

“If Powerine re-starts and gets the small refiner exemption, I believe the CARB market premium will be impacted. Could be as much as 2-3 cpg (cents per gallon)…The re-start of Powerine, which results in 20-25 TBD (thousand barrels per day) of gasoline supply . . . could . . . effectively set the CARB premium a couple of cpg lower . . . Needless to say, we would all like to see Powerine stay down. Full court press is warranted in this case.”
--Internal Mobil Corp. E-mail regarding Powerine refinery, February 6, 1996

The Powerine Oil Company refinery closed in 1995.
FINDING 3: Closing Refineries: Oil Companies Act to Inhibit Supply
Since 1995, 24 refineries have closed, including refineries in California, Illinois, Arizona, Oklahoma, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Michigan and Washington (the Tosco refinery has subsequently reopened), taking nearly 830,000 barrels a day of refining capacity offline. While capacity at some existing refineries expanded during this time, the fact is that more capacity would exist if these refineries were still operating.
FINDING 4: Record Profits: Oil Companies Reap Benefit of Higher Prices at Pump

Despite complaints indicting the cost of environmental compliance and manufacturing “boutique” fuels, in the [year] 2000 the oil and gas industry enjoyed record profits that reflect record gas prices.

According to Texaco’s 2000 Annual Report, the company’s production steadily decreased from 1998 to 2000, yet its net income more than quadrupled during the same period – with Texaco posting well above $2.4 billion in net income in 2000.

Among these four companies alone [Texaco, Chevron, ExxonMobil, and BP Amoco], profits for the year 2000 increased by over $22 billion dollars in one year. In light of these substantial profits, oil industry claims that they cannot afford to comply with environmental regulations or expand their refining capacity lack credibility.
FINDING 5: National Energy Policy Incentivizes Oil Companies to Expand Refinery Capacity
The Bush administration’s National Energy Policy, released in May, points to lagging profit margins and costly environmental regulations during the past decade as the reason for lost refinery capacity. The report also states that, “excess capacity may have deterred some new capacity investments in the past,” and that “more recently, other factors, such as regulations, have deterred investments.” . . .

[Bush's recommended policies] will reward the same oil companies who perpetuated the gasoline supply crunch, [who already enjoy] record profits because of their actions, [with] even higher profits by recognizing the cost savings of relaxed environmental standards.

As a result, oil and gas profits would continue to rise, the public would be saddled with the costs of dirtier air, and consumers would remain unprotected from high gas prices.


Interesting, very interesting,
Jim Don

[ToUtahNow]

Oil companies work on a 9% profit, McDonald's works on a 12% profit and Microsoft works on a 29% profit. I'm wondering how many of us would want our profit margin controlled by someone else?

Mark

[Rafael]

Why can't we have a candidate who will secure our borders, resolve the twenty million plus illegals living here, get us out of iraq and let Israel deal with iran, put a stop to this ethanol bull...t and undo the damage of NAFTA? Tall order which no one is going to fill.

Borders? The dems are looking towards illegals as future voters, the dems wont seal the borders. The reps wont do anything because the economy will get hammered without some cheap labor. There are plenty of americans who would do the work, the problem is that there are not enough americans to do the work.

Iraq? Neither dems nor reps have the political will to risk what could happen if we pull out quickly(Less than a few years).

Let Israel deal with Iran? Watch the price of oil go through the roof if that happens, Iran keeps pushing their luck so it may happen sooner than later. Personally, I think it would be a good thing because it would scare the arab world into keeping their mouths shut. I believe our handcuffing the Israelis from defending themselves causes more problems than it prevents.

Ethanol? Nafta? Nobody will be making any changes to the status quo on these items.

[Frankiarmz]

Oil companies work on a 9% profit, McDonald's works on a 12% profit and Microsoft works on a 29% profit. I'm wondering how many of us would want our profit margin controlled by someone else?

Mark

I can appreciate your defense of our basic rights and incentives regarding work and profit, however in this case there is a difference because big oil's right to make a profit is threatening the stability of our economy. I think it is a matter of national defense not economics. We don't have to eat at McDonalds and we don't have to do business with Microsoft, but we sure as hell need oil to survive. I don't know how our government would go about controlling the damage done by speculators on the stock market, maybe if the national oil reserves were somehow opened and the market got weak it would hurt the investors enough to lower the price. I still don't think most people understand the nature of this crisis. Ask yourself if most working folks who are basically on fixed incomes as are retired folks, can afford to pay for these price increases at the pump, at the food store and to heat their homes? I say no and in the best interest of our country big oil must be regulated in such a way that truckers can haul goods, people can commute to work, feed their families and heat their homes. What did we accomplish by spending a trillion dollars and losing thousands of brave Americans in iraq if we allow our own country to fall?

[Frankiarmz]

Borders? The dems are looking towards illegals as future voters, the dems wont seal the borders. The reps wont do anything because the economy will get hammered without some cheap labor. There are plenty of americans who would do the work, the problem is that there are not enough americans to do the work.

Iraq? Neither dems nor reps have the political will to risk what could happen if we pull out quickly(Less than a few years).

Let Israel deal with Iran? Watch the price of oil go through the roof if that happens, Iran keeps pushing their luck so it may happen sooner than later. Personally, I think it would be a good thing because it would scare the arab world into keeping their mouths shut. I believe our handcuffing the Israelis from defending themselves causes more problems than it prevents.

Ethanol? Nafta? Nobody will be making any changes to the status quo on these items.

Agree, Agree, Agree, all they way. Sadly in my opinion this all adds up to the continuing decline of the once strong USA. One thing I'm not sure of is the cheap labor and not enough Americans to do the work theory. I think we might have enough American workers if the pay was sufficient to cover their expenses, as far as hammering the economy if we didn't lose all those jobs to the third world and illegals to begin with maybe we could afford the higher wages? I do agree that with the way things are now it would just be another nail in our economic coffin. Dems and republicans offer us nothing as I see it.

[JimDon]

Mcdonald's net in 07-- $23 B
06-- $21 B
05-- $20 B
04-- $19 B
03-- $17 B

Exxon Mobil's net in 07 -- $171 B

Now for the math, 12% of Mc's 23 B would get you about $2,640,000,000

While 9% of Exxon Mobil's $171 Billion would get you $15,453,000,000

Maybe it's just me, but:
I think I'll take the 9% every time.

Jim Don


P.S. Like Frankiarmz said, nobody has to eat at Mc's and nobody has to buy software created by Gates there are other programs out there and who says you have to have a computer!

[ToUtahNow]

Mcdonald's net in 07-- $23 B
06-- $21 B
05-- $20 B
04-- $19 B
03-- $17 B

Exxon Mobil's net in 07 -- $171 B

Now for the math, 12% of Mc's 23 B would get you about $2,640,000,000

While 9% of Exxon Mobil's $171 Billion would get you $15,453,000,000

Maybe it's just me, but:
I think I'll take the 9% every time.

Jim Don


P.S. Like Frankiarmz said, nobody has to eat at Mc's and nobody has to buy software created by Gates there are other programs out there and who says you have to have a computer!

So are you being critical of McDonalds for not selling enough product or Exxon for selling too much product? Imagine if there were as many oil companies as there were fast food joints. It seems 9% would not even be close in such a market.

Mark

[Masterplumb]

Gee I wonder how this thread got off topic about Obama, his associations, his beliefs & his wifes beliefs. Thats how they do it, they just blame something on Bush and then change the subject to another topic.

[JimDon]

Quote: "It seems 9% would not even be close in such a market."

Thank you Mark, you just validated my entire argument.

Jim Don

[JimDon]

"Gee I wonder how this thread got off topic about Obama, his associations, his beliefs & his wifes beliefs. Thats how they do it, they just blame something on Bush and then change the subject to another topic."


Re-read Post No. 39 for the answer.

Jim

[ToUtahNow]

Quote: "It seems 9% would not even be close in such a market."

Thank you Mark, you just validated my entire argument.

Jim Don

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. The percentage of profit would increase with the decrease of product sales.

Mark

[DuckButter]

Oil companies work on a 9% profit, McDonald's works on a 12% profit and Microsoft works on a 29% profit. I'm wondering how many of us would want our profit margin controlled by someone else?

Mark
The U.S. consumes over 388 milion gallons of gasoline per day, and that only accounts for the 19 gallons per 42 gallon barrel of crude that goes to gasoline.
I don't really know what percentage gas stations pay per gallon, so lets assume maybe $3 a gallon.
Thats a total of $1,164,000,000 in sales per DAY not including front end gas station profits. (1.1 billion)
9% of that comes to $104,760,000 a day in profits.

Microsoft surpassed $50 billion for the year 07 in TOTAL sales.
At 29% for the year, that amounts to just under $15 billion for the total year at 29%, versus $38.3 billion profits for the oil industry at 9% for the year.

Simple percentages don't do the reality justice.

[DuckButter]

My point in mentioning those figures...it's one thing to tell the local coffee shop they're charging too much.
It's another thing altogether when the oil industry is profitting with such vast margins at the potential expense of our way of life.

As for Microsoft, I just got Vista...very disappointed...getting MAC from here on in.

[DuckButter]

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. The percentage of profit would increase with the decrease of product sales.

Mark
Apparently I missed your point also.
Your dead on...there must be consideration that there's a point where profitability becomes a monopoly so overpowering that we are no longer a democracy.

[Frankiarmz]

Twisted representation of Obama? Thats funny. If the shoe fits...wear it.

Tell me what good has come out in his message of hate?

Sorry I missed this post or I would have responded sooner. Nothing funny about the lies and misrepresentations. I agree that to point out things he himself actually said is a fair way to proceed. I am opposed to all the lies and while I said I would most likely vote for obama, all McCain has to do to get my vote is either agree to secure our borders, deal with the illegals, get our troops back home or do something to fix or economy. Regarding the messages of hate and any good that comes from them, I'm sure if he got any of the people listening to quit doing drugs, drinking or committing crimes and lead more responsible lives then some good came out of the hate. We can talk about this all you want, I heard the hate and I believe that buried in there some good was achieved. I do not condone or endorse the hate from anyone black or white and what I said and I'll repeat myself is that I think the black community tolerates him for the reasons I mentioned. Do you know we still have scholars trying to prove that blacks are not as smart as whites? There is racism on both sides of this campaign and it is sickening to me, it should be sickening to every decent American. The only reason a farrakhan can exist is because he has an audience, same with the white racists. I'd like to see them all go to hell! Let the USA truly be the country where all men are created equal with liberty and justice for all. Is it really so shocking to hear a message of hate from a black man towards whites when we have heard similar filth from the kkk for decades? Let's move on, past the hate and insults and lies. Let's fix our broken America.

[DUNBAR]

Former NASCAR official files $250 million lawsuit

By The Associated Press
June 10, 2008
02:07 PM EDT

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nascar/.element/img/2.0/global/clickability/article_save.gif (http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/cup/06/10/former.official.lawsuit/index.html#) http://i.cdn.turner.com/nascar/.element/img/2.0/global/clickability/article_email.gif (http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/cup/06/10/former.official.lawsuit/index.html#) http://i.cdn.turner.com/nascar/.element/img/2.0/global/clickability/article_print.gif (http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/cup/06/10/former.official.lawsuit/index.html#) http://i.cdn.turner.com/nascar/.element/img/2.0/global/clickability/rss.gif (http://www.nascar.com/services/rss/)
type size: + -
A former racing official is suing NASCAR for $250 million, alleging racial and sexual discrimination, sexual harassment and wrongful termination.
Mauricia Grant, who is black, worked as a technical inspector responsible for certifying cars in NASCAR's second-tier Nationwide Series from January 2005 until she was fired last October.
Grant alleged she was referred to as "Nappy Headed Mo" and "Queen Sheba," by co-workers, was often told she worked on "colored people time," and was frightened by one official who routinely made references to the Ku Klux Klan.
In addition, Grant said she was subjected to sexual advances from male co-workers, two of whom allegedly exposed themselves to her, and graphic and lewd jokes.
The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, lists multiple incidents of alleged sexual harassment and alleged racial discrimination beginning when she was hired in January 2005 thru her October firing.
"NASCAR perpetuated, condoned and actively participated in perverted and disgusting sexual conduct designed to demean and diminish [Grant] and the handful of other women employed by NASCAR as officials," according to the suit.
NASCAR spokesman Ramsey Poston said the organization had not yet reviewed the suit.
"As an equal opportunity employer, NASCAR is fully committed to the spirit and letter of affirmative action law," Poston said. "NASCAR provides equal opportunity employment to job candidates and employees without regard to race, religion, creed, age, gender, or any other characteristic protected by law. Personnel decisions are made based on factors such as performance and adherence to corporate policy."
Poston also said NASCAR has a zero tolerance policy for harassment, and will address Grant's claims in its response to her suit.
In the lawsuit, Grant said she complained numerous times to her supervisors about how she was treated, to no avail. On one occasion, Grant said Nationwide Series director Joe Balash, her immediate supervisor, was dismissive of her complaints, explaining her co-workers were "former military guys" with a rough sense of humor. "You just have to deal with it," she says Balash told her.
On another occasion, she alleged Balash participated in the harassment.
"Does your workout include an urban obstacle course with a flat-screen TV on your back?" she claimed Balash asked her during the week of July 28, 2007, while working in Indianapolis.
The lawsuit details a series of alleged incidents:
• Grant was forced to work outside more often than the white male officials because her supervisors believed she couldn't sunburn because she was black.
• While riding in the backseat of her carpool at Talladega Superspeedway, co-workers told her to duck as they passed race fans. "I don't want to start a riot when these fans see a black woman in my car," she claims one official said.
• When packing up a dark garage at Texas Motor Speedway an official told Grant: "Keep smiling and pop your eyes out 'cause we can't see you."
• When she ignored advances from co-workers, Grant was accused of being gay. She also claimed co-workers questioned the sexual orientation of two other female officials.
Grant said she routinely complained to her supervisors. Two weeks after her final complaint, Grant said she was warned during the week of August 18, 2007, at Michigan International Speedway that she had engaged in "conduct unbecoming of a NASCAR representative" and would be fired unless she changed her behavior. She said the warning stemmed from a confrontation Grant had with a track official who stopped her as she passed through a gate to use the restroom.
Roughly two months later, Grant was fired, and NASCAR cited a poor work performance in ending her employment. The lawsuit claims other than a previous warning for using "street" language, Grant had never been disciplined for job performance and routinely received positive reviews.
In addition, the suit claims officials Heather Gambino and Jane Hayes were fired in 2006 for separately complaining about a sexually hostile work environment. The suit also claims former official Dean Duckett, who was black, was reprimanded and ultimately fired in November for using "aggressive language toward a white co-worker."
Among those identified in the suit are Balash, assistant series director Mike Dolan, supervisors Alan Shephard and Dennis Dillon, NASCAR's senior manager for business relations, the human resources director and 17 of Grant's fellow officials. All of the defendants are white.
Grant claims she continues to suffer from severe emotional distress, including depression, anxiety, nightmares, sleep disturbance, crying jags, headaches and gastrointestinal distress since her firing. She's been unemployed since.

http://www.nascar.com/.element/img/2.0/story/flag_checkered.gif



See what I mean?


I truly believe............some of the above happened.....without a doubt.

Is it excessive and a stretch of the imagination...........I doubt it.


That's just the society we live in........some of it worse than others.

[CWSmith]

In support of Jim Don's long, but excellent post, let me say that prior to "retirement", I used to receive some of the yearly reports on petro-chemical and hydrocarbon processing industry reports and I subscribed to several of the industry's periodicals.

A couple of the reports more significant to me were "outlooks" which are the published results of surveys within the industry. They provide insight as to who's doing what, where, and when; providing good insight on the industry and it's immediate future. In 1998 the industry showed a planned 20% decline in investments. This was significant at the time, because our new CEO was demanding a significant increase in market share that year, despite an industry report that showed a cutback on everything from exploration to new equipment purchases.

What struck me odd, was why the industry would be planning a cutback in almost every sector. The economy at the time was pretty good. What became clear later was that such planned cutbacks usually don't have an impact for months or even years.

Sure enough, the rising cost of gasoline and other energy-related shortfalls hit us in the 2000 election year. It was pointed out as part of the mismanagement of the Clinton Administration and therefore helped sweep Bush and Cheney into the Whitehouse. You may recall, that prior to his bid to be Vice President, Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton (a major influence in the Petro-Chem and Hydrocarbon industry and also the prime contractor for military logistics support). And of course, we can't forget that George H. W. Bush was at the time a high-paid consultant to Saudi Arabia's petroleum industries and that as a previous president, he had all of George W's records, military and otherwise, classified! Both would have to have significant influence in the industry and it's planned direction.

What occured of coarse was a successful election that placed Bush and Cheney and the entire American petroleum industry squarely in the White House. The heavy lobbying and election financial support already put much of the U.S. Senate, and Congress in the petroleum industries back pocket.

It doesn't take a genius to see that almost everything done in the last seven years has been of great value to the petroleum industry as a whole.
While we've seen some swings in gas prices, the overall trend has been upwards. During this administration, the industry has been given record tax breaks and has also profitted tremendously from "oversights", allowing millions to be "uncollected". It has also benefitted from a relaxation of EPA rules and the repealing of restrictions that now allows them to explore far more Gulf Coast areas, as well as some interior sites.

Likewise we've been subjected to rolling blackouts along the west coast, with rising electricity costs, corrupted energy officials who laugh as they plan shortages, blackouts, and planned shutdowns that have driven up energy costs. All the while, Bush and Cheney exercise "executive privilege" to keep meetings with the energy industry and their content a "secret".

So now we see ourselves in the last year of the Bush/Cheney regime and surprisingly (or NOT), we see unexplainable record breaking increases in gas prices. Should one begin to think that, even with the slightest chance for a Democrat in the Whitehouse next year, maybe this is a going away present for Bush and Cheney's buddies in the petroleum business?

Yet while companies like Exxon/Mobile have posted continued record profits, it hasn't taken a single step to "ease the pain at the pump". But why should it? Heck, it still owes for the Alaska Oil Spill and certainly no one in the government seems to want to push for closure there either.

So this week we hear Bush whine once again, that we need to drill in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve, even though it wouldn't help us for possibly another decade and even then would only provide a couple of years supply, based on today's consumption rate. And of course we can't turn on television without seeing commercials by the American Petroleum Industry and Exxon/Mobile telling us how much gas we have and how hard they are working to make things better for all of us. Guess it's good to see our gas dollars going for something good, like more propaganda!

CWS

[cpw]

"Gee I wonder how this thread got off topic about Obama, his associations, his beliefs & his wifes beliefs. Thats how they do it, they just blame something on Bush and then change the subject to another topic."


Re-read Post No. 39 for the answer.

Jim
Hey! Post #39 is my post. Gas prices were raised before I posted about them as a reason that I would not vote for Obama.

[NHMaster3015]

As we ponder the price of fuel, remember that a consideral percentage of the pump price is taxes levied by the Fed and State. So does the government really have an incentive to step in?

If the Fed was to set price limits and or profit caps on the oil companies how do you think they would react? The oil companies are responsible to the share holders. When profits begin to slide, share holders begin to dump stock. It would be nice to believe that there's a handfull of bastards at the top, skimming off huge profits but the truth is the profits get spread among the share holders.

Right now, as I am typing this, China, Korea and India have oil rigs drilling 60 miles off the Florida coast. But because of the environmental wacko's, we can't. There is an estimated trillion gallons of oil in Anwar Alaska, but again the wacko's won't let us drill there (save the caribou) There has not been a refinery or a nuke plant built in this country for over 30 years.

These are not the fault of the president, Bush, clinton, Bush again. It's the fault of the congress. Your elected represenitives. Believe me absolutly nothing is going to be done unless you call these fools and let them know how you feel. Stop re-electing the morons.

[Rafael]

Nothing funny about the lies and misrepresentations. I agree that to point out things he himself actually said is a fair way to proceed. I am opposed to all the lies and while I said I would most likely vote for obama, all McCain has to do to get my vote is either agree to secure our borders, deal with the illegals, get our troops back home or do something to fix or economy.

The stupid thing about the lies is that the truth is bad enough, why lie? People just need to go to obama's church's website(the church he belonged to for 20 years) to see what he thinks.

Our troops are not coming home regardless of who gets elected, borders and illegals will not change either. Neither candidate has the political will nor the intelligence to do what it takes to help our economy; but obama said he would raise taxes which is a guaranteed way to damage/destroy our economy.

[NHMaster3015]

You know what strikes me as odd? Reading through this tread it seems like most that have posted to it are conservative minded (democrat or republican) and I see very little support for Mr. Obama and I suspect even less for Mrs. Clinton. So how do these people keep getting elected and by whom? I'd like to think we have a pretty good cross section of America here.

[shup]

Well I do know I'll be having the wife read these posts, might give her a better insight.

shup

[DUNBAR]

The oil companies are buying futures.

[Rafael]

You know what strikes me as odd? Reading through this tread it seems like most that have posted to it are conservative minded (democrat or republican) and I see very little support for Mr. Obama and I suspect even less for Mrs. Clinton. So how do these people keep getting elected and by whom? I'd like to think we have a pretty good cross section of America here.

This place is not a good cross section of America. Most (if not all) people here do things for themselves and dont rely on others, which is why we are attracted to this site. In general, Conservative folk are more the do it yourself type, democrats are more the let the government do it for me types.

[Rafael]

The oil companies are buying futures.

Why shouldn't they? Oil futures seem like a good bet.

[cpw]

Why shouldn't they? Oil futures seem like a good bet.
Actually oil companies are one of the entities that should be buying futures. Futures are designed for producers and consumers, and some futures markets actually limit participation to those who actually make or use the product. Oil Producers (which most of them are) can lock in a price to sell it at; letting them plan better. Consumers (which most of them are due to refining) can lock in a price to buy it at; letting them plan better.

[DUNBAR]

How do you lead this nation.......wait......how do you stand at a podium pronouncing better healthcare when your vices indicate otherwise? (http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=111303)







I used to smoke started at 15.. It took me like a thousand tries befor I finally kicked it.. Havent had one in 2 and a half years... I want a story on abc website.

Angie

[woodenstickers]

As we ponder the price of fuel, remember that a consideral percentage of the pump price is taxes levied by the Fed and State. So does the government really have an incentive to step in?



I may be wrong, but I thought the taxes on fuel were per gallon, not a percentage of the price. I think the fact that the oil syndicates all but own the politicians is a great incentive for them NOT to step in. If there is anything politicians worry about more than getting tax revenue, it's getting campaign money to be re/elected. How many millions are the presidential candidates spending? It's obscene. Until that part of the political process is changed we might as well just bend over and take it.

I have not read Obama's books, but I do know enough of his story to know that the quotes that have him saying racist things are a true representation of how he felt when he was younger, as a bi-racial kid trying to find his identity. If anyone really wants to see how he grew into and out of those beliefs they should damn well read the whole thing instead of quoting things out of context and pretending it means anything. If any one of us were going to be honest about how we grew into what we are today we would have many unflattering things to recall that would not represent how we feel today.

I don't love Obama. He is far more fiscally liberal than I am. Tax and spend. I don't like it. What I also don't like is the modern day republicans still getting credit for Reagan's fiscal conservatism when they have increased spending faster than ANY previous cabinet--including Clinton. Don't tax, but still spend? That is worse. I thought it was the liberals who wanted something for nothing. Running the country on credit ain't conservative, it's greedy and stupid.

And, come on!

Anyone who thinks Obama doesn't know there are 50 states is hopefully just playing dumb. He does say a lot more than "change, hope, change, hope" You can easily look up his proposed policy in depth in nearly the same amount of time it takes to type right wing talking points on a tool forum.:smack-head:

The most upsetting part of this whole damn mess we call a democracy is the way it lures otherwise reasonable people into being intellectually dishonest in order to beat their drum. I hate it. :shakehead:

He is not a Muslim, whether he wears a fricken flag tie pin is beyond irrelevant, he went to a church with an entertaining and occasionally offensive preacher so he could network with thousands of people like many people do, and when it became hot he went on record to disavow him. He does say the pledge of allegiance. Black people, including his wife, have had ample reasons to NOT be proud of this country through out the years, as have we all if we are not blind, and that is PART of being patriotic. In fact, that is what makes us strive to improve. You are proud of what is good and work on what is lacking.

You want to dislike Obama for something? How about that he is practically socialist? That is a reason to not like him. Focusing on the fact that he once wore a traditional head dress from Kenya and that his mother gave him the same middle name as someone who forty plus years later become an infamous dictator? That is insulting to YOUR intellect. Cut that **** out, man!

It's all one big contradiction after another.

The right--religious, but capitalist? Jesus himself said trying to be rich is a sin. Help the poor. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. WTF happens to all of that in the religious right?

The left--tolerance of everything and everybody--unless they don't agree with your idea of what tolerance is. That can't be tolerated. We need to have the government legislate every faction of everybody's life in order to make sure they don't hint at impeding someone else's rights. Works great.:banghead:

It's all BS. It is all a farce in order to steal from us, the producers. The power base in this country, the wealthy, will never relinquish what they have. Are we really gonna fight each other over which liar they offer us to vote for is the most worstest liar? They own them all! They are all in the pockets of industry, not even industry in THIS country necessarily. Millions upon millions to even be in the race and we think we got a chance for those who win to look out for us?

But hey, as long as the news is going to keep blowing up the most sensational mis-speak and treat the run to the most powerful office in the world like they are reporting on a damn horse race...I guess we might as well treat it like any other sports event. Oh! Who is in the lead today in what pole of what demographic after they said what thing that who can pretend they are really insulted by? I don't know what they want to do about social security, but I do know that they are not one of those effin donkeys/elephants!

Go team!!

:help:


Eli

[cpw]

I may be wrong, but I thought the taxes on fuel were per gallon, not a percentage of the price.
I think that is true of the federal tax (something around $.19/gallon), but not of local taxes. Our sales tax is 7.875% where I live, so of the $4.25 we pay for gas another $.31 would be for just the regular state and local sales tax. I wouldn't doubt there are additional special state taxes on gas (but I don't know).

A few years ago I saw a sticker on the pumps at a station down the street from me pointing out how little the owner of the station made and how the rest of it was distributed. You would think that instead of posting only the price with all taxes included like they do now, they would post that price (because doing anything else is probably illegal); but also post how much the government is taking out of your hide/gallon so that people would get mad at them and not just the oil companies.

[woodenstickers]

I think that is true of the federal tax (something around $.19/gallon), but not of local taxes. Our sales tax is 7.875% where I live, so of the $4.25 we pay for gas another $.31 would be for just the regular state and local sales tax. I wouldn't doubt there are additional special state taxes on gas (but I don't know).

A few years ago I saw a sticker on the pumps at a station down the street from me pointing out how little the owner of the station made and how the rest of it was distributed. You would think that instead of posting only the price with all taxes included like they do now, they would post that price (because doing anything else is probably illegal); but also post how much the government is taking out of your hide/gallon so that people would get mad at them and not just the oil companies.

That would be interesting! I also heard that someone wanted them to have to post what country the oil came from and what percentage of your price was going to which government in the middle east or south America. Might make conserving a little less painful as well.


Eli

[Service Guy]

I may be wrong, but I thought the taxes on fuel were per gallon, not a percentage of the price. I think the fact that the oil syndicates all but own the politicians is a great incentive for them NOT to step in. If there is anything politicians worry about more than getting tax revenue, it's getting campaign money to be re/elected. How many millions are the presidential candidates spending? It's obscene. Until that part of the political process is changed we might as well just bend over and take it.

I have not read Obama's books, but I do know enough of his story to know that the quotes that have him saying racist things are a true representation of how he felt when he was younger, as a bi-racial kid trying to find his identity. If anyone really wants to see how he grew into and out of those beliefs they should damn well read the whole thing instead of quoting things out of context and pretending it means anything. If any one of us were going to be honest about how we grew into what we are today we would have many unflattering things to recall that would not represent how we feel today.

I don't love Obama. He is far more fiscally liberal than I am. Tax and spend. I don't like it. What I also don't like is the modern day republicans still getting credit for Reagan's fiscal conservatism when they have increased spending faster than ANY previous cabinet--including Clinton. Don't tax, but still spend? That is worse. I thought it was the liberals who wanted something for nothing. Running the country on credit ain't conservative, it's greedy and stupid.

And, come on!

Anyone who thinks Obama doesn't know there are 50 states is hopefully just playing dumb. He does say a lot more than "change, hope, change, hope" You can easily look up his proposed policy in depth in nearly the same amount of time it takes to type right wing talking points on a tool forum.:smack-head:

The most upsetting part of this whole damn mess we call a democracy is the way it lures otherwise reasonable people into being intellectually dishonest in order to beat their drum. I hate it. :shakehead:

He is not a Muslim, whether he wears a fricken flag tie pin is beyond irrelevant, he went to a church with an entertaining and occasionally offensive preacher so he could network with thousands of people like many people do, and when it became hot he went on record to disavow him. He does say the pledge of allegiance. Black people, including his wife, have had ample reasons to NOT be proud of this country through out the years, as have we all if we are not blind, and that is PART of being patriotic. In fact, that is what makes us strive to improve. You are proud of what is good and work on what is lacking.

You want to dislike Obama for something? How about that he is practically socialist? That is a reason to not like him. Focusing on the fact that he once wore a traditional head dress from Kenya and that his mother gave him the same middle name as someone who forty plus years later become an infamous dictator? That is insulting to YOUR intellect. Cut that **** out, man!

It's all one big contradiction after another.

The right--religious, but capitalist? Jesus himself said trying to be rich is a sin. Help the poor. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. WTF happens to all of that in the religious right?

The left--tolerance of everything and everybody--unless they don't agree with your idea of what tolerance is. That can't be tolerated. We need to have the government legislate every faction of everybody's life in order to make sure they don't hint at impeding someone else's rights. Works great.:banghead:

It's all BS. It is all a farce in order to steal from us, the producers. The power base in this country, the wealthy, will never relinquish what they have. Are we really gonna fight each other over which liar they offer us to vote for is the most worstest liar? They own them all! They are all in the pockets of industry, not even industry in THIS country necessarily. Millions upon millions to even be in the race and we think we got a chance for those who win to look out for us?

But hey, as long as the news is going to keep blowing up the most sensational mis-speak and treat the run to the most powerful office in the world like they are reporting on a damn horse race...I guess we might as well treat it like any other sports event. Oh! Who is in the lead today in what pole of what demographic after they said what thing that who can pretend they are really insulted by? I don't know what they want to do about social security, but I do know that they are not one of those effin donkeys/elephants!

Go team!!

:help:


Eli


I second all this. Well said.

[Masterplumb]

I may be wrong, but I thought the taxes on fuel were per gallon, not a percentage of the price. I think the fact that the oil syndicates all but own the politicians is a great incentive for them NOT to step in. If there is anything politicians worry about more than getting tax revenue, it's getting campaign money to be re/elected. How many millions are the presidential candidates spending? It's obscene. Until that part of the political process is changed we might as well just bend over and take it.

I have not read Obama's books, but I do know enough of his story to know that the quotes that have him saying racist things are a true representation of how he felt when he was younger, as a bi-racial kid trying to find his identity. If anyone really wants to see how he grew into and out of those beliefs they should damn well read the whole thing instead of quoting things out of context and pretending it means anything. If any one of us were going to be honest about how we grew into what we are today we would have many unflattering things to recall that would not represent how we feel today.



(We are not the ones running for the presidency.)



I don't love Obama. He is far more fiscally liberal than I am. Tax and spend. I don't like it. What I also don't like is the modern day republicans still getting credit for Reagan's fiscal conservatism when they have increased spending faster than ANY previous cabinet--including Clinton. Don't tax, but still spend? That is worse. I thought it was the liberals who wanted something for nothing. Running the country on credit ain't conservative, it's greedy and stupid.



(Not to make excuses for the current administrations fiscal policy but they did have to create Homeland Security and other departments, pay for the war in Afghanistan, and wheather you agree or not the war in Iraq.)



And, come on!

Anyone who thinks Obama doesn't know there are 50 states is hopefully just playing dumb. He does say a lot more than "change, hope, change, hope" You can easily look up his proposed policy in depth in nearly the same amount of time it takes to type right wing talking points on a tool forum.:smack-head:

(The 50 states thing doesnt mean much to me but if I was drinking all night and the next morning I was hungover and tired and someone asked me how many states there are I dont think I would get that wrong. They may be talking points but it is what it is Eli. How about not knowing the difference between Memorial Day and Veterans Day? He is trying to be Commander-In-Chief.)



The most upsetting part of this whole damn mess we call a democracy is the way it lures otherwise reasonable people into being intellectually dishonest in order to beat their drum. I hate it. :shakehead:



He is not a Muslim, whether he wears a fricken flag tie pin is beyond irrelevant, he went to a church with an entertaining and occasionally offensive preacher so he could network with thousands of people like many people do, and when it became hot he went on record to disavow him. He does say the pledge of allegiance. Black people, including his wife, have had ample reasons to NOT be proud of this country through out the years, as have we all if we are not blind, and that is PART of being patriotic. In fact, that is what makes us strive to improve. You are proud of what is good and work on what is lacking.

(He was a Muslim, that is a fact. About the flag pin, He now wears it, how come? I thought he was against wearing it. Now that he is catching flack over it he decides to wear it? Is that what he will do WHEN he is president? Will he take a stand on IMPORTANT things? The part about not being proud of our country is bull, he and his wife were given opportunities that many Americans are not given. If She thinks that "in 2008 America is a downright mean country" then I dont want her to be in the white house.)



You want to dislike Obama for something? How about that he is practically socialist? That is a reason to not like him. Focusing on the fact that he once wore a traditional head dress from Kenya and that his mother gave him the same middle name as someone who forty plus years later become an infamous dictator? That is insulting to YOUR intellect. Cut that **** out, man!



It's all one big contradiction after another.



The right--religious, but capitalist? Jesus himself said trying to be rich is a sin. Help the poor. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. WTF happens to all of that in the religious right?

(it has nothing to do with Jesus)



The left--tolerance of everything and everybody--unless they don't agree with your idea of what tolerance is. That can't be tolerated. We need to have the government legislate every faction of everybody's life in order to make sure they don't hint at impeding someone else's rights. Works great.:banghead:

It's all BS. It is all a farce in order to steal from us, the producers. The power base in this country, the wealthy, will never relinquish what they have. Are we really gonna fight each other over which liar they offer us to vote for is the most worstest liar? They own them all! They are all in the pockets of industry, not even industry in THIS country necessarily. Millions upon millions to even be in the race and we think we got a chance for those who win to look out for us?

But hey, as long as the news is going to keep blowing up the most sensational mis-speak and treat the run to the most powerful office in the world like they are reporting on a damn horse race...I guess we might as well treat it like any other sports event. Oh! Who is in the lead today in what pole of what demographic after they said what thing that who can pretend they are really insulted by? I don't know what they want to do about social security, but I do know that they are not one of those effin donkeys/elephants!

Go team!!

:help:


Eli

:smile2:

[woodenstickers]

(We are not the ones running for the presidency.)

~~That doesn't change what I said. I guess we see differently on this topic but I don't expect my candidates to be infallible for their entire lives. I don't think any of the previous candidates have been. I won't even make an example of the last one elected because I know that pisses you off, so enough said. But anyone who has grown into a man of principals has had those principals shaped and forged. Those who can be honest about that process are more interesting and at least SEEM more real. McCain has changed his mind on many issues over the years and I don't fault him for it.






(Not to make excuses for the current administrations fiscal policy but they did have to create Homeland Security and other departments, pay for the war in Afghanistan, and wheather you agree or not the war in Iraq.)

You may not know this but you can take all military spending AND homeland defense out of the equation and it is still true. across the board. The wars are a whole other can of worms. I never did agree with the reasoning behind going into Iraq. The inspectors were right all along. I don't care if Clinton, Mrs. Clinton or Gramps Clinton believed there were WMDs there. Add them into the mess of political nincompoops, I don't defend them for it at all. They certainly didn't get that info based on what the inspectors on the ground in Iraq reported. The evidence given by Powell was believable, but turned out to be cooked. At very best it was complete incompetence that has to date cost us enough to pay for SS for the next 70-80 years. They were wrong about everything from reason to invade, to time it would take, to cost of the operation...and the worst part about it is there were people--experts--telling them the real truth all along and they ignored it. And even when you subtract this enormous debacle from the equation, even when you subtract Homeland security, this has been the most government growth in size and spending in history. They are not conservative. They have you duped.



(The 50 states thing doesnt mean much to me but if I was drinking all night and the next morning I was hungover and tired and someone asked me how many states there are I dont think I would get that wrong. They may be talking points but it is what it is Eli. How about not knowing the difference between Memorial Day and Veterans Day? He is trying to be Commander-In-Chief.)

Look, I see your point here. But we have to be realistic. When you are campaigning all day every day and have every thing you say recorded for months it does not seem that crazy that you might make an error like saying 57 instead of 47. Again, with only our most recent President as example with far less time in front of the cameras has misspoke in similar ways often. I don't think if you asked Obama to name the 50 states he'd have a problem, do you? I also don't believe that Bush doesn't know the difference between Iran and Iraq when he mixed those two up, twice in one statement. We want a capable person in the whitehouse, but they will still be a person.

Memorial day and veterans day. Sunni and Shiate. Which is more important to be clear on? In a perfect world we wouldn't have to ask.





(He was a Muslim, that is a fact. About the flag pin, He now wears it, how come? I thought he was against wearing it. Now that he is catching flack over it he decides to wear it? Is that what he will do WHEN he is president? Will he take a stand on IMPORTANT things? The part about not being proud of our country is bull, he and his wife were given opportunities that many Americans are not given. If She thinks that "in 2008 America is a downright mean country" then I dont want her to be in the white house.)

~~I don't want to just defend Obama, but we have had former drug users, alcoholics etc. as president. I don't care about that. Someone who was a Muslim when he was a kid and not making his own choices? I for one do not care.

The flag pin, he didn't say he was against it, he said he wears one sometimes and not others. He said wearing one because people were pointing it out would make the gesture empty. Now he is wearing it again because he wants to. Is he never allowed to again? I don't get it. The people who put it on like a medal of honor to jump on a bandwagon are more patriotic? Cripes, it shouldn't be worn as an accessory at all according to strict tradition. And in the end I just don't think it is relevant to the job. We can agree to disagree on it's significance.

His wife saying America is "downright mean"? Up to you how you take it and what significance you assign it. I don't take it as a blanket statement. It would be hard to make any judgment on an entire country and it's history and policies in so few words, and I have a hard time pretending it is possible let alone probable. To tell you the truth, I just don't offend that easily. I don't even really care to find out what exactly she meant by it because I would likely agree with some of it, disagree with other parts of it, and not find it the least bit relevant to her husband running the country.

And even more to the point, why the hell do we all become so sensitive to these words? You do not strike me as a shrinking violet MP. Most Republicans, with good reason, are fed up with the "political correctness" police on the left. You are playing the same game, in my opinion, when you act as if these little things are so offensive. Follow it through and tell me what it would mean to have a first lady who said she is proud of her country for the first time in her lifetime because she sees a hunger for change in the population? I'll even suspend the rational part in both of us that KNOWS this statement does not mean she has been ashamed to be an American in every way every moment up until this point. Let's pretend it does mean that. So what will happen if he is elected and she gets in the White house? Something more relevant than the actual policies the candidates may stand for? Tell me because I really want to understand it.



(it has nothing to do with Jesus)

~~It sure does when it comes to abortion, marriage, the war on Christmas, the ten commandments on government property and if Obama is a "Muslim" name. When it comes to the wealthy getting into heaven being as likely as a camel through the eye of a needle, or social programs--not so much. That is pinko stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't follow the Bible. But I don't claim to while only following the parts I like and blatantly shirking the rest of the message either. To me it is just another fine example of the hypocrisy of the political system and how it manipulates people--Americans--in a way that is despicable.

You know who I like this cycle? Bob Barr. He is not perfect by any means, but
we absolutely have to get back some of what we have lost to both the Dem and Repub version of big government.



Eli

[Rafael]

The 1 fact is that he was a member of a racist, anti-white, anti-semitic church for 20 years. He knew that the church of the reverend had these feelings/beliefs. If he wasn't running for pres he would still be a member of this church today.
This alone means any or all of the following:
He is a racist.
He is a fool.
He has incredibly poor judgement.

Does anybody here want a man with these qualities to be our next president?

[oldslowchevy]

He is a fool.
He has incredibly poor judgement.


are we talking about bush????:D



sorry i just couldn't help my self:eek::duck:

[woodenstickers]

The 1 fact is that he was a member of a racist, anti-white, anti-semitic church for 20 years. He knew that the church of the reverend had these feelings/beliefs. If he wasn't running for pres he would still be a member of this church today.
This alone means any or all of the following:
He is a racist.
He is a fool.
He has incredibly poor judgement.

Does anybody here want a man with these qualities to be our next president?

I just don't happen to agree with your statement. It was not an anti white anti semitic church, there was a pastor who held some sentiment in those directions who said some ridiculous things at the pulpit. Wright's recent praises of Farrakhan hardly make the entire church and all of it's members of the same mindset as the Nation of Islam. Obama has never even met Farrakhan.

There was and is a huge community built around the church that Obama wanted access to. Judge him harshly on his political ambitions in this regard and I'll agree. The reverend was and is not the entire church, though, and he gave thousands of hours of sermons that were in no way related to race. I think the reverend is an awful person, but not because of what he has said about AIDS and white people--for that I just think he is a nut job or a devious liar. I'm more disgusted by his ambitions for wealth and actions in direct contradiction to what he preaches.

Look, I don't understand the reason anyone goes to listen to any one of the thousands who tout themselves as "men of God" each week. I have gone to church only a handful of times myself, and honestly, each time I heard something said in a sermon that I absolutely disagreed with, be it political or an interpretation of a passage of the Bible. I don't see how it is possible for anyone to go to any church for 20 years and not hear something that they find objectionable. I can only assume that most people take that with the rest of the experience--the community, the parts of the sermons they do agree with and probably their personal relationship with their God and feeling of spirituality. The vast, vast majority of Church goers in this country do not follow the Churches laws--even the 10 most important ones. If they can go week after week and listen to sermons they obviously must not believe in 100% and reconcile it for whatever reasons they do, why wouldn't Obama? His lack of judgment was mostly in thinking it wasn't going to interfere with his political career to overlook the kooky things coming out of Writes mouth, not overlooking them in the first place, IMO. That is just my opinion though.

Here is what Michelle said about it.


“You know, your pastor is like your grandfather, right?There are plenty of things he says that I don’t agree with, that Barack doesn’t agree with. When it comes to absolute doctrinal adherence, I don’t know that there would be a church in this country that I would be involved in. So, you know, you make choices, and you sort of—you can’t disown yourself from your family because they’ve got things wrong. You try to be a part of expanding the conversation.”

I think it makes sense. I also think the whole Church going thing in the first place was somewhat of a political move on the family's part, that is the choice they made that bothers me the most. I will tell you this though, I think Wright is a scam artist and full of crap, like many of his kind. Whether he believes all the BS he speaks or is just trying to get rich selling books doesn't matter to me. He drives a Porsche and lives in a huge house in the all white suburbs while preaching against these things. He is clearly dishonest. Even so I would probably have rather listened to his "show" than some of the other crap I sat through in the Churches I have attended. He is at least entertaining.



Eli

[Rafael]

His church has honored the racist farrakhan. Any organization that honors such a worthless racist is racist. The church's members did not protest, obama did not object and did not quit over this.
If this whole thing was a white republican that was a member of a white church that honored a KKK grand dragon it would be on the front page of every paper until that republican dropped his bid to be president.

[Rafael]

Also, His church has changed their website dramatically since this whole thing began, it previously posted openly anti-white and anti-semitic lies.

[cpw]

And even more to the point, why the hell do we all become so sensitive to these words? You do not strike me as a shrinking violet MP. Most Republicans, with good reason, are fed up with the "political correctness" police on the left. You are playing the same game, in my opinion, when you act as if these little things are so offensive.
Eli,

I don't agree with your whole post, but just want to say this is a fantastic point. I will say that I think some of it may come out from a frustration as to a perceived double standard (which I do personally perceive a bit). There are times that people on both sides need to grow a thicker skin (not implying Masterplumb is one of them, thinking more of some talk radio hosts).

Charles

[Masterplumb]

Here is what Michelle said about it.


“You know, your pastor is like your grandfather, right?There are plenty of things he says that I don’t agree with, that Barack doesn’t agree with. When it comes to absolute doctrinal adherence, I don’t know that there would be a church in this country that I would be involved in. So, you know, you make choices, and you sort of—you can’t disown yourself from your family because they’ve got things wrong. You try to be a part of expanding the conversation.”





Eli

How about Michelle's college thesis? Did you get a chance to read that Eli?

[Masterplumb]

(We are not the ones running for the presidency.)

~~That doesn't change what I said. I guess we see differently on this topic but I don't expect my candidates to be infallible for their entire lives. I don't think any of the previous candidates have been. I won't even make an example of the last one elected because I know that pisses you off, so enough said. But anyone who has grown into a man of principals has had those principals shaped and forged. Those who can be honest about that process are more interesting and at least SEEM more real. McCain has changed his mind on many issues over the years and I don't fault him for it.

Suprisingly I am not nor was I ever a HUGE GWB fan, so that doesnt piss me off. Yes everyone has skeletons in their closets, but that doesnt mean they shouldn't be examined does it?






(Not to make excuses for the current administrations fiscal policy but they did have to create Homeland Security and other departments, pay for the war in Afghanistan, and wheather you agree or not the war in Iraq.)

You may not know this but you can take all military spending AND homeland defense out of the equation and it is still true. across the board. The wars are a whole other can of worms. I never did agree with the reasoning behind going into Iraq. The inspectors were right all along. I don't care if Clinton, Mrs. Clinton or Gramps Clinton believed there were WMDs there. Add them into the mess of political nincompoops, I don't defend them for it at all. They certainly didn't get that info based on what the inspectors on the ground in Iraq reported. The evidence given by Powell was believable, but turned out to be cooked. At very best it was complete incompetence that has to date cost us enough to pay for SS for the next 70-80 years. They were wrong about everything from reason to invade, to time it would take, to cost of the operation...and the worst part about it is there were people--experts--telling them the real truth all along and they ignored it. And even when you subtract this enormous debacle from the equation, even when you subtract Homeland security, this has been the most government growth in size and spending in history. They are not conservative. They have you duped.

You cant say that the world is a better place w/out Saddam Hussein, well .......maybe you can!



(The 50 states thing doesnt mean much to me but if I was drinking all night and the next morning I was hungover and tired and someone asked me how many states there are I dont think I would get that wrong. They may be talking points but it is what it is Eli. How about not knowing the difference between Memorial Day and Veterans Day? He is trying to be Commander-In-Chief.)

Look, I see your point here. But we have to be realistic. When you are campaigning all day every day and have every thing you say recorded for months it does not seem that crazy that you might make an error like saying 57 instead of 47. Again, with only our most recent President as example with far less time in front of the cameras has misspoke in similar ways often. I don't think if you asked Obama to nam